IMPORTANT!! Things to know about the Garmin Astro

[huntindog]

Part one

Knowing that the soon to be approved Garmin only has 48 codes, I was looking in the manual to see what happens when the inevitable conflicts arise at trials.

The manual says that if you turn on the reciever and it detects more than one collar it will pop up a message about the conflict, and then give step by step instructions on how to change codes.

It sounds so easy that a caveman could do it.

It doesn't say what will happen if the dog is already gone (wearing the collar) when the conflict occurs.

Does the unit simply not show any collar location?

Does it swap around to the different collar loacations?

Does it pick the strongest radio signal?

I will be out this weekend and intend to do some experimenting on this.

But it does seem to me that this could be a serious achilles heel to the Garmin's use at field trials.

I bet at most trials that there are at least a half dozen tracking collars transmitting at once. a couple of dogs running and a couple of handlers getting ready to go, and a few collars that simply didn't get turned off, because the handler forgot, or is running again soon so didn't bother.

As more people get Garmins,(and from what I'm hearing it will happen fast) the conflicts will happen with increasing frequency.

No big deal right? Simply follow the instructions and pick a new code, right?

What if after checking your collar, turning the reciever off and then giving it to the judge.... Another collar with the same code gets turned on somewhere on the grounds?

Maybe it's someone who doesn't understand how it works and the need to check for conflicts, or someone who who knows but forgot and is running a dog on another course.

At any rate it could be a big problem should a dog with a conflicted collar get lost.

Of course this could happen with the telemetry units (trackers) as well.

But with 5000 frequencys it is unlikely. And in the event one does discover a conflict with another collar, then it can be dealt with, as the collars cannot change frequencys.

I do not know how the other units that have recently come onto the market handle this, so it could be a problem for them as well.

At any rate, after this coming weekend I will report the results of my experiments.

Part two


Well I learned some interesting things this weekend,

First, the Astro has 50 ID codes. I thought it was 48, but that was because as you add (marry) collars to your handheld reciever, it takes those numbers away. I have two collars, so it only went up to 48 for me.

I started off trying to get both of my collars on the same ID.

I turned on the handheld and Rusty's collar and set it to ID # 1. I then turned off Rusty's collar and turned on Talon's collar. I then scrolled thru the ID list and noticed something kinda strange. There were several missing numbers on the list. After a little experimenting I found that with Rusty's collar on ID #1 that numbers 11,21,31, and 41 disappeared from the list. and with Talon's collar on ID#2 that numbers 12,22,32,and 42 disappeared. This seems to indicate that the more collars married to a handheld the more IDs that will disapear, making less availible to resolve conflicts. Not a big problem since most people won't have more than 1 or 2 collars.

So after getting sidetracked with that I went back to the original objective. With Rusty's collar off I tried to put Talon's collar on ID# 1 as well. It couldn't be done as ID#1 was gone from the list. I then removed Rusty's collar from the handheld's dog list. Then I was able to put Talon's collar on ID # 1.

So now I have 2 collars on the same ID#s. Talon's (married to the handheld) is on and working perfectly. Rusty's(not married) is off.

I then turned off the handheld (as if to hand it to a judge) and then turned on Rusty's collar. (as if someone else on the grounds turned on a collar with the same ID#) I then walked about 35 yards away but still had direct eye contact with the collars. I then turned on the handheld as if Talon was lost. A message appeared that said another collar was interfering with Talon's collar, and do I want to pick another ID#. I choose yes and a message appears that the handheld cannot communicate with Talon's collar. I walk towards the collars, while retrying. At about 15 yards I was able to change IDs and resolve the conflict.

With a little more experimenting I found another quirk.

If I was close to both collars when I turned on the handheld it was briefly (up to about 30 seconds) able to read Talon's collar accuratly before getting confused. This happened at ranges up to about 15 yards.

From this I surmise that it may be possible to be conflicted with another collar, even with your bracemate and not know it. If you just turn it on and it reads OK, then turn it off to hand to the judge... And your bracemate does likewise...

I only had one handheld so I couldn't confirm this for sure.

This is what happened to me with my equipment. You should confirm this with your equipment. (legal disclaimer)

[rapid fire]

I think radio control airplane flyers have a similar problem with controllers. This could probably be fixed with a dry erase board that you registered your collar ID on.

[Sharon]

Very interesting. Even though the Garmin is not allowed in Canada, I'll be interested to read what you discover.

[huntindog]

Part Three
I got together with a friend and his Garmin today to do a little more testing.
First I wanted to see if it really was possible to marry a collar to more than one handheld. It is, and it's very easy.

Next we put one of his collars on ID #2, and one of my collars on #2.

We then turned on both collars and both handhelds. My handheld sent out a conflict alert pretty fast. His handheld seemed to work fine for an amazingly long time.
probably 3-4 minutes. When it finally did send out a conflict alert we stumbled onto another problem.

When the Astro signals a conflict, it asks if you want to change the collar ID. The yes button is highlighted as the default answer. So you press yes, and the handheld tries to communicate with the collar. Unless you are very close it will fail. You then can retry as many times as you want. Eventually upon seeing that it wont work you will go on to the next screen. It will ask if you want to continue tracking your dog. WARNING!! The NO button is highlighted as the default option, pressing this button causes the handheld to lose all communication with the collar! The only way we found to fix it was to delete the dog from the dog list and remarry the collar and handheld. This requires that the handheld and collar touch each other. Impossible if the dog is lost.

Pressing NO when the handheld asks if you want to change IDs causes the handheld to continue tracking a collar. My hand held tracked my friends collar instead of mine a lot.
His handheld seemed to be better able to stay locked onto his collar. But it did eventually conflict as well.

The differences in our units could be any number of things. Where we had our collars, battery strength, individual performance variations between units etc.

[MTO4Life]

Very interesting. Even though the Garmin is not allowed in Canada, I'll be interested to read what you discover.

Awwhhh, Sharon, you're not going to let that stand in your way are you? I run it here in Ontario and it is fantastic! Great tool to have. I haven't been hunted down yet, so who knows? We'll see, but until then, I'm happy to use it!!

[Neil Mace]

I think I understand what you are saying, and while I have never tried to "trick" my Astro into not working, I have used it in training and in AF Open trials with other Garmins without any problem. I always make sure my hand held is getting a proper signal from whatever collars I am using before turning the dog loose, and if there is another collar conflicting with it, it gives the message, and I just let in pick another frequency. I never pay any attention to what number that may be.

Now in American Field, we have never had more than 3 dogs with the Astro collars on (one lost and two at the line) so in an AKC multi-stake trial it might be the problem you suggest, I just have not seen it.

You are going to find some other glitches with the unit, make sure the hand held's compass is calibrated, keep it away from metal and level, always make sure it is married to the collar before turning a dog loose. Also in some terrain, the collar's range is about 1 to 1 1/2 miles without the long range antenna. You can buy one of two, one to carry in your saddlebag, another for the car rooftop, They are worth the $50.00.

And you can outrun the signal on a 4-wheeler.

Now that it has (or will be) approved, after needlessly wasting a year, I look for the other companies to become competitive with even more advanced systems, that hopefully will take your concerns in to consideration. If we had more reliable cell phone coverage, there are a number of new tracking devices that could be modified to a dog's collar. Inexpensive to buy ($300), but expensive to operate (up to $50.00 a month on some models), at least for now. But with cell phone technology it is a moot point for trial dogs, my cell phone only works at about half the trials I attend.

Neil

[huntindog]

I think the Astro will end up being a victum of it's own sucess.
When there aren't very many of them at an event, the probability of a conflict is realtively low..... The benefit likely exceeds the risk.
When they get as common as Trackers are now (at least at trials I frequent) there will be more problems.

Neil... I think you may have missed part of the problem when reading my post. If ANY collar is turned on within range of a handheld, then it could cause a conflict. It doesn't matter whether it is on the dogs running the brace, a lost dog, a dog on another course, or just a collar back in camp. The main problem is a lack of knowledge among trialers on just how this new technology works,,,,, and it's limitations. Trialers are used to just strapping on a tracker and calling it good. On the rare occasion that a conflict occurs with a couple of Tracker collars.. Once it is discovered, it is known to the owners of the collars and that conflict CANNOT change.
The Astro with only 50 codes that can change at any time will require constant vigilance from ALL Astro owners. ALL the time not just when they are running their own dogs.

As far as the compass. Maybe I've been lucky. I calibrated it once. When I got it back in December. I use it a lot, and it's always been accurate. I have read a lot about others compass problems though.

There are already two new GPS collars on the market. I don't have a lot of info on them yet, but they appear to easily meet the current AKC weight rule. They are basically stripped down units without a lot of the extra features that make the Astro so easy to cheat with. Because of this they should be easier to use for the non technology minded. I don't know if they have conflict issues or not.I think the collars and handhelds are matched sets. No ID#s to change.

And the big plus is they are about half the price of the Astro

http://www.radiofence.com/gps-dog-track ... racker.htm

http://www.fourallpaws.com/product/ROAM ... _Pets.html

I hope these links work. If not , cut and paste to your browser should.

[LSKGSPs]

Just as a point of clarification.

I've been working with Martin for months with the Garmin units. I should say Martin has been working for months and I have been listening to his concerns. A few weeks ago he brought up a couple issues that really perked my ears up. So, I called Garmin direct....not once but three times along with the exchange of numerous emails in hopes of receiving answers to some of the issues.

Before going on, let me say that the Garmin Reps were very cordial, professional and tried to help. It may have been they did not understand my question or I may not have understood their answer.

But each time I took their response to Martin.....he would say......."Yes, but............" And 100% of the time his "but" was followed by a question that negated the Garmin response.

Again......before going on, let me say I love my Garmin. It has found my dog. I think it is great. I would not turn my dog loose without it. And Martin feels the same way.

Martin's concern is not only for his own dogs, but for all of our dogs at a field trial or hunt test. Frankly, I've never known anyone to put so many hours into field testing a product to find out what works and what does not work.

Bottom line is that today we did not try to "trick" the Garmin. We walked through numerous situations that could and will happen at a field trial and/or a hunt test. We did nothing unusual. And what we found........much to my surprise (but not to Martin's) it was very easy to find yourself in a situation where the unit stopped tracking your dog and there was nothing you could do about it.

To simplify........Suppose I turned my dog loose at the start line with her collar set on Comm Channel 10. Ten minutes into the brace I lose the dog, ask the Judge for my Unit to find her. I turn the receiver on and get a "Conflict Alert." I can't track my dog? Why? Because a handler back at camp or the start line turned his collar on that was also set to Comm Channel 10. I can't change the Comm Channel on my dog's collar.......and I don't know who else is set to "10". I will never find my dog in this case by using the Garmin.

For matters of full disclosure...........What Martin and I have written, reflects only the results of our testing with our units.

In no way are our words meant to reflect on the Garmin units in a negative way. Garmin designed this fabulous system......NOT FOR FIELD TRIALS OR HUNT TESTS. Garmin designed them for hunters and their beloved hunting dogs. Thank goodness....it is a fabulous system.

It is US who pushed for the adoption of the units for use by the various bodies that govern our events. Now, that they have been or soon will be approved, it is/would be grossly unfair to nit pick the units for their weaknesses in an environment they were not specifically designed for.

They are the "cat's meow" for their intended and designed for use. Yes, they can and probably will work for field trials and hunt tests in most situations. But, be aware that in a situation where there are many Garmin units...........it is possible to lose your dog despite your best intentions. The Garmin Manual points these issues out clearly.......but heck who reads manuals??????

In this case Martin did........and in doing so he did us all a favor.

Know the system........practice, practice, practice changing the Comm Channels and how to marry your collars to the receiver. Don't wait until you get to The Line with your dog......check your receiver........see a "conflict alert" on your screen..... It will be too late at that point to try to figure things out.

LSK

[Neil Mace]

Martin,

I believe the GPS collars you listed are made by the same manufacture, just different retailers.

From my real trial and training experience, I think the problems you are anticipating are more theoretical. You do understand that we have been using the Garmin for nearly a year in American Field Open Trials? So my response is based on actual experience. As I said, you may be right in a trial with multiple similtanious stakes, we will just have to see and hope for the best. My guess is that there will be a number of people continue to use their telemetry units, or nothing. My experience does not lead my to believe that there will be 20 - 30 Garmins at a trial, all turned on at the same time.

About the compass thing, the only time I have had a problem is if I move a few 100 miles, I have used mine form SD to TX to AR to TN to MS to AL to KY. Again, this is not theoretical, but real. Interestingly, it does not seem to matter if the movement is East - West (which I suspected) or North -South (which I did not).

I am not trying to discount your efforts, just sharing what I have found.

Neil

[mm]

I had purchased the other unit mentioned Romeo and it took months to get when I got it I got it set and put it on the dog it worked good two or three times and then stopped working. I called the place where I purchased it and they said there was a bad batch and offered to send another I opted for a refund as I was dissapointed after such a long time to get a non working unit. I dont know if they got all the bad ones back so beware.

As for the garmin I was planning on buying one. Is it ok in a hunting siduation? Has anyone had any problems with it when they are alone. Can other things interfear with it such as cell phones or other GPS?

It seems the problem discussed here could be managed if everyone at a trial worked togther on what number the units are on.
mm

[taxidermy]

I'v had few prob. with mine [owner error ], but, what i do like is being able to see my hunts !!!
I'm just a hunter and only used my dc30 for one year.
The red is the dog and yellow is me.

[Vanguard]

VERY GOOD POST!!!!!


Guys this is VERY important to know probably should have the admin sticky it or something. I used to fly RC Heli's and this was the exact same problem we had when out at the flying field. I'll definitely be making sure that I check mine each and every time.

THANKS!!! for the heads up.

[huntindog]

Martin,

I believe the GPS collars you listed are made by the same manufacture, just different retailers.

My experience does not lead my to believe that there will be 20 - 30 Garmins at a trial, all turned on at the same time

Neil

I think that they may be the same manufacturer as well. But it is two more units availible now. I predict that more will be along shortly.

Actually, having all of the collars at an event on all of the time would be a better way to go. Everyone should be able to see conflicts and resolve them.

The larger problem lies in the turning on and off of collars and ID# changes that can cause conflicts with dogs already out in the field.

The part that we have to understand is that the Astro was not designed to be turned off until needed. It was designed to be used by hunters who would leave them on the entire time the dog was running. When left on it will alert us to conflicts as they occur, and we can then fix the problem before a dog is lost. When the unit is turned off, it cannot tell us if a conflict is occuring. We would only find out after a dog is lost.

There is a ton of talk about Astros out here. Everyone seems to want one, clubs are holding raffles for them etc. So it shouldn't be long before there are a lot of them at the trials.

[Neil Mace]

Martin,

I gave some more thought to the problem, the NFTCA (the folks that run the National at Ames) when they approved the Garmin for clubs holding qualifying trials, suggested having the judge set the frequency before turning the dog loose. The reasoning was to curb cheating, but it might help with this also. If they got a conflict signal, they could reset the unit.

I was against this at first, thinking that not many judges would be able to do it, but it might be one more answer,

Neil

[huntindog]

I had purchased the other unit mentioned Romeo and it took months to get when I got it I got it set and put it on the dog it worked good two or three times and then stopped working. I called the place where I purchased it and they said there was a bad batch and offered to send another I opted for a refund as I was dissapointed after such a long time to get a non working unit. I dont know if they got all the bad ones back so beware.

As for the garmin I was planning on buying one. Is it ok in a hunting siduation? Has anyone had any problems with it when they are alone. Can other things interfear with it such as cell phones or other GPS?

It seems the problem discussed here could be managed if everyone at a trial worked togther on what number the units are on.
mm

The Astro was a little slow out of the gate as well. I wasn't one of the first buyers, but I know of some.

The Garmin has zero issues when used in a hunting situation. It is the greatest thing since sliced bread.

And yes I believe that the problem could be managed if everyone is familier with the issues and their units.
That is what this thread is all about.
Trialers have been used to a different technology that didn't have these issues and need to be aware of them.