COI Questions

Elroy's Bandit · Post by **Elroy's Bandit** » Sun Aug 16, 2009 5:12 pm

I am "green" when it comes to breeding and such, and have been reading up and reserching many areas of pre-breeding preparation etc. I had a couple things which jumped out at me and would like some input. When looking at a particular pair (M & F), obviously the COI results are not scientific results , only a statistical average, as the COI program does not use DNA information. Is this correct? Also, the results are all based on information entered, so if the user inputs incorrect or skewed information, one would assume the results would be off/incorrect as well. Is it imparrative that both the male and female "entered" dogs have a specific and equal amount of generations back? Is this how the COI is established? Does a dog that shows up multiple times automatically increase that dogs percentage in the litter results, or does it mattter how far back or top/bottom? Is it better to be at the high end or low end of optimal COI ?
I am probably missing something, but if anybody could help me to understand the process, i would appreciate it. Thanks

Bill L.

Post by **kninebirddog** » Sun Aug 16, 2009 5:24 pm

http://www.czerwonytrop.com/inb/index.p ... =ok&lng=en

basically it is the potential of alelles from a dog to hopefully have those desired traits

lvrgsp · Post by **lvrgsp** » Sun Aug 16, 2009 5:30 pm

Well Bill, your probably gonna get some mixed reviews here on this.....I'll give you my take......
First off COI is of no good at all unless you can be sure the ped is 100% DNA'd correct, I like running COI's, I also like what correct linebreeding can do for you.
COI's are a statistical look at what individual dogs contribute within the breeding of that pedigree, so yes an equal and accurate pedigree for both sire and dam are required.
Most pople here are gonna tell you run a 10 gen COI. To me there have been to many running 10 gen COI's and in my opinion using it to help market there pups, ie....17-22% coi on this dog over 10 gens, you know what go back 5 gens and in my opinion you will have a better indication on what and who is going to contribute to the breeding.
As far as high or low COI, kinda depends on what your wanting from the breeding, thats a pretty broad question overall, I don't mind seeing a COI of say 15 - 20 over 5 gens, and that is plenty tight, as long as you have an idea as whats behind it....There again a low COI on a dog that has all the traits you desire in a breeding program can help add that vigor you may need.......

If it's what you have in the works......I like it alot and see no problem with it at all.....that's my opinion.....

Chip

zzweims · Post by **zzweims** » Sun Aug 16, 2009 6:04 pm

COI is helpful if the information is acurate and you either do or do not want to do a line breeding. If you want to do a linebreeding, you don't really need a COI program (though they are helpful) to know the common ancestors. On the other hand, if you want to do a complete outcross, COI programs come in very handy. You may not see the same names in a 3-5 generation pedigree, but that does not mean that the dogs are not closely related. I recently did a niece-uncle breeding and some folks in the weim world were upset about it. But since both dogs had a low COI (the female was rated 0.002) the rating of the litter was considerably lower than comparable litters where there were no common ancestors in eight generations.

Aline
http://zzfarms.com

snips · Post by **snips** » Sun Aug 16, 2009 8:49 pm

See, Rick and I both believe the more you have the same dogs line up 10 generations back really does matter.

Post by **kninebirddog** » Sun Aug 16, 2009 9:34 pm

that link i provided in the first reply will do up to 8 generations and one would really be surprised at how a dog from way back the homozy when on both dam and sires back ground will bring it up potential more then one would think

if you try it be sure you enter all the same dogs in ped exactly the same
i tell people to use all caps and forget the titles to lessen the chances of typo errors

i think it can have a variance in a program but the breeding also has to be mroe then just about two pedigrees brought together you still need to have a healthy dam and sire that possess the desired traits to carry on what one wants to have in a pup

Post by **ezzy333** » Sun Aug 16, 2009 9:43 pm

I don't see just what the COI is telling you that you can't see from looking at a pedigree. And I agree with Rick and Brenda, If you like the line of your dogs then the more you see any one dog showing up closeup in the pedigree, but also as far back as you can find no matter how far back, then the better your chances of producing pups that will carry those same qualities. And that is all COI is telling you except someone tried to make it hard to understand.

Ezzy

lvrgsp · Post by **lvrgsp** » Sun Aug 16, 2009 10:01 pm

snips wrote:See, Rick and I both believe the more you have the same dogs line up 10 generations back really does matter.

Brenda, I won't disagree with you or Rick, but for me know it does not do me any good to run a 10 gen COI if I don't know what traits that dog 10 gens back was passing on? I won't disagree that it should intensify the qualities if the dog shows up 15 times in a 10 gen ped. I wish I could go back 10 gens in my dogs peds and see what contribution each made, some folks can go back that far I guess......

Chip

tommyboy72 · Post by **tommyboy72** » Sun Aug 16, 2009 10:04 pm

Just out of curiousity since I am not a breeder or kennel owner just a hunter, how close is considered too close to be breeding a female and male i.e. father/daughter, brother/sister, half brother/half sister, uncle/niece? I only have one female and one male pointer which come from completely different lines but I am just asking out of curiousity.

Rich Heaton · Post by **Rich Heaton** » Sun Aug 16, 2009 11:49 pm

Problem with doing your study and research all your breeding is paper dogs,,, got to know more about them than that. Going back any further than 3 generations IMO is a waste of time,,,, back 10 generations yea of course they all line up they almost can't help but not to.

tommyboy72 wrote:how close is considered too close

Just got to remember,,, when breeding up close,,,, you get the best qualities but ya get all the worst qualities too,,,, "they" say that's where the great ones come from,,, but I wouldn't want to see the percentage that didn't make.

Elroy's Bandit · Post by **Elroy's Bandit** » Mon Aug 17, 2009 6:40 am

Thanks for all the great responses....not sure if I am any more clear, or more confused...

. Chip, you were right , it's like asking "what is the meaning of life" and expecting a finite answer. The one thing I get is that my original thinking might not be all that far off. Ezzy & Rich , I see where you are coming from, and to know the dogs and what they bring is more important than paper. This was what got me thinking about this in the first place as I tend to ask lots of questions and listen to a lot of different people who I consider "authorities" ...and I heard things from one end of the spectrum to the other. If you really like both dogs and know them well. If you know the parents and /or grandparents well and what traits they bring to the table, this should carry the bulk of the weight. Now this is where I look and ask, what if after that you see the same dog(s) showing up in the pedigree in numerous places, you run the COI and the percentage is high ? Does that then mean you absolutely should not breed these two dogs? Is that an indicater that you could potentially be breeding "too close"? It almost appears that you can produce result you want, or at least "tweek" it just by using 5 generation, 7 generation, 10 generation in your calculation......Is this accurate? Thanks again for all the great insight.
Bill L.

dan v · Post by **dan v** » Mon Aug 17, 2009 6:41 am

basically it is the potential of alelles from a dog to hopefully have those desired traits

COI doesn't discern between "good" and "bad" traits...it's more a "number" that provides information, expressed as a percentage, about commonality of ancestors.

If the COI number is high, in relation to the breed average, then the number represents an effort of a breeding program to accentuate traits.

The problem lies in that most of what breeders seek is phenotype, traits that can be observed. But when the COI is high you are also accentuating those unseen things....like genotype recessive traits.

snips · Post by **snips** » Mon Aug 17, 2009 7:21 am

Well, in most pedigrees today, past 3 generations probably does not matter because it is so varied that nothing matches up. But in a linebreeding program things should really show up in force back there. And I agree with Ezzy here, what does a COI tell you that you cannot just eyeball in a pedigree? It is just data.(or someones hipe to sell puppies).

lvrgsp · Post by **lvrgsp** » Mon Aug 17, 2009 8:47 am

Elroy's Bandit wrote:If you really like both dogs and know them well. If you know the parents and /or grandparents well and what traits they bring to the table, this should carry the bulk of the weight. Now this is where I look and ask, what if after that you see the same dog(s) showing up in the pedigree in numerous places, you run the COI and the percentage is high ? Does that then mean you absolutely should not breed these two dogs? Is that an indicater that you could potentially be breeding "too close"? It almost appears that you can produce result you want, or at least "tweek" it just by using 5 generation, 7 generation, 10 generation in your calculation......Is this accurate? Thanks again for all the great insight.
Bill L.

Good questions Bill....And I agree with with what has been said here for the most part.....of course I have my own opinions....

So you know the parents and g-parents you like what they bring to the table, and you go back as you said 5, 7 , 10 gens and the COI percentage is HIGH...first I would ask what is high? That will vary greatly from person to person.......MY OPINION I like the 12-16% range, I think when you get up to the 20-30% COI's you had better "bleep" well know what you have, or your about to find out what ya got and a good possibility your gonna have to cull....
I have spent hundreds and hundreds of hours talking to the old Moesgaard guys and going over their linebreeding and peds and what they did would scare off 90% of most breeders, they culled alot, but also produced some exceptional dogs and producers. Now in saying that, they ran into some genetic defects that in my opinion really was the demise of that line. They also for the most pasrt did not run COI's they would use what they call percent of blood......I think that was there downfall in latter yeras, they were holding onto the papers and not so much flesh, and not being as selective within there breeding practice..There are some old Moesgaard dogs that were carrying 87% blood of Moesgaards IB, now if you breed that tight for that long your gonna have alot of traits similiar to the one dog you are linebreeding on, so you better like him......

So yes a 12-16% COI over say 5 or 10 would not bother me and then you tweak it how you want to. I prefer a linebred dog for my own reasons...
JUST MY OPINION,
Chip

Post by **kninebirddog** » Mon Aug 17, 2009 9:10 am

i should say hopefully going for those traits one desires and yes you will get good with the bad ....
Can anyone tell me the trick to breeding a pup with teeth that aren't as sharp

This is the info from an 8 gen I did with the link http://www.czerwonytrop.com/inb/index.p ... =ok&lng=en this is on the litter of pups I have on the ground right now. AT the bottom of the report it which wouldn't copy and paste well it as it also generates a Pedigree to go with the info reported on top . The front page of the link explains the inbreeding.
I just find it very interesting a way to play with virtual puppies I included a pic of a 5 generation ..though the report is on 8 generations hopefully it does give a general idea of how the numbers come into play on paper as to what is behind a pup genetically and Sure there is a lot to factor in mother nature and that dam and sire both are healthy and have desired traits and the potency to pass on those more desired traits also the environmental factor as even this ped with no regards to the dam and sire would be just a pretty frosting on a stale cake

One thing I do have in this litter is very active pups and they build wise are pretty uniformed..and what I can say for sure about all this....I have a litter of sharp snaggle tooth bratty pups

http://s165.photobucket.com/albums/u74/ ... s%20weeks/ password is showme

Coefficient for CHUCKBOO PUP
• Inbreeding: 0.0730590820312 (7.30590820312%)
• AVK (ancestor loss coefficient): 44.7058823529%
The computation has been done for 8 generations

Inbreeding contribution by acenstor
MICRODOT 0.0234375 (2.34375%)
BEANS BLAZE 0.01904296875 (1.904296875%)
LOBO\'S SUGAR BABE 0.005859375 (0.5859375%)
SHOLDERBRAND ACRES NOBLE 0.0078125 (0.78125%)
DAJO\'S BAN-DEE JILL 0.001220703125 (0.1220703125%)
DAJO\'S CINDY LOU 0.000244140625 (0.0244140625%)
SCIPIO SPINKS 0.00537109375 (0.537109375%)
BAN DEE 0.0091552734375 (0.91552734375%)
DAJO\'S PERFORMIN\' PUMPKIN 0.00030517578125 (0.030517578125%)
BRANDY\'S BUD 0.0001220703125 (0.01220703125%)
BAZOOKA\'S BRANDY 0.00048828125 (0.048828125%)

Percent of blood by ancestor
MAXWELL\'S BLUE BY YOU II 50
K NINE\'S PEEK-A-BOO 50
MAXWELL\'S MAXAMILLION 25
CHEYENNE VI 25
REDLINES TEQUILA SMOKER 25
TUCALOLTA CREEK PICABO 25
APACHE XXVI 12.5
MAXWELL\'S LUCKY CHOICE 12.5
LOBO\'S BOSS MAN 12.5
LOBO\'S SCIPIOS DREAM 25
TEQUILA\'S JOKER 12.5
SMARTEYES MICROBEAN 12.5
LOBO\'S MAHOGANY BLAZE 12.5
TUCALOTA CREEK ALI-BYE 12.5
CHUBASCO II 6.25
RINGNECK\'S RAZZ MA TAZZ 6.25
MICRODOT 25
LOBO\'S BLAZN SUGAR COOKIE 18.75
BEAUGARDES GOLDEN TEQUILA 6.25
WWW BAN DANDY 6.25
HIGHORSE PASSIN FANCY 6.25
LOBO\'S BLAZIN CANDY MAN 6.25
LOBO\'S BLAZN GYPSY GIRL 6.25
MASKED SHOSHONI WAR CHIEF 6.25
CANDY\'S LUCKY PENNY 6.25
SHADY\'S LIL CLIPPER 3.125
SPOTLIGHT II 3.125
JAFKEN MAXX SAVINGS BONDS 3.125
JAFKEN COPPER FIRE STAR 3.125
MICRO CHIP 12.5
SCIPIO\'S SUPER JET 12.5
BEANS BLAZE 19.53125
LOBO\'S SUGAR BABE 12.5
BEAUGARDES GOLDEN NUGGET 3.125
SCARLET BRANDAE 3.125
WWW FANCY\'S LITTLE TUFFY 3.125
WWW BJ BAN-DEE 3.125
LOBO\'S COTTON CANDY 6.25
SCIPIO\'S LITLE CHICK 3.125
MAGNUM\'S MASKED MAN 3.125
SHOSHONI WASHAKIE SISKEDE 3.125
RENEGADE\'S KANSAS KID 3.125
CHESANY\'S SAWTOOTH RIM RUNNER 1.5625
BBB DELTA DREAM 1.5625
POWELL\'S BUZZSAW 1.5625
BBB SCIP-A-JIGGER O\'BRANDY 2.34375
RALEE\'S ONLY BEGINNING 1.5625
RALEE\'S DREAMBOAT ANNIE 1.5625
JAKE THE DUDE 1.5625
JESSABELLE STAR FIRE 1.5625
SCIPIO\'S MISTER CHIPS 12.5
JETTA BROWN 12.5
SHOLDERBRAND ACRES NOBLE 16.015625
GEM STATE JILL 9.375
DAJO\'S BAN-DEE JILL 5.46875
LA MANCHA\'S GOLD NUGGET 1.5625
LADY OF LA MANCHA 2.34375
CARRIER FARMS HAPPY DAZE 1.5625
BELINDA BLUE 1.5625
GIDEON OF RICHMONT 1.5625
WWW FANCY FRIJOLE 1.5625
WWW DOCTOR BILL 1.5625
CASEY\'S RASCAL 1.5625
BANDEE-BRITTS RED JINX 3.125
DAJO\'S CINDY LOU 3.515625
CASEY\'S CHIKAMIN 1.5625
SCIPIO\'S WILD CHERRY 1.5625
CINNABAR SHOSHONE WAR CHIEF 1.5625
MAGNUM MAGGIE II 1.5625
BUCK HUNTER 1.5625
SHOSHONI\'S WETAMOO ZITKALA SU 1.5625
R-LUCKY BRANDY\'S BAZOOKA 1.5625
PRINCE\'S WHITE TAIL 1.5625
CHICK\'S BLAZE\'N SAWTOOTH SAM 0.78125
LITTLE BAY BREEZE 0.78125
BAY MEADOWS TRUCKER 1.171875
SHOLDERBRAND BAN-DEE BARONET 0.78125
TAL VEZ PATSY 0.78125
JEMAR\'S SCIP N JIGGERS 1.171875
JULAR MERRY MANDOLIN 1.171875
BAJO\'S BAN-DEE JILL 0.78125
HYBRITTIN\'S LITTLE RISK 0.78125
RALEE\'S WHT LACE N PROMISES 0.78125
RALEE\'S TRAVELING TRAVIS 0.78125
RALEE\'S REDHOT RYTHEM N BLUES 0.78125
KING OF THE HILL 0.78125
O\'GINGER BABY 0.78125
J R RED MAPLEWOOD 0.78125
LADY OF MCDUFF 0.78125
SCIPIO SPINKS 17.578125
FUDGE SUNDAY 5.46875
SCIPIO\'S REVA RUBY 7.03125
BAN DEE 17.578125
BRANDIE OF SHOLDERBRAND ACRES 7.8125
SCIPIO\'S DEVILISH MEG 3.90625
DAJO\'S PERFORMIN\' PUMPKIN 2.734375
AUSSIE BLUE OF KEMPSEY 0.78125
MIKE OF AC 1.5625
GABRIEAL VICTORIA 1.171875
SEWALL\'S JEFF 0.78125
JIMP\'S KANDY DE BRITT 0.78125
PINTO TYKIO 0.78125
LADY AMBER IX 0.78125
PETIE OF RICHMONT 0.78125
CHEETA OF RICHMONT 0.78125
BROUGHTMARS JIVER DE CAMPO 1.171875
W AND WW\'S LITTLE FRIJOLE 0.78125
WWW DOCTOR MAC 0.78125
WWW LUCKY LADY 0.78125
MINI BOB 0.78125
LAMB\'S TINKER OF BROUGHT-MAR 0.78125
SCIPIO SPNKS 0.78125
LADY BRITT OF BRENTWOOD 1.5625
BRANDY\'S BUD 1.953125
SHENANGO CHEYENNE LOU 0.78125
SCIPIO\'S DEVISH MEG 0.78125
TIGARS JOCKO 0.78125
JUCHIR\'S TROOPER JILL 0.78125
DAJO\'S BOUNCIN BEBE 0.78125
PERRY\'S RUSTIC PRINCE 1.5625
CINNABAR ROC\'S BELLE FILLE 0.78125
HANEY\'S HOLIDAY II 0.78125
LADY HOLIDAY II 0.78125
PEPPER\'S PRINCE 0.78125
SACAJAWEA SHOSHONE 0.78125
CINNABAR\'S AMI ROC DE\'EDWARDS 1.171875
BUFFY VON KRAHOVEN 0.78125
HI-SPIRIT BAZOOKA\'S PISTOL 0.78125
GRINGO\'S CINNAMON SUE 0.78125
COLORADO\'S JUMPING GYPSY 0.78125
DAJO\'S SHENANGO CHEYENNE LOU 0.78125
SCIPIO\'S LITTLE CHICK 1.171875
JACQUE OF CONNIE 0.390625
LEEWAY SMOKESTONE JUNE BUG 0.390625
DAJO\'S BOUNCIN\' BEBE 0.390625
DAJO HIDE\'N SEEK 0.390625
NN_33_G8 0.390625
NN_34_G8 0.390625
NN_35_G8 0.390625
NN_36_G8 0.390625
RUSTIC PRINCE REBEL 0.390625
PERRY\'S RUSTIC ZIP 0.390625
J.J.\'S JOGGER OF ST. JAMES 0.390625
OJIBWA SMOKIN-TOKEN CIMMRON 0.390625
NN_41_G8 0.390625
NN_42_G8 0.390625
NN_43_G8 0.390625
NN_44_G8 0.390625
NN_45_G8 0.390625
NN_46_G8 0.390625
NN_47_G8 0.390625
NN_48_G8 0.390625
DAJO\'S PERFORMIN PUMPKIN 0.390625
BAZOOKA\'S BRANDY 5.859375
W-HUME\'S HOLLIDAY CINDY 5.078125
TARO\'S CHIBBY 1.5625
TRIUMPH TWIGGS 1.953125
MAGNUM\'S DELTA BELLE 2.734375
KAY CEE BANDIT 7.03125
PRINCESS GINGER VII 6.640625
CHEYENNE\'S BUZZ 3.125
KATHY\'S ROSE 2.734375
FRIARS TUCK\'S WISH 1.953125
NN_95_G8 0.390625
NN_96_G8 0.390625
TARO\'S TWIGGS 0.390625
PRINCESS VII 0.390625
NN_127_G8 0.390625
NN_128_G8 0.390625
RILEY\'S JIM QUINLAN 0.390625
PRINCESS JEAN 0.390625
AC\'S RED 0.390625
I-VEE DOLL FLY 0.390625
CASSIE II 0.390625
JOEL\'S COPPER JACQUES 0.390625
PINOAK SUE 0.390625
GRINGO DE BRITT 1.171875
RUSS-BOY\'S DANDY DUCHESS 0.390625
BREWERS BIG BOY 0.390625
DAUGHTER OF MOFLA 0.390625
BIG JAKE VI 0.390625
LADY STU-PED 0.390625
PACHY OF RICHMONT 0.390625
CARLA OF RICHMONT 0.78125
DAPPLE TONI OF RICHMONT 0.390625
RUSKE\'S MISS SWEET PEA BROWN 0.390625
JFFERY\'S TAUREAU 0.390625
WWW PINTO BEAN 0.390625
GRINGOS TUMBLEWEED SAL 0.390625
DOCTOR TJ 0.390625
STUART\'S AUTUMN GLORY 0.390625
DAN\'S SON BOBBY 0.390625
MISS MINI REBEL 0.390625
LAMB\'S BUSTER OF BROUGHT-MAR 0.390625
KATHY\'S BUZZ 0.390625
NN_191_G8 0.390625
NN_192_G8 0.390625
DEARBORN\'S BRENTWOOD BRITT 0.78125
RUSTY ROSE BUCKSHOT 0.78125
DAJO\'S SHENANGO CHEYENNE LOU 0.390625
SHENANGO VALLEY DINGO 0.78125
JACOLET CHEYENNE SOUIX 0.78125
HONEY\'S TIGAR 0.390625
PETITE FEMME DE LA BOIS 0.390625
LUND\'S TROOPER 0.390625
JUCHOIR\'S ERMISON TRILL 0.390625
DAJO\'S MAJESTIC BOMBER 0.390625
MANDY CEDARWOOD BEAUTY 0.390625
TUWAY\'S KAYMORE JACK 0.78125
BARB DE WITT 0.78125
CINNABAR D\'ADVANTE 0.390625
HANEY\'S HOLIDAY 0.78125
GINGER HOLIDAY 0.390625
JAN-ARTS DESIREE DOLL 0.390625
PENNY\'S PEPPER 0.390625
MISS OLYMPIAN SAX 0.390625
DE MADISON KING 0.390625
GARE-MARS HAGGER 0.390625
JAMIE\'S LIGHTNING 0.390625
COPPER JILL OF EDWARDS 0.390625
SIR DUSTIN BRITTAN 0.390625
DIMONDAL\'S CINDERELLA 0.390625
HOLLIDAY BRITT\'S BAZOOKA 0.390625
PRINCESS SHABURR ROCARO 0.390625
RUSS-BOY\'S DANDY DUCHCESS 0.390625
LOCHINVAR DES COLLINES 0.390625
TAMMY DES ROCHEUSES 0.390625
EMILE\'S PRINCESS 0.390625

BigShooter · Post by **BigShooter** » Mon Aug 17, 2009 10:00 am

Folks are probably getting tired of me relating these types of genetic questions to humans but for some it's a little easier to think about. A litter of eight pups is like a family with eight children. How much do each of those children look alike, how similar in size are they, some need glasses some don't, do they all die of the same disease at the same age, are they all equally as gifted in athletics and academics, are they equally motivated or driven to succeed etc., etc. , etc. ? What do they have in common & how do they differ? Same parents but different traits in just one generation.

In this human family of eight, based upon observations of each human baby at one year of age - pick the best of the brood - and tell me what that child will pass along in a future breeding.

COI is all about the likelihood traits (good & bad) from certain ancesters are more likely to be passed to pups ... but which good traits & which bad ones have actually been passed along already?

I'd rather have a five generation detailed, accurate & complete description of the good & bad traits possessed by each dog in a pedigree and look for how often each of those traits show up.

dan v · Post by **dan v** » Mon Aug 17, 2009 2:05 pm

Mark, the problem with comparing human breeding to that of canines..is lots of times in the dog breeding scheme, a grandfather is bred to a granddaughter...half siblings are bred together.....first cousins twice removed

. How many times has anybody ever said they got married, and had children, because of how their traits complimented each others'?..and how their kids should be an improvement phenotypcally speaking.

BigShooter · Post by **BigShooter** » Mon Aug 17, 2009 2:39 pm

Wyndancer wrote:Mark, the problem with comparing human breeding to that of canines..is lots of times in the dog breeding scheme, a grandfather is bred to a granddaughter...half siblings are bred together.....first cousins twice removed . How many times has anybody ever said they got married, and had children, because of how their traits complimented each others'?..and how their kids should be an improvement phenotypcally speaking.

Absolutely right, it's an imperfect analogy. Except for a few redneck jokes, humans for the most part are out-crossed so the analogy is limited to being helpful in pointing out that a particular stud & dam will produce offspring that do not inherit identical traits from the parents and from all ancestors. In other words you can have multiple dogs with identical COIs that vary significantly from one another. The follow up point is that COI provides the statistical chances of inheriting traits from ancestors but the dog with a COI of 13% is not 13% of everything that one progenitor was, nor does the dog have a 13% chance of being everything that particular ancestor was.

Now if you could mark a trait or traits of a particular ancestor and follow traits being passed on through the generations of offspring in the pedigree down to the stud or dam that'd be worth following and why we talk about pre-potent dogs that seem more likely than others to pass along to their offspring the traits we desire. COI is a way of mirroring this activity 'cause only the old timers that watched every dog in one of your pedigrees could tell you what each dog was like and what he or she passed along to the offspring.

briarpatch · Post by **briarpatch** » Thu Aug 20, 2009 6:08 am

I am "green" when it comes to breeding and such, and have been reading up and reserching many areas of pre-breeding preparation etc. I had a couple things which jumped out at me and would like some input. When looking at a particular pair (M & F), obviously the COI results are not scientific results , only a statistical average, as the COI program does not use DNA information. Is this correct? Also, the results are all based on information entered, so if the user inputs incorrect or skewed information, one would assume the results would be off/incorrect as well. Is it imparrative that both the male and female "entered" dogs have a specific and equal amount of generations back? Is this how the COI is established? Does a dog that shows up multiple times automatically increase that dogs percentage in the litter results, or does it mattter how far back or top/bottom? Is it better to be at the high end or low end of optimal COI ?
I am probably missing something, but if anybody could help me to understand the process, i would appreciate it. Thanks

Bill L.

Based only from what I have read ..

A COI is basically a guage based on numbers to evaluate when a linebreeding has become so inbred it is an unhealthy mating equal to a brother/sister mating or father/daughter mating
if doing an complete out crosss a COI is really not needed.
again based soley on reading and my poor understanding of things
When line breeding a litter if the litters 10 generation COI reaches .25 or greater then it will have the same amount of DNA from both sides as if you did a complete outcross of 2 different breeds Father/daughter or sister /brother mating.

SO basically if your 10 generation COI reaches .25 or greater it is like you mated brothers and sisters or father to a daughter.
even though the parents are no where near that close in relationship the amount of DNA recieved though linebreding relatives has brought the blood so close that it is equal to a father/daughter mating

Why 10 generations are needed, not 5 not 7 not 8 as some suggested..
again based on reading basically the simple answer is...the more generations that far back ,the way the COI works the less DNA is recieved the further back because more and more dogs are added to the pedigree so after 10 generations it is very little a single dog will contribute to the caculation even if it seen numerous times that far back. SO THE CLOSER UP IN A PEDIGREE a dog is seen the more it effects the outcome in the numbers of a COI.
But if the same dog is located numerous times over say an 5 gen pedigree than chances are he has many common ancestry that could drastically effect the COI guage and make the numbers alot higher if you went back a few more generations. after 10 generations though has very little effect on the outcome of the COI scale even if the same dog is seen numerous times ..

This is where the stactic starts many entire breeds have higher COI's than .40 and still are doing well. However some lines have been reportedly lost to inbreeding depression. That is why it is said linebreeders should use COI's
Inbreeding depression leads to smaller litters, smaller dogs, loss of bone mass etc. according to the scientists and can eventually lead to the end of the line.

As to your question NO a COI doesnt use DNA information. it is a mathmatical scale that is used to caculate the amount of DNA recieved from a linebreeding. And is used to give you a guide as to when a line is becoming to inbred and therefore gives you the breeder a chance to outcross and keep the numbers in your favor of not developing inbreeding depression within your line.

AS to this question "Also, the results are all based on information entered, so if the user inputs incorrect or skewed information?"

YES the results would be skewed if you input the wrong information.
the further back in the pedigree the less it will effect the numbers if the information entered is incorrect.

the closer up in the pedigree the more it effects the numbers..

SO it comes down to do you believe this is needed
many beleive it useful, many believe it is a waste of time..
I personally believe its another tool in the shed for possibly increasing the odds of having better quality pups why not use it, if your a linebreeder or considering a mating that has a lot of relatives in it.. its out there its cheap and fun to research the lines that far back..
and I certainly wouldnt consider a father/daughter mating as a quality mating or a sister/brother mating as a quality mating, heck if I got a guage to help it sure cant hurt..

once again the above was taken from stuff I read I am not an expert by any means

Elroy's Bandit · Post by **Elroy's Bandit** » Thu Aug 20, 2009 6:33 am

Briarpatch,
Thanks for your take. I guess the reason I posted this in the first place is I got to thinking about the COI and how it works. I have listened to many "authorities" in the breeding end of this game , and saw a wide range........no opposite ends of the spectrum on the subject. I agree with the staement, "another tool in the shed" and is, in my opinion, a very accurate assessment. But it is not a scientific , zero tolerance , spot on indicater by any means. I will say that all the responses have been great, and have provided a much clearer picture of the whole COI / DNA thing. And I am more confident than before that with outcrossing, COI software might be a helpful tool, but really not something that should be used as the "end all" for decision making on a particular breeding.
Bill L.

BigShooter · Post by **BigShooter** » Thu Aug 20, 2009 8:47 am

briarpatch wrote:As to your question NO a COI doesnt use DNA information. it is a mathmatical scale that is used to caculate the amount of DNA recieved from a linebreeding.

For clarification "...from an individual in ... a line breeding".

Again, to be clear though, because of the way genes are sorted & stacked offspring do not receive identical DNA material from ancestors, otherwise littermates would always be identical.

ACooper · Post by **ACooper** » Thu Aug 20, 2009 9:31 am

What are everyones thoughts on father to daughter or full brother/sister breedings, it isnt done much with bird dogs but in some breeds it can be common.

BigShooter · Post by **BigShooter** » Thu Aug 20, 2009 10:11 am

Personally I wouldn't consider brother/sister but might be willing to do a father daughter but that would really depend upon how the pedigrees and the COI line up from the father-mother. I'd also want some pretty complete info about recent ancestors and any negative issues that have popped up in the prior lines.

dan v · Post by **dan v** » Thu Aug 20, 2009 10:44 am

If the brother/sister were the produce of an outcross breeding...then yes, I'd consider a pup from a brother/sister mating.

briarpatch · Post by **briarpatch** » Thu Aug 20, 2009 11:19 am

Would I consider it yes for about as long as it took me to finish reading the add for the puppies ..I would consider it, a father/daughter or sister/brother FOR ABOUT 2 seconds and then move on to a quality breeding with less likelyhood of developing hereditary defects or inbreeding depression...

but thats just me

ACooper · Post by **ACooper** » Thu Aug 20, 2009 11:36 am

briarpatch wrote:then move on to a quality breeding with less likelyhood of developing hereditary defects or inbreeding depression...

but thats just me

Breeding very tight doesn't mean the litter wont be quality, and how many people have actual first hand experience with a line bred tight enough for long enough to see actual depression of the line? Everyone has heard that so and so did, but who has actual first hand experience with it?

Setting traits is done by breeding tight, both good and bad, most people do not have the "ability" to bred tight and cull hard.

But I do agree that it would depend on how tightly bred the line already was.

Dave Quindt · Post by **Dave Quindt** » Thu Aug 20, 2009 12:29 pm

Wyndancer wrote:If the brother/sister were the produce of an outcross breeding...then yes, I'd consider a pup from a brother/sister mating.

Dan,

I've been thinking about this for the last few hours, as your comment was a bit of a head-scratcher.

Why does it matter how tight the breeding that produced the parents (the brother/sister) is? Full sibling breeding are inherently tight to begin with, I'm thinking that whether or not the parents were "outcrossed" (say a COI of under 5%) vs "limbered" (say a COI of 15%) is probably statistically irrelevant. Of course, if the parents themselves were the products of a brother/sister breeding that would have a significant impact, but short of that I don't think it really matters.

Then again, I have a dog whose sire was the product of a brother/sister breeding that wasn't linebred on anything particular. The sire of my dog was the only dog from that litter remotely "breedable" (and even that's questionable). There was one female in the litter that had a head like a Rottie.

WIth a breed like yours, you may have to do these things in order to move things forward. In breeds like GSPs or Brits or Labs, with such a huge gene pool out there, I struggle to understand where it's an acceptable risk. Labs are a great example of the where the supposed benefits of inbreeding are called to the table; very little inbreeding (linebreeding, whatever you want to call it) goes on yet they have consistent litters with predictable results. The best bred field labs of today are light years ahead of where they were 50 years ago, yet this by in large was accomplished without any sort of serious inbreeding efforts.

JMO,
Dave

lvrgsp · Post by **lvrgsp** » Thu Aug 20, 2009 2:51 pm

ACooper wrote:What are everyones thoughts on father to daughter or full brother/sister breedings, it isnt done much with bird dogs but in some breeds it can be common.

Father x Daughter yes I would, as long as it was a line of dogs I knew some things about......more than that it would have to be where do I go from there with that cross? It would have to be a continued breeding within the line, or an outcross to bring some vigor in, or another linbred dog within the breed...
Full Siblings?.......MMMMM that would really depend on what I wanted to set as far as the genes, and with the understanding that with that sibling cross, me personally I would go outside to gain what I was lacking, and when you do that your gonna lose the uniformity in the litter, but you may bring the reproductive vigor back to the line......alot of variables there to think of.....

ACooper wrote: Breeding very tight doesn't mean the litter wont be quality, and how many people have actual first hand experience with a line bred tight enough for long enough to see actual depression of the line? Everyone has heard that so and so did, but who has actual first hand experience with it?

Setting traits is done by breeding tight, both good and bad, most people do not have the "ability" to bred tight and cull hard.

But I do agree that it would depend on how tightly bred the line already was.

I don't have first hand knowledge in the fact of breeding the line, but I do have knowledge of two bitches I was going to buy within that line had some serious issues with low reproduction in the litters from the females, sterility in the males and monochrid in multiple males, and yes this was a long line of linebreeding, and as for the monochrids it was thought to have been bred out of the line 20 years prior only to see it resurface. That line within a line so to speak is all of gone for the most part due to inbreeding depression...
Just My opinion,
Chip

Ditch__Parrot · Post by **Ditch__Parrot** » Thu Aug 20, 2009 11:44 pm

I always find these discussions interesting.

ACooper wrote:Setting traits is done by breeding tight, both good and bad, most people do not have the "ability" to bred tight and cull hard.

CH Erin's Bad River http://www.erinkennels.com/pedigrees/30.pdf

snips wrote:Grandfather to granddaughter is fine if you have no "like" faults. Doubling up on any fault when doing a breeding like this will only intensify it.

Yawallac wrote:
Doubling up on any fault when doing a breeding like this will only intensify it.
BUT ...you can also get rid of it.

http://www.gundogforum.com/forum/viewto ... ng#p150976

ACooper · Post by **ACooper** » Fri Aug 21, 2009 6:32 am

I do also Sadie, people have a lot of opinions about what is acceptable and what isnt. If you are producing healthy animals its not too tight.

dan v · Post by **dan v** » Fri Aug 21, 2009 6:38 am

Dave,

Yeah, we think kinda funny in my chosen breed.

Anyway, I sat down at the computer and did a hypothetical brother/sister breeding in which two unrelated lines were cross. (unrelated as far as Gordon Setters goes.)

The brother/sister have a 9 gen COI of .126% (that's a percentage not a coefficient), so that surely indicates an outcross breeding.

The 10 gen COI of the offspring of the hypothetical mating have a COI of 28.16%. Now granted, that's a big number but in the scope of field bred Gordon Setters, not unheard of....really not high at all, given the limited genepool of field Gordons.

When somebody asks if I would consider a pup from a brother/sister, and I say yes I would consider one, a couple things are going to have to happen. It's going to have to prove it's self as a quality bird dog, and have physical attributes that I was looking for. Then assuming I got a female from the breeding, now I have to chose on which side of the pedigree to breed off of.

Really though, I'm a fan of assortative mating.

ACooper · Post by **ACooper** » Fri Aug 21, 2009 6:47 am

lvrgsp wrote:
I don't have first hand knowledge in the fact of breeding the line, but I do have knowledge of two bitches I was going to buy within that line had some serious issues with low reproduction in the litters from the females, sterility in the males and monochrid in multiple males, and yes this was a long line of linebreeding, and as for the monochrids it was thought to have been bred out of the line 20 years prior only to see it resurface. That line within a line so to speak is all of gone for the most part due to inbreeding depression...
Just My opinion,
Chip

Sounds like a classic example of line depression. My point is actual inbreeding depression is rare, as most people dont breed tight enough for long enough, but as your example points out, it definitly occurs. It normally takes many many generations to see, a higher occurence of defects than average assuming you start without any known major defects upclose in the line.

solon · Post by **solon** » Fri Aug 21, 2009 7:37 am

I thought I would step in and clarify a few points with respect to COI. There are lots of good articles online about the pros and cons of inbreeding and the definition of COI and what it means.

http://www.fuzzywunkle.net/inbreeding.htm

http://www.netpets.com/dogs/healthspa/b ... 20Genetics

Basically, the COI is a probability term, calculated from a pedigree, that tells you the statistical average of what percentage of alleles, or other segments of DNA that may or may not be actual genes, like regulatory regions, that will be identical through common descent from the same ancestors in the top and bottom lines of the pedigree. Thus these alleles will be homozygous and identical. The COI gives a measure of how much homozygosity is from common ancestors, over and above the average level of homozygosity that exists in that breed. It is a measure of the degree of inbreeding.

This has real meaning when you consider that a genome has over 20,000 genes and many more regulatory regions. It has little significance for a given simple gene or control region, since it is only a statistical value applied to large numbers. A probability term when applied to large numbers can give a fairly good estimate with a small variance. The COI assumes random distributions of alleles at meiosis, so breeders' selection for given traits will distort the result.

Now as to the calculation of the COI, each dog that is in the top and bottom line contributes based on the generation it is in, the further back the smaller the contribution,( a power of 1/2 to the nth generation) AND the COI of each dog figures in the calculation. Thus a 6 generation pedigree could calculate to a low COI, when the COI is actually very high if one went back further, like 10 generations. Consider this example, which I saw in an actual Llewellin pedigree somewhere. Say in generation 8, all the pairs were the same. That is in the 8 generation there were only 2 dogs, instead of 512 for an outbred pedigree. After that different pups were mated such that from 6 generations on, there were no common ancestors. The COI would be zero for a 6 generation calculation, when in fact, all those 6 generation ancestors were highly inbred and the 8 generation COI would be high.

The consequences of a high COI may be the likelihood that a simple recessive disease trait will show up, or it may be much more complex and not readily apparent. The whole thing is complicated by the fact that for some alleles, heterozygosity is better than homozygosity for either allele. For most species, complete homozygosity, which means parthenogenic reproduction is lethal. Excess homozygosity or inbreeding depression usually shows up by small litter sizes and loss of fertility. If you are not seeing that, then the inbreeding is probably ok. If you see that, then outcrossing will fix it.

Solon

lvrgsp · Post by **lvrgsp** » Fri Aug 21, 2009 2:35 pm

Now as to the calculation of the COI, each dog that is in the top and bottom line contributes based on the generation it is in, the further back the smaller the contribution,( a power of 1/2 to the nth generation) AND the COI of each dog figures in the calculation. Thus a 6 generation pedigree could calculate to a low COI, when the COI is actually very high if one went back further, like 10 generations. Consider this example, which I saw in an actual Llewellin pedigree somewhere. Say in generation 8, all the pairs were the same. That is in the 8 generation there were only 2 dogs, instead of 512 for an outbred pedigree. After that different pups were mated such that from 6 generations on, there were no common ancestors. The COI would be zero for a 6 generation calculation, when in fact, all those 6 generation ancestors were highly inbred and the 8 generation COI would be high.

Solon

I agree with what you said......the above statement for a 6 gen, an 8 gen, or a 10 gen pedigree is all true, as long as you can tell me that every breeding in the ped is correct.....

That in itself is another topic......

Good post Solon....

Chip

Elroy's Bandit · Post by **Elroy's Bandit** » Fri Aug 21, 2009 5:07 pm

lvrgsp wrote:I agree with what you said......the above statement for a 6 gen, an 8 gen, or a 10 gen pedigree is all true, as long as you can tell me that every breeding in the ped is correct..... That in itself is another topic......

Chip, that was part of my question, and what got me going on this subject. How do you know the information you are entering (breeding info within the ped) isn't flawed??
Bill L.

postoakshorthairs · Post by **postoakshorthairs** » Fri Aug 21, 2009 5:17 pm

Chip, that was part of my question, and what got me going on this subject. How do you know the information you are entering (breeding info within the ped) isn't flawed??
Bill L.

I don't know that you can...especially since we know there have been litters registered with incorrect parents..intentionally or unintentionally...in the past, and especially if your going back 10 generations.

Post by **ezzy333** » Fri Aug 21, 2009 7:24 pm

postoakshorthairs wrote:
Chip, that was part of my question, and what got me going on this subject. How do you know the information you are entering (breeding info within the ped) isn't flawed??
Bill L.
I don't know that you can...especially since we know there have been litters registered with incorrect parents..intentionally or unintentionally...in the past, and especially if your going back 10 generations.

You may never know for sure but you have to assume they are accurate till proven otherwise. I don't think I could be part of a group where I though everyone was crooked till proven straight. Just not the way I am wired. Plus I think from my experience that there is a lot more talk about people cheating than there actually is. Too many times that is just sour grapes from the losers and there is nothing behind it.

Be the first to admit I know nothing about the GSP pedigrees.

Ezzy

lvrgsp · Post by **lvrgsp** » Fri Aug 21, 2009 8:08 pm

Elroy's Bandit wrote:
lvrgsp wrote:I agree with what you said......the above statement for a 6 gen, an 8 gen, or a 10 gen pedigree is all true, as long as you can tell me that every breeding in the ped is correct..... That in itself is another topic......
Chip, that was part of my question, and what got me going on this subject. How do you know the information you are entering (breeding info within the ped) isn't flawed??
Bill L.

You really can't Bill without DNA, you can increase your odds, by going to breeders you know and trust, that have remained as honest as possible, lets face it accidental breedings by pros, hunters, amatuers etc... have happened, and they'll happen again, but we need to be doing DNA on all our dogs in my opinion, the pups should go to new owners dna'd already or at least send the kit with them, it would help solve some accidental breedings and cut down some on the crap breedings.....there again now, that is just my opinion....

I guess you could lay out that 10 gen ped and start going through the dogs and asking the breeders.......

Chip

Elroy's Bandit · Post by **Elroy's Bandit** » Fri Aug 21, 2009 8:31 pm

postoakshorthairs wrote:You may never know for sure but you have to assume they are accurate till proven otherwise. I don't think I could be part of a group where I though everyone was crooked till proven straight.

ezzy333 wrote:You really can't Bill without DNA, you can increase your odds, by going to breeders you know and trust, that have remained as honest as possible,

Just to clarify- My reason for asking about the potential for error wasn't to be accusatory , or to point at dishonesty by any means, but more to solve my quest for what I feel in my mind is a long debated area in the world of breeding; How much should you depend on results of these programs? in your decison making on breeding to a particular mate. In the past, I have heard some people talk as though the results weigh heavily in their decison making , and others who feel it can be a "a useful tool in the breeding process" but not the "end all". After actually digging into this, I realized it's not a scientific as it appears on the surface, so I was curious as to what you guys thought. The comments which have been posted here have given me a new understanding of this process as well as some interesting takes on the issue as well.
Bill L.

Dave Quindt · Post by **Dave Quindt** » Fri Aug 21, 2009 9:05 pm

Elroy's Bandit wrote:

Just to clarify- My reason for asking about the potential for error wasn't to be accusatory , or to point at dishonesty by any means, but more to solve my quest for what I feel in my mind is a long debated area in the world of breeding; How much should you depend on results of these programs?

Bill,

I make it real easy on you.

Make a list of the following dogs:

1. The dogs you own.
2. Every dog in the pedigree of the dogs you own.
3. Every GSP Hall of Fame dog.

You know what all of those dogs have in common? They were the products of breedings where COI played NO PART in deciding which male and female should be bred. No part at all.

COI is a tool designed for analyzing inbreeding across large numbers of generations (10+) where it's impossible to look at a pedigree and see what's going on.

COI has been "bleep" by the sporting dog community to give desk jockeys who can't/won't/are too lazy to spend time in the field looking at dogs, their parents, and their offspring a supposed tool to evaluate potential breedings.

COI is a way to measure inbreeding, yet when you look at all of the GSP national champions, leading producers and hall of fame dogs, you'll find that very few were actually linebred at all.

The best breeders out there, regardless of breed, spend their time focused on actual dog flesh. Us wannabe's spend our time focused on pedigrees and inbreeding depression and linebreeding strategy and the rest of the b.s. we've told ourselves is important.

I am convinced that if we took every pedigree of every GSP alive today, threw them on into a pile and lit them on fire, our breed would be better off for it. It would force folks to go back and focus on the dog, as a performer and producer, without all of the prejudices and preconceived notions we have. It would also reduce internet chat by 90%.

JMO,
Dave

Elroy's Bandit · Post by **Elroy's Bandit** » Fri Aug 21, 2009 9:13 pm

Well put Dave!!

But I gotta be honest, the "internet chatter" can be very intersting at times. :roll:

Bill L.

briarpatch · Post by **briarpatch** » Fri Aug 21, 2009 11:02 pm

Well now Dave,

thats funny but rediculus the COI has been used by many from dogs to pigs to cows to horses to mice, to sheep you get the idea... and scientifically proven to produce better, larger litters with offspring that have more homozygosity.. and almost anyone that has taken the time doing one also has spent some time looking at dogs in the field..

is it the end all solution for picking the right sire and dam NO but can it help eliminate some from the list of potential sire or dams and narrow down the field, If you linebreed and choose to use it..

AND FOR THIS QUOTE

1. The dogs you own.
2. Every dog in the pedigree of the dogs you own.
3. Every GSP Hall of Fame dog.

You know what all of those dogs have in common? They were the products of breedings where COI played NO PART in deciding which male and female should be bred. No part at all.

How in the world would you know what the breeders in my dogs or anyone esles pedigrees used to make a decision on what dogs to breed they very well may have used the COI to rule out potential mates or go in favor of the sire and dam on that HOF dog or any of the dogs in a pedigree including the dogs I own.. Did they soley use it to make a decision on a mating, most likely not, but it may have influanced their decision on which sire and dam to go with or not to go with...

"No part at all" apparently you talked to every breeder in everyones pedigree and determined how that breeder came to the conclusion of which sire and dam to use..

I am sure they used the ones that were the good in the field for them, but they may have elliminated a potential sire or dam due to the COI....

Just some more of my 02% of the internet chat
Dennis

Dave Quindt · Post by **Dave Quindt** » Sat Aug 22, 2009 12:01 am

briarpatch wrote:
How in the world would you know what the breeders in my dogs or anyone esles pedigrees used to make a decision on what dogs to breed they very well may have used the COI to rule out potential mates or go in favor of the sire and dam on that HOF dog or any of the dogs in a pedigree including the dogs I own.. Did they soley use it to make a decision on a mating, most likely not, but it may have influanced their decision on which sire and dam to go with or not to go with...

Yes Dennis, I can say that with complete certainty, as COI calculators were not available to the general public until about 10 years ago. So all of those great dogs and great litters that were bred in the first 100 years of this breed were done with COI calculations.

thats funny but rediculus the COI has been used by many from dogs to pigs to cows to horses to mice, to sheep you get the idea... and scientifically proven to produce better, larger litters with offspring that have more homozygosity.. and almost anyone that has taken the time doing one also has spent some time looking at dogs in the field..

Show me an empirical study that shows how COI has been used to better sporting dogs. You can't, because it doesn't exist. Even the breeders who inbreed their dogs today are still breeding best to best, so you can't figure out whether or not the quality of their offspring are due to inbreeding, or in spite of inbreeding. How is it that performance Lab breeders have succeeded in improving their breed, breeding consistent litters and identifying quality producers without the use of inbreeding?

You can babble on all you want about homozygosity and inbreeding coefficents, but it's all meaningless because we have NO CLUE how complex traits like point and hunt and nose and desire are genetically constructed, much less inherited. Other than simple recessive traits and diseases, the sporting dog breeder has no use for discussions about individual gene and gene inheritance. We're interested in trait inheritance, of which we know virtually nothing when it comes to the traits important to sporting dog breeders.

I am sure they used the ones that were the good in the field for them, but they may have elliminated a potential sire or dam due to the COI....

Any breeder of any level of success surely doesn't need a COI calculator to understand when a pedigree is too tight; a simple look at a 5 generation pedigree can tell you that. If you need a COI calculator to tell you how much inbreeding is going on and can't figure it out yourself, you are looking at far too many generations to be of any meaning.

Most of the great breeders of our breed over the last 50 years struggle to find the on switch on a PC, and you think they are all using COI calculators?

briarpatch · Post by **briarpatch** » Sat Aug 22, 2009 6:34 am

Dave,
I must at least respond to some of your babbling (you have baited me in like a large striper to a lure)

Wrights COI is a mathematical calculation it has been around since 1922 I believe, No you don't have to own a computer to do it..Does owning a computer with a program make it much simpler YES and much more available to people that are not so great in math like myself Sure..But someone with the formula and the know how can do it on a piece of paper..SO NO this is not some magical invention in the last 10 years..

Are there other ways of producing linebreedings yes, were many of the greats in our breed produced without it Yes again I am sure.
Are there other formulas to use for linebreeding that has been around for many many years Yes
Are there many theorys as to the best way to get the best pups Sure

Is it something we can use if we wish to help guide us in our breeding Yes
Can people like you still choose not to use it sure thats completely up to you..

The analogy you are using is the same like asking should I do hip certifications or heath certs..I am sure OFA wasn't around x-raying hips 100 years ago in this breed..and we still ended up with a lot of dogs with excellent hips, So I guess under your analogy we shouldn't do health Certs either to attempt to weed out bad genes in the pool, even though the technology is easily available today heck our forefathers didn't use x-ray devices to determine if a dog was breedable.. So why should we using your advice..Just breed the best to the best and hope it works out if it don't just cull the pups and try again..under your theory thats how its been done for hundreds of years why change now?

anyway you win I give up
you are probably way smarter than Mr. Wright in the below link about breeding
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sewall_Wright
I guess we all should take your advice on breeding instead of his

....

P.S. you got me, you baited me in and I jumped on the bait of your internet chatter and swallowed the hook

but I am done now and I think I gave all I can to this thread think people really interested in COI'S should google them and see what the real experts have to say then decide if they want to use them or not....

Dennis

snips · Post by **snips** » Sat Aug 22, 2009 8:52 am

Wow, all of this is way over my head :roll: What the heck is wrong with just eyeballing a pedigree and knowing your dogs and matching up the best to the best. I match the dogs themselves (within our lines) by talent, then conformation, ect. I have a mental image of what will come from it, I do not breed 2 great big dogs, I do not want giants, I do not breed 2 dogs with any fault in conformation, I do not breed 2 midgets, simple deduction. Then, after I put the dogs together that I see complimenting each other, I look at the pedigree. It will usually make a super pedigree at that point...

Dave Quindt · Post by **Dave Quindt** » Sat Aug 22, 2009 9:44 am

snips wrote: What the heck is wrong with just eyeballing a pedigree and knowing your dogs and matching up the best to the best. I match the dogs themselves (within our lines) by talent, then conformation, etc.

Brenda,

There's absolutely nothing wrong with that; it's how every good breeder in the history of sporting dogs has used to breed quality dogs.

The "problem" is that it requires lots of time spent in the field, and the willingness to be completely objective when evaluating breeding stock. It also requires an acceptance that breeding quality animals for the complex traits we desire in a hunting dog is more art than science, and the fact that what we know about canine genetics is dwarfed by what we don't know.

FWIW,
Dave

Fieldmaster · Post by **Fieldmaster** » Sat Aug 22, 2009 10:18 am

What the heck is wrong with just eyeballing a pedigree and knowing your dogs and matching up the best to the best. I match the dogs themselves (within our lines) by talent, then conformation, ect. I have a mental image of what will come from it, I do not breed 2 great big dogs, I do not want giants, I do not breed 2 dogs with any fault in conformation, I do not breed 2 midgets, simple deduction. Then, after I put the dogs together that I see complimenting each other, I look at the pedigree. It will usually make a super pedigree at that point

Agree 110% !!! Have never paid attention to COI's at all.

Robert

briarpatch · Post by **briarpatch** » Sat Aug 22, 2009 12:54 pm

[Wow, all of this is way over my head What the heck is wrong with just eyeballing a pedigree and knowing your dogs and matching up the best to the best. I match the dogs themselves (within our lines) by talent, then conformation, ect. I have a mental image of what will come from it, I do not breed 2 great big dogs, I do not want giants, I do not breed 2 dogs with any fault in conformation, I do not breed 2 midgets, simple deduction. Then, after I put the dogs together that I see complimenting each other, I look at the pedigree. It will usually make a super pedigree at that point...

Brenda I swore I was done with this thread but

There is nothing wrong with that way of doing it, that is 100% how it should done and obviously you have tons more experience with dogs and breeding than I, all I know only comes from a studying aspect of breeding I surely aint no breeder but have only looked into it abit and I surely dont attempt to pretend I know alot about it, I am just learning from studying for the possible future not even sure that I will ever breed..

but if you get stuck between picking from two of your best sires to mate with the female you picked.. as both will have a great potential litter to breed wouldnt hurt to use the formula to figure which great sire to choose to give ya the best possible results in a larger litter..

Who knows may be all bullpucky but the scientics who study genetics claims it works
why not use it if your undecided on which great stud to go with in a potential mating after doing exactly as you described above was my point..
If it does work could result in a larger heathier litter..If it doesnt work you still got a great litter because you used your above method for choosing both the potential sire's and dam

Cant' hurt to use it if both potential sire's match up and you are undecided, if one has a COI of .38 on the potential breeding and one has a COI of .21 it may help you decide to go with the .21 litter in the chance it aint bulllpucky and could produce a larger heathier litter..

Of course its more art than science as Dave pointed out even with the little wise cracks thrown in ..but a little science cant hurt if undecided which potential sire to use and obviously several of the great breeders like brenda and robert who responded already have the art down pat but perhaps from time to time have a tough time deciding which great sire they choose to use..

"another tool in the shed" was the point before Dave got me off track with his internet chatroom bait

Have a great day all..

Dennis