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Crow's Little Joe

Crow's Little Joe

Postby hoosier » Mon Aug 17, 2009 1:17 pm

Can anyone tell me what to expect in general from a Crow's little Joe Pup? Tendancy for natural back and retrieve? Soft / Hard Headed / Easy to train? Sire is out of Stephens Bright Copper and a Elhew bred female and Dam is a granddaughter to Millers Silver Bullet and Crows Little Joe.

I've been told in Elhew bred pups the tails raise / pull forward as they get older is this true with Crow's little joe bred pups also.

One pup has 12:00 tail, one has some sickle, and the other has 10:30 to 11:00 tail, pups are 9 weeks.
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Re: Crow's Little Joe

Postby snips » Mon Aug 17, 2009 1:35 pm

There is alot in there besides Crows Little Joe. I was not real impressed with direct Joe offspring, but mixed up with other stuff could be real good.
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Re: Crow's Little Joe

Postby hoosier » Mon Aug 17, 2009 2:40 pm

Brenda

I getting a pup from Jim Harmon out of KY. The pup is out of his Mac and Sue dogs. I'm getting the pup he has pictured on the NSTRA Advertising page. With some luck hopefully he'll be as good as his mom, dad and the rest of his pedigree. Sue took 1st runner up at the trial of champions this year.
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Re: Crow's Little Joe

Postby kninebirddog » Mon Aug 17, 2009 4:09 pm

Harmons Sue dog makes that breeding...we have a pup from her and copper that is 2 now and he has turned into a decent dog.

I have to over all agree with Brenda...CLJ was a very good dog himself but he sure didn't pass on to the pups what he was for the most part Copper was one of those flukes and copper has done extremely good but coppers pups any of them that is doing good you have to look seriously at the females Copper was bred to as Copper is not prepotent and for as much as he has been bred you sure don't see very many of his progeny making names for themselves....Many make nice family pet companion hunting dogs but many are just to soft for competition at least for quite a few that I have seen and I always watch for which dogs are placing in NSTRA and Coppers puppies to dogs placing is pretty low


SO Your going to the right place to get a nice pup as Sue drops some nice pups :wink:
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Re: Crow's Little Joe

Postby snips » Mon Aug 17, 2009 4:17 pm

Jim's got good dogs and is a great guy too!
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Re: Crow's Little Joe

Postby Ron R » Mon Aug 17, 2009 4:24 pm

hoosier wrote:I've been told in Elhew bred pups the tails raise / pull forward as they get older is this true with Crow's little joe bred pups also.

One pup has 12:00 tail, one has some sickle, and the other has 10:30 to 11:00 tail, pups are 9 weeks.


I would pick the pup with the 11:00 tail if that was how I picked pups. I beleive it will raise when it starts scent pointing. JMO

I have a double bred Little Joe dog off of Copper and I really like him. He was hunt broke at 10 months and guiding hunts at 11 months. Very smart and very easy to train. Solid, dependable natural retriever (land or water). I will also mention that he can flat out find and handle birds (wild and libbs). That is all I will say about him. Like me and my buddy was discussing earlier today, "the only dog you can brag about is a dead one".

You should be excited about that pup (male or female).

Good Luck

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Re: Crow's Little Joe

Postby snips » Mon Aug 17, 2009 5:17 pm

I know Copper will make up for anything that lacks from the other end. He has "guts" to spare.
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Re: Crow's Little Joe

Postby hoosier » Mon Aug 17, 2009 5:25 pm

I'm excited about this pup. Driving to KY Wed. to pick it up. Jim has been great about answering all my questions. The most important part is I believe he has told me the truth not just want I want to hear to sell a pup. Not 100% if I am taking a male or female, but believe I am taking the male on the NSTRA advertising page.
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Re: Crow's Little Joe

Postby kninebirddog » Mon Aug 17, 2009 5:41 pm

Jim does a good job with his breedings . You should be happy
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Re: Crow's Little Joe

Postby ncpointers » Mon Aug 17, 2009 6:30 pm

Burchel's Dutchman is a Crow's Little Joe dog that has been very impressive with his own record and the few offspring I have seen of his are also nice. They are very dependable with a strong desire to please. Also extremely intelligent. Just my 2 cents which won't take you far.
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Re: Crow's Little Joe

Postby midwestfisherman » Tue Aug 18, 2009 1:52 am

Are they still breeding Dutch?
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Re: Crow's Little Joe

Postby Ron R » Tue Aug 18, 2009 8:55 am

midwestfisherman wrote:Are they still breeding Dutch?


I don't think he has thrown pups for 2 or 3 years and I'm not sure about any frozen semen but I don't think they got any straws from him.

I have heard from some that ran against him that he was an outstanding dog. I could always make room for a pup off of him.
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Re: Crow's Little Joe

Postby snips » Tue Aug 18, 2009 9:56 am

Dutchman beat me for the Final 4 in Fl the yr I retired Rip. Matter of fact it was Rip's last trial...
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Re: Crow's Little Joe

Postby PkerStr8Tail » Tue Aug 18, 2009 8:45 pm

kninebirddog wrote:Harmons Sue dog makes that breeding...we have a pup from her and copper that is 2 now and he has turned into a decent dog.

I have to over all agree with Brenda...CLJ was a very good dog himself but he sure didn't pass on to the pups what he was for the most part Copper was one of those flukes and copper has done extremely good but coppers pups any of them that is doing good you have to look seriously at the females Copper was bred to as Copper is not prepotent and for as much as he has been bred you sure don't see very many of his progeny making names for themselves....Many make nice family pet companion hunting dogs but many are just to soft for competition at least for quite a few that I have seen and I always watch for which dogs are placing in NSTRA and Coppers puppies to dogs placing is pretty low


SO Your going to the right place to get a nice pup as Sue drops some nice pups :wink:



This was my experience with Copper pups. I had two males out of Copper from two different females and didn't like either. I sold both of them. Opinions don't actually mean much though. The proof is in the results. I have not heard of his Copper's pups competing in AF Horseback or Walking Trials and winning. I don't follow NSTRA results much so maybe his offspirng is doing better there.
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Re: Crow's Little Joe

Postby Big Dave » Wed Aug 19, 2009 5:48 am

Pokerstraight-what is the breeding on the dog on your avatar? Very nice looking animal.
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Re: Crow's Little Joe

Postby BrettBryan » Wed Aug 19, 2009 12:07 pm

Crow's Little Joe is the grandsire of Sir Lancelot who was real, real close to winning the Nat'l back a few years ago. Crow's Little Joe is also the grandsire of Lester's Leeza who when bred to Miller's Date Line, produced this years Nat'l AA Ch Lester's Snowatch.

Chuck Tash with Tash Kennels in Alabama used to run a lot of Crow's Little Joe dogs in NSTRA. He could probably tell you a lot about that blood. I know they used to run Little John's Crow(out of CLJ) who was a 10X NSTRA Ch and i think he won or placed in 4 National trials. I ran against Chuck when he ran Morgan and Star, both were I believe were daughters or grandaughters of Crow's Little Joe. I also ran against a dog named Danny that was a direct son of Crow's Little Joe. Anthony Crow ran him for a bit. He was a pretty nice dog. He looked nice on the ground. He got down a little on his birds, but was extremely intense. I believe Copper gets down a little low in the front as well.

I'm not sure how many dogs they had to go through to produce the ones they were running. But, i remember the dogs being pretty dang nice. A little on the hard headed side, but had plenty of guts or bottom end.

I would call Chuck Tash with Tash Kennels in AL. He ran that blood for years. I'm sure he can tell you what you need to know.

Good luck with the pup. I haven't seen the pedigree. But, I did see Sunny's Free Sue run two years ago in Amo, IN. She looked like a nice dog to me.
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Re: Crow's Little Joe

Postby PkerStr8Tail » Wed Aug 19, 2009 7:01 pm

Big Dave wrote:Pokerstraight-what is the breeding on the dog on your avatar? Very nice looking animal.

Sire is Shadow's Attitude
Dam is Guard Rails Powder.....which is as it as it's name implies is a bitch out of Guard Rail by a Miller's White Powder bitch

She finished her Horseback Open Derby season with Derby of the Year title in Region 5. Now on to Shooting Dog this year.
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Re: Crow's Little Joe

Postby scott townsend » Fri Aug 21, 2009 6:44 am

BrettBryan wrote:Crow's Little Joe is the grandsire of Sir Lancelot who was real, real close to winning the Nat'l back a few years ago. Crow's Little Joe is also the grandsire of Lester's Leeza who when bred to Miller's Date Line, produced this years Nat'l AA Ch Lester's Snowatch.

Chuck Tash with Tash Kennels in Alabama used to run a lot of Crow's Little Joe dogs in NSTRA. He could probably tell you a lot about that blood. I know they used to run Little John's Crow(out of CLJ) who was a 10X NSTRA Ch and i think he won or placed in 4 National trials. I ran against Chuck when he ran Morgan and Star, both were I believe were daughters or grandaughters of Crow's Little Joe. I also ran against a dog named Danny that was a direct son of Crow's Little Joe. Anthony Crow ran him for a bit. He was a pretty nice dog. He looked nice on the ground. He got down a little on his birds, but was extremely intense. I believe Copper gets down a little low in the front as well.

I'm not sure how many dogs they had to go through to produce the ones they were running. But, i remember the dogs being pretty dang nice. A little on the hard headed side, but had plenty of guts or bottom end.

I would call Chuck Tash with Tash Kennels in AL. He ran that blood for years. I'm sure he can tell you what you need to know.

Good luck with the pup. I haven't seen the pedigree. But, I did see Sunny's Free Sue run two years ago in Amo, IN. She looked like a nice dog to me.


I think Joe threw a lot of good dogs. I know of 3 national champions for sure Copper, Dutch and Little John.He also produced that Ranger dog that runnered up to Dutch in the QI Nationals.
There is no semen from Dutchman in fact Dutch just died about two weeks ago. He followed Roy Burchell (the man that owned him)by 14 days. I buried Dutch behind my kennels on the edge of the training field where him and I spent many good times together.
Joe also produced The Danny Boy and Todd dogs those came out of a female that went back into the Joe line also.Chuck ran Todd and I ran Danny Boy.They should have went to the horseback circuit.They had tons of style and run ,great at finding birds, but they were so wild that they were just too inconsistent for NSTRA. We both put 2 championships on them and washed them out. Anthony got Dannyboy after I did and he also put 2 championships on him. He then sold sold him to Shaun Eisenhauer at Shaky meadows.
I bred Dutch back to a daughter out of Joe and the results were terrible, I bred him to an Elhew female and it was alot better, but nothing I thought was trial quality. Dutch came up sterile at around 11 yrs old.
I don't think much of the double bred CLJ stuff but it does seem to work well when it is outcrossed.
I currently own the Morgon dog out of Little John and have crossed her with 10 X champ Black Magic Snake I have 5 male pups 8 months old that are waiting in line to get started which will be real soon, I am going to keep 2 and sell the rest.
I think Don Marcum is still running Copper.Thats pretty good for an old dog to still compete a that age.
Dutchman won the Champions Trial at 10 yrs of age. That was an incredible bloodline of pointers.I will always own some of that stuff as long as I have birddogs.
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Re: Crow's Little Joe

Postby BrettBryan » Fri Aug 21, 2009 9:02 am

That was an incredible bloodline of pointers.I will always own some of that stuff as long as I have birddogs.scott townsend
Nuff' said
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Re: Crow's Little Joe

Postby hoosier » Fri Aug 21, 2009 10:01 am

I picked my pup up Wed. He is out of Mac (CopperxDamascus daughter)xSue (9xGeary's Sunny Boyx10xGriffins Free Spirit). Mac is a 3xNSTRA Ch. and Sue is a 5xNSTRA Ch. soon to be 6x. Will see how he turns out.
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Re: Crow's Little Joe

Postby snips » Fri Aug 21, 2009 10:03 am

But Scott, I am thinking that Joe was bred probably more than any Pointer that I know of:) There certainly were some nice dogs from him, but out of how many breedings?
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Re: Crow's Little Joe

Postby scott townsend » Fri Aug 21, 2009 1:34 pm

snips wrote:But Scott, I am thinking that Joe was bred probably more than any Pointer that I know of:) There certainly were some nice dogs from him, but out of how many breedings?


I have no idea how many times Joe was bred,thats a good question,one that you would have to ask Anthony I suppose.
Thats always kind of a catch 22 when you have a dog like that on who when and if to breed to.A lot of times you get hunting dog owners that have some well bred dogs but are just in it for the wild bird hunting. So you are stuck in the situation of having produced tons of pups but how many of them went to the trial circuit. And then the ones that are on the circuit how many take it serious ans really persue the sport or how many of them are good enough to get the dog broke. The list goes on and on.
My Fritz dog has produced somewhere around eighty litters.I would venture to say that there are not but ten to fifteen pups from him running the circuit.

I remember the year that Dutchman won the QI nationals.The top 4 dogs were CLJ dogs, that is pretty impressive in my eyes anyway.Maybe I am easily impressed. :lol:
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Re: Crow's Little Joe

Postby snips » Fri Aug 21, 2009 3:05 pm

It takes so long for a males pups to make their mark, many times he is old age before they are really making their mark. Guess there are more than I thought. Sorry to hear about Dutch...
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Re: Crow's Little Joe

Postby Drifter Saver » Sat Aug 22, 2009 5:41 am

I owned one of the dogs Scott T referenced from the Dutchman/CLJ daughter breeding...he was an absolute freak...in almost every way a good one! He could flat out fly, gave it everything that he had, was super intense, would point and point/back/retrieve (land or water) naturally. His only issue was some independence. He needed to be ran in a bigger/more independent game. We gave him our best shot, but he wasn't going to be a NSTRA dog or grouse hunting dog. I sold him to a person who is planning to run him in the grouse/cover dog trials in PA. From what I hear, he is the dog to see (if he stays on course).

I also have a CLJ granddaughter (her mom was a full sister to Dutchman). She is the dog in my avatar. Her sire is Shadow's Attitude. That appears to be a good cross as she has been a lot of fun to hunt and trial.
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