Pedigree Info Help

[MOOSE]

I know a lot of dogs in this pedigree but wanting some feedback on any dogs who are not showing titles. Saying this is from AKC papers it won't show NAVHDA and such. Please let me know if any NAVDHA or other registry titles are missing. Thanks!

[MOOSE]

Forgot the link sorry:

http://www.perfectpedigrees.com/4genview.php?id=2202

[snips]

All I know is I bred Holzstrom's Snip Chick and she was here for a summer when Leslie was kind enough to allow me a litter from her. She was Snips Ticked Off's littermate and an awsome female. I have a picture somewhere of Rip pointing and Scarlett backing. She belonged to Lon and Leslie Ruddock in RI, Holzstrom Shorthairs. I think she got a couple of Breeder Awards on her litters. The dog out of her belongs to Rob Mourmon's Abby Lane GSP's.

[rkelly]

Only thing I know of that is missing is INT CH/ VC Shooting Starrs Sharp Shooter MH

[MOOSE]

Thanks for the help guys. I have talked with Rob about the dog that is Abbe Lane. I have also gone ahead and added the CH and VC onto Shooting Star.

Anyone else with feedback would be great. After researching for a few hours last night I found some of the dogs on her mothers side were German Imports too.

[Fieldmaster]

One thing it should also read (Can. Ch. Stradivarius Fugue)

Robert

[adogslife]

This pedigree shows a complete outcross. You do not need to research the dogs past the 3rd generation.I wouldn't look past the grandparents for the traits that might appear in an upcoming breeding.

[snips]

This is not a complete outcross, there is Hustler and Wildburg both behind both sides, actually alot of it. Fugue was also a littermate to Barogue that goes to Wildburg/Hustler. Also alot of it behind Jacob. Plus Wildburg behind Wilhelmine. It really needs to show a couple more generations to see how nicely linebred it is.

[adogslife]

If there are no dogs in common in the first 3 generations it is a complete outcross.In this case,at what generation do you find common dogs?

[ezzy333]

If there are no dogs in common in the first 3 generations it is a complete outcross.In this case,at what generation do you find common dogs?

This doesn't make sense to me. I have a dog with the same dog in the 4th generation 3 times and two others closely related to him. And a female that is a grand-daughter of that same dog. Seems to me that would be a linebred litter but maybe not as close as you would like. I want to check back at least 5 generations when looking for traits.

Ezzy

[adogslife]

In a puppy a dog in the 4th gen only contributes about 1/256 of the hereditary factors.
It is incorrect to assume that a dog in the 4th or later gen could have much influence over the unrelated dogs appearing closer up.
You may see phenotype but it is genotype we are looking for.
It is cool to know who is in a pedigree,it is good to keep things in focus,tho.

[jt807]

In a puppy a dog in the 4th gen only contributes about 1/256 of the hereditary factors.
It is incorrect to assume that a dog in the 4th or later gen could have much influence over the unrelated dogs appearing closer up.
You may see phenotype but it is genotype we are looking for.
It is cool to know who is in a pedigree,it is good to keep things in focus,tho.

How do you get 1/256th? If that was the case, that would mean if you look up 4 generations, you would see 256 dogs.

To see 256 dogs, you have to look up 8 generations, not 4.

So 4 gives you 16 dogs to look it. That mean each ancestor in the 4th generation contributes about 1/16th to the puppy. If there are some dogs there with the same lines or traits, then those get even stronger.

[snips]

Wonder why anybody linebreeds then :roll:

[MOOSE]

Complete outcross or not it is a very nice pedigree the more I research it with dogs who are all VERY similar in build and apperence along with ability. And honestly not too shaby for someone who just decided they didn't want their 4 year old GSP and pretty much dropped her on my doorstep with papers and transfer in hand. I am not gonna complain about that. She has almost every bloodline I want in a dog in her. So we will see if she is a permanent addition or not. 3 German Shorthaires and 3 American Pit Bull Terriers that all live indoors can be a bit much. But we will see what the next few weeks brings. I really like this dog and it seems she has inherited some wonderful genetics from those in her pedigree.

[briarpatch]

Looks like a very good line breeding behind her to me with little crosses to just the right stuff to make an awesome dog at least from the bloodlines or pedigree aspect of it , most of those lines are very recognizable well known quality lines that you will find in many NAVHDA type backgrounded dogs or DKV backgrounded..

got any pictures of her???

P.S. My Belle is out of that doublebarrel kennel
they let me name her as I wished, I have been thinking of changing her name to Doublebarrel's Belle Von Der High Caliber as I think now as an afterthought, it only fair the breeder get their kennel name added to her name, she was imported from canada...

real nice people

[MOOSE]

I haven't been able to get any good pics of her as of yet. Just letting her settle in some. Though it really is taking a tole on my other GSP's and dogs. They all have this bewildered look to them and that is not normal for them when getting a new dog in. They normally are totaly good with it and accepting with open paws. Not that they are being mean but they all are looking at me like I am abandoning them for her. A friend of mine in ND wants her so we are working out details to get her to him. I also noticed last night after really doing a more in depth physically exam of her that she has a horrible underbite! That in itself is a deal breaker for me to keep her for my future program. It does not hinder her eating abilities or her retrieving as she always wants a stuffed animal in her mouth. So that is good. I just can't bring myself to keep her here for my program with a bad bite. It is hard as she has all the lines I would love to have in a pedigree but I can't justify it. Her upper lips hang down low enough too that you can't tell from just looking at her that she has a bad bite.

[adogslife]

16 x 16=256.

How can you say she has all the lines you would love to have in a pedigree?
I guess you mean all except the line that gave her that underbite?

I'm sure she will make a great companion to her new owner.

[MOOSE]

I have yet to figure out where that underbite is coming from. I have talked to the direct breeders of her along with people who own the dogs in her background and none of them have any bite issues. This is not ment to start a bite topic again either. But not all bite issues are genetic. I am just not willing to take the chance.

I want the Hillhaven Hustler in my program
I want the Westwind and Stradivarius
I also want the strong german that she has in her pedigree

So bloodline wise she has exactly what I want. At this point it is a toss up as to how she got her bad underbite. It could have been something that is not genetic at all and more trauma caused. Considering her mollers line up just fine.

Just be happy I am not willing to breed her and take the chance. You seem to enjoy giving people a hard time. Even the right decision isn't a good enough one for you.

[MOOSE]

And if someone can tell me where the bad bite may have come from in her lines I would love to know. And I won't stop asking the questions to those who own the dogs in her pedigree about the bite either. This will just further my knowledge of the certian bloodlines and what they produce. Education is always a good thing!

[adogslife]

Not a hard time, food for thought.

One thing I know, people are not willing to talk about faults. They will even deny obvious faults in their own dogs.How many people or breeders even check for a bad bite or know which teeth are extra or missing? I can guess that there was a bad bite in one of the breeding dogs and nobody even knew it.When most people consider conformation the mouth is not on the list unless it is so obvious
you notice it.Like in this bitch.

[MOOSE]

It isn't just the owners of the dogs but other people who own dogs from these dogs that I am talking with to learn more. I want the whole package: conformation and hunting. So once she relaxed a bit at our house I gave her a true once over. If it were not for her bite she would be a show ring contendor. Even against the right dogs I know she would finish her show champion but I am not ok with that.

Don't get me wrong these are not the ONLY lines I want or like. There are others as well.

[briarpatch]

Moose take her for a swim, know you are into dock dogs you may just decide to keep her as a pet after seeing her jump or in the field ...

would still love to see a pic, many of my favorite lines combined in there, sorry to hear her bite is off what a shame, if her bite is that bad may be best to neuter her before giving her away so know one else adds another bad bite to the genepool..

[MOOSE]

We are in to dock jumping you are right there. But I am also trying to build a nice breeding program for myself. Not a huge one by any means but if I am going to add a GSP to stay they need to be able to fit into that long term plan. She would be an awesome companion and pet just want to also have that option in the future to have the dog help further my program. I already have a female GSP who is not going to be fitting into my program and is gettin spayed next week. So one "pet" quality GSP is enough for me at this time.

I totaly trust my friend in taking her and that he will stick by his word in spaying her. I won't turn over papers with out proof of spay and I know he won't breed her with out papers. He just wants a nice hunting dog. And he sure will get that from her!

[snips]

There are some "off" bites anytime you deal in Hustler lines. Just a fact. I do not know where it came from behind him, but any Hustler male I have delt with has that possibility. He brings much to the table tho in lots of other positive traits. It is like anything else you breed for, breed on the good traits and eliminate the bad.

[MOOSE]

I just got an email from the original owner. I guess this female had a litter in 2008. UGH. But she said all those pups bites were normal. They had them checked out by the vet. And that this female from day one has had a bad bite. Now I am wanting to research to see if anyone who has one of her pups has done anything with it. Not that it will change my mind but still it would be fun to find out.

[Miss Bella]

Why don't you just come out and say you don't really care about the bite that you just want to breed her. You have made every excuse for the dog and the bite. Quit making excuses , you like her pedigree and that is that. You would think she was the last known dog carrying those lines. Would you make the same excuses for a potential stud dog also.

Miss Bella

[adogslife]

They had the pups bite looked at? At what age? Bites are examined until about 2 years of age.

Even if she throws a litter,or 2, w/o bad bites she may still pass along the gene to pop up later on. It is all a matter of how ethical a breeder wants to be.

[Dave Quindt]

But she said all those pups bites were normal. They had them checked out by the vet. And that this female from day one has had a bad bite.

One of the complexities of the "Hustler bite" was that they looked good as pups but went bad as the pups got older. Good bites at 8 weeks; bad bites at a year. When you talk to breeders with experience with linebred Hustler dogs, at least the ones that are objective about evaluating dogs and bloodlines, you hear this a fair amount.

[birddogsunlimited]

ok just jumping in here im the one that will be getting her, not really intrested in breeding her i already have one that i would breed if i was up to having a litter but its more than i want to deal with shes just intact for show perpose. this dog will be spayed as i said not intrested in breedig and if i was not looking to pass on a potential genetic issue. im just looking for a good hunting dog to run with my other and wasnt really up for training a pup right now. its been looking out of curiosity into her back ground. and what types of dogs shes come from

[MOOSE]

Why don't you just come out and say you don't really care about the bite that you just want to breed her. You have made every excuse for the dog and the bite. Quit making excuses , you like her pedigree and that is that. You would think she was the last known dog carrying those lines. Would you make the same excuses for a potential stud dog also.

Miss Bella

Thanks for passing judgement on me. I really appreciate you assuming something that is totaly not true. If I felt that strongly about breeding her I would. But like I have said before a bad bite is a 100% NO GO in my book. But hey you can read whatever you want into what I have posted.

I like to know everything possible about a dog that I have here whether it be for 2 days ore a lifetime. I guess if learning about all that means I want to breed her no matter what the cost then I guess I am that way even with my own dog that is getting spayed on Tuesday due to not being conformationally good enough in my book.

Every rescue dog/foster dog/whatever dog that walks through this house is another opportunity for me to learn about this breed and that is exactly what I am doing.

[bruns333]

Brenda how many dogs have you bred? If you had had to guess what percentage had bad bites at 8 weeks? After adulthood? I think some bad bites will show up if you breed enough dogs for long enough. I think Brenda and Rick have a top notch breeding program for gsp's, and try to breed very high quality dogs. Do folks find that they have more bite issues when you breed short muzzles to long muzzles or other very different head types to one another?

Matt

[snips]

I think we have majority of it eliminated, as I rarely see an off bite before 8 wks, and rarely see one from a later age...Will not say positively it will not happen. I had a Trekker female that would have 1 severely overshot pup in each litter, I would of course sell it limited. I am not much at culling if the dog will make a productive hunting dog, pet. Not everyone cares about breeding. And yes, I think if you breed enough you will see an occasional issue.

[MOOSE]

Here is a picture of the dog in question. Other than her front feet stacked out a bit forward she is turning out to be a nice girl. Getting in nice hunting shape as well. She really hasn't been stacked before so is resisting some but overall is doing well. Just thought you may all enjoy a picture of the dog that was being discussed.