Gundogs Seized in SoDak

SD Pheasant Slayer · Post by **SD Pheasant Slayer** » Thu Sep 03, 2009 1:47 pm

Big news in South Dakota yesterday I thought might interest you all. A hunting/breeding operation in Turner county (just south of Sioux Falls) was raided by by local rescue workers (and of course HSUS volunteers). They seized 172 dogs from the property... most of them shorthairs and weimaraners, but the kennel's website listed wirehairs and brittany's among the breeds they sold as well. Right now the dogs are being kept at the Fairgrounds until they can decide if charges are pressed (SoDak is VERY lenient in terms of animal cruelty with no felony animal cruelty laws on the books).

Various newspapers are reporting on the issue, but nothing overly informative. The best article is here: http://www.keloland.com/news/NewsDetail ... m?ID=89539 I guess I'm pretty skeptical of a lot of what's being said right now with the HSUS issuing most of the statements, but it's hard to imagine a situation where nearly 200 dogs could be living in barns and grain bins and not be living in sub-acceptable conditions. Should be interesting to see if any legal battles ensue.

I just got off the phone with Second Chance Rescue in Sioux Falls who is handling all the dogs until things get straightened out and they said they are in need of a lot of help. The wife and I are bringing up a few bags of food and all the collars Cash has outgrown. The lady on the phone said they are in need of collars, leashes, and anything else dog related, in addition to food for the dogs and workers. Additionally, she said they are very short on foster homes should the dogs be taken permanently (we signed up to foster a dog in the event they need help). Anyone here that wanted to help can get ahold of Second Chance at 605-362-1722.

hpvizslas · Post by **hpvizslas** » Thu Sep 03, 2009 3:00 pm

I would say that 172 dogs is an excessive amount but they all looked to be in good condition and from the video, the pens did not look any worse than what I have seen at a lot of shelters.

I am not sure that I would help out the Second Chance rescue group, if they were part of this without knowing for sure what the problem is. I have a hard time trusting the HSUS after all that I have heard and this seems to be another way for them to try and take away hunting rights, which is what they have said they would like to see. Not a big fan of liberal help groups, when all they want to help is thier own agenda.

Jeff

CherrystoneWeims · Post by **CherrystoneWeims** » Thu Sep 03, 2009 3:02 pm

Weimaraner Rescue is working on helping with the Weims. But we are in desperate need of foster homes. Please if anyone can help to foster that would help tremendously!

windswept · Post by **windswept** » Thu Sep 03, 2009 3:21 pm

I live in Sioux Falls and have been paying close attention to all of the coverage. This whole deal makes me uneasy. I am somewhat torn. On one hand how on earth can you keep 172 dogs and keep things sanitary. On the other hand HSUS is behind this and that is a HUGE red flag. The media reports indicate that the dogs all seem healthy and well cared for. One reporter even commented on how friendly and well socialized the dogs appeared to him. The issue (according to the ever fair media) seems to be the living conditions.
As of yet no charges filed against the owner and if there aren't I hope he brings a lawsuit against HSUS and Secon Chance Rescue.
Time will tell.

Thistle · Post by **Thistle** » Thu Sep 03, 2009 6:30 pm

I would not recommend donating to the Second Chance Rescue in Sioux Falls. Seems like they pull a media stunt every so often to raise money for their business. They don't have a lot of credibility with me. It does not surprise me that they are in bed with HSUS.

ESetterLove · Post by **ESetterLove** » Fri Sep 04, 2009 12:22 am

I agree, something is not right with this "rescue"

I watched the video from the link and I saw nothing that indicated "unsanitary" conditions. Lord knows I have seen worse. Nothing in that video clip led me to think that the dogs were in any danger (aside from the nuts who think they are "saving" a hunting dog from doing what it was born to do by fencing it in and refusing to send it to anyone who might hunt with it ) What I also noticed was the well socialized and healthy looking dogs. Why they had to pick up and carry healthy dogs to safety is beyond me!

Maybe not...it was to make a visual statement. But even my dog won't let me pick him up and carry him like that to the pickup.

The most revealing moment on the clip for me was the interview with the chubby blonde lady...."today?" she says... The psych major in me can't help but read body language and she is classic! Something stinks with this one and I am not buying it unless I hear different.

But I also question if the breeders may have been getting close to financial trouble as well. That is a large amount of dogs to have in this economy.
This is a situation to keep updated on for certain.

One wonders who they will target next?

live4point · Post by **live4point** » Fri Sep 04, 2009 2:30 am

Why were they raided?

twofeathers · Post by **twofeathers** » Fri Sep 04, 2009 4:38 am

Thats to bad. I hope they find good homes if they have to be removed. Conditions did not look too bad on video. And of course they probably tried to show the worst possible shots. The lady they interviewed did not seem to know much. Does seem fishey.

kumate · Post by **kumate** » Fri Sep 04, 2009 5:06 am

Watching this makes me want to puke, while i wouldnt buy a dog from this person, the dogs looked perfectly healthy to me and she sure has a right to engage in business. This is gestapo tactics and i wouldnt donate a dime to this rescue. The young newborn pup in one of the clips was fat and healthy and most of the dogs looked fine to me. They were keying on the looks of the place and as usual dramatizing the whole thing . It is a given that you could take care of a few dogs alot better exercise, more optimum nutrition, socialazation etc. than 172 unless you have a unlimited budget. The worst thing they showed was a dog that they said was one of the worse cased that apeared to have a cut on its elbow area. I hope this lady sues there a.. off

Jerry

Post by **Az Draht** » Fri Sep 04, 2009 5:15 am

What legal authority does the HSUS have to conduct this raid? The didn't once say a law enforcement agency was envolved.

ACooper · Post by **ACooper** » Fri Sep 04, 2009 7:16 am

I would never support this rescue or volunteer to foster a dog for them, all you are doing is showing support for their agenda and tactics.

wems2371 · Post by **wems2371** » Fri Sep 04, 2009 7:21 am

I am incredibly bothered by this as well. Many times when you see "rescue" footage--you see matted dogs, skinny dogs, wild unsocialized dogs, dirty dogs from being in their own feces, pens full of feces. I SAW NONE OF THAT, and I'm sure if any of those factors were present, they would have filmed it and plastered it on every media outlet they could have. I saw healthy looking, tail wagging, and evidently socialized-enough-for-strangers-to-carry-them--dogs being waltzed out. Don't get me wrong, I despise puppy mills, but I reckon this is more of a show of force by HSUS than a matter of abused animals. No offense to anyone who's posted here, but unless that footage becomes available, I would rather donate to the family's lawyer.....

Elroy's Bandit · Post by **Elroy's Bandit** » Fri Sep 04, 2009 8:03 am

This story has hit a nerve with me. What legal right does the hsus have to enter someones place and seize anything??? This is unbelievable!! The story does not say if the State's Attorney was present, but if they were and the dogs all check out....then what? It appears that numerous laws could have been broken, not to mention the owners Civil Rights. Was there a building inspector(Codes), Code Enforcement (Ordinance) or State Fire Marshall (Life Safety) at the kennel to determine if any laws or ordinances were broken?? The facility was "delapidated" so the hsus says. Do they have the authority or background to make a call on the laws, or is this a subjective thing?. If an organization feels that since your walls are painted blue it promotes a lathargic pet and they might not eat well when they are lathargic, and therefore everything that breathes is seized!! What a crock. As far as I know, delapidation has to be a specific code or ordinance violation and you are written up, ticketed, and then you go to court and are heard in front of judge.It's called the "our legal sytem" Since when is the hsus the judge & jury?? Many municipalities have "Beautification Ordinances", but you don't surrender your pet, child, or elderly parents because your grass wasn't cut.
They also said that "sharp objects were found" Where, and what exactly. I have a drawer in my kitchen full of sharp knives, and my dogs have been known to walk by this drawer at times. Is this an unsafe enviroment?? If the dogs were all kenneled, which it appears they were, where were these sharp objects..littering the inside of the kennels??? This smells like a rat to me.
Maybe the kennel operator wasn't within the "letter of the law", and if that's the case ,he should be brought in and answer to the infractions, and be forced to repair and clean up what he is in violation of. The problem I am having is that after watching the video clip, the dogs didn't look that bad to me.Something just doesn't seem right with this. JMO
Bill

hpvizslas · Post by **hpvizslas** » Fri Sep 04, 2009 8:10 am

I am also curious as to how many of these dogs were adult dogs and how many were puppies?? I am not saying that a puppy mill is the way to go but it does not take many litters to add up the number of dogs that you can have.

Also, have to wonder if there were any other infractions prior to this??

Elroy's Bandit · Post by **Elroy's Bandit** » Fri Sep 04, 2009 8:14 am

That's a good question as well, hpvizslas!!
Bill L.

CherrystoneWeims · Post by **CherrystoneWeims** » Fri Sep 04, 2009 9:22 am

The dogs that were shown don't look in bad condition. The news did say that there are some in poor condition but they didn't show those.

The pens at the mill looked pretty bad. Old tires, rusty implements, etc. The dogs were running on broken pallets. I didn't see any shelter either. Makes me wonder what that place is like when there is a hard rain. Do the pens flood??

The other photos were from after the seizure at the fairgrounds in the barn.

I am very leery of HSUS when they are involved in anything.

ESetterLove · Post by **ESetterLove** » Fri Sep 04, 2009 1:52 pm

Something about this was bugging me so I spent some time digging around for more information.
In one article I found, they reported dead dogs were found as well. But that site might have been affiliated with the HSUS. While I agree at this point conditions "might have" been poor. I just don't really know and won't judge without more information.

What bothered me most was a statement made by Scotlund Haisley, that said "This is our 4th puppy mill raid in 4 days." There are a ton of breeders and hunting lodges in that area of SD. I assume there are a bunch of trainers that come from the south in the summer in the area as well. The only thing that comes to my mind right now is if you are anywhere near that area right now, you had better be on your toes and be ready if they show up. Anytime I see the letters HSUS I get an uneasy feeling.

While there are many legitimate puppy mill raids, I am not sure about this one. I did find that their (the breeders in question) web site is off line at the moment, but if I were in their place I would shut it down too. I can only imagine all the hate letters,calls and email they are getting right now. I know there are people on here that are close to the area that might have more inside information so share it if you do.

But right now the only thing in my mind is that something fishy is going on in that area. 4 raids in 4 day's??? Someone is trying to make a statement and using the media to do it.. One comment in the video clip say's it all...the guy in the yellow t-shirt holding a healthy and happy looking dog say's "just needs a little love" Hmmmm. You know, even the dogs seen in the background that were led by leash were well behaved. That is not something I would expect to see from neglected, unsocialized dogs.

Still a story to keep an eye on

snips · Post by **snips** » Fri Sep 04, 2009 2:18 pm

I do not know what gives HSUS the right to raid anything...They are not Government inspectors.....?????

CherrystoneWeims · Post by **CherrystoneWeims** » Fri Sep 04, 2009 4:42 pm

Did HSUS initiate the raid or were they called in by the local authorities to assist with the raid

ESetterLove · Post by **ESetterLove** » Fri Sep 04, 2009 5:21 pm

CherrystoneWeims wrote:Did HSUS initiate the raid or were they called in by the local authorities to assist with the raid

Hi, I will give a link of one article I found. To me it looks like the raid was initiated by HSUS. I have yet to find anything about the "sick puppy ordered online" To me that could be anything and really means nothing without facts. Who knows? Perhaps they (the HSUS) are ordering puppies online themselves? Like I said before, I no nothing about this breeder but am unwilling to judge them without more details. But everything I read right now looks to me like HSUS is looking to shake up SD animal laws. What better way to make a point? Right now it looks as if their focus target is Hunting dogs. (remember, most of them believe it is cruel to use a dog for hunting) I haven't seen them raid any Poodle or Yorkie breeding places recently.

http://www.argusleader.com/article/2009 ... /909030322

and here is the link for second chance
http://www.secondchancesiouxfalls.com/

You know, when we hunt our dogs the conditions could be considered dangerous and unsafe. I am sure most hunters on here would agree that that is just part of the hunt. Of course we send our dog out among sharp objects...barb wire fences, stubble field, all kinds of burs and of course there is always the chance of a Porcupine encounter. I could go on and on..... But I am pretty sure our dogs don't feel abused and neglected. They would if we kept them fenced and never allowed them to hunt again though... I am sure all will agree looking at their Dogs this time of the year.. Mine just seem to know hunting season is almost here and are getting jumpy to get going.

I guess we are all abusing our dogs in the eyes of HSUS and other related orgs..

birddogger · Post by **birddogger** » Fri Sep 04, 2009 5:25 pm

I would not donate one penny to anything HSUS is behind.

Charlie

CherrystoneWeims · Post by **CherrystoneWeims** » Fri Sep 04, 2009 6:27 pm

birddogger wrote:I would not donate one penny to anything HSUS is behind.

Charlie

I don't think that anyone on this forum would donate to anything remotely connected to HSUS!

CherrystoneWeims · Post by **CherrystoneWeims** » Fri Sep 04, 2009 8:10 pm

OK it seems as though Second Chance was notified by someone who bought a sick pup. Second Chance has deputized officers on staff who then notified local law enforcement and also notified HSUS of the situation.

ESetterLove · Post by **ESetterLove** » Fri Sep 04, 2009 8:39 pm

CherrystoneWeims wrote:Weimaraner Rescue is working on helping with the Weims. But we are in desperate need of foster homes. Please if anyone can help to foster that would help tremendously!

How are you working with them? Should it come to a need for fostering (I don't believe the dogs have been surrendered yet) I am in ND and would possibly consider it. But that would depend on the outcome of this thing. I still would like to know the real facts of this "raid" I am waiting to hear back from a family member that lives in the area what they have heard.

Post by **ezzy333** » Fri Sep 04, 2009 9:21 pm

CherrystoneWeims wrote:OK it seems as though Second Chance was notified by someone who bought a sick pup. Second Chance has deputized officers on staff who then notified local law enforcement and also notified HSUS of the situation.

Sure makes me feel good to know that our rescue groups are working with HSUS. Kind of says what side they are on.

Ezzy

ESetterLove · Post by **ESetterLove** » Fri Sep 04, 2009 9:36 pm

ezzy333 wrote:
CherrystoneWeims wrote:OK it seems as though Second Chance was notified by someone who bought a sick pup. Second Chance has deputized officers on staff who then notified local law enforcement and also notified HSUS of the situation.
Sure makes me feel good to know that our rescue groups are working with HSUS. Kind of says what side they are on.

Ezzy

I agree with you on that one Ezzy!

CherrystoneWeims · Post by **CherrystoneWeims** » Fri Sep 04, 2009 9:58 pm

It is very scary to see some rescue groups associated with HSUS.

I can assure you though that Weimaraner Rescue is NOT associated with HSUS. We try to do anything that we can to get purebred Weimaraners out of the hands of all breed rescue groups as many times these groups do not believe in the breeding of purebred dogs.

My direct affiliation is with my local club and from there we are affiliated with the Weimaraner Club of America National Rescue (our "umbrella" rescue group). When a local group is overwhelmed with a large seizure such as this other local rescue clubs help them out with donations, taking some of the dogs, transportation, etc. We helped the Tarheels Weimaraner Rescue a couple of years ago when they had about 60 dogs surrendered by a local mill. We ended up taking some dogs and also donating.

Neil · Post by **Neil** » Sat Sep 05, 2009 1:42 am

I am against anything that HSUS does.

But since they now have the dogs we need to assist. HSUS would like nothing better than to euthanize the whole lot of them. They killed many beloved pets following Katrina, and took glee in it. The leadership really does believe it is better to be dead than a pet!

So while I don't want to empower HSUS, the dogs are going to suffer and die if we don't intervene,

Neil

windswept · Post by **windswept** » Sat Sep 05, 2009 5:45 am

I am against anything that HSUS does.

But since they now have the dogs we need to assist. HSUS would like nothing better than to euthanize the whole lot of them. They killed many beloved pets following Katrina, and took glee in it. The leadership really does believe it is better to be dead than a pet!

So while I don't want to empower HSUS, the dogs are going to suffer and die if we don't intervene,

Neil

I am not so sure this is true. HSUS is bad news but I don't think these dogs will die at their hands without our help. I think I'll just sit back and let HSUS chew up their own money on this deal rather than to help them with some of mine.

wems2371 · Post by **wems2371** » Sat Sep 05, 2009 7:25 am

Again, the whole sick pup could've been a set up as well. Just watched a video yesterday where a person took undercover video at a chicken factory. These types will do what they need to do to get their agenda/job done. Sometimes it's a good thing and sometimes it's distortion. I'm not a breeder, but I would guess many breeders have had a sick pup from time to time. Was it diarrhea? Was it flea infestation? Define sick pup and show us the nitty gritty of this heinous crime against canines. If they didn't video just about everything on arrival, I'd be surprised.....or suspect.

snips · Post by **snips** » Sat Sep 05, 2009 8:40 am

Most birddog kennels keep dogs lean and that is fuel for those folks. They will start on dogs not being taken care of for anything. Plus there is always that juvenile that is hard to get weight on, they will use anything. We have state inspectors here that show up at random in Ga.

Dennmor · Post by **Dennmor** » Sat Sep 05, 2009 9:46 am

Anyone in that neck of that woods tried to contact the kennel owner?
As others have said, I don't endorse "puppy mills" but it might be worthwhile to get the other side of the story.
This maybe a situation where we all pitch in to do what we can to protect the kennels rights.
By protecting theirs we might be protecting our own!
Sometimes it seems like we critisize others for organizing and promoting their agenda while we sit on our butts and do little to protect ours.
If the kennel is deserving, I wouldn't be oppossed contributing to the cause.
After all, at that point, wouldn't their cause be our cause?

dennmor

CherrystoneWeims · Post by **CherrystoneWeims** » Sat Sep 05, 2009 10:24 am

OK I just received an update on the dogs (weims at least). The dogs are heavily infested with ciccidia, giardia, and other parasites. While they look social in the video they run to the back of the cage and cower when the door is opened. Typical mill dog behavior.

There are 20 - 25 adult Weims and 40 - 45 Weimaraner puppies! That is just the Weims!! The local rescue is going to need help when they are released to breed rescue. Local groups cannot handle 70 dogs at once.

I will keep everyone posted.

windswept · Post by **windswept** » Sat Sep 05, 2009 10:55 am

http://www.argusleader.com/article/2009 ... /909050313

Well it looks like more details are coming forward that are incriminating the breeder.
While I am still very anti HSUS it is beginning to look like there are some serious problems with this breeder and his operation.
This is just a bad deal from every angle. One one hand I cannot see myself ever being aligned with HSUS or any position that they take. On the other hand what would my objective opinion be of a breeder that has 150 + dogs covering 4 or 5 different breeds? I would not likely ever recommend someone like that as a source to get a good quality hunting prospect.
Bad deal.

Neil · Post by **Neil** » Sat Sep 05, 2009 11:29 am

windswept wrote:

So while I don't want to empower HSUS, the dogs are going to suffer and die if we don't intervene,

Neil
I am not so sure this is true. HSUS is bad news but I don't think these dogs will die at their hands without our help. I think I'll just sit back and let HSUS chew up their own money on this deal rather than to help them with some of mine.

Explain your disbelieve to the thousands of pet owners who had their dogs killed post katrina. I got the reports directly from those on the ground, HSUS was going from shelter to shelter picking up dogs to put them down.

You really don't understand these people, they would really rather see a dog die than be a pet. They are not about adoption or placement. They do not believe it is humane to keep any animal of any type. You can look up their tax filings, they spend millions on propaganda, and less than a $100,00 to shelters, and then only to kill shelters.

HSUS spent their money on investigation and getting the dogs, they will spend nothing for their care, that will be up to the local shelters and rescue groups.

All the AR groups combined have budgets of well over a billion dollars per year, nearly all of it spent to end man's ownership of animals, they just don't care about individual dogs, they believe they have a higher mission. To free all animals,

Neil

ESetterLove · Post by **ESetterLove** » Sat Sep 05, 2009 2:53 pm

While I agree that things are looking bad for the breeder, I still don't have enough to judge. Clearly he has had some run inn's about his operation. His site is down and I had never heard of it before this, but it sounds like he operated a lodge or guide type business as well? I do know that in the Dakota's they have been cracking down on this type of thing recently. Licensing is usually where they get people. Heck, our state even tried to pass a law that would require your deer to be covered during transport. I guess it was offensive and scary?? LOL :roll: I also know there have been a few articles about increased Parvo infections in our state. I haven't really had time to check into it so am not really sure what the source is.

I guess part of my point is this, of course they are going to say that the dogs have all sorts of problems. They can't really say that they "raided and rescued" almost 200 Healthy dogs and puppies can they? And I would think any dog that was taken out of it's normal setting and routine would shy away when approached. I didn't appear that the dog's were cowering and afraid when they rescued them in the video clip.

If I had time I wouldn't mind running down there and assessing the situation in person. But it's harvest time and I don't have a day to blow off right now.
The fact that only HSUS and SCRC are involved with this really makes me nervous. The last legitimate kennel rescue in our state was handled by the local kennel clubs, not HSUS....

But in the end, if any of the dogs should need a foster placement I might be willing to do it. It would be good timing as our area is flooded with OUS and in state hunters in a few weeks. Some really good homes could potentially be found.

birddogger · Post by **birddogger** » Sat Sep 05, 2009 3:16 pm

Neil wrote:
windswept wrote:

So while I don't want to empower HSUS, the dogs are going to suffer and die if we don't intervene,

Neil
I am not so sure this is true. HSUS is bad news but I don't think these dogs will die at their hands without our help. I think I'll just sit back and let HSUS chew up their own money on this deal rather than to help them with some of mine.
Explain your disbelieve to the thousands of pet owners who had their dogs killed post katrina. I got the reports directly from those on the ground, HSUS was going from shelter to shelter picking up dogs to put them down.

You really don't understand these people, they would really rather see a dog die than be a pet. They are not about adoption or placement. They do not believe it is humane to keep any animal of any type. You can look up their tax filings, they spend millions on propaganda, and less than a $100,00 to shelters, and then only to kill shelters.

HSUS spent their money on investigation and getting the dogs, they will spend nothing for their care, that will be up to the local shelters and rescue groups.

All the AR groups combined have budgets of well over a billion dollars per year, nearly all of it spent to end man's ownership of animals, they just don't care about individual dogs, they believe they have a higher mission. To free all animals,

Neil

Exactly!!!! Good post, Neil

Charlie

fuzznut · Post by **fuzznut** » Sun Sep 06, 2009 4:51 am

Let's say we all agree HSUS is an evil entity.... none of us want to support them nor help them.
Let's say we all agree that this whole thing is fishy, and that the dogs appear healthy enough.

I do think that most here would agree the scenes they showed of the dogs living conditions were not up to par. In fact, I can't imagine anyone here keeping their dogs in pens full of junk, broken pallets etc. Maybe I'm wrong... but I doubt it.

So we all are in agreement? No one wants to do anything that will lend credence to this organization. But where does this leave the dogs? That is what this comes down to.

It's a sticky wicket... as a person who has spent 30 yrs trying my best to produce quality animals, I don't like commercial mass producing breeders, no matter the breed. There is no way they can give that many dogs proper care, training, socialize puppies etc. It is strictly a money making endeavor and they don't care what happens to the puppies or dogs once they get check in hand and dogs are off their property. However, I also realize that allowing the government or HSUS to terrorize any breeder no matter the size, will one day trickle down to me and my breeding plans.

I want to see puppy mills gone. I want to see the mass production of dogs gone. But what constitutes mass production? Two litters a yr? Five?

How many dogs are too many?

It like pornography, we all know it when we see it... but try to define it.

It's a no win situation.... breed rescues come in and take the dogs, they are in some ways backing up the HSUS. Don't get the dogs out, who knows what will happen to them.

snips · Post by **snips** » Sun Sep 06, 2009 6:28 am

fuzznut wrote:Let's say we all agree HSUS is an evil entity.... none of us want to support them nor help them.
Let's say we all agree that this whole thing is fishy, and that the dogs appear healthy enough.

I do think that most here would agree the scenes they showed of the dogs living conditions were not up to par. In fact, I can't imagine anyone here keeping their dogs in pens full of junk, broken pallets etc. Maybe I'm wrong... but I doubt it.

So we all are in agreement? No one wants to do anything that will lend credence to this organization. But where does this leave the dogs? That is what this comes down to.

It's a sticky wicket... as a person who has spent 30 yrs trying my best to produce quality animals, I don't like commercial mass producing breeders, no matter the breed. There is no way they can give that many dogs proper care, training, socialize puppies etc. It is strictly a money making endeavor and they don't care what happens to the puppies or dogs once they get check in hand and dogs are off their property. However, I also realize that allowing the government or HSUS to terrorize any breeder no matter the size, will one day trickle down to me and my breeding plans.

Exactly...Good post.

I want to see puppy mills gone. I want to see the mass production of dogs gone. But what constitutes mass production? Two litters a yr? Five?

How many dogs are too many?

It like pornography, we all know it when we see it... but try to define it.

It's a no win situation.... breed rescues come in and take the dogs, they are in some ways backing up the HSUS. Don't get the dogs out, who knows what will happen to them.

Exactly. Good post Fuzz.

dan v · Post by **dan v** » Sun Sep 06, 2009 9:42 am

While doing some work for the Minnesota Federation of Field Trial Clubs, we found the follow information.

According to market research firm Mediamark Research, Inc., 30 percent of Americans own a dog. Twenty-nine percent own one, two, or three dogs, and 1 percent own four or more. Interestingly, of those with one, two, or three dogs, 26 percent claim annual household incomes of $75,000 and up, and 46 percent own homes worth $100,000 or more.

For the 2000 census, there were roughly 280 million people living in the USA.

Let's use 300 million for easy math...30% of Americans own a dog. Making about 90 million dogs, on the low side.

Just where do you think this number is coming from? It surely isn't from people that frequent this board.

90 million. As much as I deplore puppy mills, one needs to understand that "they" are just filling market demand.

Puppy mills, like the ones that just the attention in the news, are bad....but how much worse are they than "high volume breeders" that AKC wants business from?

stlgsp · Post by **stlgsp** » Sun Sep 06, 2009 9:59 am

I know several are watching this situation but would like some thoughts on how far rescues should go to stop dogs from going into another commercial breeder.

Places like these exist way more than we like to think. I live in Missouri which unfortunatley is known as the puppy mill capital and in the past year local rescues have been inundated with confiscated dogs. It has put a huge strain because of the number of dogs coming in and can they all be placed. The rescue group that took in the MO 75 is just over a year old so luckily groups across the country helped out with taking some in. Since the MO75 there was another group of GSP’s & GWP’s that were in bad shape, some with parvo.

Besides confiscations, another problem that we see around here are kennel auctions which create another delema. Usually it is the small breeds but sometimes the sporting breeds show up. On one hand the rescues would really like to see the dogs get out of the situation and not be sold to another “breeder”. On the other hand are the “breeder” being supported when rescue secretly goes in a buys the dogs at auction with the intention of getting them out. On some occasions rescues have tried to work with the “breeder” up front, especially when they are looking to sell off an entire breed. Some times it works, other times it doesn’t. On a few occasions when they have been notified of a breed sell out. If they want nothing to do with rescue on occasions they have sent in a “secret shopper” to the kennel, worked up a deal for the lot and purchased the dogs. If they go to auction, the rescue bidder has to be discreat otherwise other bidders will try to drive up the price. Some of the rescues have had people that have put up money towards getting these dogs out but they have to go in with a budget and they can’t always get them all. In the past year one of the Vizsla rescues picked up dogs at two different auctions. One they mananged to get all of the dogs. At another they picked up two of six, four of these dogs went for $500 to $1,500 which was more than they could spend. GSP’s do not show up very often but I was notified by another rescue breed rescue group of 4 GSP puppies listed at an auction next weekend.

It is a reall toss up as to how far to go. The puppy market is down which has caused auctions to pick up with commercial “breeders” looking to get out of "unprofitable" breeds. So what are your thoughts - Is it a good use of rescue funds to try to get these dogs out of commercial situations? Should rescue only worry about the shelter dogs, owner turn ins, and confiscations? How far should they go?

CherrystoneWeims · Post by **CherrystoneWeims** » Sun Sep 06, 2009 10:52 am

NONE of the high volume breeders that I know keep their Weims in those kinds of conditions. Or any of the other high volume breeders in other breeds. In fact the high volume competitive Weim breeders (dogs that compete in FT, show, HT, etc many times don't even keep many dogs at their own property! Lots of times the dog will live with someone else as their pet, hunting companion, etc. The breeder does the breeding, whelps the litter at their own home, etc. Some breeders will take the dogs to shows for the owner! This is what I do with many of the pups that I sell if they are close by. I have a breeding planned with a bitch that I sold. I do the work and sell the pups but the people have a great family pet.

CherrystoneWeims · Post by **CherrystoneWeims** » Sun Sep 06, 2009 10:55 am

OnePOne other thing I noted about this breeder. He is selling his pups CKC and APRI registered. Tells me something when pups are sold with those registrations.......

Post by **slistoe** » Sun Sep 06, 2009 3:12 pm

Some of you folks need to really give your head a shake. If there was no commercial market for dogs NO ONE on this board would have a dog. Period.
I did not view the video, but I have lots of pallets in my dog kennel - to control digging. Works well.
The large scale breeders who have an interest in the breed are the ones that are in a position to make a difference to the breeds. Breeds with small time hobby breeders will stagnate. Where would Elhew and Millar dogs be today if they were limited to two or three litters of pups per year? Would anyone know their name? Not likely.

If the dogs were being abused and neglected healthwise then get them out. It does not appear from the comments that that case existed. Otherwise, leave well enough alone. Especially this stupid idea that rescues must prevent other "breeders" from obtaining the dogs. To the extent that a dog I sold was surrendered to a shelter and they would rather put the dog down instead of send it back to me for rehoming. A caring young lady at that shelter did the right thing by the dog and lost her job for it.

ESetterLove · Post by **ESetterLove** » Mon Sep 07, 2009 3:30 am

Please help us reach our fundraising goal so we can continue our work helping save these homeless hunters and other abused and neglected dogs and puppies! We have a long way to go and any amount --big or small--will make a huge difference especially if the dog or puppy is in an area where they use gas chambers to euthanize. We see the worst that humans can do to defenceless animals- but with your donation- we will be able to do more to end the suffering of many frightened dogs and puppies.

The latest ploy from Illinois Birddog Rescue, Inc
Must be that time of year again.

Breed rescues that advertise on "Pet Finder. com" do make me wonder...

shags · Post by **shags** » Mon Sep 07, 2009 6:46 am

Here is the first sentence from from Illinois Bird dog Rescue's mission statement -It is our mission to provide a temporary safe haven and rehabilitation for field bred English Pointers and English Setters found homeless in shelters

They go to shelters and remove dogs to foster homes, and they encourage adopters to use the dogs as hunting partners or to participate in hunt tests.

Don't paint all rescue groups with the same brush. We located our rescue setter on petfinder. The rescue group was thrilled to have her go to a birddoggin' home, and relaxed its rules about local adoptions only (we drove from Ohio to North Carolina to adopt her).

CherrystoneWeims · Post by **CherrystoneWeims** » Mon Sep 07, 2009 8:34 am

Wow Slistoe and ESetter, evidently you have never seen or worked with rescue dogs. Perhaps you should tag along sometime when a breed rescue goes into a mill and gets dogs. Actually you wouldn't even need to do that if you were to go to a foster home and see some of the dogs from mills or bad BYB's.

I have had many pass through my home. Some were so far gone that they couldn't be rehabbed. ANd those dogs thankfully at least had a kind word when I had to take them to "meet their maker". Dogs who had NEVER had human contact except to perhaps have food thrown to them. Dogs who were seized from trailers (old housetrailers) where the feces were so thick inside that you had to wear rubber boots and masks. Can you imagine about 40 dogs crammed into a housetrailer?? We worked with NC rescue on a case just like that.

I fostered a puppy a couple of months ago that was rescued from a very bad BYB. Some folks had seen an ad in the newspaper and were wanting a Weim puppy. THe guy had this pup left over and said that he would give it to them for $50. This pup was in a wire rabbit cage that was much too small for him. They felt bad for him so they took him and called us. Oh yeah the "breeder" had docked his tail but the F***** A@&%*# didn't know what dew claws are. He had cut the pads off behind his ankles!!

This poor pup had never had human contact. He was terrified of EVERYTHING. He was young enough though (about 5 months but he was small due to poor nutrition and parasites) and with lots of love and cuddling from my family he gained trust in humans.

The large scale breeders who have an interest in the breed are the ones that are in a position to make a difference to the breeds. Breeds with small time hobby breeders will stagnate. Where would Elhew and Millar dogs be today if they were limited to two or three litters of pups per year? Would anyone know their name? Not likely.

Let me tell you something I would surely have my Weims even if there were NOT large scale breeders. NONE of my dogs have come from large scale breeders and none in their pedigrees have come from large scale breeders.

Are you so uninformed to think that these mills are breeding for hunting dogs?? Do you really think that they are breeding for good traits in dogs?? They don't give a crap if the dogs can hunt. Do you seriously think that these dogs have EVER even seen a bird??? Many have never even seen the LIGHT OF DAY! THey have learned the lingo to dupe buyers into thinking that they have quality dogs. You can't even begin to compare them with Elhew and Miller. They cared about the breed and tried to breed the best.

ANd what kind of people do you think these mill people are?? I can tell you of a case that is very sad. A stupid breeder that I allowed my stud dog to use on her bitch was duped by a miller. This A$%@&%# was using MY dog to advertise her puppies. My hard work, time, and money. She took this male that is the son of my stud and bred him to EVERY bitch in her kennel. EVERY bitch that came along where people would pay her a stud fee. Now let me tell you the very bad part of it. If the stupid breeder who originally sold her this male puppy had only plugged her name into Google she would have come up with some VERY bad things about this miller. These people had been in trouble for child abuse even before they bought the pup. And now this woman is in prison for MURDER! People who abuse animals will also usually abuse children........

There are some very good dogs on Petfinder. How do you think word can get out to the public as to what dogs are available for adoption??

I am in contact with people who are working on this case. It is NOT a good situation.

IT IS UP TO US TO EDUCATE THE PUBLIC ON HOW TO FIND A GOOD DOG AND A REPUTABLE BREEDER!!!

Post by **slistoe** » Mon Sep 07, 2009 9:06 am

Well Cherrystone, it seems to me you are a little too emotional about this stuff to talk about it. You obviously drew some hard conclusions about me without any knowledge to make them ("evidently have never seen or worked with rescue dogs"). Where is the evidence of that? You also either didn't read or ignored this sentence "If the dogs were being abused and neglected healthwise then get them out." since you go on about horrible abuses by BYB and puppy mills alike. You are right - we should be against people who abuse dogs, but they don't come in a definable package. Getting rid of anyone who breeds more than X # of litters would not get rid of people who abuse dogs. That fact is evidenced in your post just now. The other thing that was evident is that there was no apparent evidence of abuse in the operation that was raided - picking on the fact that there were pallets in the kennel or that some dogs stayed in the kennel instead of coming out to greet strangers and commotion is evidence of nothing - nor is a sick puppy. It may be this was a legitimate raid, but the picture does not look that way.

As to the Weims, if there were not large scale breeding programs there would be no Weimeraner breed. You know yourself how hard it is to get a good working Weim now because there is no one who has the concept of a working Weim at heart and is operating a progressive breeding program with enough dogs to make a significant difference in the breed. One person with the ambition and wherewithal could "fix" the breed in short order. Thank goodness the breeders who had a vision to see a working red dog in the field again weren't just starting out now.

CherrystoneWeims · Post by **CherrystoneWeims** » Mon Sep 07, 2009 9:53 am

The other thing that was evident is that there was no apparent evidence of abuse in the operation that was raided - picking on the fact that there were pallets in the kennel or that some dogs stayed in the kennel instead of coming out to greet strangers and commotion is evidence of nothing - nor is a sick puppy. It may be this was a legitimate raid, but the picture does not look that way.

You do not know the facts about this seizure. I have been given FACTS about the conditions of the dogs from someone who is in contact with an animal control officer who was on the scene....... You even stated that you hadn't watched the videos.......

As to the Weims, if there were not large scale breeding programs there would be no Weimeraner breed.

Quality Weims have never come from puppy mills. The best dogs have come from smaller breeders who are out there testing their dogs. Do you really think that the Germans breed Weimaraners on a large scale?? In Germany there is no such thing as rescue dogs. Dogs are not bred willy nilly in large scale. Breeding is controlled and kept to a minimum. Weimaraners do NOT do well in a large kennel situation. They have been bred to be close to their keepers. I know my breed.

And I didn't say that I am against large scale breeding. In fact I have a couple of friends who breed pointers on a large scale. And they do it quite well. VERY nice conditions. VERY clean conditions. VERY healthy, well-taken care of dogs. NOTHING like the conditions in the video. THese folks probably have at least 70 dogs. But they are out there testing their dogs. Competing with their dogs. Breeding the best to the best unlike puppymills.

And you betcha I am emotional when I see Weimaraners being bred/kept in these conditions. This is my breed and I am very protective of my breed. Do you really think that these "breeders" are mentoring their buyers?? Do you really think that They are educating folks who will be the keepers of the breed in the future?? I can tell you for certain they are NOT doing so! I have run across several folks who have bought pups from the mill who has my dog's son. Some have gotten sick dogs. None have been mentored in the breed. I feel responsible since MY dog is the grandfather so I have mentored some of them.

Post by **ezzy333** » Mon Sep 07, 2009 11:17 am

You do not know the facts about this seizure. I have been given FACTS about the conditions of the dogs from someone who is in contact with an animal control officer who was on the scene.......

Pam, you may be right about whats going on in this case but talking to someone who talked to someone else is not admissable as evidence in anyway. I too am finding it hard to understand what was so bad with this operation or worse yet what kind of evidence did someone have that made this raid justifiable. I do know that when that video was made they were sure to show the very worse problems they could find and I saw nothing that warranted a raid. That doesn't mean there was not something but when they used the excuse that there was a sick puppy, that sure doesn't add up to raid in my book. And whether I agree with the practices of this particular case or not, that is not reason for a raid. People still have the right to be protected from unwarranted search and seizure. Just where is the evidence that made taking action against someone's personal rights the way to act. We need to see the evidence and not what a friend that talked to someone else's friend says about it, especially when that someone is not an unbias observer.

Ezzy