Do you take an untrained GSP hunting

scott_r · Post by **scott_r** » Mon Sep 07, 2009 11:17 pm

I have a young GSP and he's going to be 7 months come pheasant season and am wondering if I should take him out or not. I have him trained to come on command, some whoa training and have shot over him, the gun doesnt bother him one bit. He's got a super soft mouth and is eager to look for critters in the field, Im very excited about him he looks very promising but I know he will not be trained well for this bird season.
So...do I bring him along and let him run with me while I hunt or should I keep him at home?? Im not a die hard bird guy, I enjoy the walks with the dog more then shooting so my expextations are not high but at the same time I don't want him to learn some bad habits.

Cheers!!

twofeathers · Post by **twofeathers** » Tue Sep 08, 2009 12:33 am

JMO, but I think that is a fine way to see his strengths and weaknesses. It will also let him get to learn things about live birds. I have a 11 mo. old GSP and this will be his first season and I will be hunting with him. Are you using birds to train him with? No birds, no great bird dog. Let him have fun this season and don't be too hard on him if he doesn't hold points and chases. Let him be a pup and keep an eye on him to see where more training will be needed. Remeber be patient. AND HAVE FUN!

bobman · Post by **bobman** » Tue Sep 08, 2009 6:14 am

not only yes but absolutely yes

the only thing I would not do is allow a bunch of guys to shoot over him, a dog does not need multiple hunters blazing away over him in his first year, really ever.

SO take him with just you or one trusted friend and take him as many times as you can

good luck

stlgsp · Post by **stlgsp** » Tue Sep 08, 2009 7:24 am

Definitely take him.
Our rule for the dogs first wild bird season is one shot, pointed birds only. I watch them close to make sure they don’t get too tired, especially since the early part of our season can be pretty warm. Birds have been tough the past couple of years here so there may be a lot of walking to find them. We’ll run the more experienced guys to locate the birds and then get the younger guys out for a shorter run in the more productive areas.

gar-dog · Post by **gar-dog** » Tue Sep 08, 2009 7:48 am

My first thought when I read your subject line was "no." But your GSP is NOT untrained... he knows obedience, has been introduced to the gun, etc. So by all means take him out.

Ruffshooter · Post by **Ruffshooter** » Tue Sep 08, 2009 8:17 am

Other than obedience and gun which you are doing: The birds will begin the most important part of his training. They will lay the ground work for your formal yard work and bird work in the future. Go have fun, keep him safe, not too many folks shooting at first, no anger in the field, let him work, explore, sniff, bump, chase etc. don't talk to him too much other than to go home or keep him safe.

birddogger · Post by **birddogger** » Tue Sep 08, 2009 10:39 am

Take him!!!!!!!!!

scott_r · Post by **scott_r** » Tue Sep 08, 2009 3:10 pm

Cool, I was hoping for that

I pretty much hunt alone or with one other trusted friend so I think all will be good!!
Thanks for the advice fellows, apreciate it

Cheers!!

Post by **Ayres** » Tue Sep 08, 2009 8:25 pm

Wild birds can teach a dog a lot. Just don't let him create any bad habits. Remember, when you're training you control each and every situation, and can plan for success and avoid miscues. Not so when you're hunting. Exercise caution, and definitely don't do it with more than a couple guys in the field (you probably won't want to carry a gun, just concentrate on the dog and let someone else do the shooting).

Chasin' Mearns · Post by **Chasin' Mearns** » Tue Sep 08, 2009 9:20 pm

The first season belongs to them to learn from the birds.

Enjoy him - have fun - watch him learn - do not shoot slop over him.

CM

tdhusker · Post by **tdhusker** » Wed Sep 09, 2009 5:15 pm

Heh, heh. To take a hunting dog hunting with you or not . . .

BigShooter · Post by **BigShooter** » Wed Sep 09, 2009 5:54 pm

My hunting companion and I took two GSPs born 4/19 out hunting their first fall. Sharptail season opens the middle of Sept. in ND with the Phz. season opening about 10/10. We didn't count sharps shot but the two GSPs were steady to wing and retrieved at least 60 Phz. we harvested their first year. These two GSPs are littermates to the current two time NGSPA National Champion. Now maybe they had a genetic advantage and decent enough early training but I'm just saying you can do it. Have fun, it should be a great experience for you and the pup!

Post by **Sharon** » Wed Sep 09, 2009 6:00 pm

Wow. That is some litter.

BigShooter · Post by **BigShooter** » Wed Sep 09, 2009 6:15 pm

P.S. One of my four sons & I have three pups from my female mentioned above. These GSP pups were born 5/2/09. We are going to do it again and take another set of young ones out hunting this fall. With more dogs in the truck this time the pups will probably get less exposure than the last time we took young pups out hunting.

pmccumons · Post by **pmccumons** » Wed Sep 09, 2009 8:39 pm

Let the dog have fun and ease your way into it. This will be an enjoyable experience for the both of you. Try your best to set him up for success and make sure you both leave the field happy.

adogslife · Post by **adogslife** » Thu Sep 10, 2009 6:46 am

I would be careful with pheasants as a first bird to learn on. They may create habits in your dog that may be tough to break when the season is over.

BigShooter · Post by **BigShooter** » Thu Sep 10, 2009 8:29 am

adogslife wrote:I would be careful with pheasants as a first bird to learn on. They may create habits in your dog that may be tough to break when the season is over.

This could be a good point though it's hard to say without adogslife explaining the unique problems he sees with pheasants that may create habits that are tough to break later. If he would explain maybe the OP would be able to watch out for or avoid the creation of these bad habits.

adogslife · Post by **adogslife** » Thu Sep 10, 2009 8:50 am

A young dog with no experience will have no idea how to pin pheasants. They will run and fustrate a dog and at the same time there will be many unproductive points. And you will have a dog running wild chasing,which sucks.All not what I want a puppy to learn from birds. I am assuming the owner and friends will not shoot non-pointed birds? If you do, you're creating additional issues to be dealt with.
Hunters need to decide what they want in their dog. If they only want a dog that will point,scare up birds for the gun then this is a perfect scenario. If you are wanting a more finished product where the dog handles and is safe then I would wait until the dog has more experience with other varieties of birds. Birds that teach a dog to hold point and don't breath - or I'm outta here.

Sir Buckwheat · Post by **Sir Buckwheat** » Thu Sep 10, 2009 9:06 am

Make sure you take pics while your hunting with him this year. Nothing funner than looking back at pics of your dogs first year when he's entering his last. The memories will last a lifetime...

bobman · Post by **bobman** » Thu Sep 10, 2009 10:29 am

I guess after roughly 40 years of training GSPs on wild pheasants one of these mysterious maladies everyone frets about would of actually happened to me so far they haven't. I guess iv'e owned at least 35 GSPs in my life and trained many more for friends and every single pup has learned to hunt pheasants its first year some of them at just a few months of age. Almost all of my hunting is for pheasants.

I often look at hunting and hunters today and wonder how we got to the point that the crazy idea that taking a young hunting dog hunting is somehow going to ruin him :roll: . Let the pup learn his trade and let him be a pup he will figure it out, dogs are born knowing how to hunt, pointers are born to point you dont teach them that they either do or they dont.... period.

You have only one thing to worry about and its not allowing alot of shooting over the dog just one shot per bird and make sure the pups watching the bird so he sees it fall and it will all be fine. Hunt by yourself and let the dog figure it out he will.

The idea that hunting pheasants ruins pups for other birds is utter nonsense also all my dogs adjust to quail sharptails and ruffed grouse just fine thats another bit o nonsense.

put that dog on as many wild birds as you can of every species you can every chance you have and you will have a bird dog , a good one

adogslife · Post by **adogslife** » Thu Sep 10, 2009 10:41 am

I didn't say hunting pheasants ruins pups, I said it teaches them what I don't want a young and inexperienced pup to learn.
Maybe as a trainer and experienced hunter you are knowledgeable and experienced enough to work out the kinks but maybe the OP is not as skillful and talented as you?

bobman · Post by **bobman** » Thu Sep 10, 2009 10:43 am

I'll add one more thing GSPs are versatile dogs which basically means they can and will hunt everything all critters are game to dogs, we humans are the ones that get these silly specific animal ideas in our heads.

My shorthairs have had days where I've killed rabbits, woodcock, deer, quail and ducks in the same afternoon over them everyone of them except the ducks were pointed.

Over the years I have often hunted with my 12 x 12 x 3006 drilling and have a lot of fun just "hunting" for anything we migh come across just like when I was a kid, its my favorite gun and my favorite way to hunt.

Too bad its not legal in many of the Northern states I hunt or I would have some huge trophy deer on the wall

bobman · Post by **bobman** » Thu Sep 10, 2009 10:45 am

adogslife wrote:I didn't say hunting pheasants ruins pups, I said it teaches them what I don't want a young and inexperienced pup to learn.
Maybe as a trainer and experienced hunter you are knowledgeable and experienced enough to work out the kinks but maybe the OP is not as skillful and talented as you?

The birds teach the dogs, not you not me, handling them is good for the dogs they have to do so to figure it out through experience

adogslife · Post by **adogslife** » Thu Sep 10, 2009 11:34 am

Preach what you like but you may be misleading some readers.
The average GSP bred in America is not as versatile as some like to believe. Quality and a standard of work counts for something, otherwise you can use a lab to do all that.
It is the age of the pup, the experience of the pup and how much training , after a season of working only pheasants, will be required and if the OP is capable of training out possible bad habits that is of concern, not whether or not the dog can eventually learn to work the birds. Grouse,woodcock are much better birds to start on,chukar are runners, too and I'd be careful there too.

twofeathers · Post by **twofeathers** » Thu Sep 10, 2009 12:04 pm

I think this guy is out to sell dogs, not hunt.......... First of all as previosly stated

bobman wrote:My shorthairs have had days where I've killed rabbits, woodcock, deer, quail and ducks in the same afternoon over them everyone of them except the ducks were pointed.

GET OVER YOURSELF WITH YOUR PERFECT DOG....... I would like to personally invite you to hunt over some. You are supposed to do this for fun............ NOT BRAGGING RIGHTS.... WHEN THE GOOD LORD LAYS ME DOWN......I WILL HAVE ENJOYED WHAT HE BLESSED ME WITH>....... CANT TAKE A TROPHEY

bobman · Post by **bobman** » Thu Sep 10, 2009 12:13 pm

I've never sold a dog in my life and never will, and I obviously dont breed dogs either, you see any links from me to anything??.

and any GSP of decent breeding from virtually any breeder on this board could do what I stated if given a chance so can brittanies and probably alot of other breeds.

Thats my whole point its not a big deal for a dog to hunt they all do it naturally if you give them the opportunity and let them. Heck I once had a german shepard lab cross that would hunt all those species I mentioned and do it well and he got no formal training other than basic obediance

twofeathers · Post by **twofeathers** » Thu Sep 10, 2009 12:17 pm

bobman I wasn't speaking of you , just using your fun as an exampe.

twofeathers · Post by **twofeathers** » Thu Sep 10, 2009 12:20 pm

I was speaking of adogslife....... My GSP gets looked down on because of his German heritage and his black and white patched and ticked color as in my avitar...........I HUNT I DONT DO HORSE AND PONY SHOWS. Sorry if you thought I was talking about you

bobman · Post by **bobman** » Thu Sep 10, 2009 12:29 pm

dont worry about it, I didn't.

I know i'm right

twofeathers · Post by **twofeathers** » Thu Sep 10, 2009 12:35 pm

THNX, BY the way your avitar, Liver or black?

bobman · Post by **bobman** » Thu Sep 10, 2009 12:39 pm

liver

Hes a DK a guy gave me because he couldn't deal with him..... I fixed most of his nuttiness and he is a great phez dog

Hes a good boy.

adogslife · Post by **adogslife** » Thu Sep 10, 2009 12:49 pm

bobman and twofeathers,
what the he** are you talking about?????
Do you expect anyone to take the two of you seriously?

twofeathers · Post by **twofeathers** » Thu Sep 10, 2009 1:08 pm

Mine has DK lineage also, so much fun!!!

adogslife · Post by **adogslife** » Thu Sep 10, 2009 1:20 pm

If you understood anything about the dogs you own and their heritage you would understand much more. If you undersatood what reputable breeders,of any gundog breed, go thru to breed fine gundogs you would understand much more.
Chastised for owning a dog who has German lineage and is black? Never heard of such a thing.
What the hey, you could get one of those GSD/Lab crosses if you get tired of the insults.

birddogger · Post by **birddogger** » Thu Sep 10, 2009 2:34 pm

bobman wrote:I guess after roughly 40 years of training GSPs on wild pheasants one of these mysterious maladies everyone frets about would of actually happened to me so far they haven't. I guess iv'e owned at least 35 GSPs in my life and trained many more for friends and every single pup has learned to hunt pheasants its first year some of them at just a few months of age. Almost all of my hunting is for pheasants.

I often look at hunting and hunters today and wonder how we got to the point that the crazy idea that taking a young hunting dog hunting is somehow going to ruin him :roll: . Let the pup learn his trade and let him be a pup he will figure it out, dogs are born knowing how to hunt, pointers are born to point you dont teach them that they either do or they dont.... period.

You have only one thing to worry about and its not allowing alot of shooting over the dog just one shot per bird and make sure the pups watching the bird so he sees it fall and it will all be fine. Hunt by yourself and let the dog figure it out he will.

The idea that hunting pheasants ruins pups for other birds is utter nonsense also all my dogs adjust to quail sharptails and ruffed grouse just fine thats another bit o nonsense.

put that dog on as many wild birds as you can of every species you can every chance you have and you will have a bird dog , a good one

Good post, bobman!
Take him hunting, let him have fun and get bird crazy!! That is the first step in training a bird dog. IMO!
Charlie

bobman · Post by **bobman** » Thu Sep 10, 2009 4:10 pm

twofeathers wrote:Mine has DK lineage also, so much fun!!!

hes sure a beautiful dog in that picture

dont let him near any evil pheasants

(just kidding) actaully shoot a few and post some pictures for me.

I was in a accident about a month ago and wont be able to walk without crutches until January and Lord knows I want to go chase some pheasants so bad I can taste it

with a little luck I might be able to catch the last two weeks in Kansas this year

nitrex · Post by **nitrex** » Thu Sep 10, 2009 11:11 pm

I say keep him home from hunting and do your introductory field work (intro to birds and guns), yard work, and then put it together in a controlled environment. IMO there ain't one top level pro trainer that believes wild birds will teach a dog to hold point or be stw&s. They all have extensive puppy and yard work programs that develop the dogs when they are young and then take it to the field to mesh the yard work with the field.

IMO if he chases wild bird for a year, you will put more pressure on him to break him stw&s later. More pressure = less style.

Nitrex

gar-dog · Post by **gar-dog** » Fri Sep 11, 2009 1:54 pm

I advised him to take the dog out, but Nitrex you do bring up a good point in my opinion. But it really depends upon his ultimate goals for the dog.

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