GSPCA Members, Vote to Qualify Black in the Breed Standard

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AHGSP
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GSPCA Members, Vote to Qualify Black in the Breed Standard

Post by AHGSP » Thu Oct 20, 2005 11:34 am

Dear Fellow GSPCA Members,

At the June meeting it was decided to put a vote before the Membership to include the color Black in the Breed Standard after the language has been decided on with the assistance of the AKC.

The reason this is being put to vote is that members have asked why there is a disqualification in the United States but not in other countries and how this disqualification could be removed.

After investigating this issue, I have come to believe the following quote's from Westwind Kennels "Breed History" page and submit these quotes for your consideration. (Quoted with permission from Gary Hutchinson, Westwind Kennels)
"Oddly, when the breed was first recognized and records of actual breedings were being kept the Kurzaar hadn’t even developed into a recognizable type. The result being that our modern Greman Shorthair genepool comes from many different sources. The drawings and early photos of Kurzhaars clearly show this. Some of them were:

Hector I whelped in 1872 – the No 1 entry in the original German Studbook - was white and liver. Yes, there have always been white and liver German Shorthairs. Many of the early German breeders would dunk the whites because they didn’t want their Deutsch Kurzhaar to resemble the English Pointer. Much to their frustration they were unable to eliminate the white coats. What they didn’t understand was that white is a recessive gene that is carried by animals that aren’t white themselves - like red hair and blue eyes in humans.

Feldmann I, an early experimental animal, who looked more like a Basset Hound was tri-colored. Yes, there are still a few tri-colors born today - although most are quickly killed by ignorant breeders who assume that something they didn’t know about must have happened at breeding. NFC/FC Patrica von Frulord who won both National Field Trial Championships in 1971 was a tri-color. Normally a tri-color will have a small patch or two that is tan in color.

Treff 1010 whelped in 1881 - an important early dog used for his energy and drive - was solid brown. Because the patching gene that allows a dog to be a solid color is a dominant gene every solid dog alive today will trace back to him.

In 1912, fearing loss of pigmentation and eye color, the Germans outcrossed to the solid black Arkwright Pointers. It is from this cross to the magnificent solid black Pointers done in Prussia that we get the black dogs of today. Carried for some time in a separate Prussian Kurzhaar Stud Book these dogs have for generations been recognized as Kurzhaars in Germany. Because black is a dominant gene one of the parents of every black Kurzhaar had to have been black. Some of the great German dogs of the past generation trace directly back to this influx of pure pointer genes.

Inside Germany the Kurzhaar underwent tremendous consolidation following WWI, with breed development reaching a crescendo of incredible progress by the 1930s. The German National Dog had finally arrived and it started to draw the interest of sportsmen from around the world. The German breeders were ecstatic that people who had been importing dogs from England, Ireland and France for years were finally interested in their dog. Their response was to put their best foot forward and send some of their very best blood to the United States, Denmark and England. Interestingly they sent no blacks and only a few solid brown dogs to the US and a large number of really nice white and liver dogs to Denmark.

It was from the dogs originally sent to Dr Thorton of Wyoming as early as 1925 as well as Jack Shattuck of Minnesota, Joseph Burkhart of Wisconsin and Walter Mangold of Nebraska in the 1930s that our breed standard was written. Which is why black and tri-color were expressly excluded from the AKC breed standard even though they were clearly being registered in Germany at the time."

I am also of the belief, that the reason the Black Shorthairs were originally kept in a seperate Stud book in Germany, was quite simply, that until they had bred the Black Shorthairs back to the 15/16th of true to form GSP/DK, there needed to be a seperation to prevent the Arkwright Pointer from becoming a dominant feature of the, then being developed, GSP/DK. This, of course, is only my opinion and not necessarily the fact

I am not starting this thread to create a controversial argument and therefore will not participate in such an argument. I only submit these thoughts to you so that you may make your vote based on, perhaps, a bit of background info I have found to be the most logical reason why Black was originally excluded from the Breed Standard which our club, the GSPCA, originally proposed and placed into order.

Should this become a topic that cannot be discussed rationally, I ask that the moderators remove it for the betterment of the BB.

Thanx Kindly for Your Consideration of this Post,
Sincerely,
Bruce
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Post by TAK » Thu Oct 20, 2005 9:14 pm

Bruce Great reading! I find this interesting? "Feldmann I, an early experimental animal, who looked more like a Basset Hound was tri-colored. Yes, there are still a few tri-colors born today - although most are quickly killed by ignorant breeders who assume that something they didn’t know about must have happened at breeding. NFC/FC Patrica von Frulord who won both National Field Trial Championships in 1971 was a tri-color. Normally a tri-color will have a small patch or two that is tan in color.

I have seen a pup that came from two white and liver parents that had a tan mark on the coat. Very interesting!

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Post by snips » Thu Oct 20, 2005 10:10 pm

My Rip was bred to a female in Mi and they had a pup that had a tan spot. She was just sold with a limited Reg.
brenda

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Post by sudiegirl » Fri Oct 21, 2005 8:50 am

it certainly is interesting reading, and here are my thoughts and questions:
since the GERMANS did develop this dog initially (hence GERMAN shorthaired pointer)
and they DID include black during the developmental phase of the breed (let's remember how young this breed really is)
and there are BLACK DK's b/c of an outcross to another breed during a developmental phase of the breed designed to improve it in some way shape or form
and since all gsp's (in THEORY) came from dk's
then shouldn't the akc include black gsp's too?
maybe, if the akc and the gspc does not want black dogs, then they should call the breed AMERICAN shorthaired pointers and not GERMAN shorthaired pointers.... because the german side of the german shorthair clearly includes black... and some of these black dogs are fabulous dogs too!!!
this goes back to the question of whether or not the DK and the german shorthaired pointer are different breeds. if they ARE the same breed, then why are the breeding standards so very different? if they are the same, then why not include black?

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Post by snips » Fri Oct 21, 2005 9:03 am

You Go girl! I could not agree more!
brenda

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Post by Wagonmaster » Fri Oct 21, 2005 9:15 am

That the breed includes black dogs is supported also in the Maxwell book, and in Der Deutsch Kurzhaar, which says the same things as the Westwind site. Am not looking at the book, but if memory serves, the tri-color dogs are of older vintage even than the Arkwright pointers, and there were blacks as well, long before the Arkwrights.

I posted this before, but here are four of the five main coat color variations that exist today, from the cover of Der Deutsch Kurzhaar (the fifth being the "clear" or non-ticked white coat, with liver or black patches):

Image

Coat color is not relevant to me. Performance is. Looks to me as if the AKC standard was a snapshot of what the breed was thought to be, at a point in time, that was not a very accurate snapshot. The standard should be brought up to date to conform with the rest of the world.

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Post by AHGSP » Fri Oct 21, 2005 9:36 am

Wow, Thanx for all the great feedback, I hope that this means you folks are in support of this vote and I hope you will pass the info on to others who are GSPCA Members that will have a voice in this vote!

Tak,

I'm glad you enjoyed the reading, I've been studying the Breed History for 2 years now trying to learn as much of the history as I can and I haven't begun to put a dent in the knowledge that the 20 and 30 yr. experienced breeders have, but hey, you gotta start somewhere! I added the info about Hector1, Feldmann1 and Treff1010 for the interest factor. I thought some may find it interesting.

Snips,

I don't want to be hypocritical, but I am glad that the Tri-color was sold limited. I don't think the Tri-color was an intended color combination, but rather, a recessive that may show from time to time as recessives are wanton to do!

Sudiegirl,

What Brenda said! You go! Ps. Is that a DK or a GSP in your avatar? :wink: :wink: :lol:

John,

I do not have the Maxwell book, but have heard it is a very good read... How do you rate it? I do have "The Complete German Shorthaired Pointer" by Seiger and Dewitz-Colpin and it follows along the line of what you state. I do believe like you, that the "Standard" was but a snapshot of what was believed to be the "German Shorthaired Pointer". It is due time to make the standard accurately reflect what the GSP/DK is and quit treating the Black dogs like the proverbial "Red Headed Step-child"

Thanx Kindly for Your Interest Folks,
Bruce
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Post by Wagonmaster » Fri Oct 21, 2005 12:33 pm

Bruce-

Can I ask, is there some big opposition to this, and if so, what is the nature of it?

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Post by TAK » Fri Oct 21, 2005 1:14 pm

The Tri that I know about is also non preductive(Spaid) I can say this she is a heck of a hunter!

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Post by TAK » Fri Oct 21, 2005 1:19 pm

I think Bruce handled this post perfect as I think that it could go south fast.
I am with you WagonMaster performance is not in the color! It is no secret that I am not a big fan of a Black GSP but to each there own. Bruce has givin history and great information supporting the move. If my vote mattered I would do what I could do to help.

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Post by Wagonmaster » Fri Oct 21, 2005 1:58 pm

Roger that, Tak. I would not personally be a big fan of the solid black. But the pointers I had were black and white, and if you could get run in em, I sure would not be averse to a nice black and white shorthair.

I was pleased and surprised with the Maxwell book, but Der Deutsch Kurzhaar, by Georgina Byrne, is really nice. Lots of good pictures and a thorough and balanced text, I thought. Was an eye-opener for me, in terms of the development of the breed, and esp. coat colors and types.

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Post by AHGSP » Sat Oct 22, 2005 10:06 pm

Thanx for the support guys, I didn't post this to start a fight and want to keep it "North of the Border" :D

John,
To answer your question: It is my understanding that the board has talked about this before and it has always been shot down....
Truth be known, there is only one venue that this change would affect and that would be Conformation. Currently, a Black GSP can compete in every other venue currently open to GSP's, except Conformation Events. With the widespread use of DNA Mapping currently in use, there really is no longer a valid reason to prevent a Black GSP from entering the Showring and thus, being able to possibly go after a coveted DC.
Thanx for the review of those books, I've been wanting to get a copy of Maxwells "The New German Shorthaired Pointer" (have got to glance through a copy) and will be looking into the "Der Deutsch Kurzhaar" as well.

Thanx Again Folks and Have A Great Night,
Bruce
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"If you do what you've always done, you'll get what you've always gotten"
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Post by Wagonmaster » Sun Oct 23, 2005 6:39 am

I believe I saw that Maxwell was admitted to the GSPCA HoF.

The Der Deutsch Kurzhaar book, though, has a much more thorough treatment of coat color in the GSP.

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Post by Richard *UT* » Sun Oct 23, 2005 7:30 pm

I love posts like this. Very informative, a place for others to contribute, everyone staying calm. It is great! Also for those newbies like me, it is a wealth of info. Thanks for posting it. Also thanks for the info on the books.

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