Making and All Age trial dog

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MTO4Life
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Making and All Age trial dog

Post by MTO4Life » Tue Sep 15, 2009 7:39 pm

Hi All,

I have a question, more just to hear thoughts on the topic than anything. What does it take to make an All Age dog? I don't me, how to train it, but is it genetics, or is it in the training you do, and how you bring out the independence? Is it possible to have an all age dog, but train it down to a gun dog level and not have it revent to it's 'all-age' ways?? Just curious more than anything as I only have one dog on the trial circuit (who is obviously headed toward countless National championships!). I'm just kidding on the last part, in case anyone was wondering as trials are definately a humbling experience :oops: ! That being said, what is involved in the making of the 'all-age' dog? I realize they are bigger runners, so we can leave that out! Comments?

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Re: Making and All Age trial dog

Post by Hotpepper » Tue Sep 15, 2009 7:54 pm

2XNFC Allage winner Willows on the Spot has won 19 championship titles and he sleeps on his owner bed and is hunted from foot on a regular basis. Has been that way all of his life of 7 years.

My dog FC/AFC Dunfur's Hoosier LB has won the hour championships 10 times and runs to what the cover is. Both of these dogs have plenty of brains and the ability to get it done whether they are trialed or hunted.

A dog that is pushed into running allage will soon be lost everytime they turn them loose. It is a very natural ability and the very good ones are few and far between, there are a good number of good allage dogs.

Dogs this help you or if you have additional myself and the guys on here will try to answer your questions.

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Re: Making and All Age trial dog

Post by MTO4Life » Tue Sep 15, 2009 8:02 pm

Hotpepper wrote: Both of these dogs have plenty of brains and the ability to get it done whether they are trialed or hunted.

A dog that is pushed into running allage will soon be lost everytime they turn them loose. It is a very natural ability and the very good ones are few and far between, there are a good number of good allage dogs.
I understand that any exceptional dog uses their brains, but it seems that truly exceptional AA dogs aren't as common as it may seem. Maybe I'm wrong in saying that, and I'm not diminishing what the AA dogs out there do. It's impressive, but to come across the one that makes people sit up and say WOW, they seem to be not as common. Is this due to genetics, or is it in the training? It would seem that it is just 'the dog' and what they are born with. Is this correct? That being said, can someone take a great Gun Dog and 'make' it a good AA dog?? I'm quite new to the trial scene, so I'm trying to gain some understanding on the workings of the two divisions....

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Re: Making and All Age trial dog

Post by RayGubernat » Tue Sep 15, 2009 8:58 pm

MTO -

It is, in my humble opinion...all about the genetics. The dog has got to have what it takes to run to the front and yet stay in touch. Youtrain that in...the dog has to have it.


It does take a special handler/trainer to bring that fully out in a dog. The all age trainer has to allow the dog to be as independent as it can be. It is a wonderful, but also a very really uncomfortable feeling...watching a dog fade out of sight, and wondering when,or if you are ever going to see that sucker again. Not everyone is prepared to let a dog go quite that much and not everyone is ready for that level of discomfort. It also takes room...lots of it... for a dog to bloosom into the independent seeker of game that it must be to succeed as an all age dog.

RayG

PS -

To answer your question I will say that it is far, far more likely that a good all age dog can be dialed down to deliver a gun dog race than the other way 'round. It will and does take a very special dog to be able to change gears quite that dramatically, especially in areas where the Gun Dog venues are small and /or tight.
Last edited by RayGubernat on Tue Sep 15, 2009 9:04 pm, edited 8 times in total.

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Re: Making and All Age trial dog

Post by topher40 » Tue Sep 15, 2009 9:02 pm

Its all breeding, you cant train a dog to run. The biggest thing to AA dogs is run, second is finding birds out on a limb and holding them. No amount of training can make an AA dog, pure and simple. It does take the right trainer to develop it though.
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Re: Making and All Age trial dog

Post by Neil » Tue Sep 15, 2009 11:22 pm

A top dog of any type is rare by definition. My observations says less than 5% hunting dogs, 3% gun dog/shooting dog, less than 1% All-Age.

Much of shaping a true All-Age is their first 15 months, they must be stimulated to learn, but great care must be taken to not take anything out, truly you cannot put anything in without taking something out, but you must put a lot in them. It is a hard balance. You want drive, endurance, speed, class, style and lots of independence, but they must stay with you and always swing to the front.

Sure they must have the genetics, but many have that, it is how they are nurtured that is so vital to the future success. I estimate it takes upwards of 10 hours of work a week for over a year. You have to work very hard, but being smart is more important. You must know what to do, when to do it, and how much and how often.

Joe Don House and Gary Lester have the very best breeding, have great facilities, work their butts off (and that of their trainer's, Ike Todd) developing young dogs, and only about 1% of them make it each year. But the ones that do are worth 30 - 40 thousand. If they were not rare, they wouldn't be worth 500 dollars.

Neil

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Re: Making and All Age trial dog

Post by MTO4Life » Wed Sep 16, 2009 6:09 am

Neil..

So when you tell me they have to be careful with how they train to be sure not to take anything away, is that when they break they dog? I know my bitch had a lot of run as a derby, but when the trainer started breaking her, she came in quite a bit. It took some good wild bird running in Kansas this summer, but she's just starting to find those legs again. The trainer said the wild birds probably helped her find that confidence a bit quicker, and it let her gain some independence again.

Does it take a trainer longer to break an AA dog to ensure that the dog never loses this 'big run'?

Sorry for all these questions, but it is a foreign thing to me, this AA thing... quite fascinating though.

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Re: Making and All Age trial dog

Post by Joe Amatulli » Wed Sep 16, 2009 6:48 am

An All Age dog is not made they are born, you can not take a gun dog and turn it into an all age nor can you take an all age and turn it to a gun dog. It is more a state of mind than anything else and that is why they are so difficult to get, some try to breed for them, but I don’t think that anyone has quite figured out how to get one. The trick is to know when you do have one and how to train to enhance all age qualities, they are not as easy to recognize as you may think, it is NOT all about run its about how they go about doing what they do. I have had a lot of people tell me that there dog is an all age when quite often all they are is either run offs or just big running shooting dogs with little or no handle. There was a point in my life that I could define exactly what an all age dog was and than I got one and knew that those definitions were all bull you can not define an all age, its like porn when you see it you will know it, just one of those things that you need to experience to under stand. Also all age seem to differ with the different breeds, why I don’t know, to me an all age is an all age a shooting is a shooting dog and so on. I will also say that I believe that there are more all age dogs born than you may see only because so few people want them and ruin them trying to make them into gun dogs.

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Re: Making and All Age trial dog

Post by myerstenn » Wed Sep 16, 2009 6:54 am

Usually most dogs will come in a little during the breaking process. If all goes well they usually regain there range. Genetics isthe key to breeding all-age dogs. you 're not going to make a big line running dog out of one that want to quarter, there is alaways an exception or two though.

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Re: Making and All Age trial dog

Post by RayGubernat » Wed Sep 16, 2009 7:48 am

MTO -

What can be confusing is that there are two designations of all age dogs. There is the AKC all age category and the American Field All age dog. Rest assured...they are different.

In my geographic area, the East, there really are no places to even let an AF all age dog go. there are a few that are close to adequate, but darn few. To really appreciate what an all age dog is...you need a boatload of ground.

Again im my geographic area, the AKC all age dogs that I have seen equate roughly to , at best, a big running shooting dog. Most do not even have that scope of ground application.

If you want to see some pretty big running shooting dogs, go down to Baldwinsville, NY over the last of Oct. for the Pheasant Shooting dog Championships and futurity. Some of these dogs fill up the country pretty well, but they are not, by any stretch, all age dogs, but rather AF Shooting dogs. Very few AKC all age dogs could stay with the biggere running shooting dogs you will see up there. Some can, that is for certain...but they are few and far betweeen.

I guess the biggest difference between a shooting dog and an all age dog, for me is how they go through the country. The ideal shooting dog ground application, for me, can be described as hunting its way forward in an intelligent manner. The all age dog, on the other hand looks up...sees and objective that might hold birds... and goes more or less directly to it.

They both have to keep tabs on and maintain contact with their handler, but where the shooting dog may well swing back across and even loop part way back toward the handler, the all age dog's concept of keeping in touch will be more like popping out to make sure the handler is still coming with a quick glance... and then heading over the hill...again.

As Joe said, you know it when you see it. It is somewhat a state of mind.

RayG

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Re: Making and All Age trial dog

Post by BigShooter » Wed Sep 16, 2009 9:06 am

John (Wagonmaster) must be busy right now otherwise I would have expected him to post. Out of the litter of seven that produced Spot, the 2X NC Jerry talked about above, there were five pups (including Spot) that we followed. Of the other four, John will tell you one of the other males would've given Spot a real run for his money. This male was never trialed. Another male was a boot licker as a pup. For other, personal, reasons the owner had top stop trialing him for a few years but he recently begin trialing again and this dog is getting it done at age 7. The remaining two females were never trialed but John will tell you they would've been at least honest shooting dogs, without a doubt. So I will tell you genetics is first in importance. However, if everyone knew how to get the right breeding together to get one of those special AA National Champs, more people would be producing these special dogs. Was it luck or skill that carried the day when John put the breeding together AND Spot was the male John kept from the litter of seven? You could probably ask the same thing about Amatulli and his dogs.

Spot started training at a young age with Greg Dixon in WI. Greg is a very good trainer, probably more well known for his work with Wirehairs. Although Greg trials a lot, he tends to stay on smaller grounds, closer to home. Spot was one point shy of his FC when Greg & John talked and decided Spot needed to be run on larger grounds. Greg recommended that John move the dog out to Eldon Hongo, who lived and handled dogs in the West. JMHO, great training (or trainers) is second in importance.

Big, wide open spaces are required for the AA dog to reach its true potential.

Obviously horseback trials, building and running AA dogs isn't cheap. Money isn't everything, but it sure helps !!
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Re: Making and All Age trial dog

Post by topher40 » Wed Sep 16, 2009 9:28 am

Very well put Ray. :wink: Until a person see's one run you wont ever know what any of this talk really amounts to.
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Re: Making and All Age trial dog

Post by Sharon » Wed Sep 16, 2009 10:14 am

RayGubernat wrote:MTO -


I guess the biggest difference between a shooting dog and an all age dog, for me is how they go through the country. The ideal shooting dog ground application, for me, can be described as hunting its way forward in an intelligent manner. The all age dog, on the other hand looks up...sees and objective that might hold birds... and goes more or less directly to it.

They both have to keep tabs on and maintain contact with their handler, but where the shooting dog may well swing back across and even loop part way back toward the handler, the all age dog's concept of keeping in touch will be more like popping out to make sure the handler is still coming with a quick glance... and then heading over the hill...again.


RayG
Now that is one of the clearest explanations I've ever read and very true. Thanks. We have an AA trial at the Canadian Championship here. Remarkable dogs.
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Re: Making and All Age trial dog

Post by Elroy's Bandit » Wed Sep 16, 2009 10:44 am

RayGubernat wrote:MTO -

I guess the biggest difference between a shooting dog and an all age dog, for me is how they go through the country. The ideal shooting dog ground application, for me, can be described as hunting its way forward in an intelligent manner. The all age dog, on the other hand looks up...sees and objective that might hold birds... and goes more or less directly to it.

They both have to keep tabs on and maintain contact with their handler, but where the shooting dog may well swing back across and even loop part way back toward the handler, the all age dog's concept of keeping in touch will be more like popping out to make sure the handler is still coming with a quick glance... and then heading over the hill...again.

As Joe said, you know it when you see it. It is somewhat a state of mind.

RayG
Well Put Ray! One of the most concise explanations I've read on this subject.
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Re: Making and All Age trial dog

Post by MTO4Life » Wed Sep 16, 2009 4:12 pm

Elroy's Bandit wrote:
RayGubernat wrote:MTO -

I guess the biggest difference between a shooting dog and an all age dog, for me is how they go through the country. The ideal shooting dog ground application, for me, can be described as hunting its way forward in an intelligent manner. The all age dog, on the other hand looks up...sees and objective that might hold birds... and goes more or less directly to it.

They both have to keep tabs on and maintain contact with their handler, but where the shooting dog may well swing back across and even loop part way back toward the handler, the all age dog's concept of keeping in touch will be more like popping out to make sure the handler is still coming with a quick glance... and then heading over the hill...again.

As Joe said, you know it when you see it. It is somewhat a state of mind.

RayG
Well Put Ray! One of the most concise explanations I've read on this subject.
Bill L.

I agree.... that is a nice concise answer to the two. I run AKC stakes, and that is fine for me as I run a Britt... not exactly known for their run compared to the EP's, so that is why I was asking the question. I guess I'm gonna have to head west to see some true AA runs....

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Re: Making and All Age trial dog

Post by RayGubernat » Wed Sep 16, 2009 4:47 pm

MTO -

Do not be too awful hasty about heading so far west there fella. If you want to see some pretty hallacious running Brittanys, stop down to the English Setter Club when either Marsha and Joe Luisi or Paul Pollock are running dogs. They have Brits that can carry the mail. I saw a couple of dogs owned by the Perrys, who are also Setter Club members that can pick them up and lay them down also.

If some of the NGSPA guys are there, they have some big running shorthairs as well.

My point is that there are dogs that can push the envelope in just about every breed. Not all that many , perhaps, but they are there.

RayG

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