EP What line? best bird finders

birdogg42 · Post by **birdogg42** » Sun Dec 13, 2009 9:00 pm

From what you guys and gals have seen or trained. What line of pointers are the best bird finders?

mike

Post by **ezzy333** » Sun Dec 13, 2009 9:39 pm

birdogg42 wrote:From what you guys and gals have seen or trained. What line of pointers are the best bird finders?

mike

If one line was better than the others everyone would have one and the other lines would rapidly disappear. Bird dogs find birds and most pointers I have ever seen do a good job of doing just that.

Ezzy

birdogg42 · Post by **birdogg42** » Sun Dec 13, 2009 9:47 pm

ezzy333 wrote:
birdogg42 wrote:From what you guys and gals have seen or trained. What line of pointers are the best bird finders?

mike
If one line was better than the others everyone would have one and the other lines would rapidly disappear. Bird dogs find birds and most pointers I have ever seen do a good job of doing just that.

Ezzy

So you are sayin that every pointer you have seen and trained was just as good at findin birds as the other?

lvrgsp · Post by **lvrgsp** » Sun Dec 13, 2009 10:03 pm

In no order......Branscum, Slate Creek Doc, Fiddler, Lancelot.....
JMO..

birdogg42 · Post by **birdogg42** » Sun Dec 13, 2009 10:09 pm

lvrgsp wrote:In no order......Branscum, Slate Creek Doc, Fiddler, Lancelot.....
JMO..

Thank you

Perdido · Post by **Perdido** » Sun Dec 13, 2009 10:31 pm

That was a flippant answer and not called for.

Set out a goal and the parameters you have to operate under:

!) What's in your budget?
a) How much travel are you willing to do?
b) Shipping? Are you willing to trust the breeder to pick a puppy for you?
c) How old of a puppy are you willing to deal with?
These are questions that will definitely affect the price the breeder and you will arrive at.

2) How much training are you expecting to put into the project?
a) Start with a 49 day old puppy, the price will probably be near best.
b) Take an older puppy, less choice in the 'pick', the pup may not be well socialized.
c) Take an older puppy, he may have had some training or even some serious training and socialization. Expect to pay more.

3)Breeding.
a) Field Trials
b) Kennels for Gun Dogs
c) Back yard breeders

a:1 ) Field Trials are run for the specific purpose of improving the breed. All dogs are moving back to the average of the gene pool from the first breeding of
the winner. It's inexorable, but the idea is to slowly move the gene pool toward the desirable characteristics. A dog from a champion line of Field Trial Dogs will likely have a very good nose and be smarter. But they're going to have a lot of run. And not a lot of guys can handle a dog with a ton of run. It takes a lot of careful work to reel in a big going dog with out making them blinky or shy. They can drive you crazy.

b:1) Gun Dogs from Kennels. These dogs are going to be selected for the regular hunter. They'll have good noses and bird smarts because that's what the breeder is looking to sell. He won't sell many dogs if they are unmanageable. They probably won't have the nose and work ethic of a Trial Dog but I'd bet very few avid bird hunters would appreciate the difference. You can get very tightly bred trial dogs from a lot of gun dog breeders as most are introducing the proven lines back into their kennels.

c:1 Backyarders. You'll most likely see the mom and dad. Still this is going to be the riskiest pick and the cheapest. The American lines of the English Pointers are all so closely bred that the chances of getting a truly 'off' dog is unlikely. Very unlikely.

Remember this especially: A LOT of what goes into a dog's "bird finding ability" has to do with his training. Field Trial dogs overrun a lot of birds that the more methodical dogs will find.

Finally, keep in mind that the guys breeding Gun Dogs do pay close attention to the line's nose. It's of a priority for them whereas the Field Trial guys are also weighing in Run, Boldness, Flash, etc.

Be realistic. What can you afford? How much work are you willing to put into the project? How patient are you? Really, how. patient. are. you?

After that, if I was just selecting for nose I'd look for something with a lot of Elhew. I don't have any myself but if I was just going to buy a reliably classy dog with a better than average chance of getting one with a better than average nose I'd look to the kennels working a bunch of Elhew.

That's what my opinion is. And it's worth just what it cost to type it.

Good luck!

Post by **slistoe** » Sun Dec 13, 2009 10:49 pm

birdogg42 wrote:
ezzy333 wrote:
birdogg42 wrote:From what you guys and gals have seen or trained. What line of pointers are the best bird finders?

mike
If one line was better than the others everyone would have one and the other lines would rapidly disappear. Bird dogs find birds and most pointers I have ever seen do a good job of doing just that.

Ezzy
So you are sayin that every pointer you have seen and trained was just as good at findin birds as the other?

Not to answer for Ezzy, but I will say that there is as much variation in littermates as there are between unrelated dogs in well bred dogs.

dudleysmith · Post by **dudleysmith** » Sun Dec 13, 2009 10:49 pm

lvrgsp wrote:In no order......Branscum, Slate Creek Doc, Fiddler, Lancelot.....
JMO..

Other than Fiddler all of the ones you mentioned go back to Branscum Nickel....

Pineywoods · Post by **Pineywoods** » Sun Dec 13, 2009 11:00 pm

Perdido wrote:That was a flippant answer and not called for.

Set out a goal and the parameters you have to operate under:

!) What's in your budget?
a) How much travel are you willing to do?
b) Shipping? Are you willing to trust the breeder to pick a puppy for you?
c) How old of a puppy are you willing to deal with?
These are questions that will definitely affect the price the breeder and you will arrive at.

2) How much training are you expecting to put into the project?
a) Start with a 49 day old puppy, the price will probably be near best.
b) Take an older puppy, less choice in the 'pick', the pup may not be well socialized.
c) Take an older puppy, he may have had some training or even some serious training and socialization. Expect to pay more.

3)Breeding.
a) Field Trials
b) Kennels for Gun Dogs
c) Back yard breeders

a:1 ) Field Trials are run for the specific purpose of improving the breed. All dogs are moving back to the average of the gene pool from the first breeding of
the winner. It's inexorable, but the idea is to slowly move the gene pool toward the desirable characteristics. A dog from a champion line of Field Trial Dogs will likely have a very good nose and be smarter. But they're going to have a lot of run. And not a lot of guys can handle a dog with a ton of run. It takes a lot of careful work to reel in a big going dog with out making them blinky or shy. They can drive you crazy.

b:1) Gun Dogs from Kennels. These dogs are going to be selected for the regular hunter. They'll have good noses and bird smarts because that's what the breeder is looking to sell. He won't sell many dogs if they are unmanageable. They probably won't have the nose and work ethic of a Trial Dog but I'd bet very few avid bird hunters would appreciate the difference. You can get very tightly bred trial dogs from a lot of gun dog breeders as most are introducing the proven lines back into their kennels.

c:1 Backyarders. You'll most likely see the mom and dad. Still this is going to be the riskiest pick and the cheapest. The American lines of the English Pointers are all so closely bred that the chances of getting a truly 'off' dog is unlikely. Very unlikely.

Finally, keep in mind that the guys breeding Gun Dogs do pay close attention to the line's nose. It's of a priority for them whereas the Field Trial guys are also weighing in Run, Boldness, Flash, etc.

Be realistic. What can you afford? How much work are you willing to put into the project? How patient are you? Really, how. patient. are. you?

After that, if I was just selecting for nose I'd look for something with a lot of Elhew. I don't have any myself but if I was just going to buy a reliably classy dog with a better than average chance of getting one with a better than average nose I'd look to the kennels working a bunch of Elhew.

That's what my opinion is. And it's worth just what it cost to type it.

Good luck!

What he said from a guy who owns seven Elhews.

Post by **ezzy333** » Sun Dec 13, 2009 11:28 pm

There are differences in many ways but nose is pretty much an individual trait and I have never found a difference in a line or a breed. Most have one and most use it.

Ezzy

mikebill11 · Post by **mikebill11** » Mon Dec 14, 2009 12:24 am

There is a lot more to finding birds than just a good nose. My brother has a little miller bred female. She is a bird finding fool. She doesn't find these birds just because she has a good nose. I think a lot of it is smarts. She just has knack for finding birds. In years past when we would go hunting at the end of the day she would have the most finds of all the dogs and we hunt behind some great dogs. I have also noticed that as my dog who is now four has gotten older he is finding more and more birds. I think this comes from experience. A good hunting dog will figure out how and where to hunt to find birds.

Big Dave · Post by **Big Dave** » Mon Dec 14, 2009 5:51 am

Fiddler dogs tend to have good noses and Miller dogs tend to know where to look. Having said that the old line Rebel dogs were the best bird finder that I have been around.

RayGubernat · Post by **RayGubernat** » Mon Dec 14, 2009 7:51 am

I agree that there are other components to the equation beside scenting ability.

Brains and adaptability is certainly part of it. The dog has to be able to learn where to look.

Intense, burning desire can have a great deal to do with it IMHO because a dog that has overwhelming desire, will do WHATEVER is necessary to find birds, even if it does not have the same amounts of other attributes. It will hunt harder, longer, closer, farther, faster or slower... sometimes one right after the other...whatever it takes. A dog that ain't got no quit in him will find you birds...somewhere.

All that being said, there are some dogs that seem to have a knack for sticking their birds hard and freezing them there. I mean RIGHT ther...in front. This leads to fewer unproductives. With wild birds dogs and also with trial dogs this is, to me a very valuable asset.

I had a Warhoop Jake bred gyp that had very, very few unproductive points over her hunting career, but good luck tying to find any of that blood. She was also without question, the toughest and most unstoppable dog I ever had. Not quite as good at accurate location and sticking birds were a couple of the Gunsmoke bred dogs out of Fat Boy and Hook's that I had.

One of them was quite possibly the most driven, most bird crazy bird dog I ever had. He was my example of a dog that did not have the supreme levels of talent and ability, but more than made up for it with sheer determination and an unquenchable desire to find birds, no matter what. I am convinced that if he had all four legs cut off at the first joint, he would have run all day on the bloody stumps. Definitely not for the faint of heart. There is still some of that blood available not too far back if you look around.

Of dogs that are more current, I would have to say that Sugarknoll Buckshot has impressed me over the years with his ability to accurately locate and pin pheasant at trials, where unproductives will positively kill your chances. Buck is out of Mrawsum, so I would look to that line of dogs also.

RayG

cody · Post by **cody** » Mon Dec 14, 2009 8:40 am

I thought everybody knew what the best lines were

http://www.gundogsonline.com/hunting-do ... 56072.html

BoJack · Post by **BoJack** » Mon Dec 14, 2009 11:15 am

I think there's good representives of most of the lines.Depends on their genetics and natural abilities they're born with.My lines of choice are Elhew,Guardrail,Miller,or a combination of those lines.

Duane M · Post by **Duane M** » Mon Dec 14, 2009 11:44 am

From my own dogs the two go to dogs when the chips are down, tough scent conditions especially, my two best are a Doublecross X Rebel bred and my line bred Elhew, next in line is my Miller dogs.

Perdido · Post by **Perdido** » Mon Dec 14, 2009 11:48 am

BoJack wrote:I think there's good representives of most of the lines.Depends on their genetics and natural abilities they're born with.My lines of choice are Elhew,Guardrail,Miller,or a combination of those lines.

That's pretty much exactly the pup I picked up on Saturday. But not for the questioner's reasons. If he turns out to be not-so-much FT then I'll have a darn good hunting buddy. We win either way!

Perdido · Post by **Perdido** » Mon Dec 14, 2009 11:51 am

I can say this right now: We picked him up on Sat morning and this morning he has already figured out that the other dogs will open the back door for him to come back in after being put out... way kewl.

......Eight weeks old tomorrow. I'm stoked.

kylenicholas02 · Post by **kylenicholas02** » Mon Dec 14, 2009 12:10 pm

If your looking trial wise, I dont think you can get much better puppy than a Miller

bowhunter1221975 · Post by **bowhunter1221975** » Mon Dec 14, 2009 2:41 pm

i would have to say it all comes down to what you want in a dog all bird dogs can find birds its drive, abilty and willingness to lerarn and work with you if a dog wants to find birds thats great but if he/she dont work with the handler you wont beable to hunt with him/her

ElhewPointer · Post by **ElhewPointer** » Mon Dec 14, 2009 3:39 pm

Kylenicholas,

If you're talking "trial wise" I am curious as to why you think Miller bred dogs are the "bird finders" If your talking bird finders wouldn't you want to look at the shooting dog ranks. I understand that the snow watch dog is a bird finder. But the entire line as a whole. I don't know about that one. Obviously, i'm particular to Elhew bred dogs. But just like in AA where white dogs seem to running the show, the same can be said about Elhew bred dogs in the Shooting Dog world. There are multiple champions/ru-champions this year so far that are bred Elhew. Shoot even Sinbad has been doing well in AA. To each his own. I was just wondering why you would lean that way.

Duane M · Post by **Duane M** » Mon Dec 14, 2009 3:57 pm

Elhew I am yet to own, train or have bred a Miller dog not born with natural bird sense. When I ranked my Miller dogs third there only one reason for that from what I see and that's experience they came along in the poorest bird years in history of the state but have produced despite that fact. Miller blood runs and wins in every venue from NSTRA to true AA prarie stakes as well as the long winning record at Ames the line has. No other line does that and on a consistent basis. Yeah I'm partial to the line but it goes FAR beyond just the bird finding ability they are born with.

Post by **slistoe** » Mon Dec 14, 2009 4:06 pm

Shooting dog vs All Age and bird finding. In places that I have been where they run All Age and Shooting Dog on the same grounds the difference is in how the dogs are handled and where the course is run. The All Age dogs are turned loose and the horses run up the middle of the course. The dogs are expected to go looking for birds. The Shooting Dog course will run by the most likely bird holding cover the courses have to offer. Simply put, if an All Age dog does not have the drive, desire, smarts and nose to find birds he won't, but most of the Shooting Dogs will unless they simply don't want to find birds.

So, get the best All Age bird finding blood you can (ie. the ones that do a lot of winning), put a Shooting Dog handle on them and you will have a bird finding machine on a Shooting Dog/Hunting course.

ElhewPointer · Post by **ElhewPointer** » Mon Dec 14, 2009 4:07 pm

Duane,

I don't disagree with you. White dogs win at every venue.

Brushbustin Sporting Dogs · Post by **Brushbustin Sporting Dogs** » Mon Dec 14, 2009 4:14 pm

Those Nella dogs really put the birds in the bag!!!!!

ElhewPointer · Post by **ElhewPointer** » Mon Dec 14, 2009 4:31 pm

Actually Rob,

I do quite a bit of hunting with my trial dogs, and yes, I put my fair share of "birds in the bag".

Back to the topic: I think that whether it be Miller, Elhew, whatever bloodline you think is a bird finder. The proof is in the puddin' Look over the past 5, 10, 20+ years of what consistantly wins, and there is your answer. You can't win Championships on race. You've gotta find birds.

Brushbustin Sporting Dogs · Post by **Brushbustin Sporting Dogs** » Mon Dec 14, 2009 4:38 pm

But seriously if there was one line taht was better everyone would bred that line. There is so much difference in individual lines that in no way could you ever say one line is better than the other. I've seen certain dogs bred out of nothing that were GREAT bird finders. All you can do is try to get the best but again no guarantees in this dog game. Its not that easy. All I see is everyone is naming the most popular lines which by default will have more winners in those lines due to numbers alone.

Maybe I'm wrong who knows but you could flip a coin and get just as good of an answer...

birdogg42 · Post by **birdogg42** » Mon Dec 14, 2009 4:39 pm

Didnt mean to come off like an a$$ EZZY. I meant a line as a whole or if you seen a particular dog run then tell us who it was and why you liked him. I am sure there are elhews that have shitty noses, just like there are millers that cant run a lick. I just wanted to see what everyones opinion is. I have a 4yr Elhew gyp and a 2yr old Southern Justice X Elhew male and a 1yr old Miller female. The miller aint doing too much right now. The Elhew is a very nice dog.But the Southern justice dog is a bird finding fool. I havent trained or seen enough dogs to actually have an opinion yet (30yrs old) .

lvrgsp · Post by **lvrgsp** » Mon Dec 14, 2009 4:52 pm

dudleysmith wrote:
lvrgsp wrote:In no order......Branscum, Slate Creek Doc, Fiddler, Lancelot.....
JMO..

Other than Fiddler all of the ones you mentioned go back to Branscum Nickel....

Yep you are correct Dudley, I should have mentioned that just from what I have seen, that Doc and Lancelot seem to be producing that trait in there get. Sorry for the confusion. By far the Lancelot dogs I have seen just seem to always produce more birds..and like what has been said before, I think alot has to go into the intelligence of the dog, and how he uses that nose

JMO

MARKB · Post by **MARKB** » Mon Dec 14, 2009 5:06 pm

I think we should be giving him information on specific sire/dam crosses or at least which one's to look for in a pedigree.

I'm sure that's what all of us have done we we've decided on a particular breed, no matter what the breed. We then look further into the lineage.

I know I wouldn't buy a dog based solely on a particular line, but by seeing who the parents,grandparents and maybe the great-grandparents are, past that generation it's just information IMO.

So let's keep giving specific dogs that throw specific TRAITS !!!! In this case it would be birdogs....

I have Elhews and I'm very happy with, but I definately wanted Dunn's Fearless Bud in there, that boy could find birds as well as pass that TRAIT along !!!
Plus there were several other dogs i wanted in the pedigree and lets not forget...GO lOOK AT THE PARENTS AND SEE THEM WORK !!!!

myerstenn · Post by **myerstenn** » Mon Dec 14, 2009 5:36 pm

Vagas your dreaming dude, everyone of those elhew dogs you dream about are out crossed . So mr elhew only gets part of the credit, there isnt a handfull of good ones past kinklarrs string or maybe a couple in doug rays string. anybody who spent 2 grand for an elhew puppy from wehle was" like a fool parting with his/her money." That ought to start some controversy!!! So let me tell ya how i really feel about elhew dogs

up-hunter · Post by **up-hunter** » Mon Dec 14, 2009 5:54 pm

I've yet to own one but have heard good things about guardrail dogs and there bird finding ability

ymepointer · Post by **ymepointer** » Mon Dec 14, 2009 6:02 pm

I would look for Texas Guide dogs or to some of the kennels running pointers on the major grouse dog circuit. I think you will find a lot oe elhew cross dogs in these groups.

ElhewPointer · Post by **ElhewPointer** » Mon Dec 14, 2009 6:05 pm

Ned,

You're right. I think you guys have convinced me to sell all my stuff. I couldn't agree more.

Perdido · Post by **Perdido** » Mon Dec 14, 2009 7:26 pm

ElhewPointer wrote:Ned,

You're right. I think you guys have convinced me to sell all my stuff. I couldn't agree more.

MARKB · Post by **MARKB** » Mon Dec 14, 2009 7:29 pm

I agree Elhewpointer, I guess the hundreds and I do mean hundreds of WILD birds that we've shot over our dogs from North Dakota to Texas must of been our imagination.

Best of luck finding a true answer to your question on this board !!

Post by **slistoe** » Mon Dec 14, 2009 7:37 pm

MARKB wrote: Best of luck finding a true answer to your question on this board !!

Try asking a question that actually has an answer.

birdogg42 · Post by **birdogg42** » Mon Dec 14, 2009 7:50 pm

slistoe wrote:
MARKB wrote: Best of luck finding a true answer to your question on this board !!
Try asking a question that actually has an answer.

I wasnt really looking for answer. Just wanting to hear peoples opinions.

Perdido · Post by **Perdido** » Mon Dec 14, 2009 7:52 pm

For cryin' out loud, it's just for fun. Chill out.

BoJack · Post by **BoJack** » Mon Dec 14, 2009 7:59 pm

Vagas,
meyerstenn says you're dreaming.That's probably what he's done over the years,dream about the day he could get one of them Elhew dogs,but apparently it didn't happen,now he's bitter.It doesn't matter what anyone thinks of Elhew dogs or any other line,what matters is the person that owns them and if they're satisfied and pleased with the dogs.If they are,so be it.To each their own.And yes I've owned Elhew dogs,and have another one coming in June.

Duane M · Post by **Duane M** » Tue Dec 15, 2009 8:18 am

This one got me curious so I pulled my logs for the last 10 years and went over them real good. When conditions were good the numbers were pretty equal to be honest among all dogs but the ones with more run did have more covey finds by almost 2-1 margin, singles were pretty even as were Pheasant and Woodcock regardless of range of the dogs. Starting five years ago when the population really began to decline the top producing dogs were the DC X Rebel, then a bitch I bred who was from an SCD X Miller dam and a line bred Elhew Sundanceer sire, next was a pair I bred from a Miller dam and the same Elhew Sundancer sire. This will maybe PO some people but when it came to wild bird hunts the worst were the Fiddler dogs, none of them were in the top 20 of dogs hunted over during this time period. Overall the best two lines were the Miller and Elhew dogs but the best overall dog was still the Doublecross X Rebel bitch and her brother who works a local preserve is their top producer of all dog on there in all breeds. When I threw in the line bred Milller dogs I have today, which as I mentioned have been here only in the worst years they produced on a consistent basis at a nearly equal rate to the top 4 who were all around in the best years of the past decade.

ElhewPointer · Post by **ElhewPointer** » Tue Dec 15, 2009 9:23 am

I've had quite a few bird dogs in my young age, been around them my entire life. Im not saying one line of dogs are better bird finders or not. I've had Brits, GSP, etc... I'm just glad, as Pointer owners, we even get to argue about this topic. There are breeds out there dying to produce one dog that can compete, whether it be in a trial or just hunting, with the pointer. As a pointer owner it is a good feeling that we have the luxiory to complain about which bloodline is better within our breed.

Mark,

We have been fortunate enough to shoot hundrends of WILD birds together. There are guys on here that wouldn't know a wild bird if they saw one. There was nothing better when Cody and Ace tore it up for a weekend. We are blessed to even experience "bird finding" dogs on WILD birds.

Vagas

myerstenn · Post by **myerstenn** » Tue Dec 15, 2009 10:50 am

Vagas ,you got a really nice dog and the win record proves it . Iam not an elhew fan ,they are way over sold in my opinion. Best of luck in field trials this winter and spring ned

ElhewPointer · Post by **ElhewPointer** » Tue Dec 15, 2009 1:28 pm

Ned, thanks. I'll feed that liver headed first year dog of yours anytime you want to stop. Question though. Do you not like Elhew stuff because of how they were marketed and the money that was made off of the name or is it because of certain traits you look for?

myerstenn · Post by **myerstenn** » Tue Dec 15, 2009 4:55 pm

Most of the ones i have seen have been pretty common,and yes i believe they are over priced for what you get. Not to say there isn"t a few good one around. I dont think they are worth the inflated price{s} JMO ned

Post by **topher40** » Tue Dec 15, 2009 5:12 pm

Now there is some truth to that comment, Elhews are the GSP's of the pointer world. Everyone and their grandma has bred one or a hundred and if you talk to any new pointer owner they start talking about this "elhew" blood they got in the dog. They have NO idea what they have, other than it is Elhew. I always want to tell them, "Big friggin woopty doo"! I personally dont raise/own any elhew dogs but I have seen some of them get it done. No different than me not owning a Ford, I just havent found one I like, doesnt mean they dont get the job done though!

Perdido · Post by **Perdido** » Tue Dec 15, 2009 9:33 pm

Mind if I inquire what an "inflated price" would be?

Duane M · Post by **Duane M** » Tue Dec 15, 2009 10:54 pm

Yeah some are high but no more over priced than the 7500 bucks paid for a 9 month old puppy who has produced squat and the buyers of that pups offspring were and continue to be screwed as bad or worse than Wehle ever did in his decades. Worse is how many were culled litter after litter when that CH. sire was continued to be bred, what pups were not passed on to suckers who bought on a Champions name were all culled. True story there folks. Wehle was a a dam sight more honest person with his dealings than many are in todays world.

Perdido · Post by **Perdido** » Tue Dec 15, 2009 11:29 pm

What would you consider "overpriced" but not an exorbitant oddity? $7500 for a nine month old puppy is in my experience an extremely rare occurrence for a bird dog.

What would you say is a high price to pay for a pup that happens somewhat frequently?

myerstenn · Post by **myerstenn** » Wed Dec 16, 2009 7:41 am

Like i said,only a fool would pay that kind of money, you know any of them????????????