puppy price

User avatar
Ron R
Rank: 5X Champion
Posts: 1067
Joined: Wed Jan 14, 2009 5:51 pm
Location: Bethalto, IL

Re: puppy price

Post by Ron R » Mon Jan 04, 2010 2:47 pm

Joe, How would it be possible for somebody to prove thier dog to you. What trial venue do you run in and is success in that venue the only way to prove a dog's worth in your eyes. What breed and bloodlines do you run. As you mentioned that you have NC's and Ch's and it also sound like you have some good dogs. Just curious.

Ron
http://www.perfectpedigrees.com/4genview.php?id=2786

Live a good, honorable life. Then when you get older and think back, you'll enjoy it a second time.

User avatar
Elkhunter
Rank: 5X Champion
Posts: 1059
Joined: Thu Feb 07, 2008 12:42 pm
Location: Idaho

Re: puppy price

Post by Elkhunter » Mon Jan 04, 2010 3:02 pm

He runs GSP's

User avatar
3Britts
Rank: 5X Champion
Posts: 1056
Joined: Sat Jan 26, 2008 10:22 am
Location: Northern Utah

Re: puppy price

Post by 3Britts » Mon Jan 04, 2010 3:26 pm

Joe Amatulli wrote:You know Duane I am happy for you, but..............PROVE IT!
okay, here is the problem. Not a criticism on either side of this issue.

We have two discussions going that I can see and two sides being argued.
First, Field Trialers believe that the only way to prove that you have a great dog is through trialing.
Second, Non-trialers believe that the only way to prove you have a great dog is through hunting.

Trialers will pay more for a puppy from a well bred pairing because they believe that the puppy has the potential to win and, in the long run, make money. Whether that is in trial winnings, stud fees, endorsements or puppies sales or all of those listed, this is the reasoning. Who knows, maybe it is just for the prestige of owning the Nations top dog.

Non-trialers are more unwilling to pay the same prices because most are not looking at the income potential from their dogs. They are just looking at the dog as a hunting partner. They are not going to spend 6 to 8 months of the year on the trial circuit, 4 out of 7 days for 6+ hours a day training their dog to work birds to the level it takes to win a competition. They simply want a good bird dog.

I trial about 6 events a year as time and money permit. I love to watch good dogs do what they were meant to do. It's always a good time. However, these trials aren't really hunting situations and always leave me wanting more. There is just no way to use planted bird and get the thrill you get from a wild bird hunt. This is the way that I see, some see it differently and I say, more power to them. Different strokes and all.

I think that the point that Joe is trying to make is that trialers look at the purchase price for their dog is really an investment in the future and they are, for the most part, unwilling to spend money on an unproven, nontrialed, line. jmo

User avatar
DGFavor
GDF Junkie
Posts: 1949
Joined: Fri Feb 24, 2006 1:55 am
Location: Pocatello, ID

Re: puppy price

Post by DGFavor » Mon Jan 04, 2010 4:05 pm

First, Field Trialers believe that the only way to prove that you have a great dog is through trialing.
Second, Non-trialers believe that the only way to prove you have a great dog is through hunting.
You left out a third option: the best proof of a dog is to be successful at both trialing and hunting (OK, can't help myself, I'm gonna say "real hunting" :lol: ) Personally, I'll pay the price for pups out of parents proven with hundreds of hours in the field handling wild birds and also successful under the eyes of multiple judges at multiple venues...or I might just go out to the kennel and breed 'em myself for free... :P :lol: :lol:

Duane M
Rank: Champion
Posts: 316
Joined: Tue Apr 20, 2004 3:15 pm
Location: Oklahoma

Re: puppy price

Post by Duane M » Mon Jan 04, 2010 4:24 pm

DGFavor wrote:
First, Field Trialers believe that the only way to prove that you have a great dog is through trialing.
Second, Non-trialers believe that the only way to prove you have a great dog is through hunting.
You left out a third option: the best proof of a dog is to be successful at both trialing and hunting (OK, can't help myself, I'm gonna say "real hunting" :lol: ) Personally, I'll pay the price for pups out of parents proven with hundreds of hours in the field handling wild birds and also successful under the eyes of multiple judges at multiple venues...or I might just go out to the kennel and breed 'em myself for free... :P :lol: :lol:

Doug thats the ideal for sure! Let me use an example of a pup we sold a few years back, and her sister. One pup has never been trialed, ever, but has produced wild birds across the country from Virginia to California literally, she has been productive on all quails, Pheasants, Grouse, Woodcock and prarie birds as well. The sister was campaigned quite successfully winning in several cover dog stakes but there was a problem. The owner absolutely loved hunting over her so the trainer/handlers never got to keep her a full season. Dog #2s owner instead of retiring his "world class hunting dog" from hunting instead buys several other dogs from FT "proven" stock trying to find another like her, he finally did after about a dozen dogs. Heres the kicker these two dogs came from parents who neither one had ever been trialed but had been hunted quite extensively by myself. So we had this "unproven" breeding produce pups that have won trials and won in the real world. Oh and lest I forget when we repeated the breeding we got the same results, all dogs trialed were and are winners and the hunting only have all been as good as it gets. Oh yeah and the most any went for was 800 and thats dog # 2 and the ONLY reason she sold for that was her owner REALLY wanted her after seeing her on point at just 8 weeks old, the rest of the pups from both litters went for 3-500 bucks. Money don't guarantee squat!!

User avatar
briarpatch
Rank: 2X Champion
Posts: 447
Joined: Mon Apr 21, 2008 4:12 pm
Location: Southern NJ

Re: puppy price

Post by briarpatch » Mon Jan 04, 2010 5:37 pm

I gotta do it :lol:

Hows them FT dogs handle sitting quiet in a duck boat quiet for 2 hours waiting for ducks ???

User avatar
topher40
GDF Junkie
Posts: 2306
Joined: Sat Feb 11, 2006 3:09 pm
Location: NE Kansas

Re: puppy price

Post by topher40 » Mon Jan 04, 2010 5:45 pm

I got to do it also: :twisted:

Why freeze your but off in a duck boat just to send a dog off the edge to retrieve the bird that you could motor over and get yourself? :wink:
Chris E. Kroll
CEK Kennels
http://www.cekkennels.com
785-288-0461


Governments govern best when governments governs least


-Thomas Paine

Joe Amatulli
Rank: Champion
Posts: 322
Joined: Sun Oct 05, 2008 8:58 am

Re: puppy price

Post by Joe Amatulli » Mon Jan 04, 2010 5:57 pm

3 Brits money, money…..what money! I do it for the love of the dogs and the sport, I am by mature a very competitive person, but want to win by being the best and beating the best.
Hay Doug was wondering when you were going to come in on this, but my point exactly. Considering what we put into these dogs, why on earth would you want to start off with anything else other than the best you can get? I have never had a dog that handled pen raised, but could not handle wild or handle wild and not pen raised, so I don’t know if you can breed dogs that can handle wild birds. I will say that I think you can breed a dog to do anything, so I guess that may be so.
There is no doubt that a wild bird trial is the ultimate, but I don’t think that works in the real world, just not enough birds out there.
Topher couldn't have said it better myself, but I hear some really, really big numbers for dogs that do that. 8)
Can someone tell me how to reduce the size of a picture so it can be post on the site.

User avatar
Elkhunter
Rank: 5X Champion
Posts: 1059
Joined: Thu Feb 07, 2008 12:42 pm
Location: Idaho

Re: puppy price

Post by Elkhunter » Mon Jan 04, 2010 6:05 pm

As for the FT bred pups, I know that ALOT of successful FT dogs rarely, if ever even see a wild bird.

User avatar
3Britts
Rank: 5X Champion
Posts: 1056
Joined: Sat Jan 26, 2008 10:22 am
Location: Northern Utah

Re: puppy price

Post by 3Britts » Mon Jan 04, 2010 7:17 pm

Doug, you are right. A dog that will do both is proof enough.

Joe, how many pros do you know that go on the trial circuit just to break even. They charge for trialing other people's dog, for training dogs and in most cases take half or all of any purse that the dogs win. Some trial dogs have their faces on the front of dog food packages and others on ads for who knows what. There is the money that I spoke of. I am like you. I like the competition found at trials of all kinds. I get a kick out of watching my dogs preform to a strict set of rules. I love seeing my dogs slam on point and hold point through flush and fall, seeing them retreive and then turn and make ready to do it all again. I get a slug of satisfaction when my Summer, she is only 18 inches and 25 lbs, out run Setters, EPs and GSPs.

But to me, field trials are still just a game I play, as I go to only 6 a year, at about $300 a pop for entry fees, food and gas, I spend much less than many and more than some. I do understand where you are coming from. I just don't think that FTs are the end all of proof when it comes to quality bird dogs. jmo
Last edited by 3Britts on Mon Jan 04, 2010 7:19 pm, edited 1 time in total.

User avatar
Middlecreek
Rank: Senior Hunter
Posts: 193
Joined: Mon Mar 09, 2009 7:10 am
Location: Nebraska

Re: puppy price

Post by Middlecreek » Mon Jan 04, 2010 7:18 pm

I don't want to start the hunting vs. field trial debate, but since it was brought up the dog laying at my feet as I type this won a major all age championship this spring and turned around this fall and hunted for me off foot like he has been on a preserve all his life.
FC/RU CH SM Queen High Flush (Abby) http://www.perfectpedigrees.com/genview.php?id=3815
2xCH/2xruCH FC BDK's Sin City Wildcard (Deuce) http://www.perfectpedigrees.com/genview.php?id=2269

User avatar
birddog1968
GDF Junkie
Posts: 3043
Joined: Wed Mar 04, 2009 2:40 pm
Location: Wherever I may roam

Re: puppy price

Post by birddog1968 » Mon Jan 04, 2010 7:30 pm

Middlecreek wrote:I don't want to start the hunting vs. field trial debate, but since it was brought up the dog laying at my feet as I type this won a major all age championship this spring and turned around this fall and hunted for me off foot like he has been on a preserve all his life.
Gotta love those kind....smart dog I bet.
The second kick from a mule is of very little educational value - from Wing and Shot.

Hunters Pale Rider

Hunters Branch Jalapeno

User avatar
wems2371
GDF Junkie
Posts: 2430
Joined: Sat Dec 08, 2007 6:55 pm
Location: Eastern Iowa

Re: puppy price

Post by wems2371 » Mon Jan 04, 2010 8:07 pm

Evidently you've never duck hunted, or you think that everyone who does has a boat. No boat here--just waders for putting out decoys. Good luck trying to use your human nose and marking abilities, in that boat of yours that you are motoring over in, to find a downed duck in a thicket of cattails or brush...or better yet multiples. Course, if your head is huge, your nose might be adequate. :wink: :D

Everybody wants something different in a dog. I don't have to read many posts to know that we're all hunting different bird species from upland to waterfowl, different terrains, different cover, maybe some bloodtracks, fur, etc. I know I don't want what some folks like, and they probably don't want what I like. We also don't all play the same INVENTED competitions or give the same value to the titles that come with them.

By looking at various for sale sites...it seems like there's a quality pup out there in a lot of different price ranges. If a person can't afford exactly what they want, then they're gonna have to wait, save their pennies, and work extra--or be willing to modify what they want. Isn't that how it works, or did I miss my silver spoon?

User avatar
briarpatch
Rank: 2X Champion
Posts: 447
Joined: Mon Apr 21, 2008 4:12 pm
Location: Southern NJ

Re: puppy price

Post by briarpatch » Mon Jan 04, 2010 8:40 pm

Why freeze your but off in a duck boat just to send a dog off the edge to retrieve the bird that you could motor over and get yourself?
Of course topher never duck hunted he/she has a long tail :lol: :lol:

and if he/she had duck hunted before he or she would realize the dog must retrieve birds that fall in the meadows with thick reeds swamp mud ect. places the boat wont go....


G.S.P.

German Super Puppy

:lol:
thats why them guys and gals get them dogs half price they only do half the things a really good dog does :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:

User avatar
birddog1968
GDF Junkie
Posts: 3043
Joined: Wed Mar 04, 2009 2:40 pm
Location: Wherever I may roam

Re: puppy price

Post by birddog1968 » Mon Jan 04, 2010 9:26 pm

briarpatch wrote:
Why freeze your but off in a duck boat just to send a dog off the edge to retrieve the bird that you could motor over and get yourself?
:lol:
thats why them guys and gals get them dogs half price they only do half the things a really good dog does :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:

Thats gonna make me get a picture of my long tail retrieving a duck or maybe even a goose, I will check in with ya when I get the shot :lol:
The second kick from a mule is of very little educational value - from Wing and Shot.

Hunters Pale Rider

Hunters Branch Jalapeno

Joe Amatulli
Rank: Champion
Posts: 322
Joined: Sun Oct 05, 2008 8:58 am

Re: puppy price

Post by Joe Amatulli » Tue Jan 05, 2010 8:40 am

Duane I don’t know of any other way of proving the quality of your dog other than field trials, but if you have a suggestion I’m game. There are plenty of national champions that produced nothing and I will say that to keep breeding those dogs is a sin. I will also say that breeding field dogs for shows that could not find a bird in a bird pen is even a bigger sin. I run GSP’s and I think the enclosed picture says it all.
This is getting a little weird, but ya I guess if you have a GSP that can win retriever trials and field trials your pups are worth more, I have never herd of a GSP win a retriever trials. Personal I don’t know that I would want to own a dog that is so relaxed and has such little desire.
Attachments
trophies 001.jpg
trophies 001.jpg (31.45 KiB) Viewed 7531 times

User avatar
Ricky Ticky Shorthairs
Rank: 5X Champion
Posts: 1117
Joined: Tue Nov 27, 2007 9:14 am
Location: Central Iowa

Re: puppy price

Post by Ricky Ticky Shorthairs » Tue Jan 05, 2010 8:58 am

WOW!!! It's almost like Charlie Rose is back. :roll:

Doug

Joe Amatulli
Rank: Champion
Posts: 322
Joined: Sun Oct 05, 2008 8:58 am

Re: puppy price

Post by Joe Amatulli » Tue Jan 05, 2010 11:11 am

Well so much for this being a great thread! Ricky I’ll bet you that your mentor is from Chicago, I know one thing for sure it’s not Keith. In stead of trying to lower the game to your standards maybe you should try to elevating it to those who are and have been there! BY : :roll:

User avatar
Adam
Rank: Master Hunter
Posts: 297
Joined: Thu Feb 24, 2005 2:32 pm
Location: Eden,WI

Re: puppy price

Post by Adam » Tue Jan 05, 2010 11:31 am

Joe Amatulli wrote:Duane I don’t know of any other way of proving the quality of your dog other than field trials, but if you have a suggestion I’m game. There are plenty of national champions that produced nothing and I will say that to keep breeding those dogs is a sin. I will also say that breeding field dogs for shows that could not find a bird in a bird pen is even a bigger sin. I run GSP’s and I think the enclosed picture says it all.
This is getting a little weird, but ya I guess if you have a GSP that can win retriever trials and field trials your pups are worth more, I have never herd of a GSP win a retriever trials. Personal I don’t know that I would want to own a dog that is so relaxed and has such little desire.

Image
Image
Image
Image
Image
Image
Image

She hasn't won any retriever trials but she will sit in a blind and maybe its me but it doesnt look like shes lacking any desire........

as for a price of a pup I'll pay whatever it takes to get the dog I want....
Last edited by Adam on Tue Jan 05, 2010 11:45 am, edited 1 time in total.

User avatar
Brushbustin Sporting Dogs
Rank: 5X Champion
Posts: 839
Joined: Sat Sep 16, 2006 10:38 pm
Location: Central Nebraska

Re: puppy price

Post by Brushbustin Sporting Dogs » Tue Jan 05, 2010 11:32 am

Now all this has gotten into is an ego match!!! Point is to ask over $500 for a puppy I think is insane... Thats is the top price a puppy should be worth depending... I might pay more from a frozen semen breeding where the sire has produced dogs while he was alive.

Joe not all National Champions produce Natinaol Champions... Regardless of what we do its all a crap shot we're no Gods. We just try the best to raise the best.

I have and buy all very well bred dogs cause I know what they are and what I should get. Our National Champion dog this year was a 3 1/2 year old dog out of an oops breeding that was giving away for free as a pup!!!!

Lets all get off our high horse and agree on atleast something....we're al full of it!!!!!!! :mrgreen:
Robert Myers

Rajin Kennel

308-870-3448

Brittanys are Best enough said...

Image

BBD's Ca-Ching
http://www.perfectpedigrees.com/4genview.php?id=1061

Brushbustin's Ebbie SH
http://www.perfectpedigrees.com/4genview.php?id=678

BNJ's Dirty Dozen Dixie
http://www.perfectpedigrees.com/4genview.php?id=869

User avatar
Ricky Ticky Shorthairs
Rank: 5X Champion
Posts: 1117
Joined: Tue Nov 27, 2007 9:14 am
Location: Central Iowa

Re: puppy price

Post by Ricky Ticky Shorthairs » Tue Jan 05, 2010 12:22 pm

Joe Amatulli wrote:Well so much for this being a great thread! Ricky I’ll bet you that your mentor is from Chicago, I know one thing for sure it’s not Keith. In stead of trying to lower the game to your standards maybe you should try to elevating it to those who are and have been there! BY : :roll:

Well Joe~I'm not sure who you're talking about from Chicago. And no, it's not Keith either. Although he doesn't find the need to charge 1000 for his puppies that end up winning A LOT of NC's. (and I've never heard him or Robbie say that there dogs were better than anybody else's)

I know exactly what the standards are for the FT game, and respsect you and the rest of the top players. Trust me, I have one that can and will compete at that level. It's just that it gets kind of boring hearing someone whip out the win card(like Charlie did) every time someone dissagrees with them.

Most of the people watching this thread don't know who you or your dogs are. Doesn't mean they are bad or are trying to bad mouth you or your dogs. All of those trophys don't mean a thing to them. All they want is a hunting dog, and it seems that you can't or won't accept that.

I know what it takes to put a dog in position to win NC's. A great pedigree, a great handler/trainer, and A LOT of money and time. Try not to take yourself so seriously, and get off that high horse and hang out with us peasants every now and then.

Oh yea, my name is Doug, not Ricky.

Doug

User avatar
Greg Jennings
GDF Junkie
Posts: 5739
Joined: Tue Apr 20, 2004 11:59 am
Location: Springboro, OH

Re: puppy price

Post by Greg Jennings » Tue Jan 05, 2010 12:29 pm

I, personally, think it unwise to tell people how much they should ask or pay for a puppy, or anything else, unless they ask for advice.

FWIW,
Greg J.

User avatar
Middlecreek
Rank: Senior Hunter
Posts: 193
Joined: Mon Mar 09, 2009 7:10 am
Location: Nebraska

Re: puppy price

Post by Middlecreek » Tue Jan 05, 2010 1:44 pm

I have a question: If the price of a puppy is not based on breeding, wins of sire and dam(in any game), hunting ability, etc. etc. then what is it based on? We've heard arguments about how no-name dogs can or could win at field trials, which I agree there most likey is and has been in the past. So would it also be true that a dog that really doesn't hunt that good could still produce a good hunter? I'm sure we would all agree a pup or two out of a few litters would hunt just fine. The same principle would apply to dogs bred to hunt as well as those bred to trial. If you want a good hunting dog prospect you buy from good hunting stock, and if you want a good field trial prospect you would buy from good field trial stock. I personally would buy from field trial stock for both, as the prey drive and "mind" on that dogs ancestors are proven, or atleast more strictly proven at a somewhat unbiased level (field trail, hunt test, etc.), not just the owners saying "He hunts good" and we all know a "good hunter" can mean a million different things. So.... no matter what lines your puppy comes from, what your paying for is your "probability" of getting what you want in a dog. It would only be logical that in doing so you will pay more for a puppy that has a good "probabilty" of doing what you want vs. one that has a lesser chance of being what you want.

For most I think it would come down to this:
1. In three years, if I put in the time and money to properly develop this puppy what is the "probability" I will have what I am looking for????
2. How much am I willing to pay upfront for that "probability"???

So if I want a good hunter I would spend the $500 for proven lines vs. having to buy a whole litter of pet quality dogs to find my one good hunter I am looking for in the end. Someone has taken the time and ivested in the sire and dam to evaluate their capabilities and are trying to reproduce or better what they have. Same applies to those that want to play the field trial game, I would pay the premium because more time and money was invested in those dogs and fewer made the cut before a breeding was decided on. I think we can all agree that out of all the puppies born in a given year there are way more "good hunters" than all age champions.

So.... in my mind that shows where the price difference is, but whats the base line? What is the pet quality dog worth? Once someone can answer that question then we can have a thread with even more posts deciding what kind of value can be placed on getting a dog with higher probabilities of perfomance, may it be hunting or otherwise.
FC/RU CH SM Queen High Flush (Abby) http://www.perfectpedigrees.com/genview.php?id=3815
2xCH/2xruCH FC BDK's Sin City Wildcard (Deuce) http://www.perfectpedigrees.com/genview.php?id=2269

User avatar
snips
GDF Junkie
Posts: 5542
Joined: Mon Apr 12, 2004 7:26 am
Location: n.ga.

Re: puppy price

Post by snips » Tue Jan 05, 2010 3:04 pm

Joe Amatulli wrote:Duane I don’t know of any other way of proving the quality of your dog other than field trials, but if you have a suggestion I’m game. There are plenty of national champions that produced nothing and I will say that to keep breeding those dogs is a sin. I will also say that breeding field dogs for shows that could not find a bird in a bird pen is even a bigger sin. I run GSP’s and I think the enclosed picture says it all.
This is getting a little weird, but ya I guess if you have a GSP that can win retriever trials and field trials your pups are worth more, I have never herd of a GSP win a retriever trials. Personal I don’t know that I would want to own a dog that is so relaxed and has such little desire.
Something missing here. The dogs that won all that. The picture says it all.
brenda

User avatar
The Zephyr
Rank: Champion
Posts: 336
Joined: Tue Jul 03, 2007 1:27 pm
Location: East 'til your hat floats...

Re: puppy price

Post by The Zephyr » Tue Jan 05, 2010 3:48 pm

The price of a puppy is whatever the market will bear.

It is a reflection on the quality of the pedigrees and achievements of the sire and dam.

The socio-economic area in which you live and the number of litters on the ground at a specific time.

A certain level of marketing, regional vs.nationwide.

The popularity of the breed and the number of breeders will also drive the market.

John L.
FC AFC Fieldmaster's Montauk Zephyr
http://www.perfectpedigrees.com/genview.php?id=324
Image

Fieldmaster's Oregon Road Phosphorus
http://www.perfectpedigrees.com/genview.php?id=2833

Image

User avatar
big steve46
Rank: 5X Champion
Posts: 1402
Joined: Mon Jul 10, 2006 7:50 pm
Location: S. Illinois

Re: puppy price

Post by big steve46 » Tue Jan 05, 2010 3:58 pm

My! My! Do tell how you "stub-tail" owners carry on! :lol: :lol:
big steve

User avatar
Middlecreek
Rank: Senior Hunter
Posts: 193
Joined: Mon Mar 09, 2009 7:10 am
Location: Nebraska

Re: puppy price

Post by Middlecreek » Tue Jan 05, 2010 4:02 pm

Zephyr,

This thread should end with your last post. There is no one that can argue with what you put for an answer as to how pups are priced. And I think we would all agree the stronger your pedigree is in whatever discipline (field trials, hunt test, etc.) the higher the "probability" it is you will get what you are looking for. In life(including buying a pup) the ONLY things that are guaranteed are death and taxes.
FC/RU CH SM Queen High Flush (Abby) http://www.perfectpedigrees.com/genview.php?id=3815
2xCH/2xruCH FC BDK's Sin City Wildcard (Deuce) http://www.perfectpedigrees.com/genview.php?id=2269

Shadow
Rank: 5X Champion
Posts: 1173
Joined: Tue May 12, 2009 9:04 am

Re: puppy price

Post by Shadow » Tue Jan 05, 2010 7:11 pm

lively thread- why should it end- after all- we're all responding- no

User avatar
briarpatch
Rank: 2X Champion
Posts: 447
Joined: Mon Apr 21, 2008 4:12 pm
Location: Southern NJ

Re: puppy price

Post by briarpatch » Tue Jan 05, 2010 7:18 pm

My! My! Do tell how you "stub-tail" owners carry on!
Thats gonna make me get a picture of my long tail retrieving a duck or maybe even a goose, I will check in with ya when I get the shot
:lol: :lol: :lol:

At least both ya'll have a sense of humor and can handle a little ribbing with a grain of salt and can have a little fun with it :lol: ,,,

I would love to see that shot , always like to see pictures of a good dog work


speaking of shots beautiful dog there Adam really sharp think I said that before in another thread but after seeing her again cant help but repeat it ,very nice

JKP
Rank: 5X Champion
Posts: 968
Joined: Thu Nov 26, 2009 7:14 pm

Re: puppy price

Post by JKP » Tue Jan 05, 2010 7:57 pm

Point is to ask over $500 for a puppy I think is insane
Too bad we can't poll folks on how much they spent for their dog and whether they feel they got their money's worth. This is a ridiculous discussion. We all either vote with our wallets or with our feet and we have the choice. Personally, I don't know why I wouldn't want to give a good breeder who invests his time (how many $/hour do you think that would be???) and money to produce great dogs a good price for a pup.

90% of the pups that go out the door you never hear from again...leaving a breeder right where he/she started...having to pay the bills to find the next generation of good dogs. Always amazes me when Mr. Nobody with a check book walks through my door, expects the best pup in the box, at his price so he can go play. Well, I'm a breeder....and what i consider to be the most promising are going to the hands that I trust so that maybe one day they contribute to the breed.

There's way more than money to this issue.

kumate
Rank: Master Hunter
Posts: 235
Joined: Mon Sep 29, 2008 8:31 am
Location: HERNANDO fL

Re: puppy price

Post by kumate » Wed Jan 06, 2010 4:37 am

It appears that most of the people who are saying that over 500 or so is insane etc for a pupppy, are attempting to sell pups themselves and having difficulty even getting their 500 or so. One member said that they usually get 500 but a buyer wanted one particular pup so bad and paid 800 for it and their $ standard for insanity changed. Most that are selling pups for 500 etc, would surely sell them for 1000 if they had the buyers for them. Why not see just what it is that these 1000 pup breeders are doing to sell pups on a consistant basis for 1000 and improve. This is just a generized statment and dosent apply to everyone. I think every puppy buyer buys the best that he can afford, my first gsp i paid 350 for and was hapy as a pig and "bleep". The pup i paid 1000 for from Gary i am extremely satisfied with.

Jerry

Joe Amatulli
Rank: Champion
Posts: 322
Joined: Sun Oct 05, 2008 8:58 am

Re: puppy price

Post by Joe Amatulli » Wed Jan 06, 2010 8:04 am

Great posts people! Middle creek you hit the nail square on the head, you pay more for the probability, but it’s no guarantee and no doubt even the best pup in the country still needs a lot more than just great blood. John perfect, no doubt there are a lot of factors, JKP good point, Greg you are right and thank you.
Doug you obviously don’t know me, because serious is not what I am and I don’t have a horse! You have done this before maybe you need to read what I posted about paying a premium for a house dog or hunting dog instead of twisting my words. I will say this, the one area that the pointer people have the shorthair people hands down is they honor their people and dogs, maybe you and many of the GSP people need to take a lesson from them. Instead of trying to bring dogs and people down to your level maybe you should try elevating yours to the level that many have and are achieving. I have never herd Keith or Robbi try to belittle any one or any dogs achievements maybe they should be training you as well as your dog. I was not trying to be a braggart by posting that picture, Duane asked me a question and I answered it, if you felt intimidated by that picture I am sorry, but than again it was not meant for you!

User avatar
Ricky Ticky Shorthairs
Rank: 5X Champion
Posts: 1117
Joined: Tue Nov 27, 2007 9:14 am
Location: Central Iowa

Re: puppy price

Post by Ricky Ticky Shorthairs » Wed Jan 06, 2010 8:33 am

Joe Amatulli wrote:Great posts people! Middle creek you hit the nail square on the head, you pay more for the probability, but it’s no guarantee and no doubt even the best pup in the country still needs a lot more than just great blood. John perfect, no doubt there are a lot of factors, JKP good point, Greg you are right and thank you.
Doug you obviously don’t know me, because serious is not what I am and I don’t have a horse! You have done this before maybe you need to read what I posted about paying a premium for a house dog or hunting dog instead of twisting my words. I will say this, the one area that the pointer people have the shorthair people hands down is they honor their people and dogs, maybe you and many of the GSP people need to take a lesson from them. Instead of trying to bring dogs and people down to your level maybe you should try elevating yours to the level that many have and are achieving. I have never herd Keith or Robbi try to belittle any one or any dogs achievements maybe they should be training you as well as your dog. I was not trying to be a braggart by posting that picture, Duane asked me a question and I answered it, if you felt intimidated by that picture I am sorry, but than again it was not meant for you!

Joe~I'm not sure where you got that I was belittling you or your dogs. I know what you and they have done. Still not sure what you mean by bringing people and dogs down to my level. Like I said, I do try to achieve the level of the top players. Not quite sure how I twisted your words either.

If you re-read my post I said that I have never heard Keith or Robbi belittle anyone or their dogs. They DO NOT train my dog. That is where I bought him for $450. Still not sure where you got that I was belittling anyone or their dogs.

That picture doesn't intimidate me in the least. As a matter of fact I'll put my dog up against any of your's any day of the week.

Doug

Duane M
Rank: Champion
Posts: 316
Joined: Tue Apr 20, 2004 3:15 pm
Location: Oklahoma

Re: puppy price

Post by Duane M » Wed Jan 06, 2010 8:35 am

kumate wrote:It appears that most of the people who are saying that over 500 or so is insane etc for a pupppy, are attempting to sell pups themselves and having difficulty even getting their 500 or so. One member said that they usually get 500 but a buyer wanted one particular pup so bad and paid 800 for it and their $ standard for insanity changed. Most that are selling pups for 500 etc, would surely sell them for 1000 if they had the buyers for them. Why not see just what it is that these 1000 pup breeders are doing to sell pups on a consistant basis for 1000 and improve. This is just a generized statment and dosent apply to everyone. I think every puppy buyer buys the best that he can afford, my first gsp i paid 350 for and was hapy as a pig and "bleep". The pup i paid 1000 for from Gary i am extremely satisfied with.

Jerry
I never said over 500 was crazy, heck I have paid over 5 myself and am very happy with the dog, and I do not have any pups I am trying to sell first off. I did say I know a man who has a couple of litters he needs to sell due to a heart condition that is forcing him out of the business after over 50 years is what I said. The pup that sold for 800 only did so because I wanted to keep the pup and actually tried to talk the guy out of it by telling him I had turned down other offers, WHICH I HAD. Had I wanted to I could have gotten more for the pup with no problem he wanted her that badly, but I did not do business like that. 1000 is a bit steep but not crazy IMO. What I feel is crazy is the pups sold for twice that and more off nothing but a pedigree when a person can bUy a well started or even finished dog for that price. BTW I have spent enough time around the dog biz to know what these folks do to sell the pups that go for such big money, lots of dirty pool in the business side and a lot of it takes place on the web boards.

But tell me this since you think $$$$ equals quality, how is it that I can go to SEVERAL top line breeders and buy pups for 5-700 buck with no problem. I know for certain that I could right now call 4 top end breeders and not pay over 700 for any pup I want, I won't name drop but I can guarantee I could do it and do it easily.
Last edited by Duane M on Wed Jan 06, 2010 8:56 am, edited 1 time in total.

User avatar
D2shorthairs
Rank: Junior Hunter
Posts: 53
Joined: Thu Nov 19, 2009 11:57 am
Location: Fredericksburg, Texas

Re: puppy price

Post by D2shorthairs » Wed Jan 06, 2010 8:51 am

I have to totally agree with Zephr.

Here's why I think to say a pup over $500 is insane just doesn't fly. To simplify that argument, say you wanted a race horse and you were buying a colt. The colt out of parents with no race horses in the pedigree is $500. The colt out of the parents with a couple race horses way back in the pedigree is $750. The colt who's parents were very good race horses and who's pedigree is filled with race horses is $1,000. Since you won't know what you have until they are two and feeding and training costs are the same for all (like dogs), which do you choose? I'm going with the $1,000 colt all day. Now once they have produced some older colts and you see who produces race horses the pedigree goes away and breeding that produced becomes important and thus could demand more money. Pretty much the exact argument could apply to dogs there are just more varied goals involved with pups than winning a race.

When you buy a pup your buying potential and there are several factors that would be reason for me to pay more. Just my opinion.

David

gravedigger
Rank: Just A Pup
Posts: 17
Joined: Mon Dec 28, 2009 9:43 am

Re: puppy price

Post by gravedigger » Wed Jan 06, 2010 9:17 am

This has been an interesting thread to say the least.Everyone who has wrote something my hat is off to each and everyone of you.Go back and read the thread and what do you see?I see alot of people that are very passionate and devoted to the betterment of their breed.Even though money is the root of this topic.There has been way more talked about here that that.Each and everyone should congratulate yourselves on the time you spend out their training,trialing,hunting and even showing your dogs.-Shawn

User avatar
3Britts
Rank: 5X Champion
Posts: 1056
Joined: Sat Jan 26, 2008 10:22 am
Location: Northern Utah

Re: puppy price

Post by 3Britts » Wed Jan 06, 2010 11:43 am

Middlecreek wrote:For most I think it would come down to this:
1. In three years, if I put in the time and money to properly develop this puppy what is the "probability" I will have what I am looking for????
2. How much am I willing to pay upfront for that "probability"???
In answer to question one, I couldn't tell you. You can narrow the probability of getting a good dog by doing your research but still get a dog that won't hunt or won't hunt well. Or, you might get a one in a million dog from two unproven or non-hunted dog lines. Like many have said before, It's a crap shoot (with odds).

As for question 2. Only you can say. For me, I have paid up to $850 for a pup out of a breeding that I wanted and from a breeder that I trusted. To me, she was worth the price. I bought her sight unseen and trusted that the breeder would pick me a pup that fit what I was looking for in a bird dog. The only specifics that I asked for was that it be a female and Liver. Todate, I have been more than happy with my choice.

Phezman
Rank: Just A Pup
Posts: 13
Joined: Wed Jan 06, 2010 11:36 am

Re: puppy price

Post by Phezman » Wed Jan 06, 2010 1:35 pm

A few years ago, studies done at the National Championships at the Ames plantation proved so embarassing that they have now buried them.

They found that the Best, Big running Trial dogs in the country found about 5% of available birds on a Quail Planation with remarkable bird populations.

Similar studies at the same time done at Tall Timbers plantation found that more moderate paced hunting pointers found 25-35% of available birds.'

Its interesting to note that in the brace by brace commentary from 2008 and 2009 at Ames, 30-40 % of these dogs are False Pointing...Unproductive points.

These are supposedly the 'best' money can buy, least at the trial game.
Might be time to reevaluate priorities...

While its true you get what you pay for, remember, a Fool and his Money....
I would pay from $500-$1000 for a hunting pup, to do what I need it to, with my training-do proper due diligence!

User avatar
BrettBryan
Rank: Master Hunter
Posts: 252
Joined: Fri Jan 13, 2006 11:12 am
Location: Arlington, TN

Re: puppy price

Post by BrettBryan » Wed Jan 06, 2010 3:03 pm

A pup is worth what the buyer is willing to pay, imo.

When i find the breeding i like, i don't mind paying for the pup. I can see both sides of this argument though. $500 is a lot of money. I paid $600 for my first GSP 8 years ago out of a repeat breeding. Couldn't be happier with the quality of animal i got.

I think the only reason pups aren't higher than they are is 'amount' of breedings out there. Everywhere you look, pups or dogs for sale.

The purchase price of the pup seems minimal to me compared to the cost of feed, vet, and campaigning a dog.

Say you will spend $10,000 on food, vet and campaigning a dog. Which pup you going to buy? The $400 one out of the paper or a $1000 one from a repeat breeding or a breeding with known competitive dogs or known producers? To me, it's a no brainer.

You want a dog that lays around most of the time and will point a bird when you take him hunting three times a year, go with the pup out of the newspaper. If you plan on spending a large sum of money on the animal campaigning him, i'd go with the other pup. just my opinion.

I think it really just goes back to supply, demand.
Old dogs, children, and watermelon wine

kumate
Rank: Master Hunter
Posts: 235
Joined: Mon Sep 29, 2008 8:31 am
Location: HERNANDO fL

Re: puppy price

Post by kumate » Wed Jan 06, 2010 3:47 pm

I never said over 500 was crazy, heck I have paid over 5 myself and am very happy with the dog, and I do not have any pups I am trying to sell first off. I did say I know a man who has a couple of litters he needs to sell due to a heart condition that is forcing him out of the business after over 50 years is what I said. The pup that sold for 800 only did so because I wanted to keep the pup and actually tried to talk the guy out of it by telling him I had turned down other offers, WHICH I HAD. Had I wanted to I could have gotten more for the pup with no problem he wanted her that badly, but I did not do business like that. 1000 is a bit steep but not crazy IMO. What I feel is crazy is the pups sold for twice that and more off nothing but a pedigree when a person can bUy a well started or even finished dog for that price. BTW I have spent enough time around the dog biz to know what these folks do to sell the pups that go for such big money, lots of dirty pool in the business side and a lot of it takes place on the web boards.

But tell me this since you think $$$$ equals quality, how is it that I can go to SEVERAL top line breeders and buy pups for 5-700 buck with no problem. I know for certain that I could right now call 4 top end breeders and not pay over 700 for any pup I want, I won't name drop but I can guarantee I could do it and do it easily.
Duanne, first off who you call a top end breeder and i call a top end breeder are probably not the same breeders. I call top end breeders Shooting Star, Westwind, Walnut hill, sharpshooter, freidelsheim, tate stratton, fred rice- sundance I am sure there are others but these are off of the top of my head and none of them sell pups for 5-700. I am curious to hear of the dirty pool you speak of that gets the big money? What got my money was decades of documented master hunters, and VC's coming from his kennel along with a money back guarantee for life . Gary has a passion for producing great dogs and has a wealth of knowledge about genetics and breeding, it is not a coincidence that people pay this kind of money from all over the country to buy pups from what is most times untitled parents. Not many breeders can do this and demand this kind of money consistently. I am not saying that what you want to pay is wrong only you know that, i am just saying as i said before there is a reason some breeders can consitently demand more coin than others. Serious question what are you talking dirty business that takes place on web boards as a reason that breeders demand more money?

Jerry

User avatar
DSemple
Rank: Junior Hunter
Posts: 61
Joined: Tue Dec 18, 2007 4:51 pm
Location: Kansas

Re: puppy price

Post by DSemple » Wed Jan 06, 2010 3:49 pm

I'm just a hunter and I paid $750.00 for a FC x FC pup 3 years ago that we have shot over 500 pheasants over already. She pretty routinely has 30 to 50 finds a day and is a retrieving fool both on land and in water. Best $750 bucks I ever spent!
I'm always happy when I make it thru another bird season with my dogs, my gun and my truck.

It's an added plus if I manage to keep my wife, my house or my job.

Phezman
Rank: Just A Pup
Posts: 13
Joined: Wed Jan 06, 2010 11:36 am

Re: puppy price

Post by Phezman » Wed Jan 06, 2010 4:39 pm

it is not a coincidence that people pay this kind of money from all over the country to buy pups from what is most times untitled parents.
A Fool and his money.
I wouldnt take one of his pups for free.
He is a lazy breeder and does the breed a disservice.

I will stick to German Hunt tests standards, the very ones that created, established and perpetuate these breeds.

kumate
Rank: Master Hunter
Posts: 235
Joined: Mon Sep 29, 2008 8:31 am
Location: HERNANDO fL

Re: puppy price

Post by kumate » Wed Jan 06, 2010 7:55 pm

A Fool and his money.
I wouldnt take one of his pups for free.
He is a lazy breeder and does the breed a disservice.

I will stick to German Hunt tests standards, the very ones that created, established and perpetuate these breeds.
lol , That wouldnt be a problem because you wouldnt get one for free. I dont bird hunt, as i do not have bird opps around me, there are fools with money and then there are just fools. Curious how many vc's and Mh have your keenel produced?

Jerry

volraider
Rank: 3X Champion
Posts: 503
Joined: Thu Mar 31, 2005 5:00 pm
Location: Tn

Re: puppy price

Post by volraider » Wed Jan 06, 2010 8:08 pm

Phezman,

To say Gary is a lazy breeder just shows your ignorance of GSP's. Lazy breeders are the ones who breed on paper without knowing anything about the animals they breed too. I would bet that Jacob vd Westwind is responsible for more UT I dogs in the last 10 years than about any dog out there. DK's and gsp's compliment each other very well and that's why people make these crosses. About every NAVHDA breeding out there crosses something that goes back to Hustler to something German and these breedings have tremendous success.

Brian

birddoggin
Rank: Just A Pup
Posts: 10
Joined: Wed Jan 06, 2010 8:56 pm

Re: puppy price

Post by birddoggin » Wed Jan 06, 2010 9:13 pm

DK's and gsp's compliment each other very well and that's why people make these crosses.
If the dogs were decent to begin with and threw themselves or better, they wouldnt need to cross breed dogs or registries, imo.

birddoggin
Rank: Just A Pup
Posts: 10
Joined: Wed Jan 06, 2010 8:56 pm

Re: puppy price

Post by birddoggin » Wed Jan 06, 2010 10:35 pm

So, why do you think Dk and GSP is cross breeding?

I quoted Volraider...his statement was honest. There is Cross breeding of registries.
The DK club has heated arguments over this issue and does allow it, for now.
His statement is below if you missed it..
DK's and gsp's compliment each other very well and that's why people make these crosses.
The only thing this has to do with puppy prices is that it relates to hunting dogs, registries.
Its as germaine as your post, or moreso, upon second thought.

volraider
Rank: 3X Champion
Posts: 503
Joined: Thu Mar 31, 2005 5:00 pm
Location: Tn

Re: puppy price

Post by volraider » Wed Jan 06, 2010 10:54 pm

birddoggin,

When I said crossed I was using it as another word for breeding. I do see a difference in some gsp (1/2 pointers) but most gsp's are just descendants of DK's that were bred to like bitches that suited the american hunting style. Dk guys really limit their gene pool by being kennel blind. If a gsp meets standard and passes the german testing system for breeding then it should be allowed to be registered as a DK. Most of us hunters don't have the time or money to put a KS title or a field title on a dog. Instead of spending 3 or 4 grand testing and trialing I would rather spend that money in S.D. chasing chickens and shooting pheasants, or in Wisc grouse hunting.

birddoggin
Rank: Just A Pup
Posts: 10
Joined: Wed Jan 06, 2010 8:56 pm

Re: puppy price

Post by birddoggin » Wed Jan 06, 2010 11:16 pm

It doesnt cost $3-4 grand to title a dog in the German system.
3 tests, keep the scores, only test twice in each one unlike Navhda
Their tests are only run on Wild game as well, no planted chickens. Hare, pheasant and quail in the field work.
Then Forest blood tracking, then water work.. Different priorities based on their hunting requirements.
If a gsp meets standard and passes the german testing system for breeding then it should be allowed to be registered

It aint gonna meet the standard or pass anything, because it cant test, in their system.
Once you lose registration its gone. The DK breed is in fine shape in Germany, Denmark and other nations in Europe.

DKs Breeders are not limited.
They are THE Original Breed..That IS the DK, the true one.
Once bred out of their system, its gone, cant be tracked, there is no reason for them to accept GSPs.
It would destroy their breeding program, as they require and demand a Versatile dog to hunt many different game, including big game.
GSPs trial dogs would not effective or efficient workers in Europe.

It'd be like trying to use an American bred German Shepherd for Police work. .Aint gonna happen. You;d have worthless dogs and dead cops real soon.
There's a reason our forces import their K9 dogs from Europe and the original breed clubs..

User avatar
Elkhunter
Rank: 5X Champion
Posts: 1059
Joined: Thu Feb 07, 2008 12:42 pm
Location: Idaho

Re: puppy price

Post by Elkhunter » Thu Jan 07, 2010 12:46 am

Kinda like there is a reason we dont have 80 LB floppy eared german plodding dogs out canvasing the prairies... kinda ineffective!!

User avatar
3Britts
Rank: 5X Champion
Posts: 1056
Joined: Sat Jan 26, 2008 10:22 am
Location: Northern Utah

Re: puppy price

Post by 3Britts » Thu Jan 07, 2010 11:36 am

Well, so much for the subject of puppy pricing.
See ya.

Post Reply