puppy price

birddogger · Post by **birddogger** » Wed Dec 30, 2009 5:30 pm

I think that some big name breeders think they are the only ones who should or no how to breed. However, there are alot of us small guys and gals out there who are very capable of making a good, well planned breeding. The so called, back yard breeder, is probably going to have a hard time getting the price that a good, big name kennel can get.

There is nothing wrong with the professional breeders and trainers getting top price. I am sure they earn every penny of it. I have no problem with the price they ask. I just think that some, not most, consider the small guy a threat, and is not capable of making a good breeding. I may be way off base here, but it is just the way it seems to me.

On the other hand, if you are having problems selling a litter, double the price. They might sell like hot cakes. :roll:

Charlie

Joe Amatulli · Post by **Joe Amatulli** » Wed Dec 30, 2009 5:56 pm

Greg you pretty much got it right, you increase your odds by getting a pup from a proven breeder and from proven dogs, but it is still a crap shoot and like I said 70 to 80% of what the dog becomes is what you put into it. All I am saying is considering the time and money you put into the pup the cost of the pup is nothing and it seems to me that if you want a top performing dog, spend the money and buy from a top producing breeder. If all you are interested in is a nice pet go to the pound they have plenty. And for those who want to breed their dogs for the sake of either making some money or for “I just wanted to see what they would produce” there are plenty of those pups at the pound also. If you are not breeding to get better than what you have, you have no business doing it regardless of what you are try to produce all you are is a disgrace to the dog world and you should be ashamed of yourself!

sjkennels · Post by **sjkennels** » Wed Dec 30, 2009 6:36 pm

i know what you mean by them costing a lot of money. but think of this. no matter if you pay 100 or 5000 for a pup/dog thats the cheapest part of owning one.

briarpatch · Post by **briarpatch** » Wed Dec 30, 2009 7:13 pm

I think that some big name breeders think they are the only ones who should or no how to breed. However, there are alot of us small guys and gals out there who are very capable of making a good, well planned breeding. The so called, back yard breeder, is probably going to have a hard time getting the price that a good, big name kennel can get.

There is nothing wrong with the professional breeders and trainers getting top price. I am sure they earn every penny of it. I have no problem with the price they ask. I just think that some, not most, consider the small guy a threat, and is not capable of making a good breeding. I may be way off base here, but it is just the way it seems to me

I am not a breeder, but I must comment
A hobby breeder is not the same as a backyard breeder in my eyes
a hobby breeder takes dogs from proven lines performs heath tests, perhaps some hunt tests and attempts to breed a quality animal ..
a back yard breeder (in my opinion) is one who takes dogs from not known lines or not tested animals and breeds them to make a buck (not looking to breed quality ) not a puppy mill dog but just a mom and pop with a backyard with two dogs of the same breed, with no reguards for testing the parents or bettering the breed, just got OLE HENREY and he hunts good he founds birds and bred him to Ole Blue She killed the neighbers cat Probably be a good huntin puppies heck they akc registered and all ....pedigree empty of titles (thats what i call backyard )

Most big name breeders I talked to though have no problem with hobby breeders / They all started out as a hobby breeder sometime in their life but may have a problem with backyard breeders in that aspect as I refered to above...

Of course a hobby breeder isnt going to get as much money as a well known breeder who is known for quality breedings and has a reputation for standing behind what they breed..If your unknown hobbiest you have to build that type of reputation..

just some more of my thoughts

birddogger · Post by **birddogger** » Wed Dec 30, 2009 8:10 pm

briarpatch wrote:
I think that some big name breeders think they are the only ones who should or no how to breed. However, there are alot of us small guys and gals out there who are very capable of making a good, well planned breeding. The so called, back yard breeder, is probably going to have a hard time getting the price that a good, big name kennel can get.

There is nothing wrong with the professional breeders and trainers getting top price. I am sure they earn every penny of it. I have no problem with the price they ask. I just think that some, not most, consider the small guy a threat, and is not capable of making a good breeding. I may be way off base here, but it is just the way it seems to me
I am not a breeder, but I must comment
A hobby breeder is not the same as a backyard breeder in my eyes
a hobby breeder takes dogs from proven lines performs heath tests, perhaps some hunt tests and attempts to breed a quality animal ..
a back yard breeder (in my opinion) is one who takes dogs from not known lines or not tested animals and breeds them to make a buck (not looking to breed quality ) not a puppy mill dog but just a mom and pop with a backyard with two dogs of the same breed, with no reguards for testing the parents or bettering the breed, just got OLE HENREY and he hunts good he founds birds and bred him to Ole Blue She killed the neighbers cat Probably be a good huntin puppies heck they akc registered and all ....pedigree empty of titles (thats what i call backyard )

Most big name breeders I talked to though have no problem with hobby breeders / They all started out as a hobby breeder sometime in their life but may have a problem with backyard breeders in that aspect as I refered to above...

Of course a hobby breeder isnt going to get as much money as a well known breeder who is known for quality breedings and has a reputation for standing behind what they breed..If your unknown hobbiest you have to build that type of reputation..

just some more of my thoughts

briarpatch, I totally agree with you. I only used the term, back yard breeder, because that is what some call them. I was talking about the guy or gal who does a smart,well planned breeding. Also, when I made a comment about the big name breeders, I said some, not most. I, also, have a problem with people who breed dogs just to see what they get. Forget about the term, back yard breeder, we are on the same page here.

Charlie

Gezer · Post by **Gezer** » Wed Dec 30, 2009 9:41 pm

http://www.gundogbreeders.com/classifieds/7970.html

cut and paste

ElhewPointer · Post by **ElhewPointer** » Thu Dec 31, 2009 8:12 am

In the pointer world, I would say that most of the Champion dogs come from hobby breeders and not from full time breeding kennels. There are a lot of "hobby breeders" that produce very quality animals.

Vagas

Post by **ezzy333** » Thu Dec 31, 2009 8:17 am

ElhewPointer wrote:In the pointer world, I would say that most of the Champion dogs come from hobby breeders and not from full time breeding kennels. There are a lot of "hobby breeders" that produce very quality animals.

Vagas

I think this is true in most breeds. The backyard or hobby breeder spend more time studying pedigrees and performance while many business type kennels breed dogs they can sell and make some money with. Both have their place. and like always there are many exceptions to the norm.

Ezzy

Joe Amatulli · Post by **Joe Amatulli** » Thu Dec 31, 2009 8:41 am

I make no distention between a “hobby” breeder and a full time breeder as a matter of fact I do not know of any full time breeders in the GSP world, but I most certainly make a distention between hobby and backyard breeders, Charlie and Briarpatch I totally agree with you. The BACKYARD breeder is NOT breeding dogs to better the breed, but for some other distorted reason and there are pounds full of their demented justifications. These people should be put in the cages next to those poor pups.

birddogger · Post by **birddogger** » Thu Dec 31, 2009 9:41 am

Well said Joe.

Charlie

postoakshorthairs · Post by **postoakshorthairs** » Thu Dec 31, 2009 10:33 am

I tried to resist commenting on this thread but I just can't

First of all..I agree that when planning a breeding you should be doing it with the intent of improving what you have or replicating what you have that you like but, and here's a big but, everyone has their own idea about what's good, what needs improved etc. Even if you just think only "titled" dogs should be reproduced...what titles? NSTRA, AKC FC, SHOW CH.??? Even among "titled" dogs are those that have traits that shouldn't be reproduced and those people who particpate in different venues can't agree on which venue shows that a dog's "proven" itself worthy of breeding. I'm nothing more than a hunter who trials/tests a little as I have time/money to do so, but i've been around a couple of guys that trial a lot..one being a "pro". I believe, for the most part, that they plan their breedings (mostly FC's or derby winners)with good intentions on trying catch lightning in a bottle. What usually happens is one or two are held back for evaluation...or they're all held for a little while until they're old enough for evaluation....then most, or all, are sold as gun dogs because they don't have what it takes. Look at the for sale postings on any site, it's always full of started/finished dogs for sale out of this or that field champion "not enough run for trialing"...even with the best of intentions and planning most pups produced aren't going to improve what you've got. So who puts more dogs out every year that might end up in the pound...a hobby breeder with one litter or a kennel putting out several? Then there are big kennels who breed plenty of litters a yearand don't keep any dogs out of a litter. Now i'm not saying there's anything wrong with that, but how do you know if your improving the breed..or at least what you have...if the last time you see them is at 7 weeks of age??? It's for the money!!

As far as puppy prices go--I don't know why the average hunter, especially those who don't have the time or know how to train a pup, would buy a puppy in this economy, because you can buy a pup for 300-1000 (or more) that may turn out, or you can look at about any of the sites or boards that dogs are posted for sale and find some really nice started or finished dogs for about the same money...then you know what you've got. JMO

3Britts · Post by **3Britts** » Thu Dec 31, 2009 11:52 am

postoakshorthairs wrote:I tried to resist commenting on this thread but I just can't

First of all..I agree that when planning a breeding you should be doing it with the intent of improving what you have or replicating what you have that you like but, and here's a big but, everyone has their own idea about what's good, what needs improved etc. Even if you just think only "titled" dogs should be reproduced...what titles? NSTRA, AKC FC, SHOW CH.??? Even among "titled" dogs are those that have traits that shouldn't be reproduced and those people who particpate in different venues can't agree on which venue shows that a dog's "proven" itself worthy of breeding. I'm nothing more than a hunter who trials/tests a little as I have time/money to do so, but i've been around a couple of guys that trial a lot..one being a "pro". I believe, for the most part, that they plan their breedings (mostly FC's or derby winners)with good intentions on trying catch lightning in a bottle. What usually happens is one or two are held back for evaluation...or they're all held for a little while until they're old enough for evaluation....then most, or all, are sold as gun dogs because they don't have what it takes. Look at the for sale postings on any site, it's always full of started/finished dogs for sale out of this or that field champion "not enough run for trialing"...even with the best of intentions and planning most pups produced aren't going to improve what you've got. So who puts more dogs out every year that might end up in the pound...a hobby breeder with one litter or a kennel putting out several? Then there are big kennels who breed plenty of litters a yearand don't keep any dogs out of a litter. Now i'm not saying there's anything wrong with that, but how do you know if your improving the breed..or at least what you have...if the last time you see them is at 7 weeks of age??? It's for the money!!

As far as puppy prices go--I don't know why the average hunter, especially those who don't have the time or know how to train a pup, would buy a puppy in this economy, because you can buy a pup for 300-1000 (or more) that may turn out, or you can look at about any of the sites or boards that dogs are posted for sale and find some really nice started or finished dogs for about the same money...then you know what you've got. JMO

Nicely said.

Finally a post where the ego was kept out of it.

The reasoning behind a person's breeding his or her dog/s is something that will be debated until who knows when. The only person's reasons for breeding that I fully understand are my own. I personally do not breed until there is a demand for my puppies. I will not produce a litter with my dogs unless I have a waiting list that is at least as long as the last litter was big. Then I must consider if I want to go through all that it takes past the point of conception to get the puppies to their new families. If any think it is for the money they are wrong. Remove the hunting that I do, the feed and medical care that goes into caring for my dog, the initial expense of purchasing the animal. I still have to show case my dogs so that the serious owner will be interested. I guide and trial my dogs, mostly because of the social aspects that I receive, but also to show off my dogs just a bit. Because I do this, I have a list of 14 interested people in coming litter, four with deposits even though the whelping will not take place until around Jan. 31, 2010. Most of these coming from persons who have either watched my dogs trial or hunt or have watched previously produced puppies out of my dogs trial or hunt.

Did I choose my dogs with care? Yes. I looked at the sire and dam, watched those that were near enough work their dog, talked to those that I trusted about the breeder and the dogs being paired, looked at the pedigrees and then stuck my hand over the fence to see which pup came. I did what most would deem were the right things to do when buying a puppy, and still had to trust that the puppy would do what I needed it to do. All that being said, I have hunted behind dogs that had none of the above done before purchasing and had no titled dogs in their past 4 generations. These dogs, much like those that I have hunted behind with full titled pedigrees, got the job done and done well. And, some of these dogs, much like those that have full pedigrees, couldn't find birds tied to their noses.

So what does this mean to the price of puppies? My dogs go for around $500 to $650 because that is the price that I choose to sell them at based on the line that they come from and past accomplishments. This is just the way that I do it, others do it in the manner that suits them and I say "more power to them."

Ron R · Post by **Ron R** » Thu Dec 31, 2009 12:23 pm

3Britts wrote:I will not produce a litter with my dogs unless I have a waiting list that is at least as long as the last litter was big.

3Britts wrote: I have a list of 14 interested people in coming litter, four with deposits even though the whelping will not take place until around Jan. 31, 2010.

Braggert,
Just kidding

I may have 10 pups to start with but after culling I may only have six and only a couple left to sell. I will admit that I'm jealous of your 14 person waiting list.

Ron

Shadow · Post by **Shadow** » Thu Dec 31, 2009 12:42 pm

I've bred three of my females with three of my males over the years- in the back yard- maybe you should be put in a cage

Joe Amatulli · Post by **Joe Amatulli** » Thu Dec 31, 2009 12:48 pm

Postoaks it doesn’t matter if you are trying to improve on a hunting dog or a horse back dog, or a NAVADA, or NSTRA or any other working class, except for show (which is an other subject) as long as you are breeding to improve, not just for the sake of “let’s see what we get” you are a responsible breeder and are entitled to receive a premium for those pups.
3 Britts if I understand you right you are saying that as long as you can sell them you don’t care what they are. If that is the case you are no different than a puppy mill.

Ron R · Post by **Ron R** » Thu Dec 31, 2009 12:53 pm

Shadow wrote:I've bred three of my females with three of my males over the years- in the back yard- maybe you should be put in a cage

Who should be put in a cage?

Happy New Year
Ron

3Britts · Post by **3Britts** » Thu Dec 31, 2009 1:07 pm

Joe Amatulli wrote:Postoaks it doesn’t matter if you are trying to improve on a hunting dog or a horse back dog, or a NAVADA, or NSTRA or any other working class, except for show (which is an other subject) as long as you are breeding to improve, not just for the sake of “let’s see what we get” you are a responsible breeder and are entitled to receive a premium for those pups.
3 Britts if I understand you right you are saying that as long as you can sell them you don’t care what they are. If that is the case you are no different than a puppy mill.

Joe,

That is not what I am saying. I am saying that most do not know why a person breeds. I am saying that breeding when you do not have much of a chance of selling the pups is wrong. As for calling someone a puppy mill, you couldn't be more wrong. I have bred my dogs because I have three excellent hunting dogs that I believed, when combined, would make even better hunting dogs. I receive emails from those who have my puppies to back this up. My dogs tend to go to people because of referrals. Puppy mills breed, sell what they can and kill the rest.
As for your comment that only thos who breed to improve the breed. Please use your vast wisdom to define what it means to imporve the breed. I for one would love to hear your explanation. Tell me if I am improving the breed by trying to breed dogs with drive, natural abilities, are inside of standard and have a family necessary temperment.

Shadow · Post by **Shadow** » Thu Dec 31, 2009 1:41 pm

Joe Amatulli wrote: The BACKYARD breeder is NOT breeding dogs to better the breed, but for some other distorted reason and there are pounds full of their demented justifications. These people should be put in the cages next to those poor pups.

Joe Amatulli · Post by **Joe Amatulli** » Thu Dec 31, 2009 1:53 pm

Well why didn’t you say that in the first place! I have no problem with anyone trying to produce quality anything and quite frankly a quality trial dog is very often a great hunting dog and very often the reverse is true, after all most of us started as bird hunters that enjoy a hard working dog more than just pulling the trigger.
Now for getting back to the subject a hand, “the price of a pup” well think of it this way how many NFCs are out there, how many champions, how many FC, SHs, MHs, JHs, hunting dogs and so on, it stands to reason that the rarer the titles and more winning the dogs, the more those pups are worth. Add to that a proven breeder that has given a breeding a lot of thought, than it seems to me that those pups should go for a premium and the reverse is also true, breeding 2 hunting dogs is simply not worth the same as two national champions.

Shadow · Post by **Shadow** » Thu Dec 31, 2009 1:57 pm

you're the one putting labels on folks who breed- you should turn back and do some thinking-

ElhewPointer · Post by **ElhewPointer** » Thu Dec 31, 2009 2:16 pm

Joe Amatulli wrote:Now for getting back to the subject a hand, “the price of a pup” well think of it this way how many NFCs are out there, how many champions, how many FC, SHs, MHs, JHs, hunting dogs and so on, it stands to reason that the rarer the titles and more winning the dogs, the more those pups are worth. Add to that a proven breeder that has given a breeding a lot of thought, than it seems to me that those pups should go for a premium and the reverse is also true, breeding 2 hunting dogs is simply not worth the same as two national champions.

I agree that better bred pups should be worth more, however I don't care for this line of thinking. If you have a blue hen that is a great producer, you still can't charge as much because she is with any titles.

So is this your line of thinking: Standard pup $350
in 4 gen ped.
additional charges include
JH $5
SH $10
MH $20
CH $50($30 each over the 1st one)
RU-CH $30

Post by **ezzy333** » Thu Dec 31, 2009 2:28 pm

Joe Amatulli wrote:I make no distention between a “hobby” breeder and a full time breeder as a matter of fact I do not know of any full time breeders in the GSP world, but I most certainly make a distention between hobby and backyard breeders, Charlie and Briarpatch I totally agree with you. The BACKYARD breeder is NOT breeding dogs to better the breed, but for some other distorted reason and there are pounds full of their demented justifications. These people should be put in the cages next to those poor pups.

I have no idea how to make people understand that there are people with different ideas of what a good dog should be than what our ideas are. And they may be just as valid as our own. I see three general areas that make up the quality of our breeds today. There is first a breed standard that needs to be adhered to, the field or hunting abilities, and the home and family companion abilities. Without concern for each area there is little evidence that a breed is being improved.

If someone like Joe, who places his emphasis on trial abilities then he will breed to improve those areas and the same is true of the show(breed standard) people or the people who are only interested in the companion side. They each can improve the area they are interested in but one area does not a better dog make. And no matter how hard they try to say people with different goals than their own are just second rate breeders there is no evidence that is true. Most people pick a breed that fills there idea of a good dog, but then forget what it took to get that breed to the place it is today. We can change any one area of our dogs quite easily but we need a much broader view if we are to even begin to improve the breed.

It is human nature to think that what we like is what everyone should like. There is nothing wrong with that but when we get to the point where we feel what we like is the one and only opinion that counts we have lost the perspective of what really makes up our breed and what it takes to improve them in all areas that are part of their makeup.

If you want an outstanding field trial dog I would sure look at the dogs that Joe has bred. if you want some excellent show dogs I would sure look at Honeyrun's an if you want a great dog that has been proven in all areas and is producing pups that compete or excel in all areas then I would go to Rick's Fritz breeding. Knowing what we do today which breeding do you think will go down in history as improving the breed overall?

Ezzy

lvrgsp · Post by **lvrgsp** » Thu Dec 31, 2009 2:35 pm

Joe Amatulli wrote:
Now for getting back to the subject a hand, “the price of a pup” well think of it this way how many NFCs are out there, how many champions, how many FC, SHs, MHs, JHs, hunting dogs and so on, it stands to reason that the rarer the titles and more winning the dogs, the more those pups are worth. Add to that a proven breeder that has given a breeding a lot of thought, than it seems to me that those pups should go for a premium and the reverse is also true, breeding 2 hunting dogs is simply not worth the same as two national champions.

Ok once again I'll bite here Joe.....NFC Tonelli's Rising Sun x 2 NGDC BDK'S Shake The Bank...correct me if I am wrong here, did they not do that breeding and did those pups not cost something like $1500 or maybe $2000 a piece as pups? What came of any of the pups? Should be some FC's, AFC's, Species Ch's or Reg Ch's right, heck maybe a NFC? Better be for the money and the price of the pups right? I mean according to you there worth more, so did they come through? Now according to you as well 70-80% is what you put in the dog right? So I'll make you a deal Joe...heck man I'll give you one of my $350 backyard bred pups doubled up on Hoosier Buddy (we all know what kind of a producer he was)x some double Saddle breeding.There again there just two ole hunting dawgs, but give em 70 -80% and there ya go another Champion in the making.
I WILL GIVE YOU PICK OF THE LITTER....Whattya say

Joe Amatulli · Post by **Joe Amatulli** » Thu Dec 31, 2009 3:12 pm

Yes Ezzy that is correct except for one thing, my dogs are great companions, are great bird dogs and on top of that they have all won numerous championships. Doesn’t it stand to reason that the dogs that can do more are simply worth more? Going back to that Ferrari, both the Ferrari and the Taurus will get you to the market, but boy until you get into a Ferrari you just don’t really know how great it is to go to the market.
Elhew, when Wehle (not sure of the spelling) sold an Elhew pup he always got a premium not because of he thought his pups where going to be great hunting dogs or great companions, but because he was a proven winner and you where pretty sure that the pup you where getting had the potential of winning a lot of championships if not just find a lot of birds.
Lvrgsp sounds like some good blood, but I have plenty of my own that I am very happy with. I don’t know about that Sonny litter, but yes if they got into the right hands (big part of the equation) they should produce, but there too did the breeder do that breeding just because or did he look at both dogs and say this one throws a lot of style or run or what ever and mine can use that. There is a lot more to breeding two dogs than just letting them breed! And as they say buyer beware because not all breeders or all breedings are equal.

lvrgsp · Post by **lvrgsp** » Thu Dec 31, 2009 3:22 pm

No no no Joe, they already did that breeding a few years ago...Where's the results of those two NFC's? I WANNA KNOW!!!!!!!!
I am sure you are happy with your breeding...but to your point breed NFC to NFC and there worth more always? I say no. But I agree 100% with you that 70-80% is what the owner makes the dog....yea the genetics have to be there, but I agree you have to harness and develop it, and spend countless hours with the dog to bring it out.....thats where pro's come in. Very very few Amatuers can say I have achieved this and that with out the help of a pro, it's just what they do. There again $1000 vs $350 wheres the difference?
And to my point there again...your paying for that NFC title, not just the litter right?.........?..........?..........?

JMO

Joe Amatulli · Post by **Joe Amatulli** » Thu Dec 31, 2009 4:22 pm

Well all I can say is I don’t know what others have done all I can attest to is what I have done. Every time I have breed a dog I have always breed to improve over what I had, but you first have to have the ability to recognize the short comings of your dog! My first breeding I can not say that, that was true, (should have never bread a bitch, she had so many problems), but I did breed to a national champion and did improve over what the bitch was, not that, that was very difficult, but did get two FCs out of it. The next time I bread a dog, I wised up some and studied what works and bread to a derby that was the best young dog I had ever seen, that breeding produced over 50 championships and 12 national titles, not counting AKC, I think I may have gotten that one right! My next breeding was Selina to Saddle, only 5 pups 1 died, one was injured and could not compete another went for big dollars to a preserve and my two are still competing and have both won championships and one runner up nationals. I bread Shelby last year and I can tell you right now this litter will win championships. I will also tell you that one of those pups out of Shelby was resold for $5,000.00, I am not going to say to whom because he does come onto this site. If you think that those pups sold for as much as they did because they are good house dogs, you need to buy that bridge I have for sale. No there is no guarantee that breeding two NFCs is going to get you a national champion, but you what you have a shoot and you know what else the odds are a lot higher than trying to get one from a back yard breeder. Just keep in mind that there is more to producing a NFC that just the breeding.
Lvrgsp I do like your breeding and am going to give this offer a bit more though.

Joe Amatulli · Post by **Joe Amatulli** » Thu Dec 31, 2009 4:55 pm

Lvrgsp you may very well have national caliber blood, but until you prove you have national caliber dogs it is just a hope, you have to prove that before you can say it. I do have national caliber blood and have proven that they are national caliber because they have won it many times. So there is no hoping and a wishing it is a fact and that my friend is worth a lot more than just a maybe.

Post by **ezzy333** » Thu Dec 31, 2009 5:56 pm

Joe Amatulli wrote:Yes Ezzy that is correct except for one thing, my dogs are great companions, are great bird dogs and on top of that they have all won numerous championships. Doesn’t it stand to reason that the dogs that can do more are simply worth more? Going back to that Ferrari, both the Ferrari and the Taurus will get you to the market, but boy until you get into a Ferrari you just don’t really know how great it is to go to the market.
Elhew, when Wehle (not sure of the spelling) sold an Elhew pup he always got a premium not because of he thought his pups where going to be great hunting dogs or great companions, but because he was a proven winner and you where pretty sure that the pup you where getting had the potential of winning a lot of championships if not just find a lot of birds.
Lvrgsp sounds like some good blood, but I have plenty of my own that I am very happy with. I don’t know about that Sonny litter, but yes if they got into the right hands (big part of the equation) they should produce, but there too did the breeder do that breeding just because or did he look at both dogs and say this one throws a lot of style or run or what ever and mine can use that. There is a lot more to breeding two dogs than just letting them breed! And as they say buyer beware because not all breeders or all breedings are equal.

Good point Joe. I have to agree with you. But let me tell you that you have no idea how nice it is getting home with a load of groceries in that Taurus instead of having to make three trips with a Ferrari. Just goes to prove that specialty cars as well as specialty bred dogs are great when you use them in the area of their abilities but for something that gets you to the market and home again you maybe better off with the complete package that can do both.

I am not in anyway disputing that pups bred to perform on a given field are worth more than the ones that aren't if their area is what you are wanting but the same is true of the people who have different interest. A pup out of a line of bench Champions is worth a lot more to the person looking for a show dog than one of your trial bred dogs. Price is only what two people agree on, what you the seller thinks they are worth and what the buyer thinks they are worth. So it still depends on what you are wanting and not necessarily that one pup is better than the next.

Happy New Year

Ezzy

Ricky Ticky Shorthairs · Post by **Ricky Ticky Shorthairs** » Thu Dec 31, 2009 6:06 pm

Ok once again I'll bite here Joe.....NFC Tonelli's Rising Sun x 2 NGDC BDK'S Shake The Bank...correct me if I am wrong here, did they not do that breeding and did those pups not cost something like $1500 or maybe $2000 a piece as pups? What came of any of the pups? Should be some FC's, AFC's, Species Ch's or Reg Ch's right, heck maybe a NFC? Better be for the money and the price of the pups right?

I know a little bit about these lines... so here goes.

I think Goegan has one on his website as a stud dog.(good lookin' dog, but I don't know anything about him.) Both of those dogs have produced good dogs, but it looks like in this case not when crossed with each other. I think that breeding was done to make money more than anything else.

They did cross Shake and Flash when Woody's still owned Flash. Three pups in that litter. All 3 are FC's. Bobby, Breaker, and Pockets.
Bobby and Breaker are Ch's I believe, and I think Breaker went RU at Eureka, and I'm not positive, but I think Bobby has placed at Eureka too. Pockets did not get campaigned as much as the other two, or he'd probably be a CH too. I'm not for sure, but I heard that Breaker went for 2000 plus as a puppy. The Blue Max lines have a long history of Nat Championships, and it seems to me that linebreeding on that line produces winners.

IMO price depends on who is buying and who is selling. I know quite a few trial dogs that didn't cost their owners a dime, because they were sold as trial dogs and the breeders knew that they would be campaigned. Charging 1000 plus for puppies might just put those pups out of reach of the upstart field trialer, WHICH IN TURN KEEPS THE BEST PUPS OUT OF THE HANDS OF THE FUTURE PARTICIPANTS IN OUR SPORT.

When the homework is done and the right dogs are crossed, you get results. Bobby or Breaker are very capable of winning a NC. Probably just a matter of time.

JMO
Doug

vzkennels · Post by **vzkennels** » Thu Dec 31, 2009 6:45 pm

Regardless of breeding,price,etc the dogs have to be put in the right hands & trialed.The dog (Jackson) Goegan has on his string out of Sonny & Shake is pointed & should finish but were any of the other pups trialed ? This dog spent most of his life on a plantation in Georgia as a guide dog & the boy that owns him was offered almost 2x what he paid for him & turned it down.
It takes money to campaign a dog & people that have a little money don't mind spending it to succeed & just because some one pays big bucks for a dog doesn't garauntee anything.If that dog don't work out they just go buy another untill they get what they want.
Whether this makes any sense or not I doubt too many people are going to spend a few dollars on a pup from no name breedings then spend thousands to campaign it.

If I had a garauntee some one would campaign a dog out of my breeding I would give them the dog but those garauntees are worthless & you can say all you want about law suites etc.

Here is a little something else to think about,none of us can garauntee any dog we sell,give away,co own, or what ever,will become a CH whether it be FC,NSTRA Ch,Show Ch etc.
No matter how well it is or isn't bred or how much we think it is or isn't worth.

Razor · Post by **Razor** » Thu Dec 31, 2009 7:53 pm

If you want to see puppy prices, look at lab pups with titled parents. One puppy out of a frozen NFC will bring more than an entire pointing dog litter. If you have a good derby dog with potential, the price could scare you. Be happy with the price of pointing dogs, and hope they do not reach this level.

birdogg42 · Post by **birdogg42** » Thu Dec 31, 2009 8:41 pm

Joe Amatulli wrote:The next time I bread a dog, I wised up some and studied what works and bread to a derby that was the best young dog I had ever seen, that breeding produced over 50 championships and 12 national titles, not counting AKC, I think I may have gotten that one right! My next breeding was Selina to Saddle, only 5 pups 1 died, one was injured and could not compete another went for big dollars to a preserve and my two are still competing and have both won championships and one runner up nationals.
Lvrgsp I do like your breeding and am going to give this offer a bit more though.

I dont know jack crap about shorthairs as i am a pointer man but if you had that much success with that young derby then why didnt you repeat that breeding?

What do you got to lose on taking a free pick of the litter pup from Lvrgsp? (no sarcasm)

Not trying to start a pissing match. Just wondering

dudleysmith · Post by **dudleysmith** » Thu Dec 31, 2009 9:56 pm

Breeding dogs is a art that no human will ever master.

Joe Amatulli · Post by **Joe Amatulli** » Fri Jan 01, 2010 9:20 am

Happy New Year all! Well do I know how to get things started or what!
I think you’ve been answered Lvrgsp, but yes………yes…………yes………lets talk a little history. NFC Sanjo’s Sin City Slicker was bread to NFC Heidi Ho Pinehurst that produced, I believe 4 dogs with championships, three of them NFC, but the one I am going to talk about is multiple NFC Heidi’s Sin City Slicker was bread to NFC Marsha’s Southern Affair that produced the all time male championship winner and also multiple NFC Tracus and the best young dog I have ever seen Damar’s Southern Comfort that was bread to 2 time runner up national champion Ravenswood Starlite Express (my dog) that produced a litter that won over 50 championships and the all time championship winner and 6 time NFC Tulli’s Scatback (Salina). Salina was bread to runner up national champion Saddle and produced (so far) a runner up national champion Tulli’s Shelby. Shelby was bread to NFC Nuke a little over a year ago and I can tell you right now that litter will win championships. Now as far as Nuke is concerned he has dominated the futurity for that past 5 years along with at least 1 NFC. Now where did Nuke come from, well of course a NFC Ramblin Danny! Do I need to go any further?
National Champions produce National Champions, is it a guarantee, heck NO, but you have improved your odds.

Birddog no that breeding was not repeated, first I breed for myself and although I had plenty of buyers that litter almost killed my dog and she was a very, very mean mother.

kumate · Post by **kumate** » Fri Jan 01, 2010 9:30 am

I have never even seen a field trial much less had a dog in one. I have had 2 GSP'S my first i bought from a hobby breeder in missouri i didnt know anything about breedings then he died of lymphoma at 10, When he was almost 9 i started searching for a new pup. The NAVDHA lines of gsp's seemed to be what i wanted even though i dont compete in NAVDHA. My search led me to Westwind, I called and after my first 2 contacts with Gary i made a post on a shorthair forum about my initial contact and that spending 1000 for a puppy and after the flight and another 100 he charged to take the pup to the airport, to get the pup to me was 1400. I told him i didnt bird hunt, but was active liked to camp, fish and small game hunt and may be interested in hunt tests down the road

I told him i wanted a dog with alot of drive as i was interested in agility. He said what you need is a buddy dog, i am thinking yikes, while i do want a buddy i want a high drive athlete too, i am spending $1400 and i could buy plenty local for 200 - 500. After several phone conversations i sent my deposit for my PUP and he is about 17mths now and i couldnt be happier. I will say i was apprehensive as my first few contacts with him was not the greatest. On his website on his puppies available page he is advertising a litter from yrs ago and he wasnt the nicest when quetioned about it, my pup was from untiled parents, i got no picture of the pups he made that clear right off, he picks accordin to what you tell him and seems to sell pups for what turns into 1400 if shipped as fast as they hit the ground.

Jerry

Ricky Ticky Shorthairs · Post by **Ricky Ticky Shorthairs** » Fri Jan 01, 2010 9:55 am

Joe Amatulli wrote:Happy New Year all! Well do I know how to get things started or what!
I think you’ve been answered Lvrgsp, but yes………yes…………yes………lets talk a little history. NFC Sanjo’s Sin City Slicker was bread to NFC Heidi Ho Pinehurst that produced, I believe 4 dogs with championships, three of them NFC, but the one I am going to talk about is multiple NFC Heidi’s Sin City Slicker was bread to NFC Marsha’s Southern Affair that produced the all time male championship winner and also multiple NFC Tracus and the best young dog I have ever seen Damar’s Southern Comfort that was bread to 2 time runner up national champion Ravenswood Starlite Express (my dog) that produced a litter that won over 50 championships and the all time championship winner and 6 time NFC Tulli’s Scatback (Salina). Salina was bread to runner up national champion Saddle and produced (so far) a runner up national champion Tulli’s Shelby. Shelby was bread to NFC Nuke a little over a year ago and I can tell you right now that litter will win championships. Now as far as Nuke is concerned he has dominated the futurity for that past 5 years along with at least 1 NFC. Now where did Nuke come from, well of course a NFC Ramblin Danny! Do I need to go any further?
National Champions produce National Champions, is it a guarantee, heck NO, but you have improved your odds.

Birddog no that breeding was not repeated, first I breed for myself and although I had plenty of buyers that litter almost killed my dog and she was a very, very mean mother.

Great info Joe!!! Let me add that not only did young Slick produce NC's, Strike The Gold (littermate) also produced NC's, Flash, and Magnum. Magnum has produced an Amatuer NC. (and my Rocky, out of Flash and Holly, (Bluemax Spitfire/Strike The Gold Lines) will be knockin' on the NC door this year.)

Cutter and Jax are also out of Slick lines. (NFC's)

Slick also produced Mert, Kate, Siren, Shake, and Ace. All NC's or RU's. Mert and Kate produced Rip, RU to his momma at Eureka!!

The Sanjo Slick/ Heidi Ho cross produced dogs that were NC's for 3 generations. Pretty impressive. Selective breeding of very good dogs, put in the hands of the right people greatly increases the odds of success.

Plus, this line seems to produce quite a few AA dogs.

Maybe Robbi will see this and add some more that I have missed. After all she and Keith trained/ handled most of the dogs that I have mentioned.

HAPPY NEW YEAR EVERYONE!!!

Doug

Joe Amatulli · Post by **Joe Amatulli** » Fri Jan 01, 2010 12:32 pm

Ezzy I didn’t see your post at first, the only thing I will say is ya you only needed to go to the market one time, but as I see it I am getting 3 times the thrill going to the market in that Ferrari 3 times. Like I said if your focus is just to shoot some birds the caliber of dog that I try to produce is certainly a lot more than you need, but if you get a thrill in seeing a dog tare up the country and really get excited when you go around the corner and your dog is pointed, looking like every mussel in his body is going to burst for the intensity, well than you will know what I am talking about. I guess the difference between sex and masturbating!

Post by **ezzy333** » Fri Jan 01, 2010 12:56 pm

Gee, I think that is the way my dogs hunt also. Sure is a thrill. And the guy that wants a dog to find a bird so he can shoot it and fill his limit is thrilled to see his dog fulfil that need. But I also have noticed that it is easier to get them to the field in a Taurus than a Ferrari. I think if the Ferrari was the preferred auto then we all would be driving one instead of the Taurus. Same with our dogs, if the dogs we like to see were the preferred then everyone would own one and we wouldn't be having these discussions. It still comes back to the preferred dog or auto is the one that thrills us or fulfils our needs. But that has no bearing on what thrills someone else and it sure doesn't make our dogs better than someone Else's. They still are just what we like. I do think you and I spend a lot more time looking for that perfect stud but that is probably because there are few of them compared to the good family companion that can hunt a few weekends during the year and do it close enough so they can be seen with little training. The people who developed our breeds did it to produce a dog that fit their needs and that same mentality continues to be the back bone of our sporting dogs. The common man who does not want to spend all summer training or does not want to send their dog to a professional trainer will continue to set the course for the vast majority of our dogs and those of us that think we are doing something great by dreaming up games to play and breeding dogs for that purpose will continue to be in the minority as long as hunting is a viable sport. And that dog that is bred to do that will continue to be the dog of their choice and that says it will be worth more to them than our trial bred dogs.

Ezzy

Post by **kninebirddog** » Fri Jan 01, 2010 1:37 pm

Puppy Price

Why is one puppy worth more then another...What has the breeder done to try and insure that That puppy has true potential to be a good bird dog ..Theoretically if we are putting dams and sires together that BOTH have the desired traits and have common and a cross with a good clique of lines to help bring in consistency then it should come down to The amount of training and the hands those pups get into making the difference between a trial dog and just a super hunting dog

Now as to how to get where you are hunting give me a Truck over a car

Shadow · Post by **Shadow** » Fri Jan 01, 2010 3:26 pm

since we're talking Taurus and puppy

Post by **ezzy333** » Fri Jan 01, 2010 3:28 pm

Shadow wrote:since we're talking Taurus and puppy

Not often you see a Ferrari with the trunk up, dog box in it, and a field trial bred dog laying behind it. :roll: :roll:

Ezzy

Joe Amatulli · Post by **Joe Amatulli** » Fri Jan 01, 2010 3:34 pm

Okay so let me see if I see this right you believe that your hunting dogs are equal to my field trial dogs, hence a Taurus is equal to a Ferrari……………..PROVE IT!!!!!!!!!

3Britts · Post by **3Britts** » Fri Jan 01, 2010 4:40 pm

Well Joe,

As you seem to have the money to travel around in your Ferrari trialing your dogs, I'll leave it up to you to travel in my direction during chuckar season and will put the prove it to the test. But lets at least do this during a real hunt.

Who knows, you might even enjoy some hunting for a change.

Post by **ezzy333** » Fri Jan 01, 2010 5:56 pm

Yep, anytime you want to show up.

Ezzy

jbogacki76 · Post by **jbogacki76** » Fri Jan 01, 2010 7:37 pm

For what its worth Joe's statement could be true.

A stock Ferrari Enzo/F40 runs around 0-60 in 3.5-3.8, and a stock Taurus SHO runs it in around 4.3-4.5. So, if that SHO is modified it could pull a 3.8 easy.

birddogger · Post by **birddogger** » Fri Jan 01, 2010 8:56 pm

kumate wrote:I
I told him i wanted a dog with alot of drive as i was interested in agility. He said what you need is a buddy dog, i am thinking yikes, while i do want a buddy i want a high drive athlete too, i am spending $1400 and i could buy plenty local for 200 - 500. After several phone conversations i sent my deposit for my PUP and he is about 17mths now and i couldnt be happier. I will say i was apprehensive as my first few contacts with him was not the greatest. On his website on his puppies available page he is advertising a litter from yrs ago and he wasnt the nicest when quetioned about it, my pup was from untiled parents, i got no picture of the pups he made that clear right off, he picks accordin to what you tell him and seems to sell pups for what turns into 1400 if shipped as fast as they hit the ground.

Jerry

After the first few contacts, as you described, I would have been looking elsewhere. In fact, I would have probably been done after the first contact. Ther is no doubt, he produces great dogs and are worth the price. But I simply will not do business with somebody who doesn't treat me with respect and common courtesy, and act like they are doing me a favor by selling me a dog.

I would have gone to Walnut Hill or Top Gun and gotten a puppy bred just as well, if not better, and had pleasant people to deal with. People who take great pride in what they do, without being arrogant about it.

I don't know why I felt the need to comment on this, but I did. This is in no way meant to say you should have done something different. It is just me.

Charlie

kumate · Post by **kumate** » Sat Jan 02, 2010 7:02 am

I came close to buying a pup from Brenda and am sure i would have been just as happy.. Some breeders dont sell pups to people who dont hunt test trial etc, but Brenda was going to make a exception and was great to talk with. I am really happy with my dog and money couldnt buy him he is the most intelligent dogs i have owned. It is funny what you said, because prior to sending the money i am saying to myself sheesh, this guy could care less if i buy the dog or not and acts as if am lucky that he is selling me a pup, no pictures etc. I keep him updated with pics and vid clips etc, and i have gotten to know his personality better

Jerry

Shadow · Post by **Shadow** » Sat Jan 02, 2010 7:20 am

Joe Amatulli wrote:Okay so let me see if I see this right you believe that your hunting dogs are equal to my field trial dogs, hence a Taurus is equal to a Ferrari……………..PROVE IT!!!!!!!!!

gee- did I say that- but if you'd like to swing down here I think my male can hunt pheasants as well as yours- you wouldn't happen to have a 5 month old to run with mine would you- suppose you are going to smoke me on shooting too

Shadow · Post by **Shadow** » Sat Jan 02, 2010 7:31 am

ezzy333 wrote:
Shadow wrote:since we're talking Taurus and puppy
Not often you see a Ferrari with the trunk up, dog box in it, and a field trial bred dog laying behind it. :roll: :roll:

Ezzy

chuckling- but I could get 31 mpg- sleep in it- travel and hunt 4 states- and also carry the grummen canoe on top for a bit of north country duck hunting

Ricky Ticky Shorthairs · Post by **Ricky Ticky Shorthairs** » Sat Jan 02, 2010 8:23 am

Joe Amatulli wrote:
Okay so let me see if I see this right you believe that your hunting dogs are equal to my field trial dogs, hence a Taurus is equal to a Ferrari……………..PROVE IT!!!!!!!!!

gee- did I say that- but if you'd like to swing down here I think my male can hunt pheasants as well as yours- you wouldn't happen to have a 5 month old to run with mine would you- suppose you are going to smoke me on shooting too

Yep, anytime you want to show up.

Ezzy

Well Joe,

As you seem to have the money to travel around in your Ferrari trialing your dogs, I'll leave it up to you to travel in my direction during chuckar season and will put the prove it to the test. But lets at least do this during a real hunt. Who knows, you might even enjoy some hunting for a change.

Wow Joe~You've got invites to hunt all over the country!!!

If you go, swing by Iowa and pick me up. I don't think we can take the Ferrari though, we won't all fit. We can take my new Dodge.

Seriously though, I would love to hunt behind your dogs, as well as those of any who have invited you to go huntin'.

I think that we can all agree that we have dogs that excell in what we use them for, no matter what we paid for them, or we wouldn't have them. Let's not let this turn into a pissin' match. We've got some good info from this thread.

Let's keep it goin'!

I would enjoy hunting behind any of you guy's dogs.

Doug