puppy price

[gravedigger]

i've been away from gundogs for awhile.But I got a shock when I seen how much well bred puppies were going for!I know you get what you pay for,but there are no gaurantees that because a pup comes from good working parents that it will also work well.Any thoughts on this?-Shawn

[vzkennels]

Gd if you been away for awhile & shocked at the prices maybe you should also check on the cost of dog food,stud fees,shipping,vet care,training,etc.Talk about sticker shock!!

[ezzy333]

Gd if you been away for awhile & shocked at the prices maybe you should also check on the cost of dog food,stud fees,shipping,vet care,training,etc.Talk about sticker shock!!

Very very true.

Ezzy

[volraider]

Study pedigrees and you can get a well bred pup for less money. No reason to spend a fortune.

[Dave Quindt]

Open the classifieds from any metro newspaper and see what the backyard-bred sporting dogs are going for. "Good hunter bred to good hunter, with 11 FCs in the pedigree" can get $400+ easy. That's without any health clearances, and often with a breeder with no little meaningful experience in the breed. If that sets the low side of the pricing spectrum, where do quality pups with clearances bred by experienced folks end up getting priced at?

but there are no gaurantees that because a pup comes from good working parents that it will also work well

Not sure what breed(s) you are looking at, but when dealing with quality breedings of the major established breeds, where you have 10+generations of proven field dogs behind a particular litter, the odds of getting a dog that does not have the genetic potential of becoming a serviceable hunting dog (at minimum) is extremely low.

If you are looking at some of the more obscure sporting dog breeds, that's a whole different discussion about pricing.

JMO,
Dave

[topher40]

Gd if you been away for awhile & shocked at the prices maybe you should also check on the cost of dog food,stud fees,shipping,vet care,training,etc.Talk about sticker shock!!

Boy when you put it that way I cant figure out how people sell dogs so cheap!

[Shadow]

gravedigger- give us the type dog, age, what type background in the breeding, and what is the price that shocks you

don't know where you get the idea of a well bred pup pretty much not doing what it's bred to do

[topher40]

I know what he means. Just because I breed an AA or HB litter doesnt mean I am getting pups that can do that. You NEVER know what your getting when you buy a puppy. If you could figure out how to guarantee performance you would be a rich man, obviously I am still trying to figure that out.

[ElhewPointer]

Its a good thing you just started looking because they've actually gone down id say in the last year or so. I have friends that have very well bred dogs and are having a tough time getting enough just to break even.

[gravedigger]

I was looking at DD's.Couldn't find anything under 800 dollars,then you add shipping 288 dollars.i'm not a wealthy person and that seems like an awful lot of money.You look in the paper and these individuals who think they have something special and really it's mediocre at best and they are asking 500 for GSP's on average.what I would call pet Quality Weimies people are asking 500.So if these prices indicate run of the mill dogs,to get a well bred dog to better your chances of a good gundog.The good ones are out of my price range.Just was a little shocked.As my wife says get with the times or get left behind.LOL.-Shawn

[Dave Quindt]

You can get a very nice GSP or GWP in the $450-$650 range. Any of the niche continental stuff (DD, DK, Pudelpointers, Munsterlanders, Braques, etc) are often going to have some unusually high prices; sometimes justified, sometimes not.

If you are set on spending a certain amount, and that's on the low end of what quality sporting dog pups are costing, then you are going to have to accept some limitations and be flexible.

JMO,
Dave

[briarpatch]

Many of the local fellas in my area are of the same thoughts and buy what you would call backyard breeder dogs with less than desireable pedigrees behind the dogs, and many of their dogs hunt so they ask why would you spend that kinda money on a dog, simply the answer is ...
It lessons the chances of getting a dud sure duds do come from good breedings but the likelyhood of a dud coming from a quality breeding is much less of a gamble on your money so the more you pay for the original cost of the pup with the better pedigree the more likely you are to have a great dog..
is there still a chance of getting a dud of course there is, but it is much less of a chance than if the pup came from a background you know nothing of what the parents grandparents ect. were like ..
with a good pedigree behind them you can see the parents/grandparents were tested in different hunting areas and what areas they had success in, although many are quick to point out a pedigree is just a piece of paper and it is.. If the father grandsire ect. came from VC bloodline or produced a lot of hunt tested dogs that did well, then more than likely this breeding will perform well as well, and usually the higher priced dogs will have either health quarantees or health tested parents as well or both, when the 150- 400 dollar dog in the local paper will generally not have any health clearance on the parents or guarantees,

I figure it this way if I am going to gamble thousands of dollars on training,feeding vet bills, housing, etc. over the next few years I want the best possible pup I can get to start with, and to lesson my chances of getting a dud spending that little extra in the begining is just a drop in the bucket compaired to what I will spend on the dog in the future..

that bargain in the paper may turn into a real expensive headache quick if it developes some genetic health problem down the road.;

Not to mention I have seen their dogs hunt once in a blue moon do people who bargan shop for hunting dogs get a truly good dog, while many from proven parents end up with good dogs..


So In a Nutshell I like lessoning the odds of getting a dud..So I am more than willing to spend a few extra bucks in the begining to purchase the pup and have it shipped in, In hopes it will one day be a great dog and hopefully no health problems, and if a health problem should occur the breeeder would stand behind what they bred..

But thats just me I am from a gambling area, anything to put the odds in your favor when your gambling is good, a little more up front money may save you thousands later in vet bills or save you thousands of headaches later when you find out your bargain puppy is gunshy or wont back another dog or whatever the case may be ...

Just my thoughts on it

[gravedigger]

I understand things go up.i also know if you want quality you half to pay for it.I'm just a person from the hills and the last dog I bought,i paid 350 for a lab female that the sire was an FC/AFC and the female was an all age dog.Everyone had good comments and I appreciate the chat.-Shawn

[Greg Jennings]

I was looking at DD's.

Well, there you go. $800 seems cheap for what I've seen.

If you want the American version, you won't have to pay that much. I rather think that it is currentl a buyer's market.

[mudhunter]

In my area, southeast PA its cheaper to get a well bred bird dog than to get a mutt with a fancy name. Its all about supply and demand (mostly demand). Too many people, bird dog people included, think they can make money breeding these dogs. IMHO the only time to breed two dogs is if you honestly think the results of what you are breeding is better than any other puppy you could get in your area.

[vzkennels]

Mudhunter the KEY WORDS are Think They Can Make Money!! What Dave says I almost stated just a little differently but I didn't submit it because I didn't want to offend those that breed those so called Special or Rare Breeds !! JMO

[Grange]

Even with well bred puppies there can be huge differences in prices. I think part has to do with location and part has to do with the breeder. Well known breeders seem to be a ble to ask for a higher price for a puppy than a lesser known breeder. When I was looking for my english setter puppy I saw a wide array of prices for well bred pups. I can remember two litters with extremely similar pedigrees, but the price difference between the two was drastic (almost double).

[JKP]

This topic just keeps coming up...amazes me. You either trust the person you buy from or you don't. The money is secondary. We all have our limits but there are plenty of good dogs to be had in different price ranges. Most of what a dog becomes is the buyers responsibility...it can't become what it "don't have"....so it pays to go to those that have shown that they have judgment, the integrity and the "goods" over time.
If there is a premium involved, its usually worth it....and if best efforts are made and the dog's a dud (doubtful!!), good breeders make it right.

I pay a few hundred more for that...and have never felt the money was poorly spent.

[Shadow]

I was looking at DD's.Couldn't find anything under 800 dollars,then you add shipping 288 dollars.i'm not a wealthy person and that seems like an awful lot of money.You look in the paper and these individuals who think they have something special and really it's mediocre at best and they are asking 500 for GSP's on average.what I would call pet Quality Weimies people are asking 500.So if these prices indicate run of the mill dogs,to get a well bred dog to better your chances of a good gundog.The good ones are out of my price range.Just was a little shocked.As my wife says get with the times or get left behind.LOL.-Shawn

you want a specialty dog you pay the price and still gamble that you can make it what you consider a good gun dog

to bad you don't want just a real good bred all around bird dog-

[RayGubernat]

It is really simple actually.

If you want a well bred pointer or setter you need to spend about $3-500. If you want a well bred Brit or GSP, you need to spend about $100 bucks more than that. If you want the very top breeding in any of those breeds, expect to pay about double those prices for a pup.

If you want some of the less popular gun dog breeds, you pay what the breeder asks...or you move along.

If you buy a well bred pup from a respected breeder of any of the big four above, you will, almost certainly, get a pup that will hunt its heart out for you and be just about all you could ask for in a bird dog.

If you buy a pup from some of the less well known breeds, you had better look closely at the type of dog the breeder produces and if at all possible, watch the parents hunt...regardless of what you pay.

Let's just say there are reasons why the big four pointing dogs are indeed the big four.

RayG

[mountaindogs]

Completely excluding food and all else. Just getting ready for a litter now and here's the cost on health testing:

OFA complete $215
CERF exam $45
CERF to OFA fee $15
Cardiac Exam
at a clinic $40
Cardiac to OFA fee $15
Cone Degeneration $160
exam & Blood Draw fee
$15
Brucellosis $72
$577 on health testing

Stud fee - you can put in your own but for the dogs I'd look at it's $600 - $1000

Then you have the thousands spent on trailing, tests, showing etc. this is imposible to list but more than you can imagine. If testing in the german system there are minimum testing requirements and I'm sure they'd be several hundred

The the litter itself IF all goes well (based on my last litter of 7:

you have tail dock & dew claw which was $96 for 7 puppies for me 3 years ago.

Puppy vaccs about $65 for the whole litter for first vaccination

Personally I like to do two sets.

Then 3 early dewormings about $25 total

Interceptor $54.99 for first month (12 tabs, you can only buy in 6 or 12)

Frontline $156.99 for first month (I actually spend about 80 as I dose it out from 6 large dog packs, per my vet)

at least 2 x $35 bag of food $42.99 x 2 = 85.98

$548.96 minimum if it goes well
toys, birds, collars, etc. all more much more

If you have to have a c-section - $500 - $1500 more (been there.)

Then you need to be ready to keep puppies longer if need be so you'l have more vaccinations more food, more treats, more birds... etc...

and so on it adds up! And the time it takes to really raise a litter and give them the care they need is immense. Somebody is taking off work or staying home to do it.

But on the plus side - there's puppy breath and joy

[oakcreek]

I know everyone has to have a price set when looking at dogs. However, the cost of the puppy is the least of the amount of money you will put in the dog. Once you figure in your gas, time, birds, starter pistols, bird releases, and so on.... the extra upfront cost doesn't seem like that much if it increases your chances at receiving a pup with the ability you are looking for. If you raise your pups correctly and breed to the right dogs usually you have $300 invested in each pup before they leave the kennel, this doesn't include the costs of what you have put into the female.

[AZ Brittany Guy]

There are a few old sayings that I think are true.

"The cost of a pup is the cheapest part of owning one"

"It costs the same to feed a good one as it does an average one".

A several hundred dollar difference is nothing when you spread it out over 10 or 15 years.

A good pedigree does not guarantee you will have a great dog, it just improves your odds. A lot depends on how good of an owner / trainer you are. A great prospect pup can be ruined in an afternoon of poor training.

[3Britts]

There are a few old sayings that I think are true.

"The cost of a pup is the cheapest part of owning one"

"It costs the same to feed a good one as it does an average one".

A several hundred dollar difference is nothing when you spread it out over 10 or 15 years.

A good pedigree does not guarantee you will have a great dog, it just improves your odds. A lot depends on how good of an owner / trainer you are. A great prospect pup can be ruined in an afternoon of poor training.

I'll second that...

The one thing that I have noticed is that top breeders never have to lower the price that are asking for a pup. Their litters sell at the price they ask. What is the reason for this, a good reputation sells and a poor reputation doesn't.

[bwjohn]

check out kennel sell out, under the buy sell trade section. Don't know anything about the dogs but might work for you,

brandon

[Middlecreek]

Here are my thoughts on the subject, nothing more, nothing less. Mainly just a bunch of random thoughts as I think about the subject a little more. I can honestly see both sides of the discussion, it just depends on what you want.

A well bred dog is worth much more than the sum of its parts. It's like asking why a house costs $350,000.00 when a 2x4 only costs $1.97? Why do the Yankees spend millions of dollars on a 19 year old draft pick that has never even played in a major leauge game when everybody knows little Bobby down the street can strike out anyone in the neighborhood? The same line of thought applies to a well bred dog. It would be interesting to take three or four generations of a really well bred dog and see how much was spent on those dogs not to mention the amount spent on the ones that were not NFC's or even FC's to find and breed those few good ones. Lets take a field bred litter for example(FC, NFC, etc.)
Stud (assuming a 7 year old dog)
Price as puppy = 1000
7 years of food @ $40 per month = 3360
7 years vet @ $500 per year = 3500
Training/Trialing/entry fees = 24,000(8 mos. a year for six years @ $500/month)
TOTAL = $31,860.00
Not to mention Kennel facilities, horses, horse tack, birds, trailers, fuel, breeding costs, utilities etc. and alot more things not mentioned.

Then if you have the same into the Dam that's another 30 some thoousand then you add in another conservative 10k(over 7 years) for all the "little things" that just seem to add up, you have a grand total of over $70,000.00.

So.... lets say you are able to get six litters out of them in their lifetime: $70,000 divided by 6 litters = 11,666 per litter
11,666 per litter divided by a high 8 puppy average = $1458 per puppy!!

$800 seems extremely cheap now. Think how much time, effort, and money was spent on the preceeding three or four generations it took to produce that litter, or the amount spent on the ones that didn't make the cut, the numbers get real big, real fast!!!!!! The math may be a little off, but still fairly accurate and probably a little on the low side.

It just simply depends on what you want. Some of us that eat, sleep, and breath birddogs will spare no expense when it comes to our dogs yet will faint at the price of pair of shoes and the opposite may hold true for someone else. I would fault no one either way. To each his own .... nuff said

[ezzy333]

Just a point that should enter into it is figuring all of the expenses that way sounds like you are wanting someone to pay for your hobby. If a pup costs 1500 to produce then maybe we need to change something. In my mind it would be completely irresponsible for a young family to spend that much on a dog when there are so many other more important places to spend it.

Maybe we need to just price a pup at the real cost and not include the feed or the cost of the games we play since we have to feed our dog anyway and it's our hobby to travel the country and/or pay for trainers, entry fees, and such. I can raise a litter for a couple of hundred dollars and pay for a stud fee for 2 or 3 hundred and sell the 8 pups for 100 each and be money ahead in real costs. But then I would be considered a backyard breeder(which I am) that doesn't really know enough to breed good dogs. And if I can afford it(which I can't) and enjoy trials and showing(which I do) those costs would be mine since they are paying for my hobbies.

Don't know but I do think we are pricing our puppies way too high for the average young family. And the fact, that is always thrown out, is that the cost of the puppy is the cheapest part just doesn't in anyway make it more affordable.

Just a thought

Ezzy

[AZ Brittany Guy]

Here are my thoughts on the subject, nothing more, nothing less. Mainly just a bunch of random thoughts as I think about the subject a little more. I can honestly see both sides of the discussion, it just depends on what you want.

A well bred dog is worth much more than the sum of its parts. It's like asking why a house costs $350,000.00 when a 2x4 only costs $1.97? Why do the Yankees spend millions of dollars on a 19 year old draft pick that has never even played in a major leauge game when everybody knows little Bobby down the street can strike out anyone in the neighborhood? The same line of thought applies to a well bred dog. It would be interesting to take three or four generations of a really well bred dog and see how much was spent on those dogs not to mention the amount spent on the ones that were not NFC's or even FC's to find and breed those few good ones. Lets take a field bred litter for example(FC, NFC, etc.)
Stud (assuming a 7 year old dog)
Price as puppy = 1000
7 years of food @ $40 per month = 3360
7 years vet @ $500 per year = 3500
Training/Trialing/entry fees = 24,000(8 mos. a year for six years @ $500/month)
TOTAL = $31,860.00
Not to mention Kennel facilities, horses, horse tack, birds, trailers, fuel, breeding costs, utilities etc. and alot more things not mentioned.

Then if you have the same into the Dam that's another 30 some thoousand then you add in another conservative 10k(over 7 years) for all the "little things" that just seem to add up, you have a grand total of over $70,000.00.

So.... lets say you are able to get six litters out of them in their lifetime: $70,000 divided by 6 litters = 11,666 per litter
11,666 per litter divided by a high 8 puppy average = $1458 per puppy!!

$800 seems extremely cheap now. Think how much time, effort, and money was spent on the preceeding three or four generations it took to produce that litter, or the amount spent on the ones that didn't make the cut, the numbers get real big, real fast!!!!!! The math may be a little off, but still fairly accurate and probably a little on the low side.

It just simply depends on what you want. Some of us that eat, sleep, and breath birddogs will spare no expense when it comes to our dogs yet will faint at the price of pair of shoes and the opposite may hold true for someone else. I would fault no one either way. To each his own .... nuff said

Now I'm depressed I can never tell my wife about this post

[jakemaster]

Don't know but I do think we are pricing our puppies way too high for the average young family. And the fact, that is always thrown out, is that the cost of the puppy is the cheapest part just doesn't in anyway make it more affordable.

Just a thought

Ezzy

Dont think the average young couple should be looking at a high end breeding. Average breeding can produce a pup in $ 500 range or less. If someone breeds 1 or 2 litters a year and use their own studs and no complications occur pups are out there for that cost. But when you use high end females to high end studs the costs go up. Then you have the frozen stuff and the extra cost that go along with it. We currently have litters priced in 500 to 2000 range something for all. I have seen plenty of nice lower priced pups available on the sale page from many breeders, but knowing what it takes to breed on a consistent basis understand why some may ask for a higher price for some of their litters. Same concept as sports. Average family wants to go to football game should they expect to be able to sit front row 50 yd line same kind of seat as they use in the back row of upper deck.

[ElhewPointer]

Just a point that should enter into it is figuring all of the expenses that way sounds like you are wanting someone to pay for your hobby.

Don't know but I do think we are pricing our puppies way too high for the average young family. And the fact, that is always thrown out, is that the cost of the puppy is the cheapest part just doesn't in anyway make it more affordable.

Just a thought

Ezzy

Maybe that "avg family" shouldn't be getting a dog then. Go to the pound and pick one up. If little Suzy wants a pony, you don't go get her a son of Secratariat do ya? The cost of the game and that dog's successes should be put into those pups. Thats what you are paying for, quality.

Vagas

[lvrgsp]

You know I was going to stay away from this topic, but it kinda fits right into what is being discussed here......I have a litter posting for a spring breeding, and I have a price posted on there for $350 either sex you pay freight and crate.
Link Here
http://www.gundogforum.com/forum/viewto ... 58&t=19716

You would not believe the crap emails and pm's I have gotten over the months telling me what a freaking moron I am for underpricing my pups on a well bred litter (that was there words not mine)....I am in no way shape or form going to tell someone there pups are to cheap, or should have asked for more...heck thats there business not mine. Do I trial my dogs? Yes local walking trials, Do I hunt them? Yes in various states, Do I spend alot of time training? Yes I do,
Woopdeee freakin doooo...who the heck cares? Just urks me to no end I keep hearing hey man you know how much money your losing on that litter idiot....
You know what my answer to them is? Ok buddy you come get a pup pay the $ for gas and a motel to stay for a few days and lets go spend a day hunting and see Sire and Dam hunt and then ask yourself is it a pup I want? No yet we want to sit on our laurels and b!tch about puppy pricing when we should be spending the "bleep" money to go see some dogs in action, in whatever venue pleases you......Sorry it just burns my Azz...

I'll step off my soapbox now.
JMO,
Chip


Let me add something else here, it really P!ssed em off when I said I would give a portion of the puppy fee back to the local QU, QF or PF chapters....
or one of their choice
Their response was " Your gonna what?"

[Shadow]

well said- when I bred I said $300.00

just jerks-
established recognized well known breeders pretty much stick to a price they know their's are worth and they have no reason to think their's won't sell

[topher40]

I really dont see where some people are coming up with these cost for raising a litter! :roll: I agree that the initial investment in the dog is the smallest financial burden that will be incurred over the dogs life. Problem is some of these breakdowns are sky high, do some vetting yourself and save a buck. Even if I keep all the pups for 6 months I might have 100 bucks in med's and feed and birds. The largest up front cost is the feed, everything is just nickel and dime stuff. All of the testing and such is one reason that I raise pointers! Us pointer folks dont worry about testing hips, eyes, thyroid, toenails, and coat texture :roll: . I dont even count the cost's of trialing and travel, thats something I would do if I wasnt breeding dogs.

Chip-
If folks are telling you your dogs are to cheap then sell them to those folks for 700. That should make them feel better about getting a quality pup.

[lvrgsp]

Chip-
If folks are telling you your dogs are to cheap then sell them to those folks for 700. That should make them feel better about getting a quality pup.

Yea maybe I will...
You know let me add this here to I am in no way saying folks should'nt ask $800-$1000 for there pups, thats your deal man do what you want, and when you have 8-10 pups at 800-1000 a piece, just don't sit back and tell me Oh I'm not making any money on the litter.....BULL....oh the stud fee this oh the vet bills that....yadda yadda yadda....make all the money you want if thats your objective, but don't expect me to believe some folks are'nt making money....theres exceptions to every litter I know.....

Again JMO,
Chip

[birddogger]

You know I was going to stay away from this topic, but it kinda fits right into what is being discussed here......I have a litter posting for a spring breeding, and I have a price posted on there for $350 either sex you pay freight and crate.
Link Here
http://www.gundogforum.com/forum/viewto ... 58&t=19716

You would not believe the crap emails and pm's I have gotten over the months telling me what a freaking moron I am for underpricing my pups on a well bred litter (that was there words not mine)....I am in no way shape or form going to tell someone there pups are to cheap, or should have asked for more...heck thats there business not mine. Do I trial my dogs? Yes local walking trials, Do I hunt them? Yes in various states, Do I spend alot of time training? Yes I do,
Woopdeee freakin doooo...who the heck cares? Just urks me to no end I keep hearing hey man you know how much money your losing on that litter idiot....
You know what my answer to them is? Ok buddy you come get a pup pay the $ for gas and a motel to stay for a few days and lets go spend a day hunting and see Sire and Dam hunt and then ask yourself is it a pup I want? No yet we want to sit on our laurels and b!tch about puppy pricing when we should be spending the "bleep" money to go see some dogs in action, in whatever venue pleases you......Sorry it just burns my Azz...

I'll step off my soapbox now.
JMO,
Chip


Let me add something else here, it really P!ssed em off when I said I would give a portion of the puppy fee back to the local QU, QF or PF chapters....
or one of their choice
Their response was " Your gonna what?"

I am sure glad you are not listening to those jerks!!

Charlie

[lvrgsp]

[quote="birddogger
I am sure glad you are not listening to those jerks!!

Charlie[/quote]

Did'nt forget about ya Charlie....

[Joe Amatulli]

You know what if you think your pups are only worth $300.00 well maybe there is a reason! I will admit I get top dollar for mine and there is a reason for that also. First of all 70 to 80% of what the dog becomes is what you put into it, now think of it this way you put those 10’s of thousands of dollars into the pup and he washes out, well if you want to put that amount of money into a back yard bread dog, I have a bridge I need to sell. Just think about it a wile if you are going to spend that amount of money shouldn’t you start with the best pup that you can get? Also keep in mind national champions produce national champions, ya there are exceptions to every rule, but just look at pedigrees of national champions, field champions and any other competitive dog and you will find CHAMPIONS in the pedigree. Now if all you are looking for is a dog to shoot some birds over, that $300.00 pup may do you just fine, but if you are looking for that NFC you better use your brain.

I see some big dollars spent on top pointer derbies well that makes a lot of scents just because of the number of pups and the amount of money that you may need to go through to get one that may not be of that caliber, again think of the amount you spend and the amount of time you put into a pup the first to two years.

Anyone that has won that national will tell you the same thing, it is a long and expensive road and that is what you are paying for when you buy a well bread pup! I think you can tell who has been down that road and who has not just by what they post!

[GUNSMOKE]

I kinda agree with what Joe is saying to a point, but in my mind you up your odds tremendously if you don't buy a puppy. Puppies are all a crap shoot no matter what you pay for them or who you get them from!!!!!!!!!!! Look at a Derby aged dog and you will at least get to see a bit more of what the end result might be. I know that doesn't work for alot of people because they think you have to bond with them as a puppy and all other kinds of things. A dog will bond with whoever feeds it and treats it with respect. Puppies are puppies and that's all they are until they prove otherwise.

[lvrgsp]

Ok I'll bite here Joe.....how many National Champion shorthairs have produced National Champion offspring at Eureka, Booneville, and the NGPDA in the last 10 years? Not futurity winners, NC's. Slick, Sunny, Ben, Nuke Surely getting the dogs into the appropriate hands and the right trainers has something to do with that, my guess is they were owned and or handled by the same owners/trainers as well, todays pros very rarely go outside there line of dogs, they should have a higher percentage of winners. I have a g-son of Saddle and a g-son of Hoosier Buddy, he's a direct son of Cecil a very very good producer, my male has some wins and placements all be it in walking stakes against pointers and setters.....should I ask for more just because of that? Breed to a NC because you like what you see, what he's produced....That's not say I do not appreciate the sacrifices made by those who do that, the fact remains alot of folks are breeding just for that NC title and you know that without ever seeing the "bleep" dog.....

Lesters Snowatch, I'll use as an example here......stud fee $1000 right now. Can anyone tell me what his stud fee was before he won the NC?
Did you breed to Snowatch for what you saw in him as a bird dog and for what he produced in his pups before he won the NC....( IMO thats the deciding factor ), or did you breed to him just because of the NC and you've never seen the dog?.....thats the same across the board.

Just a thought,
Chip

[zzweims]

Chip:

I too have a litter of pups in the dogs for sale section. Weims at $1000 a pop. The litter is nearly sold out. And yes, I WILL make a profit on this litter. I've lost money on other litters, but that's just breeding for you. What I don't understand is the general attitude that it is wrong for a breeder to make a profit. Why not recoup my costs and then some? The quality of my pups is the same whether I make money or not. Ditto for yours. And no matter what you or I charge, SOMEBODY is going to complain that it is too little or too much. Screw 'em. These are your puppies and you can charge whatever you like. There will always be naysayers out there. Don't let them get you down, and don't let them have one of your very nice puppies ---at any cost.

Aline
http://zzfarms.com

[ezzy333]

You know what if you think your pups are only worth $300.00 well maybe there is a reason! I will admit I get top dollar for mine and there is a reason for that also. First of all 70 to 80% of what the dog becomes is what you put into it, now think of it this way you put those 10’s of thousands of dollars into the pup and he washes out, well if you want to put that amount of money into a back yard bread dog, I have a bridge I need to sell. Just think about it a wile if you are going to spend that amount of money shouldn’t you start with the best pup that you can get? Also keep in mind national champions produce national champions, ya there are exceptions to every rule, but just look at pedigrees of national champions, field champions and any other competitive dog and you will find CHAMPIONS in the pedigree. Now if all you are looking for is a dog to shoot some birds over, that $300.00 pup may do you just fine, but if you are looking for that NFC you better use your brain.

I see some big dollars spent on top pointer derbies well that makes a lot of scents just because of the number of pups and the amount of money that you may need to go through to get one that may not be of that caliber, again think of the amount you spend and the amount of time you put into a pup the first to two years.

Anyone that has won that national will tell you the same thing, it is a long and expensive road and that is what you are paying for when you buy a well bread pup! I think you can tell who has been down that road and who has not just by what they post!

Joe,

I understand where you are coming from but you are talking a field trial champion producing field trial dogs. I think the people that are posting about the price are talking hunting dogs that may or may not be trialed. You judge the quality of a dog by how much it wins and I judge a dog on what kind of hunting dog and companion it will be. The dogs are the same breed but each owner judges their dogs by the standards of what they want from their dog. That doesn't make one dog better than the other but is simply two dogs from the same breed that excel in different areas. My concern is that the heart of our sporting dog interest is with the hunters and the future is with the hunters kids. Some of those will hunt while some will maybe get into trialing and showing or both. But if we eliminate the young family from having a dog in their lives their kids will never know the joy of living with a dog or the joy of going to the field, trial, show, or obedience ring with a dog of their own.

I have some dogs out of the best FC breeding in the country and I get the same criticism from people for selling pups too cheap but my pay is seeing the smile on a kids face when they take that puppy home and when they come back when they need help training or need another pup. That's the real pay I get and if that pup that goes home with them is as good as it should be they will be back and they will be the next generation of outdoor sportsmen. That's our future.

Ezzy

[Middlecreek]

All good points.... If someone is expecting to be paid for their hobby that would make it a business not a hobby. I hear people talk all the time about the "dog business". If there is such a thing as "dog business" as far as breeding goes maybe the government neeeds to step in and have a bailout! LOL. "Business" in my mind implies some sort of profit or atleast the pursuit of profit. No matter how cheap or expensive someone sells puppies for I would guess it rarely even pays for itself when you consider all of the costs minor and major. Does it pay for itself in the enjoyment and happines it gives the owners?.... you bet it does, ten fold! There are extremes on both sides of the spectrums from the guy down the street that happens to have a male and female of the same breed to someone like Wehle who bred more pointers than anyone will ever know. It's not my place to judge how much someone should ask for puppies, and I never will, but most times its relative to the type of performance one might expect from the pup. I just thank my lucky stars their are people out there that don't think of it as a business so we can all enjoy great dogs no matter what game you play. It's all relative, if you want to win the indy 500 you should expect to pay more than the cost of a ford taurus, but on the other hand if you just want to get from home to the grocery store a taurus will do just fine. It just depends on where your priorities are and how serious you want to get. There are plenty of $50,000+ dollar cars and trucks in the grocery store parking lot???? -

Just observations

[lvrgsp]

Chip:

I too have a litter of pups in the dogs for sale section. Weims at $1000 a pop. The litter is nearly sold out. And yes, I WILL make a profit on this litter. I've lost money on other litters, but that's just breeding for you. What I don't understand is the general attitude that it is wrong for a breeder to make a profit. Why not recoup my costs and then some? The quality of my pups is the same whether I make money or not. Ditto for yours. And no matter what you or I charge, SOMEBODY is going to complain that it is too little or too much. Screw 'em. These are your puppies and you can charge whatever you like. There will always be naysayers out there. Don't let them get you down, and don't let them have one of your very nice puppies ---at any cost.

Aline
http://zzfarms.com

I agree 100% Aline and heck I have paid 800 and 1000 for a pup, and I never said don't make a profit, but you know as well as I there are those out there who are saying yep I grossed 5000 on a litter of pups, but man my trainer is going to winter camp and I just got a horse and I had to pay the show handler, thats the choice you made and I have no problem with it....I didnt send you an email saying your charging to much did I? Nor would I, I didnt send you an email saying I was lowballing the litter and making some of us look bad did I? No I did not
Well I did, I got all those emails....thats what torqued me off....make all the money you want I said that before.......and if I like a breeding I'll pay 1000 for a pup.

JMO,
Chip

[vzkennels]

I think what anybody sells pups for is their business.I have sold pups from $300 to $650 & made some money on some litters & lost on others.I will say this though that over all I have spent more then I have ever made.If I did this to make money or make a living I would have went broke.I do it because I love the dogs,the pups,etc I guess you could say it's more of a hobby to me then anything else but a serious hobby & I want tp produce the BEST Dogs I can & sell them at a FAIR price to anyone that is happy with what they buy from me,hunters,trialers,either one.I always tell people if you are buying pups or dogs to breed & make money or think your going to get rich you need to look into something else because the odds are against you.

[Joe Amatulli]

I don’t care how much you sell your pups for, all I will say is that no one is making any money selling pups except for maybe puppy mills. It may cost you less than the selling price of the litter, but all in all the cost of that breeding is more than what you sold those pups for.
Ezzy in some respects you are right, all I will say is if all you need is Taurus, but buy a Ferrari than don’t complain about the difference in cost and don’t expect the say performance from the Taurus as you would get from the Ferrari. Keep in mind that although I don’t hunt as much as I used to, my dogs hunt, they are good companions, good pets and all the other things that a good hunting dogs should be, they just do a lot more and if you think a NFC is equal to a hunting dog, I still have that bridge I need to sell!

[D2shorthairs]

Let me also bring up a different perspective as a breeder. My dogs are well bred, they are outstanding individuals and more importantly I know they will produce great dispositioned pups with strong natural instincts that will become an exceptional hunting dogs if treated properly. I try to sell pups for what I feel is fair for that, usually $500. I am concerned about where they go and how they are treated and over the years the problems I've had in this area were if I lowered the price or if I sold for less to a bargain hunter. People, for the most part, who pay a little more for a pup seem to try harder with the pup, listen to my suggestions for the pup better and generally just seem more serious about their pup.

[Greg Jennings]

Also keep in mind national champions produce national champions, ya there are exceptions to every rule, but just look at pedigrees of national champions, field champions and any other competitive dog and you will find CHAMPIONS in the pedigree.

While I agree with some of what is behind this, I think it's rather obvious that it's not the "NC" or "NFC" in front of the name that passes on the genetics. I think it's also rather obvious that a lot more than genetics goes into making a champion.

On the other side of the discussion, I think we all know that there are champions that prove to not reproduce themselves. We all know of top notch females that couldn't have a normal litter. I personally believe a lot of that is how hard they've been trained/trialed rather than being genetic.

Bottom line: Sure, I want to increase my odds of getting the makings of a good dog. OTOH, I understand that it's *still* a crap shoot.

[Gordon Guy]

I'm a breeder of Gordon Setters and early on I thought that puppy prices were too high (I wanted them in the hands of the average guy) so I advertized a litter starting at $300.00 or $350.00 (Don't exactly recall). I didn't get any buyers. I wasn't going any lower so I started raising the price $50.00 every so often. I sold one at $450.00 and the rest for $550.00. I don't understand it! People are funny!

I also believe that the more a person pays for something the more that the item (In this case a Puppy) will be cared for. And as a breeder I want my pups taken "good" care of.

Tom

[vzkennels]

Gordon Guy I agree if you don't ask enough alot of people see them as inferior for some odd reason,same as if you start lowering your prices after the initial asking price they think something is wrong with them.That's why I start at a fair price & stay on that price.If I use my own stud & female then the price is a little less then if I'm paying a $500 to $800 stud fee plus shipping to & from him.If you have complications,ceaserian,etc,well it can get really expensive quick!!

[AZ Brittany Guy]

You know what sets the pricing?? Supply and demand, yes the old Capitalistic society we live in. A Hobby breeder should not have to feel guilty or apologize for the price of their pups. He should not have to justify his price any more than BMW has to put up with being compared to KIA pricing. It is what it is, take it or leave it. He will know if his pricing is too high, he won't be able to sell them. When I was young and just starting a family I priced a family dog just like I priced a TV, Washer & Dryer or any other family expenditure and I bought what I could afford.... As I got older and a little more financially secure, I upgraded what I purchased. Prices also vary depending what part of the country you live in.