Bird scent in snow?

[bobinpa]

Hi guys. I am new here. I have been looking and reading for a while and have gotten some good info from you, so I thought I would join. Since i am a new hunting dog owner the info has helped, thanks.

Now for the questions. Do ruffed grouse have a different scent than other game birds? Are they harder for a dog to scent? Is the scent even more difficult for a dog to pick up in the snow?

Thank you in advance,
Bob

[ezzy333]

Every bird has a different scent. And I have never seen any evidence that snow made it more difficult. If anything it probably helps.

Ezzy

[Shadow]

hi- what kind of dog do you have- picture would be nice- actually- I think many can find and point more in snow- could be something to the effect the snow kind of has something to do with all ground scent-

[bobinpa]

My dog, Lady, is an English Setter. I bought her from a local guy who had bred her mother. Her parents have pedigrees but I am not too concerned with that. At the time all I knew was that i wanted a grouse dog. There was always a family pet when I was growing up and I had a house dog myself prior to this but she went with the ex wife, so after 5 years of no dog, I got lady. I have an older friend that used to raise and train setters and has a good local reputation for the dogs he had trained. He told me when I bought her that all dogs are a chance..... you can spend 2000.00 for a pedigree dog and get a dud or you may spend 200.00 and get a champ, or vice versa. Lady turned 1 year old on 12/16/09. I have owned her since she was 11 weeks old. We started right away with some obedience and she did well. According to my buddy she has been ahead of the curve all along. The progression has been nothing but obedience until about 4 months, then quartering work in the yard, then intro to a wing on a string, then whoa with a wing on a string, then pigeons, then the gun with the pigeons at about 5 1/2 months. Then lots and lots and lots and lots of pigeon work. Planting them, flushing them, shooting and retrieving them. All this time I worked with the dog everyday, sometimes only for 15 minutes in the yard but a lot of time has been spent on the neighboring farm. It has been paying off......she does great and she has been a joy. It's rewarding to see her mature and start to show some confidence in what she is doing. At 10 months we bought and planted some Chukars and Pheasants. It was her first "hunt" and it went good. She was a little crazy at first, ranging too far and hunting for herself but once we shot a couple of birds and she put it all together it was great. We did this for her 5 times over 6 weeks just for the bird work and I think it was good for her. We did it on 3 different farms so it wasn't too familiar for her. NOW...... Why isn't she pointing Grouse in the snow? The first time I took her out she pointed one grouse but when it flushed I couldn't see it to shoot it. There has been snow on the ground here since we started. She is hunting fine, ranging ok (20-30 yards), but not picking up any scent since the first one. She is hunting good cover, working it on her own but not getting "birdy" or showing any signs of "birdy" until the bird flushes. Most of the birds are flushing wild when she gets close to them and that leaves me too far away to kill them. I am not blood thirsty for a grouse, I just want to put one one the ground for her. What am I doing wrong? Am I doing anything wrong? My buddy says grouse are different and it is like starting over for her and that once I kill one or two, she will put it all together. He claims grouse have a different scent and that once the dog gets her teeth on one it will come together. Any thoughts on this would be great. I am starting to get bewildered.
Bob

[bobinpa]

Lady at the end of her first pheasant hunt.

[birddogger]

I don't know anything about grouse, but as Ezzy said, all birds have a different scent. I am betting she will figure it out with enough exposure. Sounds like a real nice dog.

Charlie

[MARKB]

I would say since she has only been worked on pigeons and pen raised birds, that it might take her a while to figure out the new "wild" bird scent - Grouse.

But if the snow is dry and it has no moisture in it and the air is dry ,imagine sticking your head in a freezer and hoping to smell a frozen chicken.

My guess though is she been only exposed to "Stinky" pen raised birds, keep working her on grouse, she'll come around, she looks like a nice dog.

Plus watch how many birds you shoot without her pointing them or you'll end up with a flushing dog and not a pointing dog, it's worth it not to shoot non-pointed birds in the long run !!!!

[ezzy333]

Snow is 100% moisture no matter how dry it is. The similarity of frozen bird giving off scent compared to a warm live bird on a cold day just doesn't work. Hot dry conditions make it hard to pick up scent but cold damp should be ideal. Just not sure how the scent of different birds work since most dogs will point a bird the first time it is exposed to it and normally learns not to point one only after you have ignored that particular specie. Dogs point mice, meadow larks, and anything else when they are encountered till you teach them not to.

Ezzy

[Sharon]

Bobinpa:

Hey , I have a setter called Lady, too. She's a runt but she's a firecracker in the field.

[ezzy333]

I thought setters had long hair and a tail. :roll:

Ezzy

[Ditch__Parrot]

Nice looking dog.

Though I don't know a thing about grouse I'll agree with whats already been said. Exposure..and experience. The planted birds might work great for teaching the mechanics of what you want. But they just aren't wild birds and there not grouse either. So new smells in different places and probably won't let her put as much pressure on them as pen birds. Give her time to figure it out and I'll bet she'll transition alright if you like what you've seen on the other birds. Just expect a few hiccups while she figures them out. Pay attention and she might just teach you more than you teach her.

As far as snow. Generally I agree with Ezzy. Dogs seem to pick up the scent easier. At least thats what I've seen but my dogs are used to hunting in it also. My pups first time hunting in snow she was a bit off at first but came around quickly. Though certain parts of hunting in snow make it harder. Like birds burrowing down into holes in the snow.

[M1Tanker]

I pretty much hunt grouse 90% of the time 100% of the season up here and have found that any moisture, save a downpour, brings good scenting conditions.

Grouse do not have a faint scent but they have a jittery disposition and will not tolerate a dog getting too close without running to a point 60 yards in front of the dog and flushing unseen. This makes it really hard to explain why they will sit on the side of a road and get blasted by the locals...but they are a tough bird for a dog to handle.

In my experience, it takes a dog many, many grouse contacts to figure out how to handle them. I usually do not place a verdict on whether or not one of my pups is going to be a "grouse dog" until after the 3rd season...and I am not kidding. Sure there are some naturals but in general, you won't know what you have on grouse until that third season.

So...back to your situation. I think there are a couple of things going on.

1. Age of the dog...she is a nice looking pup and just a pup. Let her run on those grouse and if she runs over them, then so be it for now. If she is good, she will learn where the line is with grouse and with experience, she will start stopping at that line but it takes a lot of contacts. If you have done the field work, and you have by the sound of it, it will come together. You have to let her figure it out that first year without putting to much control on her...she will learn and by you letting her learn, you are building confidence.

2. Conditions...yes the snow is wet but the birds are not usually on the ground this time of year. With the snow and cold, they roost in the snow (if it is deep enough) and then jump to the trees to bud in the morning, then to spruce trees during the day, one last trip to bud in early evening, then back into the snow roost. It is likely that the dog is not smelling them because they are off the ground.

Next summer, she will be old enough to work with launchers. Do this and teach her to stop on first scent...there are plenty of posts on here that will assist or you can enlist your friend for assistance.

Hang in there...despite what some believe and IMO...ruffed grouse are one of the toughest birds for a dog to handle. If you take your time, let her mature at her schedule, and give her plenty of grouse contacts (this is a good time to have a pup as numbers are up for the next few years) to build confidence without interrupting or confusing her...you will likely end up with a nice grouse hunter.

Don't give up on her yet...trust me on this one, my small kennel and a large part of my life is devoted to hunting this bird...it just takes time.

[SamnTuck]

I just got my first pointing dog - and German Shorthair and I'm just starting to seriously hunt grouse and trying to figure things out. Though I didn't start the post, I appreciate all of the advice that you guys shell out on the forum. I'm noticing that grouse numbers are pretty high in upstate NY, and I've found a pretty good patch of woods(I consistently get 2-4 flushes each time in around 1 hour of hunting). I believe my 19 week old pup is getting as much exposure as I can get for him. Going off things I've picked up around here, I've been getting him in some really think undergrowth and spruces, and last outing, despite virtually no wind, we flushed a few birds and upon hearing that exhilarating rush of wing beats, he finally caught site of his first grouse and went wild when I lead him to the site of the flush. I'm hoping that the two of us can teach each other a thing or two about hunting these wary birds. Again, thanks guys!

[Sharon]

I thought setters had long hair and a tail. :roll:

Ezzy

Hey you! Are you making fun of my dog?

[Mike50]

I've only had bird dogs for a couple years. But the only time I've had points on a grouse sitting in a tree was when there was snow on the ground. Better scenting conditions We think so.

[MARKB]

Dogs point mice, meadow larks, and anything else when they are encountered till you teach them not to.

Ezzy

Huh, I've never had a bird dog point one these elusive creatures ????

[Ruffshooter]

I agree with most everything, but would like to add a little twist.
1) When you think your dog is not pointing Ruffs in the snow, do you ever see tracks in the snow? They will walk around on top of the snow and leave tracks you can see or there should be place in the sun maybe under a blow down or fir branches etc. They will go to ground for different reasons, feed, sun and out of the wind.
2) When a bird walks on the snow it is leaving less scent simply because it is not touching as much of the under growth.
3) When the birds are roosted in a treeor budding, many times, once a dog learns the habits of Ruffs, you may notice your dogs nose going to the air and the dog circling a tree pointing circling and finally a point.. Be ready. (In the late afternoon the temps are colder so the Ruffs scent will fall to the earth and your dog may learn to pick up that scent. This is true not just in snow but many cooler afternoons.
4) In early spring after the snow is gone, take your pup to some paper company land that is safe and find road birds, let the birds go into the woods then bring your dog to the track and let your dog go. After a few of these and she catches up to the bird she will flush the first few, then hopefully she will start pointing.
5) In late August or early Sept. You can do the same and add rasberry patches to the walks, you will find the broods, (they will be flying well by then.) Make sure to check for your self first in case there was a ridiculously late hatch.
6) Although, snow by nature is frozen water, the air can be very dry,When cold, and when there is snow on the ground it seems the NW winds pick up a little more dispating the scent, which is harder for a young dog to figure out.
7) As stated, keep your dog in the bird work, in the Ruffs, let her learn on her own, do the launcher work etc., She will get it.
Ruffs are spooky, it does take 2 1/2 to 4 1/2 years for a dog to learn Ruffs, depending on how many contacts and opportunities you give her.

Have fun.
Rick

[north country guy]

I Also Hunt A lot Of Grouse. They Are The Hardest Bird For A Dog But Don't Give Up That Dog Will Soon Understand !!! But Like They Say Only Shoot The Pointed Bird :roll: