for together- train a natural

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Shadow
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for together- train a natural

Post by Shadow » Tue Jan 05, 2010 7:35 am

didn't want to hijack the other thread- why for the love of god would I need or want to train a natural 5 month backer

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Re: for together- train a natural

Post by Ruffshooter » Tue Jan 05, 2010 10:46 am

I don't understand: Why would you train a puppy to back? Or train a puppy that apparantly has a bunch of natural talent?
In either of these two, five months to young for training formally but not too young for "basic obedience", conditioning for training and preparing. If training for an honor, too young but eventually if one is to trial or hunt test then it should be driven home with proper training. If for hunting, then it is up to you and your hunting partners.

Did I miss the whole point? I suspect I did.
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Re: for together- train a natural

Post by GUNSMOKE » Tue Jan 05, 2010 10:55 am

If I'm understanding you guys right, if me personally had a dog that young who has shown me all that what you people call natural ability I would probably be inclined to get rid of it. Now hold on dont anybody go getting their hackles ruffled. I've been at this for awhile and it's been my experience that when a dog that young shows you all that he or she has pretty much shown you all that they are ever going to be. But I'm sure that their will be people on this board who have something to say about it.

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Re: for together- train a natural

Post by ezzy333 » Tue Jan 05, 2010 11:01 am

GUNSMOKE wrote:If I'm understanding you guys right, if me personally had a dog that young who has shown me all that what you people call natural ability I would probably be inclined to get rid of it. Now hold on dont anybody go getting their hackles ruffled. I've been at this for awhile and it's been my experience that when a dog that young shows you all that he or she has pretty much shown you all that they are ever going to be. But I'm sure that their will be people on this board who have something to say about it.

HUH? Are you saying that pups that do something good while young should be gotten rid of so you can keep one that doesn't show any natural abilities? If pups show all they are going to be then please let me find one that shows a lot.

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Re: for together- train a natural

Post by topher40 » Tue Jan 05, 2010 11:05 am

I think Shadow is referring to my post from the "puppy pricing" thread where I said a dog still needs to be trained even when showing natural ability. IMO a pup that shows these natural tendencies isnt worth any more since you will still have to train it at some point. Just like building a house you cant put the truss's up until you have the walls framed, there is an order that MUST be followed in training no matter how good the foundation is. Sounds like the pup Shadow was referring to has a great foundation but you will still need to put the walls up. :lol:
Ruffshooter wrote: If training for an honor, too young but eventually if one is to trial or hunt test then it should be driven home with proper training.

Rick

Shadow this is exactly what I meant. Even with a natural backer, retriever, etc. you need to train, when age appropriate, to drive home the point so they dont quit you during one of these tasks. :wink:
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Re: for together- train a natural

Post by Shadow » Tue Jan 05, 2010 5:55 pm

together- never trained upon natural ability- if they have it they have it

Gunsmoke- are you nuts- this little girl has pointed and held to flush wild pheasants, retrieved, and came into backing on her own- she backs her father every time- might be something to the effect she knows it's her father- who knows-

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Re: for together- train a natural

Post by topher40 » Tue Jan 05, 2010 5:57 pm

I think everyone was a bit thrown for a loop by your subject line Shadow, I am topher not together...... :wink: :lol:
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Re: for together- train a natural

Post by Shadow » Tue Jan 05, 2010 6:23 pm

Ruffshooter- explain how I can hunt a pup with an adult if it doesn't back

formal training- never done it- oh wait- my first Britt long ago I did- haven't on any since- basic obedience train- never done it

together was saying you must train or he guarantees the pup will not be good when it gets older-

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Re: for together- train a natural

Post by Shadow » Tue Jan 05, 2010 6:30 pm

topher40 wrote:I think everyone was a bit thrown for a loop by your subject line Shadow, I am topher not together...... :wink: :lol:
no I don't think so- some think you must train no matter what- you said even if they have it at 5 months you still need to back up and build the foundation-
so tell me- i have two 5 month olds- what would you do- break them down and start from scratch and stick to a detailed training program- force them to do it wrong and then build them up to where they were

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Re: for together- train a natural

Post by birddogger » Tue Jan 05, 2010 7:15 pm

Shadow wrote:
topher40 wrote:I think everyone was a bit thrown for a loop by your subject line Shadow, I am topher not together...... :wink: :lol:
no I don't think so- some think you must train no matter what- you said even if they have it at 5 months you still need to back up and build the foundation-
so tell me- i have two 5 month olds- what would you do- break them down and start from scratch and stick to a detailed training program- force them to do it wrong and then build them up to where they were
As I am reading this, I am wondering if somebody spiked your coffee. :? Nobody said anything about breaking a pup down, forcing them to do it wrong or have a detailed training program at 5 months old.

topher, NOT TOGETHER, did not say to back up and build the foundation. He correctly said that even if the foundation is there, you still have to put up the walls. Even with a good foundation [natural ability], there is still work to be done. :)

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Re: for together- train a natural

Post by topher40 » Tue Jan 05, 2010 7:25 pm

Shadow-
I dont want to get into a battle of semantics, I was only stating exactly what I have stated three times and now birddogger has stated once. I cant think of any other way to say it. Obviously you disagree or I am not stating it very well, either way lets agree to disagree. :lol:
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Re: for together- train a natural

Post by Shadow » Wed Jan 06, 2010 6:45 am

I think I have it figured out- you don't hunt youngsters with adults
you also start all your pups on shocker collars

you start your clients pups on shockers and explain

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Re: for together- train a natural

Post by Meller » Wed Jan 06, 2010 7:07 am

I've tryed to resist getting in on this, but here goes, I think your all agreeing and don't relize it, Shadow my take on what Topher is saying is that your backing 5mo. olds have a strong
foundation, so you would work to increase that strengh, (use it to your advantage ) in training with reinforcement, as you would with all natural instincts. :)
Now I'm not trying to put words in anyone's mouth ; Just my take on the statement's read.

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Re: for together- train a natural

Post by Ruffshooter » Wed Jan 06, 2010 7:36 am

Shadow: Probably a mistake for me to respond here, but what the heck.

I said nothing about you should or should not hunt your pup with adults. I said it would be up to you and your hunting buddies. You certainly could hunt your dog with an adult, even if your dog does not honor, It may just go bump birds, steal points etc. and your buddies may not care or they will be PO'ed. You have a dog that honors at 5 months naturally that is great, they don't all do that.

All anyone here is saying is that to have a more polished dog and bomb proof dog, training will firm up you great pups natural instincts no matter how early in life they show these instincts. To build on the greatness of your pup. (Training is not breaking a dog down!!! ) If you never want to trial, then it really is not all that important to have the polish and fool proofness, unless one wants it. As stated by many people, mostly pros and stout amatures, let the pup learn on its own, (which is what you do) (I do not know what training or how far you take it, must have some obedience at least) once the [/b]dog gets to a certain maturity and age, then they start the formal training. How can this be wrong, any more than you doing what you do?

I suspect if you trialed and your dog was pulled for your dog creeping on a point or honor or for steeling a point or blinking an honor situation, or dropped a bird on the way back to you on a retrieve, you too would be training for a more polished dog. (I understand you like your naturaly wild bird, trained dogs and I too like a dog to learn all it can on wild birds but I like polish too. That is my preference and works well for me in the ruff woods and in the few trials I participate in.) I am more tolerant of my dogs in the woods than I am in a trial and usually need to brush up on some of the manners before participating in trials or hunt tests.

Have a great day enjoy the 5 month old.

Rick
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Re: for together- train a natural

Post by RayGubernat » Wed Jan 06, 2010 11:52 am

Shadow -

I too should probably stay out of this, but I really cannot.

You apparently want to work with your dogs and have them gain experience on birds and hunting. So far so good. However, you have given me, though you responses, the disticnct impression that you are willing to accept whatever the dogs are willing to give. That is also good...for you. However, you need to recognize that what is abolutely wonderful for you might not be so wonderful for someone else.

You, as I said, are apparently content with what your dogs are willing to give you. There are others, myself included, who want more out of their dogs. The more some want is along the lines of ..."just what is this dog capable of?"

That quest for more can take many, many forms. It can do in the direction of any of several types of field trials, any of several types of hunt tests, obedience or agility competitions, or it can take the form of perfecting the dog's skill on different species of game.

In some of those competitions you need to understand that a tremendous dose of natural ability is merely a prerequisite for any dog. They absolutely have to have a boatload of natural talent to begin with.

You also need to understand that it is also the place where the competitive trainer will start. They endeavor to take the natural abilities that the dog posesses, develop them, refine them, train over any shortcomings and attempt to create a dog that will exhibit those tremedous natural talents to a level approaching perfection in the heat of competition, under the pressure of intense scrutiny. All this without losing the fire, desire and style that God and the breeder put in there.

Bottom line... your dog...your call. You know what you want out of your dog. If it is right for you and what you want...then it is right for you. End of story.

BUT...just because it is right for you does not mean that it is right for the next guy.

FWIW, I take a 12 wk old puppy and play train it, mess with it...A LOT. I will take that 12 wk. old pup and put a wonder lead on it. I will begin to introduce the heel/whoa concept at the earliest possible age. I will also put that pup up on a bench and stroke it and mess with it on that bench, encouraging it to stand and learn to love being stroked.

WHY? Because, as an adult, that dog will have to stand there, for as long as it takes for me to get there and will have to look like a million bucks, all the while, including when a herd of horses is thundering down toward it and folks are whooping and hollering and thrashing around in the brush. All the natural ability in the world won't get your dog there.

RayG

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Re: for together- train a natural

Post by topher40 » Wed Jan 06, 2010 12:34 pm

Shadow wrote:I think I have it figured out- you don't hunt youngsters with adults
you also start all your pups on shocker collars

you start your clients pups on shockers and explain
Shadow-
I have a hard time understanding what your point is, maybe it comes out better in your head than in written form, that happens to me ALL the time. :D Or maybe its a grammar and punctuation issue, either way it is tough to understand what you are stating most of the time. I will try to explain as best as I can. As for your last statement above, I do start ALL dogs on the collar at an early age.

Do I use it until they are properly conditioned? No
Is it on before proper conditioning? no

Funny story:
I was talking with a guy a couple of weeks ago about my DT collar and he was wanting to know how long tbe battery will last. I informed him that I hunt a ton, even pup's with old dogs :wink: , and I charge it the night before season and that charge will last for the season. I run anywhere between 6-10 dogs depending on what I have "in stock" and they all use the same collar. The only dog that doesnt get the collar is the ole setter. He is 9, and reliable as they get. Come to think of it he actually gets run with EVERY puppy when we are out, forgot about that. So I guess your statement is correct that "I start my clients pups on shockers" & that I start all my own as puppies. Guess there is no better time to get them use to it than when they are out having happy time but I could be wrong, it happened once. :lol:
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Re: for together- train a natural

Post by Duane M » Wed Jan 06, 2010 3:37 pm

GUNSMOKE wrote:If I'm understanding you guys right, if me personally had a dog that young who has shown me all that what you people call natural ability I would probably be inclined to get rid of it. Now hold on dont anybody go getting their hackles ruffled. I've been at this for awhile and it's been my experience that when a dog that young shows you all that he or she has pretty much shown you all that they are ever going to be. But I'm sure that their will be people on this board who have something to say about it.
Lot of truth there Gunsmoke and maybe one reason, not the only one mind you, that so many wonder derby dogs are never heard from as a Shooting Dog or All Age. Some of these best dogs I have personally seen were pups no one wanted because they would not point a wing, showed no inclination to back littermates or were just a handful. Likewise some of the prodigys I have seen never became more than what they were born with, regardless of the trainer or training. Prodigy does not mean legendary.

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Re: for together- train a natural

Post by Shadow » Wed Jan 06, 2010 4:51 pm

Ray- you said it pretty good-

I have played in AKC and NSTRA field trials- I know what a polished pointing dog is- also know what a poor sloppy one is

guess what I'm saying is- my Brittany's have turned into pretty good gun dogs by letting them learn from the adults- I don't train- backing has come naturally or I'll handle them into a back real young- doesn't take very much to make them good backers-

some say my handling is training- in that scense I suppose it is- I sure don't plan any type of training

being that noone has seen any of mine I can see some not believing- done absolutely no training with my male- he's pretty good

it was just a post to Topher40's (ah sorry about that spelling) saying or seeming to say to me that naturaly pointing, retrieving, backing, and handling wasn't enough- you had to train to make sure it stuck- I don't see it that way

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Re: for together- train a natural

Post by RayGubernat » Wed Jan 06, 2010 7:34 pm

Shadow -

I see. You are working with Brittanys. Now I understand the natural talent you were referring to. :lol: :lol:

Actually I am being a little bit of a wiseacre and a bit of a PIA, but the fact of the matter is that Brittanys, at least the ones I have been around, do have an abundance of desire to be with you and do what you want them to do. Biddability I believe it is called. They are also pretty soft of temperament and thus fairly easy to bend to your will and most also seem fairly quick on the uptake. Again, these are my impressions from those that I have been around.

That kind of personality do help a mite when it comes to getting a dog to do what you want with very little stress and strain.

RayG

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Re: for together- train a natural

Post by Shadow » Thu Jan 07, 2010 7:11 am

RayGubernat wrote:Shadow -

I see. You are working with Brittanys. Now I understand the natural talent you were referring to. :lol: :lol:

Actually I am being a little bit of a wiseacre and a bit of a PIA, but the fact of the matter is that Brittanys, at least the ones I have been around, do have an abundance of desire to be with you and do what you want them to do. Biddability I believe it is called. They are also pretty soft of temperament and thus fairly easy to bend to your will and most also seem fairly quick on the uptake. Again, these are my impressions from those that I have been around.

That kind of personality do help a mite when it comes to getting a dog to do what you want with very little stress and strain.

RayG
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Re: for together- train a natural

Post by jt807 » Sat Jan 09, 2010 8:55 am

Shadow wrote:
topher40 wrote:I think everyone was a bit thrown for a loop by your subject line Shadow, I am topher not together...... :wink: :lol:
no I don't think so- some think you must train no matter what- you said even if they have it at 5 months you still need to back up and build the foundation-
so tell me- i have two 5 month olds- what would you do- break them down and start from scratch and stick to a detailed training program- force them to do it wrong and then build them up to where they were
I would not recommend any training program that forces a dog to do something wrong at any point in the training. Perhaps that is the underlying confusion of your issue. Maybe you should switch training programs, and then you can see what is meant by driving home.

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