4 Litters in 4 years too much??

[rae61]

We are looking to purchase a Lab from a local breeder, they are not a large outfit, 1 male and two females.

All have great hunting pedigrees, the thing that worries me is that the female had pups in July 09 and also had
litters in 07 and 08. They are planning to breed her when she come into heat late this month or next.

My question, is this to hard on the dog and is it possible that this upcoming litter might not be as healthy
as they could be? Any thoughts on breeding a dog this much in a short time?

Thanks.














we are looking

[kninebirddog]

As long as she is in good health and fed and exercised that is completely fine.... it is when someone breeds a female every heat cycle they come in year after year and neglect the nutrition that the female needs That can take a toll

[kerplunk105]

I think breeding 1x/year is common practice. Usually every other heat cycle.

[mcbosco]

how old is the bitch?

[rae61]

The bitch is 5yrs this Febuary. It's good to hear that this should not be an issue.

[ezzy333]

There is a lot of recent evidence that breeding often is not a problem. If the female gets run down she will not come into heat. But I still think once a year is enough.

Ezzy

[solon]

A reproduction specialist (I would have to look in my records to tell you who it was) gave a talk at a Canine Health Foundation meeting two years ago and she said that the very best practice would be to breed a bitch every cycle after 2 yrs of age for 5 or so litters, and then spay her. The reason is that the uterus undergoes cyctic changes with each cycle that predispose to pyometra, which is not rare. The risk of pyometra would be minimized by this strategy. So the one in question is not being bred too often.

Solon

[Neil]

Solon,

I don't recall the expert(s) either, but I have an Iams' DVD set on breeding that a couple of them say that having an unbred heat cycle is harder on them than being bred and having a litter.

Once again we are taking what is right for humans and trying to apply it to dogs. The healthiest dog in our kennel is a spayed 8 year old that has had 6 litters, but my wife takes great care with pre and post natal care. Nutrition and exercise are the keys.

Neil

[mcbosco]

The bitch is 5yrs this Febuary. It's good to hear that this should not be an issue.

So is the breeder planning this as her last litter?

[ezzy333]

The bitch is 5yrs this Febuary. It's good to hear that this should not be an issue.

So is the breeder planning this as her last litter?

What does this have to do with what the question is? And how would the poster know or why would he care?

Ezzy

[mcbosco]

The bitch is 5yrs this Febuary. It's good to hear that this should not be an issue.

So is the breeder planning this as her last litter?

What does this have to do with what the question is? And how would the poster know or why would he care?

Ezzy

Why would he care? hmmmmm

[Dave Quindt]

A reproduction specialist (I would have to look in my records to tell you who it was) gave a talk at a Canine Health Foundation meeting two years ago and she said that the very best practice would be to breed a bitch every cycle after 2 yrs of age for 5 or so litters, and then spay her. The reason is that the uterus undergoes cyctic changes with each cycle that predispose to pyometra, which is not rare. The risk of pyometra would be minimized by this strategy.

Solon,

I've heard about this approach a few years (5+) from a local vet, so it's been around for a while. While I understand the medical benefits, I believe it is contradictory to quality canine breeding practices.

If the entire idea behind quality breeding practices is to improve the quality of the pups produced, litter over litter, there is no way the method you outlined could be used. There simply isn’t enough time to evaluate the pups produced in litter 1, by the time litter 2 would have to be conceived. Heck, there isn’t enough time to truly know what you’ve got in litter 1 before litter 3 would be conceived. How many times have we seen puppy/derby dogs that look to be the next great dogs, and by the time they are 3 no one is interested in them because we’ve figured out they’ve got aggression or trainability or stability issues.

Setting aside performance quality issues (trainability, flagging, etc), there are just too many health issues that are not visible in a litter of 6-8 month old pups to take the risk of rebreeding a female. It’s hard to argue that breeding a female back to back at 2 & 2.5 years of age to reduce the chances of pyometra is worth the chance of producing 1 or 2 or 3 litters of pups before you realizes you’ve got multiple dogs with epilepsy or aggression or vaginal strictures, much less performance issues we’re trying to avoid.

There is a good argument to breeding females at least once, in that 2-3 year age class as it reduces the chances of having problems when rebreeding at a more advanced age. I got a rather stern lecture by repro DVM a few years ago when trying to get my 5 y.o. female bred for the first time and having all sorts of issues. I was told in no uncertain terms to highly consider breeding any female I wished to breed at some point, at least once before roughly their 6th cycle (3.5 y.o.) as it makes breeding the mature adult age female much easier.

From a performance breeding standpoint, it makes a lot of sense to breed this first time to a sire that not only compliments the female, but has well-documented track record of production pups of a known type. This allows the breeder to evaluate the pups from first litter against the sire’s “average” pup to determine what traits the female in question is throwing. From there, you can then either rebreed to the same male if the original litter was strong, or breed to a different sire to (hopefully) produce an even better second litter. Darn near impossible to follow this strategy breeding every cycle.

While I understand why a reproduction specialist would make that recommendation, I’m not sure a working geneticist (working, not clinical) would agree with this approach. I also wince every time this comes up, as it gives the breeder more interested in revenue than producing quality pups an excuse for breeding every female almost every time she’s in season.

So the one in question is not being bred too often.

Hmm, depends on your perspective. From a puppy buyer’s perspective, the question is how were previous litters evaluated and why was this particular pairing bred? I’d be even more concerned if the male chosen for each of these litters was the one male the breeder happened to own. If quality breeding is matching a female to a quality male that complements her strengths & weaknesses, what are the chances that the one male owned by the breeder is the right male for that female?

To the original poster, I would have no problem buying a pup from a female on her 4th litter. What I would question is the quality of the breeding being done; for me there are some warning flags.

JMO,
Dave

[mountaindogs]

Labs have lots of genetically inheritable diseases (love them and have one - mind you!) for the still working, sporting dogs. I would think the annual litters are fine to a point with caution, but I would be more concerned with health screenings and seeing the parents (for skin, coat temperment, structure etc....) I know more labs with health issues than without. Look into this and ask the breeder about them. Be wary of statements like, "we have never heard or seen any of this or that health problem" If they car about the breed to the utmost they will stay as informed as possible. Also be wary of temperment. It is increasingly an issue with the breed, sadly. Still a lot of great ones around though.
http://www.caninehealthinfo.org/brdreqs.html?breed=LR

Also be aware of and familiar with EIC. It is an up and coming problem with an astounding number of suspected carriers. Just be aware of it, as CHIC has not added it yet.

[mcbosco]

My question above might have been cryptic but the reason I asked if this would be the bitch's last litter had a point. If this is not the bitch's last litter, then she will be 6 years old going on her 5th the litter. If the breeder tells you she plans to breed her again without any proviso or qualification, then I would wonder about the breeder. That's my opinion. I don't think I would breed a bitch that age for a 5th go around without careful consideration.

[dan v]

Hmm, depends on your perspective. From a puppy buyer’s perspective, the question is how were previous litters evaluated and why was this particular pairing bred? I’d be even more concerned if the male chosen for each of these litters was the one male the breeder happened to own. If quality breeding is matching a female to a quality male that complements her strengths & weaknesses, what are the chances that the one male owned by the breeder is the right male for that female?

To the original poster, I would have no problem buying a pup from a female on her 4th litter. What I would question is the quality of the breeding being done; for me there are some warning flags.

JMO,
Dave

Good thoughts Dave.

Here's a question that I would have. 4 litters in 4 years...same sire? Or?

I think a good case can be made for having a female bred 1x/year, to differing studs, and then a repeat to the sire that produced the better offspring....if any were really good. But really, 3 litters spaced nicely, is plenty.

[rae61]

Great feedback, to answer some questions: this is the fourth breeding to the same Sire and yes they own him. They have used this same Sire for the only breeding of there other bitch. Not sure if they will breed bitch for the fifth time. They mentioned that would like to keep a male from this breeding to use as a possible Sire in the future.

It seems to me that they started out with three good dogs with strong championship / hunting backgrounds but want to ride that "horse" for all it's worth.
In talking to them there is no indication of introducing other Sires and no indication of adding other bitches. I know that they have had positive feedback
from the people who hunted their pups but none that are working on any titles.

[dan v]

Great feedback, to answer some questions: this is the fourth breeding to the same Sire and yes they own him. They have used this same Sire for the only breeding of there other bitch. Not sure if they will breed bitch for the fifth time. They mentioned that would like to keep a male from this breeding to use as a possible Sire in the future.

It seems to me that they started out with three good dogs with strong championship / hunting backgrounds but want to ride that "horse" for all it's worth.
In talking to them there is no indication of introducing other Sires and no indication of adding other bitches. I know that they have had positive feedback
from the people who hunted their pups but none that are working on any titles.

That's a working definition of "Ready" being bred to "Handy".

We field calls from people inquiring about our litters. At least 60% ask if we own the sire and the dam. We normally respond with, "We aren't fortunate enough to own the sire that we deem the best mate to this female. Then the customary pregnant pause, "That makes sense."

If they're nice dogs, more power to them. But by only using a single stud on their female, they really don't know what they could have had.

[mountaindogs]

I agree pretty much with the above.
It's not in and of itself a deal breaker. The sire might BE producing exactly what they want with that female, consitently. But choosing a stud dog is also a big descision. Choosing the right female is too. If I was looking at this litter, and something like that bothered me, I would do some questioning.
How much time does it look like they put into researching lines, deciding on the match, and what traits do they like that they are producing?
How do they feel that male and female together are going to produce something great for the breed? Is this also describing what YOU want in YOUR puppy? (in another breed, I know a breeder that runs agility, for example. She has over the years produced great dogs, but all FAST and VERY ENERGETIC dogs that have a hard time with nothing to do. This describes most hunting breeds anyway, but be sure they are trying for what you are wanting.)
Do they know about the lineage and background of each dog? Not just what the pedigree says, but can they describe the traits the specifically like that these lines have?
Did they put in the time and effort to health test, and hunt test, or trial?
Again it just all adds up to a total of thought and time put into deciding on the right match. If one or two things were lacking but they were strong in another area, it might be worth it to you. If you ask all these questions and it looks like they haven't done much beyond raise two good dogs and breed them, then it tells you something.
Then after that how do they raise their puppies? "Home raised" sounds all goo like they are getting lots of attention, but is someone home everyday with them?
Is mom alone with her puppies most of the day?
Do they introduce to retrieving, early commands, gunshot?
Do they get to romp and play outdoors everyday or just maybe Saturday that sombody has off?
And what do they put into vetting the pups? Does the vet see them or do they do vaccinations and eveything themselves. Again none of these are deal breakers, but just helps you make a whole informed descision.

But it is all a gamble and you are just changing your odds. I have a had a not so great, extremely well raised, well bred dog that was very pricey. I have now a great dog that was really out of a not so great local breeder, but she is spayed and a just a great family pet/hunting dog. And I have several well bred, very nice dogs, with health testing and pedigrees behind them to boot. So, nothing is a given. Best luck.