Novice FT'er, need a mentor

[k2k]

I'm going to enter my EP in AKC puppy stakes this spring. There. I put in writing. Now I have to do it!

I've read the rules, but I have some questions on procedures and perhaps a little in the way of training, and probably will have more, as I ponder what I have just committed to.

I'd really like to converse/pm one-on-one occasionally and get some answers to questions I might have.

Anyone willing to help a first-timer out?

Thanks,

Karen

[steady on point]

Are you planning on running in AKC Hunt tests or field trials?

[shags]

Karen,

Attend atrial or two before you run your pup. Walk or ride as the case may be the puppy stakes and pay attention to the performances; when placements are awarded you'll see what the judges looked for. Puppy stakes and their judges are far from equal so the more you observe, the better idea you have what is preferred in your area.

Go and have fun - run your pup and learn the ropes. Don't take it too seriously. Trials are a microcosm of the real world - there are jerks around and there are also the best people you'd want to meet.

In the meantime, work all the overtime you can just in case you decide that trialling is a game you want to continue Once you're hooked there's no limit to the amount of cash you'll need

[Brittguy]

you may PM me anytime you wish.

[mudhunter]

Go to some trials and talk to people, most trial people are willing to help a great deal and you may hook up with people in your area! Go ahead and run you puppy, not much is expected of a pup so you have little risk of doing any harm, it will give people a chance to see you as well.

[topher40]

K2K-
Congratulations on not "putting the cart before the horse"!!! It is nice to see someone ask for help before they enter these "dangerous" waters! Good luck to you!

Mudhunter-
I would have to disagree that not much harm can be done. Running puppies can create some tough problems to correct in the training process, i.e. chasing, tagging, disobedience. I dont like running puppies because you loose control without a checkcord or collar. You also never know what your bracemate is going to do. With a young pup all it can take is one time being rolled by a bigger, older pup to create a timid dog out of your new prospect.

[mudhunter]

K2K-


Mudhunter-
I would have to disagree that not much harm can be done. Running puppies can create some tough problems to correct in the training process, i.e. chasing, tagging, disobedience. I dont like running puppies because you loose control without a checkcord or collar. You also never know what your bracemate is going to do. With a young pup all it can take is one time being rolled by a bigger, older pup to create a timid dog out of your new prospect.

I agree with you there, my thought was as a handler you do not need to know a whole lot to run a puppy!

[k2k]

Thanks, all, for the replies, pm and in the thread. I'll be having questions for you, that's for sure!

Topher40, you gave me some food for thought (and worry). I respect your opinion, having read many of your posts.

Cam's a pretty bold, and very independent little gal. I've run her a few times with a GSP pup who's got 15 pounds on her and wants to play sometimes. She pretty much tells him to eff off, that she's got a job to do. At home she holds her own with a crabby 10 yr old GWP, and her playmate is a 3 yr old GWP. She gives as good as she gets.

Still, I realize something bad could happen, but I have to start somewhere. I figure we're both pups at the game, and I'm going to have to learn everything I can to help her.

Meanwhile, it looks like I'll be needing a second job I can see myself getting hooked on this. Oh Lord, what have I done????

Karen

[topher40]

Topher40, you gave me some food for thought (and worry). I respect your opinion, having read many of your posts.

Karen

Thats where your going wrong!!! Good luck still!

[RayGubernat]

Karen -

One thing comes to mind. Around here, they sometimes plant birds for puppy stakes in AKC.

That drives me nuts. About he last thing I need is for my youngster to be out there rousting birds, catching birds and all of that, while I cannot do anything about it in the way of discipline.

In AF stakes, it is extremely rare for there to be birds on course for puppy stakes and I very much prefer it that way. You want your puppy to search for birds and search diligently. What it does when it actually finds a bird is(or should be) of little or no relevance in a puppy stake.

You might want to check with the sponsoring club and ask that question.

Chris is giving you some good advice on being careful where you put your youngster down. My first field trial dog was a real nice little gyp. She could scream. I put her down eight times and she placed seven times. She was RU puppy of the year in my state. Unfortunately, it was two and a half years before I could get her around a field trial course and three before i place her again. She had learned that she was out there on her own at a trial and she took full advantage of it.

Knowing what I now know, I would have run her once or twice for the experience and saved myself a whole lot of work.


RayG

[shags]

I'm the opposite of Ray on this one - I've never damaged our training program by having a puppy find birds on course. I find that allowing a pup to find birds adds to their education in that they learn that they are on course for a reason, not just running crazy or learning to mouse because they're bored or frustrated.
If a puppy rips a bird, so what? It happens, and they eventually mature and are trained out of it.

However, I think moderation the key. My pups get a few exposures as juveniles then we're done til they are ready for broke dog stakes. They are not 'campaigned' as puppies/derbies as I've seen some nice youngsters fall into the chaos that Ray describes when the owner chases a bunch of juvenile wins.

So, use your judgment on this one. You need to have a sense of what the pup needs.

[Wildweeds]

Since your in washington I'd suggest http://www.quicksilverkennels.com my guess is that your somewhere close and he'll help you out I'm sure of it.No birds on puppy courses here unless they are wild.

[k2k]

Ernie,

RJ is a little over an hour from me. Thanks for the suggestion.

I probably won't go to many puppy trials, there just aren't that many close by. Basically I just want to try it out. I'll get ahold of the trial secretary and see if they'll be planting birds.

And I keep seeing "gyp". What is that exactly? I can't figure it out.

Thanks again all,

Karen

[Wildweeds]

Gyp would be the other term for Dam.There should be a GSP club trial at fishtrap this spring,the britts should be having one or two trials at Goose butte near Ritzville as well.

[ezzy333]

Gyp is a female.

Ezzy

[k2k]

Gyp, well, I never would have come up with the meaning for that.

Ernie,

The GSP trial in Fishtrap is the one I'm planning on going to. I haven't seen anything on the Goose Butte one, but I check the AKC website now and then.

Cheers!

Karen

[dogirl]

Karen -

One thing comes to mind. Around here, they sometimes plant birds for puppy stakes in AKC.

That drives me nuts. About he last thing I need is for my youngster to be out there rousting birds, catching birds and all of that, while I cannot do anything about it in the way of discipline.

In AF stakes, it is extremely rare for there to be birds on course for puppy stakes and I very much prefer it that way. You want your puppy to search for birds and search diligently. What it does when it actually finds a bird is(or should be) of little or no relevance in a puppy stake.

You might want to check with the sponsoring club and ask that question.

Chris is giving you some good advice on being careful where you put your youngster down. My first field trial dog was a real nice little gyp. She could scream. I put her down eight times and she placed seven times. She was RU puppy of the year in my state. Unfortunately, it was two and a half years before I could get her around a field trial course and three before i place her again. She had learned that she was out there on her own at a trial and she took full advantage of it.

Knowing what I now know, I would have run her once or twice for the experience and saved myself a whole lot of work.


RayG

Great advice...I learned the hard way with my first GWP. She placed every time I put her down and was exciting to watch. I was hooked. Since then...with my second GWP I only ran him in 2-3 puppy stakes for experience and then off to school we went where I could control him. I also have a new EP pup and she will be entered in 1-2 stakes with NO BIRDS in order to garner some experience. We have a couple of clubs here that with run puppy as the first stake on the first day so you wont get any leftovers from other stakes as well.

[ymepointer]

Karen, you will need to cross register that pointer if you haven't yet with the AKC. I would suggest two kennels in the NW that run AF pointers in AKC events.....Rich Matske's Tuxedo kennels in Onnalaska and Sauvie Island Kennels in Portland. Tim and Angela Shilleriff are very knowledgable as is Rich. You might also consider joining the Cascade pointer club...a pointer specific breed club in the NW....I am not sure whether it is still in existence but I think it is. Good luck with that little pointer bitch, She should do real well if she is as nice as I remember her being when I was at Jon's house. As always...we need pictures

http://www.americanpointerclub.org/regionalClubs.php

http://tuxedokennels.com/

http://www.sikennels.com/

[k2k]

Yep, I did register w/ the AKC. Surprisingly painless!

Dogirl, I am getting some great advice, and I can see what you mean. Right now all we're after is the experience and getting our feet wet. The puppy stake is first, and I will be checking to see if they'll be planting birds. Seems that most people are saying they don't, tho.

Karen

[ymepointer]

Most if not all NWFTC clubs don't plant in there puppy stakes but it will be noted on the premium I believe if they do. you can go here to find out.

http://pets.groups.yahoo.com/group/nwftc/files/

[hustonmc]

If that pup is anything like it's litter mates I wouldn't be worried about planted birds if the trial did have them. I imagine it'd be a cold day in heck if she took a bird out, your not running a shorthair Good luck to you, excited to she how she performs.

[dan v]

Realize that while not many clubs release birds for the puppy stake, that doesn't mean the dog won't be run on a portion of a course that has had birds released on it.

Ideally, on a single course trial, the OP is run first on a clean course with no birds released.

Try Trena Cardwell at www.chukarhillkennel.com near Ellensburg.

[slistoe]

Good point by Wyndancer. Around here there are no birds released for puppy, but it is typically run on the last stake of the trial. There are birds all over the place and that makes for out of control puppies. Not a good deal. I know of at least 2 people who refuse to judge puppy stakes anymore because the good dogs don't finish the course and they are left with placing the left overs.

[GrayDawg]

Scott,
Help me out here- why don't the 'good dogs' finish the course in puppy stakes where birds are encountered?

Rob

I know of at least 2 people who refuse to judge puppy stakes anymore because the good dogs don't finish the course and they are left with placing the left overs.

[RayGubernat]

GrayDawg -

I don't want to answer for Scott, but it just could be that the "good" dogs that were running and hunting like you want to see a youngster do, got into some weak flying tame quail, chased one down and pounced on it. Puppies will do that...especially the ones with a burning desire to find birds... you know...the "good " ones. If the handler has any intention of continuing to trial this dog beyond puppy stakes, they would go to the dog, separate them from the bird and pick their dog up and put it in harness to limit the damage to what has already occurred and to let the youngster know that what they did was not acceptable.

The dogs that are left in the stake may not have sufficient drive or desire to allow them to get into that kind of trouble or are already under such tight control that they would not consider doing something without the handler's permission.

That might be what Scott was referring to.

Different folks look for different things in a dog. In a puppy, I want to see unbridled enthusiasm, a certain recklessness and , yes...I want to see that burning desire to find birds. I want to see a dog that looks good on the ground and looks like they are having all the fun in the world. I want to see a puppy that is torn between staying with its handler and getting out there and having fun. I want to see the staying with the handler side win out a bit and the "I want to hunt" side win out a bit also. I could care less what it looks like on a bird. That is what derby stakes are for.

But that is just me.

RayG

[Greg Jennings]

IMHO: Puppies + Pen Birds = Train Wreck + Issues Down The Road

I *think* that AKC trials that put down birds in the puppy stake are required to call it out in the premium.

That leaves birds from previous stakes and possibly flown over from adjacent courses. About that, you just have to ask and be confident enough to pull the dog should things change, as they sometimes do.

In general, if something isn't good for our dog, we should pick them up. Don't be greedy, don't be afraid of making waves, pick up the dog. It's your dog and no one, not even the judge of the stake can tell you what to do. I've been guilty of this in the past and have paid dearly for it.

FWIW,

Greg J.

[gunner]

The term gyp or gyppy is an old time mid-south or southern term for a young female canine. Usually meaning a maiden or unbred animal. Southern houndsmen probably use the term more than most other dog folk.

[Wildweeds]

It ain't only puppies that can be trainwrecked with less than desireable habits,A dog I own was pointing and holding wild birds while hunting excellent,was no longer chasing and she was stopping on wild flushes,One derby season ruined her for life,you see she much preferred to chase,once she got to chase again in the derby stakes it was all downhill from there.She was broke out the following year but resented it because the thrill is in the chase for her.She points birds great,is staunch till you get 20 feet from her then she will circle and repoint.If I get after her with just voice she will say "Not playing your way" and run off to hunt some more,blinking the birds she just pointed.I know I learned a great deal from trialing so far and that is.................don't run em till they are broke dogs.I'll never enter another derby again, the 2 points are not even close to being worth it.The catching poor flying birds and chasing is a hard hurdle to overcome once the damage has been done.I'll continue to do what has worked well for me,hunt them on wild birds and kill the ones they point.

IMHO: Puppies + Pen Birds = Train Wreck + Issues Down The Road

I *think* that AKC trials that put down birds in the puppy stake are required to call it out in the premium.

That leaves birds from previous stakes and possibly flown over from adjacent courses. About that, you just have to ask and be confident enough to pull the dog should things change, as they sometimes do.

In general, if something isn't good for our dog, we should pick them up. Don't be greedy, don't be afraid of making waves, pick up the dog. It's your dog and no one, not even the judge of the stake can tell you what to do. I've been guilty of this in the past and have paid dearly for it.

FWIW,

Greg J.

[slistoe]

Ray has one part of it. The other one is when you have good flying birds and the dog takes the bird for a ride right out of the course to the back. On the way back they encounter another bird and take it for a ride some other direction. By the time the handler gets the dog around to the front the stake is over and the dog has not been in judgement in front of the judge. In the mean time, dogs with little hunt, little bird drive and and screwed down to tight are all the judges have to pick from. When you get a dog that loves to hunt, loves its birds and drives hard on both, either the dog takes themselves out of judgement or the handler does.

[Casper]

Back to the original topic.

Karen when I started with FTing I learned by watching, riding (every brace), and asking questions. If you express enough interest in it someone will take you under their wing and help guide you through FTing. Not only will they be your mentor they will become a friend. That in itself is worth more than those ribbons. If you have access to a horse some judges will actually let you ride up along side them so you can ask a question about something that just took place. I had one judge that pulled me along side to point out things a dog was doing and about to do. Things I wouldnt have noticed without him pointing it out. He has become a very good friend and mentor.

If I were you I wouldnt listen to any of this talk about peoples opinions regarding the stake. It will only confuse you and possibly frustrate you. IMO when there is a trial in your neck of the woods enter your pup and go have a good time. Just keep in mind that when all is said and done you are not disappointed in your dog or the fact you didnt get a ribbon. Go meet people. You will see them sitting around their trailers watching over their dogs. Go introduce yourself and ask any questions you might have.

Go have fun and hopefully we will cross paths in the future

[ezzy333]

Back to the original topic.

Karen when I started with FTing I learned by watching, riding (every brace), and asking questions. If you express enough interest in it someone will take you under their wing and help guide you through FTing. Not only will they be your mentor they will become a friend. That in itself is worth more than those ribbons. If you have access to a horse some judges will actually let you ride up along side them so you can ask a question about something that just took place. I had one judge that pulled me along side to point out things a dog was doing and about to do. Things I wouldnt have noticed without him pointing it out. He has become a very good friend and mentor.

If I were you I wouldnt listen to any of this talk about peoples opinions regarding the stake. It will only confuse you and possibly frustrate you. IMO when there is a trial in your neck of the woods enter your pup and go have a good time. Just keep in mind that when all is said and done you are not disappointed in your dog or the fact you didnt get a ribbon. Go meet people. You will see them sitting around their trailers watching over their dogs. Go introduce yourself and ask any questions you might have.

Go have fun and hopefully we will cross paths in the future

Couldn't agree more.

Ezzy

[k2k]

The beauty of this discussion is that there are so many sides to ways to do or not do things. You all can't imagine how much I have learned already!

But the bottom line in the puppy stakes is for me and the pup to learn and to have fun doing it. She is/will be primarlly a hunting dog. The money tree in the back yard died a couple of years ago.....

Thanks, Casper. If you're ever up this way to a trial, maybe I'll see you there.

Best,

Karen

[Rich Heaton]

If you express enough interest in it someone will take you under their wing and help guide you through FTing.

Say no more little buddy,,,,, been a pleasure showing you the ways of the world.

Karen in order for the mentoring process to start might be better if ya post up some pics,,, and go ahead a throw one in with the pup while your at it.

[GrayDawg]

Ray,
Thanks for your response- I see your point. The other side of the coin for the judges who feel all the "good" ones have been picked up (for catching poor flyers) or lost (for chasing good flyers) is to with hold 1st & 2nd place....... no? Don't get me wrong, I agree with those who feel that birds don't need to be on the course of a puppy stake at a Field Trial. But in reality, *stuff* happens. Hopefully, a trainer isn't going to wait until the dog is 15 months & 1 day to start reminding their young charge what their manners should be around birds! As for what you are looking for when you judge a puppy stake- I like that too and will be presenting the dog below for your consideration in New Jersey next month.

Take care,

Rob Hopkins

GrayDawg -

I don't want to answer for Scott, but it just could be that the "good" dogs that were running and hunting like you want to see a youngster do, got into some weak flying tame quail, chased one down and pounced on it. Puppies will do that...especially the ones with a burning desire to find birds... you know...the "good " ones. If the handler has any intention of continuing to trial this dog beyond puppy stakes, they would go to the dog, separate them from the bird and pick their dog up and put it in harness to limit the damage to what has already occurred and to let the youngster know that what they did was not acceptable.

The dogs that are left in the stake may not have sufficient drive or desire to allow them to get into that kind of trouble or are already under such tight control that they would not consider doing something without the handler's permission.

That might be what Scott was referring to.

Different folks look for different things in a dog. In a puppy, I want to see unbridled enthusiasm, a certain recklessness and , yes...I want to see that burning desire to find birds. I want to see a dog that looks good on the ground and looks like they are having all the fun in the world. I want to see a puppy that is torn between staying with its handler and getting out there and having fun. I want to see the staying with the handler side win out a bit and the "I want to hunt" side win out a bit also. I could care less what it looks like on a bird. That is what derby stakes are for.

But that is just me.

RayG

[k2k]

Karen in order for the mentoring process to start might be better if ya post up some pics,,, and go ahead a throw one in with the pup while your at it.

Ha!

If I could get the pup to stand still for a second out in the field., I'd sure post a pic of her. God knows I tried this weekend! I think you'd like her. As for the toher pic, can I just send you one of my truck?

[glk7243]

Karen in order for the mentoring process to start might be better if ya post up some pics,,, and go ahead a throw one in with the pup while your at it.

Ha!

If I could get the pup to stand still for a second out in the field., I'd sure post a pic of her. God knows I tried this weekend! I think you'd like her. As for the toher pic, can I just send you one of my truck?

Now that's funny. I think she got ya Rich.

[dan v]

Hopefully, a trainer isn't going to wait until the dog is 15 months & 1 day to start reminding their young charge what their manners should be around birds!

It's not that the trainer is going to wait, it's that the smart dogs get wise to the game. They come to understand there are two sets of rules, one set for training and the other set for an event....at which they can't be corrected.

I think puppy stakes are all well and good. The youngsters need to learn how to travel, interact with strange bracemates, live on a chain. But you as the handler need to remember an important thing....let no harm come to your dog.

Now "harm" can come in various fashions.

The "harm" of a 6 month puppy catching a bird is quite different than a 20 month old dog.

The other more sinister harm can come from the bracemate. Rough play can do long term damage...and if your dog is at the wrong end of it, you'll wonder two things. Why the bracemate didn't pick their dog up, and why the judges didn't order the bracemate up.

Guess what...it's YOUR job to protect your dog...don't rely on others. Yeah, you paid your money...but is the $30-40 worth the damage...long term?

And if your dog is the exuberant one dishing it out?.... he finds out that a FT is where he can rough house.

[GrayDawg]

I would find it both disheartening & disturbing that a judge at a field trial wouldn't order up a dog that was clearly interfering with and/or intimidating it's bracemate. At least in the AKC format, the rules clearly state something to the affect "the dog must be afforded the opportunity to demonstrate their abilities to meet the criteria established/required for the stake in which they are entered." Any dog that attacks, continues to roll or intimidate it's bracemate is clearly- at the very least, compromising this opportunity or at worst, denying the opportunity altogether for a dog to demostrate such field acumen. Is the purpose of a FT to find the most aggresive dog or the dog with the biggest run who hunts with a sense of forward purpose from objective to objective? I certainly hope it's the latter and that dogs with unruly manners towards their bracemate would be ordered up by at least one judge- if not, both.

Rob

The other more sinister harm can come from the bracemate. Rough play can do long term damage...and if your dog is at the wrong end of it, you'll wonder two things. Why the bracemate didn't pick their dog up, and why the judges didn't order the bracemate up.

Guess what...it's YOUR job to protect your dog...don't rely on others. Yeah, you paid your money...but is the $30-40 worth the damage...long term?

And if your dog is the exuberant one dishing it out?.... he finds out that a FT is where he can rough house.

[dan v]

Rob,

Sounds pretty easy doesn't it.

But what you deem aggressive intimidation, may not be to others. Let's say I'm judging, and in the past I've had a puppy roughed up by it's bracemate which caused problems, so I'm looking. Now you turn your dog loose, it and the bracemate shoulder bump for some 30 yards and maybe posture. I order your dog up right then, right there. You gonna be OK with that?

There is a bunch of, "well, puppies will be puppies."

Get me a definition of "puppy play" and "puppy aggression", and then see how fast the first can become the second.

I'm not defending it, nor do I like it...as I feel that the sport should not be in the business of ruining somebody's prospect. But there's a fine line to be walked as a judge. Order them up too quick and you become the (insert profanity)...let it go 30 seconds too long...and you become the (insert profanity).

[GrayDawg]

Daniel/Rebecca (not sure who I'm replying to),
That's why Judges are asked to be judges, right? They have seen hundreds- if not thousands of dogs down while at trials and/or training.
They have trained dogs to high levels of success in the Field Trial arena. They know the difference between "Puppy Play" (between two willing participants) and an act of aggression where one dog is clearly giving it & the other is an unwilling recipient. I'm not a Field Trial Judge, but I am an AKC Hunt Test Judge and I know it when I see it.......... and I wouldn't hesitate to order a dog up in a Hunt Test who was interfering with or intimidating (via aggression) it's bracemate. And Hunt Tests aren't even competitve events as the dogs are judged soley against a standard rather than against a standard & each other as are Field Trials.

I can't imagine that a measley Hunt Test judge like myself can easily distinguish between puppy play and aggression/repeated interference and an experienced Field Trial judge couldn't. Every FT judge I've come to know (run under them, marshalled for them, shot for them in call backs) has been a very experienced dog person who has been around the block once or twice. I can't imagine that they would sit back and not take immediate action, in a puppy stake no less, if they even SMELLED interference/aggression by one of the dogs presented to them for consideration.

Rob

[CherrystoneWeims]

Rob,

I've seen some judges up your way who didn't have a clue when a dog was stalking its bracemate..........

[ymepointer]

I have seen a dog roughed up pretty good in a regional futurity and the judges just left the offender down and did nothing more than ask the offending handler to try to go in a slighly different direction on course to get some space between the dogs... :roll:

[GrayDawg]

I have seen a dog roughed up pretty good in a regional futurity and the judges just left the offender down and did nothing more than ask the offending handler to try to go in a slighly different direction on course to get some space between the dogs... :roll:

That's a reportable offense to the AKC Performance Events Chairperson imho..................

[Rich Heaton]

Wow guys,,,, quite a picture your painting for poor Karen here. If your around long enough sure you will see some "stuff",,, but is that the norm No. If it is the norm I would find a different bunch of trial guys to hang with. I have been to my share of trials and never seen a fight or "rough housing" during a brace. To me if a dog has that on his mind instead of hunting,,,, he ain't much of a dog and if the handler can't recognize it,,, tsk tsk. I have seen it out training though,,, shortly after the handler gave him more than his share of something else to think about. Nip that in the butt before it gets to be a problem.
If nothing else Karen,,, this is a great reason why you need a mentor,,, somebody to train with and for your dog to run with to get used to all kind of weird antics that happen at a trial. One thing you read here on the forum is "my dog is shut down by other handlers",,,, of course my logic says,,, you should have been training with other handlers so at a trial its not the first time your dog has heard it.

Still didn't catch what part of Washington you are from,,,,, I'm going to be in Sunnyside for 2 weeks in March trialing,, you oughtta come watch.

[GrayDawg]

To me if a dog has that on his mind instead of hunting,,,, he ain't much of a dog and if the handler can't recognize it,,, tsk tsk.

Rich,
Thanks........... I guess that's what I was trying to say in a very roundabout way. I just didn't see alot of it back when I was involved with trials, I did run into a bunch of nice folks who were very experienced dog people though. Honestly, I can't recall a judge who wasn't deserving of the assignment.

Karen,
Go to a trial and don't be afraid to enter your dog once you feel you know what's going on.

Rob

[dan v]

If your around long enough sure you will see some "stuff",,, but is that the norm No. If it is the norm I would find a different bunch of trial guys to hang with. I have been to my share of trials and never seen a fight or "rough housing" during a brace.

Rich,

I've been to a fair amount of them as well....and is it common? Certainly not, have I seen it happen? Most definitely.

As a judge I can count on one hand the number of times I've picked up a dog for interference. And have only written one dog up for fighting.

I did watch at a GSCA NAFC stake watch one brace leave the line, roar to front until they got out about 200 yards....and then had a pretty good dustup. The NAFC dog came from the brace.

The point that I was trying to make in my original reply was, the handler needs to be aware of what may be detrimental to their dog. They have an obligation to protect their dog.

Dan

[GrayDawg]

I found the rule I was tring to cite in a previous post, this comes directly out of

Field Trial Rules and Standard Procedure for Pointing Breeds
Procedure 2-B Judges
Amended November 2007



Given this rule, all that is required is a judge with the stones to enforce it.
No big interpretation needed- interference is interference. Aggression/attacks is just another
form of interference.

Rob

[CherrystoneWeims]

I'm in agreement with Wyndancer. I haven't seen it happen a lot but I have seen it happen. Heck I even had it happen to a bitch of mine (by another bitch)! She was flattened and rolled and this was broke dogs!

The pro-handlers are much more aware of what is going on and will pick their dog up in a heartbeat but I sometimes see amateurs that are oblivious as to what is happening. That's what happened with the dog who was hunting his bracemate. The bracemate's handler was a pro who picked up her dog so that he wouldn't start bad habits.

Some judges are more tolerant than others. You do have to protect your dog!

[dan v]

I'm going to be in Sunnyside for 2 weeks in March trialing,, you oughtta come watch.

Rich,

Are you going to be running out from the bull pen? I hear that Rick had quite a brush fire across the road.

Anyway, if you see Rick & Sharon, tell'em Dan Voss said howdy.

[Rich Heaton]

Dan,,,,, Yea I heard that too,,,, we do run there from the Bull pens. I heard the fire skirted a little bit of the area that we run,,, kinda of between Amy Andersons house and the gun club,,, but pretty reliable reports say its no biggy from our trial prospective.

And I'll tell them you said HI.