Breeding...? Father X Daughter

[Dave Quindt]

This is some thread, I don’t know of any father-daughter or mother-son that has really produced, most pups either went as pets or put down, and I do know of a number that have tried it with little or no success, personally although I do believe that you should always breed to improve, I morally would not do it.

.

I don't think I would do this but...... NFC/FCAFC Microdot Look this dogs ped up.....!

Tom, your missing the point. It's not really about whether or not that type of breeding has worked, but about for every time it produces a dog like Micro Dot, you don't hear about the 1 or 5 or 10 or 20 times it produces dogs with temperament issues or bad bites or testes issues or 30lb females & 85lb males with pink noses. No one talks about the breedings that fail; those get swept under the rug.

Of the full brother/sister breeding that I'm familiar with there was a female they used to call "Lion Head" because she had a monsterous head on her. That was the kind of wierd stuff that got out publicly; I can only imagine what quietly was disposed of. And this was from a pedigree of far more proven dogs than what you are doing with; you're dealing with some stuff that has never really shown to linebreed very well and you are talking about inbreeding it.

I guess I don't understand what you think you are going to get out of this, other than being able to say you did it. To me, that's not worth taking the chance of having a litter than needs to be destroyed.

JMO,
Dave

[Dave Quindt]

GPblitz.... your Heartbreaker pup is a good lookin little dude!!!!! Nice ped also..... One heck of an example of linebreeding/in-breeding don't ya say?

The pup is the product of a complete outcross!

[Yawallac]

No one talks about the breedings that fail; those get swept under the rug.

Those breedings happen with outcrosses as well. :roll:

The sensationalism in this thread is really hysterical. "Lion Heads"

....oh yeah, not to mention you might get a BAD BITE!!!!! OMG!!!! :roll: :roll:

[TAK]

Tom, your missing the point. It's not really about whether or not that type of breeding has worked, but about for every time it produces a dog like Micro Dot, you don't hear about the 1 or 5 or 10 or 20 times it produces dogs with temperament issues or bad bites or testes issues or 30lb females & 85lb males with pink noses. No one talks about the breedings that fail; those get swept under the rug. I don't think I am, I was just pointing out a simple time that it had worked.....

Of the full brother/sister breeding that I'm familiar with there was a female they used to call "Lion Head" because she had a monsterous head on her. That was the kind of wierd stuff that got out publicly; I can only imagine what quietly was disposed of. Now that is the stuff I am looking for! Tell me more about the breedings that you have seen and what become of them. I can recall the last time we chatted you was high on some dog out of Clown lines, them are the lines I like so I want to know more of Y you say linebreeding/in-breeding Clown has never worked. Or should I focus on the Rusty side and go that way? Tell me Y, just do say that there are far better dogs out there than yours that are much more proven that did not do well at it, tell me WHY!I guess I don't understand what you think you are going to get out of this, other than being able to say you did it. To me, that's not worth taking the chance of having a litter than needs to be destroyed.Well I am trying to get me pups that I like, and if they make the cut that others like! Maybe it will be shooting birds over them, or maybe even winning trials, but it is for me, OK and my buddy wants a pup out of my Clown also

JMO,
Dave

Now tell me what you know, I am sure you know a lot. Check your blood line preference, and trial format at the door, and tell me what good and bad you have seen with your eyes!!!!!

[TAK]

GPblitz.... your Heartbreaker pup is a good lookin little dude!!!!! Nice ped also..... One heck of an example of linebreeding/in-breeding don't ya say?

The pup is the product of a complete outcross!

Sorry... War of words.... I will explain myself that much more in detail....

GSblitz, It appears that your new pups sire and dam are products of linebreeding/in-breeding.

[TAK]

Right on!!! That's what I shared i a earlier post. My miss fortune by doing this type of breeding that gets swept under the rug and dicussed here it is again.

Years ago I did a breeding mother to son.(English Setter) Lines said to be clean. (There are no cleans line) The result was 3 pups with extra toes. 1pup no anus, 1 pup with one nostril, 1 developed HD, and 1pup was a great bird dog. Still alive at 14. 5 pups culled at birth, the HD pup was put down at 6 hips were so bad. I would never go that close again

Now are not siblings running the same blood in the veins? I see it as more of a chance of having what you had happen as a for sure you will have problems than maybe you would have problems....

Now a Father Daughter breeding is Half. There is an entire other line on the bottom.

[Yawallac]

Years ago I did a breeding mother to son.(English Setter) Lines said to be clean. (There are no cleans line) The result was 3 pups with extra toes. 1pup no anus, 1 pup with one nostril, 1 developed HD, and 1pup was a great bird dog. Still alive at 14. 5 pups culled at birth, the HD pup was put down at 6 hips were so bad. I would never go that close again

Obviously, the line wasn't clean. This isn't hard to figure out people.

Tak, the breeding that you are considering is so common in Pointers that it isn't even worth discussing. Just do it.

[Yawallac]

Ross would I be wrong to say I haven't Seen a father x daughter breeding on your website in the last couple yrs.

You wouldn't be wrong to say that you haven't seen litters bred like that on our website because we don't sell those pups. We grow them out.

Nor have I heard your own personably experiance in doing such a breeding. Do you do this type of breeding?

Of course we do this type of breeding. The most recent was breeding our Duke dog to our Girl dog. Duke is the son of Girl's littermate brother. So genetically, it was very similar to a Mother x Son breeding. The pups were very nice with no culls and they are breaking out easily. Extremely intelligent and biddable litter.

Here are a few of the pups. Almost like a cookie cutter of each other.

Belle


Rex


Johnny

[ezzy333]

Every breed and every line within a breed was established by inbreeding. And it was a lot more severe than just one breeding of father/daughter or mother/son. Since it is much faster and cheaper we did a lot of work with rabbits and all of the best ones are bred that way and then those babies bred back again and then you go out of your line to find what you can determine is lacking in your breeding and then do it again. I know people who are breeding lab mice and they have been strictly inbred for many generations to the point that all of them are almost identical. That is what happens with any animal.

Inbreeding does not improve what you have but strictly strengthens it, good as well as bad so be sure to start with good individuals. Keep your pick of the pups and find an out cross to breed to that will improve the weakest points of your dogs and then breed the best of those pups back into your line. You will end up producing litters with great uniformity and with gradual improvement as you breed further down the line.

There can be occasional problems show up but remember those problems were already in your dogs and the inbreeding just identified which ones should be culled from the breeding pool. But inbreeding does not produce faults, it just lets some of them surface that your dogs have had already. I don't think you gain much from brother/sister mating so I would stay away from that but the line breeding of generation to generation as you move forward can be a very solid way to go. That is what many people do only not quite as close when they base their breeding on a certain dog of the past. But after several generations of that they are usually able to sort out the ones carrying faults and they gain the uniformity that lets them predict what their pups will be in both type and field ability that has bet set and strengthened with their breeding.

Ezzy

[ElhewPointer]

There can be occasional problems show up but remember those problems were already in your dogs and the inbreeding just identified which ones should be culled from the breeding pool. But inbreeding does not produce faults, it just lets some of them surface that your dogs have had already. I don't think you gain much from brother/sister mating so I would stay away from that but the line breeding of generation to generation as you move forward can be a very solid way to go. That is what many people do only not quite as close when they base their breeding on a certain dog of the past. But after several generations of that they are usually able to sort out the ones carrying faults and they gain the uniformity that lets them predict what their pups will be in both type and field ability that has bet set and strengthened with their breeding.

Ezzy

Ch. Erin's Bad River was produces from littermates. I've seen him and i'll take a kennel full just like him!

[dan v]

Now tell me what you know, I am sure you know a lot. Check your blood line preference, and trial format at the door, and tell me what good and bad you have seen with your eyes!!!!!

You're kidding right?

Dave, and surely others in the breed and in other breeds, have gained the confidence of people in the know. They get the inside scoop by a trust that is earned, and also that the knowledge will not be put out the interwebz randomly. See, Dave wants to get more of the scoop, he can't burn the source of the knowledge.

He, like most that have the inside track, will talk in vague generalities....never to point the finger at a specific person or dog.

Dan

[TAK]

Now tell me what you know, I am sure you know a lot. Check your blood line preference, and trial format at the door, and tell me what good and bad you have seen with your eyes!!!!!

You're kidding right?

Dave, and surely others in the breed and in other breeds, have gained the confidence of people in the know. They get the inside scoop by a trust that is earned, and also that the knowledge will not be put out the interwebz randomly. See, Dave wants to get more of the scoop, he can't burn the source of the knowledge.

He, like most that have the inside track, will talk in vague generalities....never to point the finger at a specific person or dog.

Dan

No... I am not kidding. I'm not asking for anyone pin numbers, just what they have seen and learned is all? :roll:

[Prairie Hunter]

I like the thought that he'd like to have 2 to 4 pups- what are you going to do if she has 13

Well I will have to build me some more kennels! But this is an AI thing and most times litter numbers are lower. One reason I say such a small number I am not trying to sale the pups. I want to keep as many as possible and have a few select friends that will take a few each if needed.

Tak,

Don't count on AI producing small litters. Three of my friends had their female bred by surgical AI. One bitch had 11 pups, and the other 2 had 12 pups. I think it depends more on the bitch than if the breed ing is done live or by AI.

Phillip

[TAK]

Tak,

Don't count on AI producing small litters. Three of my friends had their female bred by surgical AI. One bitch had 11 pups, and the other 2 had 12 pups. I think it depends more on the bitch than if the breed ing is done live or by AI.

Phillip

Ya I know but I can wish.... As I am not wanting that many, I will be prepaired for that also.

[Prairie Hunter]

Check out these videos on inbreeding/pedigreed breeding mainly speaks of miniature breeds but think you'll find them interesting might show ya some traits you may find when considering doing such a close breeding I strung them togeather on a page as when put together they form one long movie
http://www.highcalibergsp.com/Breeding.html

Wasn't this from a documentary put together by an animal rights group? Sometimes they tend to distort and exaggerate the facts to support their position.

Also, most of what they showed was about breeding for looks instead of performance, like we do with our dogs. If you take the example of the German Shepherds with the rear leg problems, then compare them to working German Shepherds, you will see a definite difference in conformation. Working shepherds do not suffer from the same problems.

The problems cited in the videos come more from breeding for a certain look than from linebreeding.

Phillip

[highcotton]

One of the best litters we ever raised came from an accidental breeding of a littermate brother and sister. We kept all the pups in our breeders circle until thay were trained out. They were consistent and all made above average bird dogs. I am tempted to try it again.

[TAK]

I want to thank everyone for the information that they have either listed here, or PM'd me with. I will keep searching to make sure I will get what I want out of this......

[Casper]

Is it possible that the reason there isnt much close breeding going on in breeds like the GSP is the fact the most of those people are to afraid to do it? They just dont want to invest the time, money, and heart ache that goes along with a breeding program like that. It sure seems like the Pointer breeders like Whele, Miller, etc. put in the time and money and heart ache and were able to produce animals that are far superior than dogs of the past. You sure dont see many if any pointer breeders worrying about getting hips, elbows, eyes, etc. tested. Maybe that is why Competitive Lab breeders dont breed close cause they know there breeding programs would fall apart with the amount of genetic issues that are in the breed.

TAK are you trying to reproduce your 'ol boy or are you just wanting to use him as your foundation for your own breeding program? If that is the case, using him as your foundation, than I say do it. There is only one way to find out if you are going to get what you are looking for.

[Prairie Hunter]

Whenever this topic comes up, the detractors of linebreeding alway point to the possible health and genetic problems that “may” occur. However, they fail mention that there are plenty of out cross breedings that produce defective dogs. Those aren’t talked about, and are just considered breedings that didn’t work. Outcrossing is not blamed for the problems. In fact, all of the dogs I have ever owned that had health problems (epilepsy, kidney problems, entropion, cancer at an early age, etc.) and severe temperament issues have been products of outcross breedings.

It was mentioned that there is very little inbreeding or linebreeding in the FT lab community. However, there is also a high incidence of EIC among FT labs. Recessive genetic traits like EIC are easily, and unwittingly, passed on through outcrossing because the recessive trait may be masked for many generations of outcrossing. However, at some point, 2 carriers get bred, and some of the resulting puppies are born with the genetic disorder. By then, it can be very difficult to pinpoint the origin of the problem, or to determine how widespread the recessive trait is. The good news is that there is now a test to identify EIC carriers that will hopefully keep carriers from being bred to each other.

Lupoid Dermatosis in GSPs presents the same kinds of transmittal issues when outcrossing is done without knowing the recessive trait is present. When linebreeding, detrimental traits usually show up much sooner within the line, and gives breeders a chance to eradicate the problem before it becomes widely distributed throughout the blood line or the breed.

If you plan to start a linebreeding program, you have to be prepared for the recessives to pop to the surface. The closer you breed, the more dramatic the effect will probably be. You have to be prepared to do some culling. However, if you are working with lines that have already been “cleaned up” by another competent breeder, the chances of seeing severe genetic problems when you breed tightly are greatly reduced. Once the negative recessive traits have been eliminated from a line, they can never come back unless you outcross to dogs that carry it.

The fact is, there are positives and negatives to both breeding approaches (linebreeding vs. out crossing). If done correctly, I would not be afraid of linebreed tightly.

Phillip

[snips]

Check out these videos on inbreeding/pedigreed breeding mainly speaks of miniature breeds but think you'll find them interesting might show ya some traits you may find when considering doing such a close breeding I strung them togeather on a page as when put together they form one long movie
http://www.highcalibergsp.com/Breeding.html

Wasn't this from a documentary put together by an animal rights group? Sometimes they tend to distort and exaggerate the facts to support their position.

Also, most of what they showed was about breeding for looks instead of performance, like we do with our dogs. If you take the example of the German Shepherds with the rear leg problems, then compare them to working German Shepherds, you will see a definite difference in conformation. Working shepherds do not suffer from the same problems.

The problems cited in the videos come more from breeding for a certain look than from linebreeding.

Phillip

Thats what I thought. Just like any animal rights video, finds the worst of the worst to film then plasters it everywhere to sway people toward their view. Just like the Nightly News had a few days ago, animal rights video of abuse of milk cows.....

[dudleysmith]

This tight line breeding has went on alot more than most realize , the catch though is that on paper they are not related, in order to sell the pups as most are too afraid of tight line breeding.

How many would breed littermates of littermates??

[Prairie Hunter]

Brenda,

The animal rights movement is powerful in the U.K. and most of Europe. They have managed to ban the use of e-collars, and the docking of ears and tails in many countries. I had some on-line discussions a year or so ago with some dog breeders and trainers from the U.K. about the ban on docking tails and ears on dogs. There were some animal rights people on the board, and you should have seen how they twisted the facts to make it sound like the practice was very inhumane. They called it “mutilation” and amounted to torture. They even tried to say that some puppies are so traumatized by it that it permanently affects their temperament and physiological development. When I asked for proof, of course they had none. All they could say was, “we believe” that it happens.

Phillip

[birddogger]

"Thats what I thought. Just like any animal rights video, finds the worst of the worst to film then plasters it everywhere to sway people toward their view. Just like the Nightly News had a few days ago, animal rights video of abuse of milk cows..... brenda"
snips
GDF Junkie


Brenda, you are so right. These people will deceive, lie or anything else they can do to try and indoctrinate the public, and in the mojority of cases, it is never questioned. It is so frustrating, these people make me sick!!! BTW, it is not only with the animal rights issue, it happens with lots of other issues also. They are all the same, holier than thou people.

Charlie

[briarpatch]

Agreed the video is a one sided view but thought it had some interesting points even from one sided views some can dig out some truths if it is looked at objectively perhaps some misinterpreted the idea behind the posting of the videos..

I aint no expert on the subject of breeding (I aint never even bred before) or of a breeding that close, but just from what I have read the main idea behind people who have successfully done it in the past was to bring forward genetic disorders or traits and eradicate them from the line, this is not a short term endeavor in most instances and generally takes severe culling sometimes of entire litters and several extremely close breeding's like father to daughter or sister to brother to have success and to completely raise several generations to make sure the dogs brought forward in the line is indeed clean of any abnormalities for if one carrying the higher number of bad genes brought forward was mated chances are future offspring would display the unwanted traits if it were still carrying those traits. So would this be practical for most breeders today highly doubtful most breeders today wouldn't have the room to keep several generations of dogs required to get the desired outcome of a line free from genetic disorders or genes, not to mention breeding this close in relatives generally leads to inbreeding depression for smaller litters smaller dogs and sterile dogs so to continue on the path would eventually lead to the end of a line as it would become extinct from sterility, if never outcrossed..
Why because mother nature never intended for animals to breed that close for any amount of time and survive it just aint natural. If you are indeed are in it for the long haul have plenty of room to keep several generations of dogs and think this is what you need to do by all means continue on the path of eliminating out the breed of genetic defects however there are plenty of great studs out there and great bitches to breed them to that would result in healthy puppies being thrown with great hunting abilities without the need for such a drastic close up breeding and the destruction of many unhealthy pups that you will more than likely get from such a breeding..If you want the wolf chances are it would be much easier to obtain by using your AI juice in a proven heath tested bitch with similar traits perhaps even from the same line but a little father back in relation to your male and would require very little or no culling and you could still end up with quality dogs or wolves in a dogs clothing if you will.. Also in the modern age we can eliminate genetic defects through science such as hip xrays and health testing we no longer have the need to do such up close breedings to bring out the undesired genes and eliminate them. We can do it by health testing the dogs before mating. Back in the days this was a popular method of ridding a line of defects there were no hips xrays and cone degeneration tests and such were not available so inbreeding very close relatives was the way it was done .
again my views are strictly obtained by me from a limited amount of reading on the subject and watching obviously biased videos
By all means they are your dogs and you know what you want so by all means do as you wish with them..I wish you the best of luck in whatever you decide is best for you and your dogs ..There was an interesting article on this exact type of breeding in the NAVHDA Dec. 09 issue if you can I suggest you get a copy..Although that as well was a biased view as well and you must objectively pick out the parts pertinent to your situation.

[TAK]

BriarPatch great post.... "If you want the wolf chances are it would be much easier to obtain by using your AI juice in a proven heath tested bitch with similar traits perhaps even from the same line but a little father back in relation to your male and would require very little or no culling and you could still end up with quality dogs or wolves in a dogs clothing if you will"

And that very thing is also in the works! I have went close with one of the breedings and have been more than pleased with what ones I have seen. Now my first thought would to have Maddie or Toad bred to a great stud and keep all females from there, and then AI. And that is still on the table.
BUT... there is always a BUT! Information I have been told, given, beat into me is that I have to find the two that most resembles what I want and do it from there!

And you are right. They are mine, I can do what I want with them.... But I am not that type person, I want to have the very best that I can, with as little problems as possible... And that is Y I ask many of you for the opinions.....

I new there would be some shots taken, and I do have some pretty thick skin... But I have giant ears!

[Middlecreek]

Your reasoning for the breeding is sound........ and I realize your were not looking for an ethical go ahead for the breeding from everyone, but rather trying to find out what the quality might be of pups tightly bred within clown lines. Alot of posts are zeroing in on the ethics of it, which because of the "human factor" you will probably never get alot of support. Unless you really understand canine genetics it just sounds "wrong" to most people and beleive me when I say I am far from a genetic expert, but this type of breeding has its place and is necessary at times to improve ones lines. It's alot more common than one might think, there is a GSP for sale on this very forum right now that the sire is a product of a father x daughter breeding!!!! Just my uneducated thoughts.....

[northern cajun]

Well first off to say that inbreeding is bad period is wrong and misinformed.

All i have to say is that you have to know what you have to start with and have good common sense. Yes you will get recessive traits to pair up and get some bad things on the oppisite end of the spectrum you get dominate traits (good ones) that become homozygous. You cull the bad and keep the good yes it is a hard thing to do but it has produced outstanding dogs.


I have a father daughter bred bitch that the litter earned a NA breeders award. None have six toes, bug head etc. the bitches may be a tad small but not by much.
I was killing limits of woodcock over this pup at 6 months i have pictures of her she is nice.


Remember one thing, if you start with crap you get out crap if you start with high quality dogs you get high quaility dogs, it is amazing how few inbred dogs win such a large percentage of stakes.

In addition, the only way to get rid of all the recessive genes is to inbred!!! You have to pair em up and then cull them. But you are just as likely to get a Prepotent sire or blue hen bitch as the Lion headed six toe dogs!!!

Everyone has a different take on breeding but to suggest inbreeding is bad is a partial truth on the flip side it can be amazing as well.

Has no one looked at the german breeding programs? Lets just say that it is a double edge sword and if you know how to use it and properly you wont get cut to often and with a little time can use your dogs as weapons to whoop "bleep" on them non inbred dogs!!!!

I can also tell you of a line of dogs that came from the old moosguard dogs and the niece (IC18) to uncle breeding produce 6 pups the IC was 27% and all finished there MH titles before 11 months of age with 4 finishing before 9 months and the youngest finishing at 7 months 9 days DNA on all of these dogs for 5 generations so no hanky panky. In addition this kennel has the Youngest FC at 14 months she is highly inbred as well in fact she was GSPCA Hunt test dam of the year as was her mother also inbred. So this inbreeding produced in four generations the youngest MH and FC in AKC history any breed and 3 GSPCA hunt test dams of the year. Now tell me again how this inbreeding is not working and not producing high quality dogs?? Inbreeding is a tool not unlike a car if you don't know how to use it it can be dangerous (even if you do) on the other hand if you do use it wisely then you can really speed up the progress and produce prepotent dogs that breed true to type.

remember two things the sire of the sire is the grandsire of the dam this type of inbreeding produces tons of great dogs and the other is straight up mother line breeding stacking the quality bitch on the top and bottom of the pedigree.



Too may people are anthropomorphic!!

[northern cajun]

I stand behind my comments and if you would like I can give multiple examples from many areas should we talk horses?

[lvrgsp]

Arn't the Cajuns inbred as well!!! :roll: Or was that the hillbillys?

That'd be us Billhilly's Howie......

[snips]

I have always heard Father x Daughter was better than Mother x Son (which was what Howie and I did). For the life of me I do not know why, seems like all the same genes.

[adogslife]

Maybe it's the extra X.

adogslife

[scott townsend]

Your reasoning for the breeding is sound........ and I realize your were not looking for an ethical go ahead for the breeding from everyone, but rather trying to find out what the quality might be of pups tightly bred within clown lines. Alot of posts are zeroing in on the ethics of it, which because of the "human factor" you will probably never get alot of support. Unless you really understand canine genetics it just sounds "wrong" to most people and beleive me when I say I am far from a genetic expert, but this type of breeding has its place and is necessary at times to improve ones lines. It's alot more common than one might think, there is a GSP for sale on this very forum right now that the sire is a product of a father x daughter breeding!!!! Just my uneducated thoughts.....

well said , I agree

[ezzy333]

I don't believe you are going to produce deseases from breeding. There might be a weakness that allows cancer like we suspicion in people but I don't see even that in our dogs. With the potential of improvements out weighing the potental problems in my opinion I would do it again with out any qualms.

Ezzy

[postoakshorthairs]

don't believe you are going to produce deseases from breeding. There might be a weakness that allows cancer like we suspicion in people but I don't see even that in our dogs. With the potential of improvements out weighing the potental problems in my opinion I

You don't believe that illnesses like heart , cancer, lung and so on are not genetic. Humans and dog have about the same amount of genes in there genetic make up is my understanding. these genetic illnesses are in humans so why not dogs . genectic is genetics is my understanding. you are not aware of heart problems , cancer, larangal phralisis, of others in dogs. I know of 2 gsp's that died of cancer in the last 3 years. 1 from laranal pharalisis, 1 young dog dropped dead from heart failure right after a hunt test. Think again.

I normally don't have anything intelligent to contribute but I'm in an advanced college patho-physiology class right now so I can fill in a little since this is what i've been researching. Our DNA consists of 46 chromosomes and dogs have 78. Although the numbers differ there has been some recent studies that human and canine cell mutation happens in a similar way, which is allowing some cancer research both directions. All cancer is from mutated DNA in humans. Normally when a cell mutates our body has "checkpoints" that destroys abnormal cells, but when those systems fail, and conditions are right, the cells mutation proliferates and cancer is formed. Most of the "damaged" cells occur after birth but some cells (germ cells) can have genetic mutations that are passed along genetically....ie: retinal cancer, breast cancer, colon cancer. Since the response to kill the mutated DNA that occur after birth is from our immune system, there is an increase in cancers in those with altered immune systems....ie: patients with AIDS develop Kaposi Sarcoma among other cancers. So, if there are genetically predisposed cancers in dogs, like humans, you absolutely could pass them along through breeding. You, in theory, could also pass along diseases of the immune system that make the dogs more susceptible to cancer or other diseases as well.

[TAK]

I normally don't have anything intelligent to contribute but I'm in an advanced college patho-physiology class right now so I can fill in a little since this is what i've been researching. Our DNA consists of 46 chromosomes and dogs have 78. Although the numbers differ there has been some recent studies that human and canine cell mutation happens in a similar way, which is allowing some cancer research both directions. All cancer is from mutated DNA in humans. Normally when a cell mutates our body has "checkpoints" that destroys abnormal cells, but when those systems fail, and conditions are right, the cells mutation proliferates and cancer is formed. Most of the "damaged" cells occur after birth but some cells (germ cells) can have genetic mutations that are passed along genetically....ie: retinal cancer, breast cancer, colon cancer. Since the response to kill the mutated DNA that occur after birth is from our immune system, there is an increase in cancers in those with altered immune systems....ie: patients with AIDS develop Kaposi Sarcoma among other cancers. So, if there are genetically predisposed cancers in dogs, like humans, you absolutely could pass them along through breeding. You, in theory, could also pass along diseases of the immune system that make the dogs more susceptible to cancer or other diseases as well.

Sir... I value your research.... I ask that you keep at it as I had a mother that past from cancer nearly 3 years ago. That is something I do not wish on anyone or anything.

[postoakshorthairs]

Sir... I value your research.... I ask that you keep at it as I had a mother that past from cancer nearly 3 years ago. That is something I do not wish on anyone or anything.

I'm sorry to hear about that. I lost my grandfather to cancer when i was a boy and it's something i'll never forget. There are people much more intelligent than i that are doing the real research thankfully. I wasn't trying to imply i was against the breeding, I was just trying to clarify what another poster stated about 'don't believe you are going to produce diseases from breeding' wasn't exactly true, and used cancer as an example. Good luck with whatever you decide.

[ezzy333]

don't believe you are going to produce deseases from breeding. There might be a weakness that allows cancer like we suspicion in people but I don't see even that in our dogs. With the potential of improvements out weighing the potental problems in my opinion I

You don't believe that illnesses like heart , cancer, lung and so on are not genetic. Humans and dog have about the same amount of genes in there genetic make up is my understanding. these genetic illnesses are in humans so why not dogs . genectic is genetics is my understanding. you are not aware of heart problems , cancer, larangal phralisis, of others in dogs. I know of 2 gsp's that died of cancer in the last 3 years. 1 from laranal pharalisis, 1 young dog dropped dead from heart failure right after a hunt test. Think again.

I normally don't have anything intelligent to contribute but I'm in an advanced college patho-physiology class right now so I can fill in a little since this is what i've been researching. Our DNA consists of 46 chromosomes and dogs have 78. Although the numbers differ there has been some recent studies that human and canine cell mutation happens in a similar way, which is allowing some cancer research both directions. All cancer is from mutated DNA in humans. Normally when a cell mutates our body has "checkpoints" that destroys abnormal cells, but when those systems fail, and conditions are right, the cells mutation proliferates and cancer is formed. Most of the "damaged" cells occur after birth but some cells (germ cells) can have genetic mutations that are passed along genetically....ie: retinal cancer, breast cancer, colon cancer. Since the response to kill the mutated DNA that occur after birth is from our immune system, there is an increase in cancers in those with altered immune systems....ie: patients with AIDS develop Kaposi Sarcoma among other cancers. So, if there are genetically predisposed cancers in dogs, like humans, you absolutely could pass them along through breeding. You, in theory, could also pass along diseases of the immune system that make the dogs more susceptible to cancer or other diseases as well.

This is basically what I was trying to say. You don't breed the disease but might breed the charateristic that allows the disease. But all I have ever witnessed in our dogs appeared to be individual cases and not family oriented. Thats not saying this is right but rather just what I have observed. It is probably an area that needs some research done to determined just what the possibilities are.

Ezzy

[TAK]

Maybe we all could do our own research here????

So for those that know of a dog that has died of cancer... what was the lines? Was it a complete outcross, line breed or in-breed dog? We would have to go back many generations and include the lifestyle of the dog.

I know in humans that it is said that it can be passed from our mother/father this or that... Also our diet? Or habits? Do you smoke? Chew? Eat fatty foods? are you regular? I just happen to know I am a produce of an outcross! But my mother died from cancer, and my dad has half a year from cancer.... yet at 36 I am cancer free... Cross my fingers I stay that way.....
Now as you would guess I have learned a few things about cancer, the types, the POSSIBLE reasons... on and on, but one thing I have learned.....
Ask 15 Doc's and you will get 15 answers!

Now can any of these pups get cancer or carry a gene for it? Sure I would say so it is possible.... But again I can say they will not be a possibility....

[ezzy333]

I have had one dog over the years that had cancer and she was a complete outcross from a stud that was unrelated to my dogs. As far as I know she was the only one to have it but can't swear to that. I did quite a bit of tight inbreeding within my line and never had a problem with any disease or genitic type problem. The one time I did breed litter mates I wasn't real happy with the results and they were dropped from our breeding pool. But the father daughter or mother son seemed to work just like we planned. They do not produce better dogs but do strengthen what you have and improve the uniformity of the pups, But then when we outcrossed those dogs we would normally be able to improve the characteristics we were trying to change. Then we would go back to the line breeding to set those qualities.

Guess we must have been lucky as we just never had a problem with any of those dogs.

Ezzy

[postoakshorthairs]

You don't believe that illnesses like heart , cancer, lung and so on are not genetic. Humans and dog have about the same amount of genes in there genetic make up is my understanding. these genetic illnesses are in humans so why not dogs . genectic is genetics is my understanding. you are not aware of heart problems , cancer, larangal phralisis, of others in dogs. I know of 2 gsp's that died of cancer in the last 3 years. 1 from laranal pharalisis, 1 young dog dropped dead from heart failure right after a hunt test. Think again.[/quote]

I normally don't have anything intelligent to contribute but I'm in an advanced college patho-physiology class right now so I can fill in a little since this is what i've been researching. Our DNA consists of 46 chromosomes and dogs have 78. Although the numbers differ there has been some recent studies that human and canine cell mutation happens in a similar way, which is allowing some cancer research both directions. All cancer is from mutated DNA in humans. Normally when a cell mutates our body has "checkpoints" that destroys abnormal cells, but when those systems fail, and conditions are right, the cells mutation proliferates and cancer is formed. Most of the "damaged" cells occur after birth but some cells (germ cells) can have genetic mutations that are passed along genetically....ie: retinal cancer, breast cancer, colon cancer. Since the response to kill the mutated DNA that occur after birth is from our immune system, there is an increase in cancers in those with altered immune systems....ie: patients with AIDS develop Kaposi Sarcoma among other cancers. So, if there are genetically predisposed cancers in dogs, like humans, you absolutely could pass them along through breeding. You, in theory, could also pass along diseases of the immune system that make the dogs more susceptible to cancer or other diseases as well.[/quote]

This is basically what I was trying to say. You don't breed the disease but might breed the charateristic that allows the disease. But all I have ever witnessed in our dogs appeared to be individual cases and not family oriented. Thats not saying this is right but rather just what I have observed. It is probably an area that needs some research done to determined just what the possibilities are.

Ezzy[/quote]

i guess you can look at it however you choose, but if your passing on genetic defects through breeding you are causing the disease or defect to come through. Diseases like Huntington disease, Cystic Fibrosis, Muscular dystrophy are all caused by genetic defects that are passed from the parents (as unknowing carriers) to their offspring who suffer from the disease. The reason you see it in individual dogs and not the entire litter affected is because there's a percentage of the offspring that will suffer from the disease and a percentage who will become a carrier. If you look at cystic fibrosis....both parents have to be carriers in order for the child to get the disease. The offspring only has a 25 percent chance of getting the disease and a 50 percent chance of becoming a carrier. So, in theory, if those parents have 4 children then 1 would suffer from the disease. The problem is you could have crappy luck and all 4 get it or great luck and none get it. The same would hold true for dogs...if you have a litter of 8 the percentages should show 2 dogs with the disease, but you could have none that show problems and all could become carriers. You could get the same crappy luck from an outcrossing but when you breed in close family lines the percentages of having those latent genes pop up are greater. I'm sure there has been research done but it would take someone a lot smarter than i to interpret it. In the cystic fibrosis example...humans can have genetic testing to see if the parents are carriers and if they are they can have eggs fertilized and then tested to see which ones carry and which one doesn't carry the defect and then have it implanted into the uterus so the baby is born knowing it won't suffer from the disease or be a carrier.

The trouble with having a litter and dispatching of the ones with...bad bites for example.... you disposed of the ones with the obvious condition, but the others could still be carriers and it show up later when they're bred to another carrier.

The whole breeding game is a crap shoot based on percentages. You can certainly help line it up to your advantage or disadvantage but it's all percentages. That's the reason you can breed this FC to that FC and end up with a litter full of average gun dogs or a litter full of FC's. The same reason Michael Jordan has two sons that are average college players and he was one of the greatest of all time...JMO

[Prairie Hunter]

I agree that health problems, or at least the predisposition for health problems, can be passed on genetically in dogs, just like in people. People are not line bred, yet they still manage to pass on those genetic flaws. That’s probably why you see several generations of women in a family that develop the same kinds of breast or uterine cancers, or generations of men that are prone to heart attack or stroke.

I am not a geneticist, but I would think line breeding or inbreeding would cause such genetic flaws or predispositions to come to the front quickly, so they can be addressed. Even if the problems don’t show up until the dogs are 2 – 3 years old, you would still be able to identify there is a problem when you start to see 2 or more dogs from the same litter developing the same problem. Then, you can do whatever is necessary to eradicate that problem from your lines. When you continually outcross, problems may seem random, and you may not be able to tell where the problems come from.

I have no problem with out crossing as a breeding strategy. However, I don’t think it’s the answer to reducing health problems in dogs. Out crossing passes on health problems as well.

[Prairie Hunter]

I was looking at some old pedigrees when I came across the following information that I found interesting:

DC-NFC KAY VD WILDBURG x FC MY RITZIE FER GITUNBURDZ produced DC FEE VD WILDBURG

DC FEE VD WILDBURG was bred back to her sire (DC-NFC KAY VD WILDBURG)

DC FEE VD WILDBURG x DC-NFC KAY VD WILDBURG produced DA-LORS BRANDIE VD WILDBURG, IC= 26.39082

DA-LORS BRANDIE VD WILDBURG went on to produce Hall of Fame dog DC ESSER DUKE VD WILDBURG (ESSER CHICK x DA-LORS BRANDIE VD WILDBURG) and DC Timberdoodles Lancers Answer (NFC Ammertals Lancer D x DA-LORS BRANDIE VD WILDBURG).

Not bad for an inbred dog.

[Yawallac]

DC Timberdoodles Lancers Answer

Back when I was a GSP guy, I competed against that dog. Beautiful solid liver male!

I just found this page. If you're a GSP guy/gal, how cool are these pics!?!?

EDIT: Oops! forgot the link!

http://www.gspca.org/Awards/HOF/dogs.html




.

[Prairie Hunter]

Ross,

Thanks for posting that link. There are certainly some great old dogs on that page.

[vzkennels]

There use to be a page that had the HOF dogs,all the DC Dogs with pics of some,FC dogs with some pics, & a few other listings but it has all disappeared to the HOF dogs on the GSPCA page.
It was very interesting to say the least,it's a shame it's gone.

[lvrgsp]

You mean this page Uncle Ted?...

http://www.gsp-photos.us/index.html

[wems2371]

This is a good site for GSP photos of historical (for lack of a better word ) dogs.

http://www.gsp-photos.us/

[vzkennels]

Yes that's it can find everything there if you go through it all ,just not listed like it used to be under my favorites but I fixed that.
Thanks Chip & Wems

[lvrgsp]

Yes that's it can find everything there if you go through it all ,just not listed like it used to be under my favorites but I fixed that.
Thanks Chip & Wems

Great minds think alike .........Ha...

[wems2371]

I evidently don't read very well...or am just trying to steal your glory Chip! :roll: