Breeding...? Father X Daughter

TAK · Post by **TAK** » Mon Feb 01, 2010 3:19 pm

I am looking for as much information as I can on a Father X Daughter breeding. Pro's/Cons.

The bottom side is of two different lines, so it is not all that close other than the top line.

Let me have it! I can take it also!

bigoak · Post by **bigoak** » Mon Feb 01, 2010 4:12 pm

I would say if both dogs are above average individauls with no physcial faults and decent temperaments-go for it!
I bred PJ Wildfire to one of his best daughters PJ WildFlash and produced fc/afc 2xruch BigOak Spotter...vern

Dirtysteve · Post by **Dirtysteve** » Mon Feb 01, 2010 4:19 pm

What evil scheme are you planning now?

TAK · Post by **TAK** » Mon Feb 01, 2010 4:22 pm

Brandon how do I do one of them fancy dancey peds you have listed there.....

ElhewPointer · Post by **ElhewPointer** » Mon Feb 01, 2010 4:24 pm

Dirtysteve wrote:What evil scheme are you planning now?

I think it is winning.

TAK · Post by **TAK** » Mon Feb 01, 2010 4:26 pm

Clown

Fitz's Clown Around Boo
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SubMariner · Post by **SubMariner** » Mon Feb 01, 2010 4:45 pm

TAK wrote:I am looking for as much information as I can on a Father X Daughter breeding. Pro's/Cons.

The bottom side is of two different lines, so it is not all that close other than the top line.

Let me have it! I can take it also!

Ok... let me say it up front that I am NOT a breeder. However, isn't it bad to breed such closely related individuals? Aren't there are all sorts of hidden recessive traits that become dominant when two closely related critters come together?

vzkennels · Post by **vzkennels** » Mon Feb 01, 2010 5:12 pm

Tom if you are going to breed White Trash to White Trash you are probably going to end up with White Trash.

Busterb · Post by **Busterb** » Mon Feb 01, 2010 5:48 pm

What the heck just breed 'em. They will probably all jump off the bridge anywase!!!

Middlecreek · Post by **Middlecreek** » Mon Feb 01, 2010 6:04 pm

It has definately been done successfully in the past with other breeds. Are you familiar with the definition of the word "cull"? Do you know what it means when someone talks about making the "hard decisions" on a litter?

snips · Post by **snips** » Mon Feb 01, 2010 7:04 pm

Sometimes you do not get obvious problems that show up before pups leave. You can get many problems that show up down the road. That is why it is good to be able to keep all the pups like Whele was doing. I did a direct inbreeding once many years ago and got all females with hermaphiditism (sp). There are many genetic disorders that can show up, up to 2 yrs old. So I am not a fan of it.

TAK · Post by **TAK** » Mon Feb 01, 2010 7:13 pm

Middlecreek wrote:It has definately been done successfully in the past with other breeds. Are you familiar with the definition of the word "cull"? Do you know what it means when someone talks about making the "hard decisions" on a litter?

Yes sire I do.... Though that is not in my plan but if it had to be..... I could.....

TAK · Post by **TAK** » Mon Feb 01, 2010 7:15 pm

snips wrote:Sometimes you do not get obvious problems that show up before pups leave. You can get many problems that show up down the road. That is why it is good to be able to keep all the pups like Whele was doing. I did a direct inbreeding once many years ago and got all females with hermaphiditism (sp). There are many genetic disorders that can show up, up to 2 yrs old. So I am not a fan of it.

Thanx Brenda... I do plan on keeping all the pups, or close to it. A few may go to a couple of friends. But they would not be out anything but some time.....

snips · Post by **snips** » Mon Feb 01, 2010 7:16 pm

Might be a good thing to do then, there have been some really good dogs come from it, just gotta be prepared.

Middlecreek · Post by **Middlecreek** » Mon Feb 01, 2010 7:23 pm

I figured you did and I was not trying to be condescending at all. Thanks goes to all those individuals long ago that did this very same thing to give us the beloveded breed we call the shorthair today. There is a long list of GREAT dogs that came from breeding like you are thinking. And by the way, I like the way you think! You know what you want in your dogs and are willing to do what it takes to get just that.

TAK · Post by **TAK** » Mon Feb 01, 2010 7:23 pm

snips wrote:Might be a good thing to do then, there have been some really good dogs come from it, just gotta be prepared.

Just not sure yet..... It really is the owner of the female that wants to do it the most. I just happen to have a half sister of his dog that I might want to do it also?

My next probel is this will be the bitch's first litter also. Sh is coming 5 I believe. I only have so many straws left and to waste them pains me!

TAK · Post by **TAK** » Mon Feb 01, 2010 7:26 pm

Middlecreek wrote:I figured you did and I was not trying to be condescending at all. Thanks goes to all those individuals long ago that did this very same thing to give us the beloveded breed we call the shorthair today. There is a long list of GREAT dogs that came from breeding like you are thinking. And by the way, I like the way you think! You know what you want in your dogs and are willing to do what it takes to get just that.

IF I do it, I hope for maybe a 4 pup litter... or even 2 would be fine. It will be an AI breeding as the sire is dead and I have frozen seman saved. And when you talk of great dogs, that is what my goal is....!

snips · Post by **snips** » Mon Feb 01, 2010 7:51 pm

Hopefully they will do it surgically. Only way to go.

Post by **kninebirddog** » Mon Feb 01, 2010 7:54 pm

trans cervical is way better then surgical rivals natural and is safer

trick is finding a vet with the machine as that is about 20,000 dollar investment for them

PS Hopefully she has had a litter before ...I will never AI a first time bitch no matter I want to know they will be a good mother before investing that much money and non replaceable semen on them

Middlecreek · Post by **Middlecreek** » Mon Feb 01, 2010 7:59 pm

trans cervical is way better then surgical rivals natural and is safer

tell us more....tell us more.... You have aroused my curiosity!

CherrystoneWeims · Post by **CherrystoneWeims** » Mon Feb 01, 2010 8:10 pm

kninebirddog wrote:trans cervical is way better then surgical rivals natural and is safer

trick is finding a vet with the machine as that is about 20,000 dollar investment for them

PS Hopefully she has had a litter before ...I will never AI a first time bitch no matter I want to know they will be a good mother before investing that much money and non replaceable semen on them

There is actually a higher success rate on Surgical implant than trans cervical. With some bitches it can be difficult to get the probe through the cervix for a trans cervical. Surgical procedures have become much safer nowadays as anesthesia is much safer.

TAK · Post by **TAK** » Mon Feb 01, 2010 8:27 pm

kninebirddog wrote:PS Hopefully she has had a litter before ...I will never AI a first time bitch no matter I want to know they will be a good mother before investing that much money and non replaceable semen on them

Ahh.... that is a gamble I am going to have to take if I do it... the two bitchs are first timers....

TAK · Post by **TAK** » Mon Feb 01, 2010 9:28 pm

This is the female I am thnking of.

Maddie
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TAK · Post by **TAK** » Mon Feb 01, 2010 9:39 pm

And maybe the other female....

TAK's Ohh Hail Yeah
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Post by **kninebirddog** » Mon Feb 01, 2010 9:48 pm

This is form the AKC

The transcervical insemination (TCI) is performed with the bitch in a standing position. No sedation nor anesthesia is required. A fiber optic cystourethoscope is used vaginally to visualize the opening to the cervix. A flexible catheter is maneuvered through the cervix into the uterus. It is important that the breeder realize that the veterinarian is not visualizing the inside of the uterus and this technique does not allow for evaluation of the uterus.

The TCI procedure is visualized on a television monitor and does allow for examination of the vaginal tract, however. The semen is gently pushed through the catheter from a syringe. The veterinarian can visualize that the semen flows easily into the uterus and does not flow back into the vaginal tract.

The transcervical insemination does not replace the surgical insemination as it does not allow for uterine evaluation, but is a significant improvement over the vaginal method of artificial insemination. The TCI is recommended for any type semen, especially frozen and fresh-cooled and can significantly increase conception when poor quality semen and lowered sperm numbers are used. The TCI technique should be used in bitches less than 5 years of age where there is not a reason to suspect uterine changes or uterine disease.

surgical requires sedation and cutting that is always risky for infection.

and that isn't the only one I know of that aborted from infection..

I am gathering that surgical and transcervical are about the same on average litter size which is way better the pipette method.
the people I know that have done AI have done Trans and litters were 7-9 pups average and for the bull dog people getting average 5-6 pups

as for the line that I bold typed I personally would still do transcervical as if the go in surgically they will remove stuff and that sets the female for a bigger chance of getting an infection so if you elect to go surgical and they find any thing which they feel the need to remove tell them not to inseminate as I know of 3 females that Last one was a good friend of mine who had his female surgically done then was rushing his girl in a couple weeks for an emergency spay to save her life.

anyways just things I have watched happen with clients and friends

http://www.aahpa.com/programs/canine/transins/

Yawallac · Post by **Yawallac** » Mon Feb 01, 2010 10:35 pm

This is the female I am thnking of.

And maybe the other female....

Something's not quite right with one or both of those pedigrees.

Fieldmaster · Post by **Fieldmaster** » Mon Feb 01, 2010 10:38 pm

Tom,
In my opinion if you like everything about the dogs in questions as I am sure you do, then this could be a very very nice line breeding. Are you looking to breed these bitches back to your Clown or a littermate of Clown? I am doing a very similar type breeding this spring ( Neice x Uncle ) http://fieldmastersshorthairs.netkennel ... 20Breeding

Good luck with the breedings

Robert

TAK · Post by **TAK** » Mon Feb 01, 2010 10:50 pm

Fieldmaster wrote:Tom,
In my opinion if you like everything about the dogs in questions as I am sure you do, then this could be a very very nice line breeding. Are you looking to breed these bitches back to your Clown or a littermate of Clown? I am doing a very similar type breeding this spring ( Neice x Uncle ) http://fieldmastersshorthairs.netkennel ... 20Breeding

Good luck with the breedings

Robert

Thanx Robert...
I likely will do it with the Maddie dog over my dog, and see how that pans out.

briguyz71 · Post by **briguyz71** » Mon Feb 01, 2010 10:51 pm

Yawallac wrote:
This is the female I am thnking of.

And maybe the other female....
Something's not quite right with one or both of those pedigrees.

Hopefully that is just a typo. Otherwise this breeding could be very interesting.

TAK · Post by **TAK** » Mon Feb 01, 2010 11:11 pm

OK I think I fixed all the ped issues! Think!

Maddie

TAK's Ohh Hail Yeah

madonna · Post by **madonna** » Tue Feb 02, 2010 6:38 am

TAK wrote:I am looking for as much information as I can on a Father X Daughter breeding. Pro's/Cons.

The bottom side is of two different lines, so it is not all that close other than the top line.

Let me have it! I can take it also!

Hallo- i warn you- do not do it! If there is a genetic fixed disease, you will get it! Greeting madonna

Post by **Greg Jennings** » Tue Feb 02, 2010 7:45 am

Of course genetic diseases will surface.

Everything, good and bad will be doubled up on.

Must be OK with the hard decisions.

Unfortunately, some things, good and bad, will not be noticable till later in the dog's life.

A/C Guy · Post by **A/C Guy** » Tue Feb 02, 2010 7:50 am

It is irresponsible to intentional in-breed.

snips · Post by **snips** » Tue Feb 02, 2010 7:53 am

If it were me, and it was a frozen litter I would put my money in more of a sure bet. It is very costly and a toss of the dice getting anything from frozen, so if it were me I would go with more of a nice linebreeding.. Both specimans need to be top notch in every aspect to do this. The litter I did had many more problems than the one I mentioned, it was a nightmare. Thats why you have to keep them to see what pops up.

Middlecreek · Post by **Middlecreek** » Tue Feb 02, 2010 7:58 am

It is irresponsible to intentional in-breed.

Where exactly does everyone draw the line between "in-breeding " and "line-breeding" ??

snips · Post by **snips** » Tue Feb 02, 2010 8:34 am

Inbreeding is direct siblings or Sire or Dam to direct offspring.

vzkennels · Post by **vzkennels** » Tue Feb 02, 2010 9:49 am

A/C this makes the 2nd time I have seen you comment on the breeding of related dogs.I take it you don't believe in LINEBREEDING?I think you said when you breed you breed to dogs that are as far related as possible in other words CROSSBREEDING?

CherrystoneWeims · Post by **CherrystoneWeims** » Tue Feb 02, 2010 10:01 am

The problem also with doing a father x daughter breeding or anything that close is not only what is already in the pedigrees for health issues. By doing breedings like this you have no genetic diversity. It weakens the immune systems for certain things (perhaps cancers) of what is produced.

Check out this article
http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/20 ... 125403.htm

Here is another excellent article. It pertains to cattle breeding but is quite informative!
http://doublehelixranch.com/defects.html

Dave Quindt · Post by **Dave Quindt** » Tue Feb 02, 2010 10:31 am

Middlecreek wrote:
Where exactly does everyone draw the line between "in-breeding " and "line-breeding" ??

Ask 10 dog breeders that question and you'll get at least 11 answers.

Talk to a geneticist and you will find that line-breeding is not a term they use. To them, it's all inbreeding; it's just a matter of degree. Since inbreeding has a negative tone to it, the term linebreeding was coined by dog folks to mean a loose inbreeding. Inbreeding itself is a tricky term, because you can't consider a litter inbred unless its inbreeding coefficient is higher than the average for the breed. We have no idea what the average for any breed is.

The idea that a tight inbred litter should not be whelped because of risk of genetic disease is not correct, IF the breeder is willing to accept the risks. Generally that means holding onto all the pups until adulthood. Without genetic testing, the best way to clear a line of genetic faults is to inbreed tightly, cull those who display genetic problems and breed those who do not. The problem is that most breeders are not in a position to keep all of the pups, or put them in homes where the owners fully understand the risks.

Personally, I would not recommend the breeding in question. The problem with these tightly inbred litters is that it forces the hand of the breeder of the next generation of dogs. Breed father to daughter, and you force the owners of the pups to breed completely away. The tighter the inbreeding the further out you need to go in the next generation.

IMO, the vast majority of linebreeding/inbreeding/whatever you want to call it is very ineffectual and causes more problems than it solves. Most of it is IMO inbreeding off paper, and not of actual genes and traits. When you look at the retriever or spaniel world you see little inbreeding but you see breed improvement and litter consistency and faults being bred out of lines; all things that we've been told can only happen through inbreeding.

JMO,
Dave

TAK · Post by **TAK** » Tue Feb 02, 2010 10:45 am

Dave Quindt wrote: Personally, I would not recommend the breeding in question. The problem with these tightly inbred litters is that it forces the hand of the breeder of the next generation of dogs. Breed father to daughter, and you force the owners of the pups to breed completely away. The tighter the inbreeding the further out you need to go in the next generation.

That is great information... However I plan do such as you have said, keep all the pups and /or place them in places that are fully aware of what they have.

I am torn... I am continueing to research this. I do have time....

BoJack · Post by **BoJack** » Tue Feb 02, 2010 10:49 am

Bob Wehle of Elhew kennels did on more then one ocassion with success.

Yawallac · Post by **Yawallac** » Tue Feb 02, 2010 11:00 am

The problem with these tightly inbred litters is that it forces the hand of the breeder of the next generation of dogs. Breed father to daughter, and you force the owners of the pups to breed completely away. The tighter the inbreeding the further out you need to go in the next generation.

While an outcross is inevitable, there is no rule that says the "next generation" must be a complete outcross. I would have no problem breeding this dog to one of my Go Boy females. ..and he's pretty tightly bred.

http://www.erinkennels.com/pedigrees/30.pdf

Ch. Erin's Bad River - Sire and Dam are littermates.

...and I guess Sean wasn't worried about it either.

http://www.erinkennels.com/pedigrees/65.pdf

CH Erin's Stoney River - Sire above x triple bred Go Boy female.

Not sure why so many get freaked out with inbreeding. It's used to create consistency and remove faults. Then you outcross for vigor. Yes, you have to be willing to grow them out and you have to be willing to cull, but there is no better way to improve a line IMO.

cjuve · Post by **cjuve** » Tue Feb 02, 2010 11:02 am

A/C Guy wrote:It is irresponsible to intentional in-breed.

If it was not for inbreeding we would not have the breeds that we have today.

adogslife · Post by **adogslife** » Tue Feb 02, 2010 11:04 am

If the breeder is unaware of the negative recessive traits that could pop up then the breeder is taking a real chance and is not acting as a responsible breeder.

Shadow · Post by **Shadow** » Tue Feb 02, 2010 11:13 am

I like the thought that he'd like to have 2 to 4 pups- what are you going to do if she has 13

Ridge-Point · Post by **Ridge-Point** » Tue Feb 02, 2010 11:26 am

I think you should throw Don at High Country Airedales an e-mail. I think he built his line from show stock using very tight linebreedings. I am sure he could tell you what to expect. http://www.huntingairedales.com/contactus.htm

Also what are your goals for doing it? Are you breeding that tight as a one time event, or are you looking to continue breeding that tight with future litters? What if all your pups are culls? Just some things I would consider if I was planning something that ambitious.

Post by **Greg Jennings** » Tue Feb 02, 2010 11:32 am

Shadow wrote:I like the thought that he'd like to have 2 to 4 pups- what are you going to do if she has 13

Unlikely doing AI.

Shadow · Post by **Shadow** » Tue Feb 02, 2010 12:37 pm

ahhhhhh sorry- missed that

TAK · Post by **TAK** » Tue Feb 02, 2010 12:42 pm

Shadow wrote:I like the thought that he'd like to have 2 to 4 pups- what are you going to do if she has 13

Well I will have to build me some more kennels! But this is an AI thing and most times litter numbers are lower. One reason I say such a small number I am not trying to sale the pups. I want to keep as many as possible and have a few select friends that will take a few each if needed.

TAK · Post by **TAK** » Tue Feb 02, 2010 12:57 pm

adogslife wrote:If the breeder is unaware of the negative recessive traits that could pop up then the breeder is taking a real chance and is not acting as a responsible breeder.

You are correct here. The "Unaware" part is the female has not been with pup before. However she nor any of the siblings have any genetic issues that I have seen in any of the pups or this line. Again I am only talking about my dogs here.

Feet, bite, teeth, gait. great nose, style, very natural and easy to train.......... Now true there is a Brother to the second female that likes to jump off bridges. I call him "CAN'T GET RIGHT"

Baring any man made problems I am starting out pretty sound.