How many? X-Ray pic!!

PkerStr8Tail · Post by **PkerStr8Tail** » Sat Feb 06, 2010 6:40 pm

She will have 15.

9 Females
6 Males

Yawallac · Post by **Yawallac** » Sat Feb 06, 2010 6:49 pm

She will have 15.

9 Females
6 Males

Can you give me the color breakdown?

Ruffshooter · Post by **Ruffshooter** » Sat Feb 06, 2010 6:53 pm

I bet they will be mostly white.

Yawallac · Post by **Yawallac** » Sat Feb 06, 2010 8:12 pm

I bet they will be mostly white.

I sure hope so!

TAK · Post by **TAK** » Sat Feb 06, 2010 8:14 pm

I only see 8.... I am stickin to it! 8!

Post by **kninebirddog** » Sat Feb 06, 2010 8:35 pm

16

see 13 for sure skulls but there are 2 spines in the back ground that don't match up with the skulls and a spine to the far right that the skull maybe hidden by the intestine

Yawallac · Post by **Yawallac** » Sat Feb 06, 2010 8:42 pm

knine,

That's exactly how I see it too.

(I have no idea what the heck Tak is looking at!?!?!?!)

vzkennels · Post by **vzkennels** » Sat Feb 06, 2010 8:56 pm

Tak is a cop,he is trained to notice DETAIL

birddogger · Post by **birddogger** » Sat Feb 06, 2010 8:57 pm

I say 14, and I think that the people who guess right, should get a free one.

I hope they all survive Ross. Good luck!!!!

Charlie

Yawallac · Post by **Yawallac** » Sat Feb 06, 2010 10:06 pm

Ted, you crack me up!

Charlie, I hope they all make it but there are bound to be a couple of weaker pups with so many and I don't have another female with pups young enough to slip some in (I do that often). I'll do my best to help Sarah sort them out. Her 14 pup litter was amazing in that she fed them in shifts. She would divide the litter in half and lay between the pups. She would feed the first half and then turn around and feed the other half. It was unbelievable to watch her work. When she began dividing them the first time I didn't know what in the world she was up to so I just watched her....

Another story... Right after Sarah's Strut litter was weaned, Girls Blackhawk litter (Jack's litter) was whelped. I had Girl in the whelping box in the house and Sarah followed me in one day. I realized that I hadn't seen her in a while so I started calling her. She didn't come so I began looking around. Sure enough, she had gotten in the whelping box with Girl and was nursing three of the pups! I couldn't believe my eyes. Girl was on one side with pups nursing and Sarah was on the other... They both acted as if it was supposed to be like that!

TAK · Post by **TAK** » Sat Feb 06, 2010 10:08 pm

Yawallac wrote:knine,

That's exactly how I see it too.

(I have no idea what the heck Tak is looking at!?!?!?!)

Everyone else is over bidding! I am sticking with 8!

TAK · Post by **TAK** » Sat Feb 06, 2010 10:10 pm

Yawallac wrote:Ted, you crack me up!

Charlie, I hope they all make it but there are bound to be a couple of weaker pups with so many and I don't have another female with pups young enough to slip some in (I do that often). I'll do my best to help Sarah sort them out. Her 14 pup litter was amazing in that she fed them in shifts. She would divide the litter in half and lay between the pups. She would feed the first half and then turn around and feed the other half. It was unbelievable to watch her work. When she began dividing them the first time I didn't know what in the world she was up to so I just watched her....

I had a friend that has a bitch give birth to 18 pups! All but one lived!!!!!

up-hunter · Post by **up-hunter** » Sun Feb 07, 2010 12:18 pm

Hey ross what does gene think of a litter or guardrail pups this big.

i bet he is a little excited

Yawallac · Post by **Yawallac** » Sun Feb 07, 2010 12:38 pm

Craig,

Most of the GR litters have produced 5-6 pups with the single largest ever at 9. Gene gets second overall pick so he was pretty excited yesterday when I spoke to him.

fourtrax · Post by **fourtrax** » Sun Feb 07, 2010 2:10 pm

"Bakers Dozen"!!!

Birddog3412 · Post by **Birddog3412** » Sun Feb 07, 2010 2:18 pm

up-hunter wrote:Hey ross what does gene think of a litter or guardrail pups this big.

i bet he is a little excited

Maybe Grandpa Gene and Uncle Ross would give us a good deal on one!!

PkerStr8Tail · Post by **PkerStr8Tail** » Sun Feb 07, 2010 3:11 pm

Yawallac wrote:
She will have 15.

9 Females
6 Males
Can you give me the color breakdown?

If I guess the color right too, do I get one for free?

Yawallac · Post by **Yawallac** » Sun Feb 07, 2010 4:57 pm

I'll give away all the black and white pups.

Birddog3412 · Post by **Birddog3412** » Sun Feb 07, 2010 5:03 pm

Yawallac wrote:I'll give away all the black and white pups.

Put me on the list for a black and white, always a chance!!!!! :roll:

M1Tanker · Post by **M1Tanker** » Sun Feb 07, 2010 5:19 pm

I'm saying 10

birdogg42 · Post by **birdogg42** » Sun Feb 07, 2010 5:43 pm

I will buy all the pups that have a liver spot at the base of their tails for $5000 apiece!

Yawallac · Post by **Yawallac** » Sun Feb 07, 2010 5:45 pm

Put me on the list for a black and white, always a chance!!!!!

Not possible, they are both liver and white. She'll have liver and white or lemon and white or maybe an all white, but she can not have black and white or orange (black nose) and white.

I will buy all the pups that have a liver spot at the base of their tails for $5000 apiece!

Wouldn't surprise me to see a boat load of them!

birddogger · Post by **birddogger** » Sun Feb 07, 2010 5:48 pm

birdogg42 wrote:I will buy all the pups that have a liver spot at the base of their tails for $5000 apiece!

Be careful what you ask for, you just might get it.

Charlie

Birddog3412 · Post by **Birddog3412** » Sun Feb 07, 2010 6:34 pm

Yawallac wrote:
Put me on the list for a black and white, always a chance!!!!!

Not possible, they are both liver and white. She'll have liver and white or lemon and white or maybe an all white, but she can not have black and white or orange (black nose) and white.

Your right you probably wont get a black pup. And im not wanting to start a fight, but it is genetics that is way above my head, and nothing is 100%

In the case of Coat Color the best rule to remember is “all that glitters is not gold”. The meaning behind this statement is there is nothing quite as simple as a Black, Liver, or Orange Pointer. The genetics behind determining a Pointers coat color is fairly simple yet somewhat involved. I will try to simplify this and the various color combinations in the charts below.
As I mentioned before, there are several variables to consider when determining a dogs actual color. In addition to the apparent color of the coat there also lies the issue of skin pigment and ticking. For the sake of sanity I will resist the temptation to address ticking at this time.
The actual color of a Pointer has been an issue of great confusion over the years. The most glaring example comes from the determination of Orange vs. Lemon. I have read many article by countless individuals and with each left more confused than before. By some breeders definition if a dog were to be a light orange in color it would be called a Lemon Pointer where as dark would be Orange. Though seemingly quite simple nothing could be further from the truth.
The true color of a Pointer is determined by the make up of the two genes present, or better stated the four alleles. These two genes are typically referred to as the “B” and “E” alleles. The best explanation of the “B” allele is best described as having a “black pigment” gene. These alleles can either be present in the dominant “B” or recessive “b” form. Remember, a dog having at least one dominant “B” allele will always have black pigment. Both the Black and Orange Pointers can carry the “B” allele and show the black pigment.
The other dominant gene is the “E” allele. This gene if present is responsible for producing the darker color in a Pointer. If a dog has at least one “E” allele present it must be either black or liver in color.

So the resulting combination of alleles must always follow one of these basic patterns.

Black Pointer: B ( _ ) E ( _ )

Orange Pointer: B ( _ ) e e

Liver Pointer: b b E ( _ )

Lemon Pointer: b b e e

The genotypes for the various colors are listed above. A dash ( _ ) indicates either allele can be present.

Where the uppercase allele (B or E) is present its traits will dominate. Only if a double “bb” allele or “ee” allele is present will it result in that trait.

Black Pointer: BBEE, BbEE, BBEe, BbEe

Orange Pointer: Bbee, Bbee

Liver Pointer: bbEE, bbEe

Lemon Pointer: bbee

Remember B = black pigment E = dark color (black or liver)

b = light pigment e = light color (lemon or orange)

Possible Colors From Breeding

Black Pointer:

BBEE - This dog can only produce puppies with black coloring.

BBEe - This dog can produce both black and/or orange puppies

BbEE - This dog can produce only black and/or liver puppies.

BbEe - This dog can produce all four colors of puppies

Note: A black dog producing an Orange puppy must either be BBEe or BbEe genotype.

A black dog producing a Liver puppy can only be BbEE or BbEe genotype.

A black dog producing Liver and/or Orange can only be a BbEe genotype.

Orange Pointer:

BBee - This dog can only produce black and/or orange puppies

Bbee - This dog can produce all four colors.

Note: An Orange dog producing a liver puppy must be a Bbee genotype.

Liver Pointer:

bbEE - This dog can produce black and/or liver pups.

bbEe - This dog can produce all possible colors.

Note: A Liver dog producing an Orange or Lemon pup must be a bbEe genotype. Two Liver dogs mated can only produce Liver pups if either of the parents are bbEE. They could either be bbEe or bbEE genotypes but if one is bbEE the resulting pups will always be liver in color. In breedings where both parents have the bbEe genotype there is a 75% chance for liver and a 25% chance of producing puppies with the lemon coloring.

Lemon Pointer:

bbee - This dog can produce all four colors of puppies.

Note: A Lemon dog can produce all possible colors but will only produce Lemon colored pups if bred to another Lemon pointer.

birdogg42 · Post by **birdogg42** » Sun Feb 07, 2010 6:43 pm

birdogg42 wrote:I will buy all the pups that have a liver spot at the base of their tails for $5000 apiece!

That was typed with nine kinds of sarcasm!!!!!!!!!!

Ruffshooter · Post by **Ruffshooter** » Sun Feb 07, 2010 6:54 pm

I see 16. My GSP Mercy is lactating, right now, not bred but lactating a little. Too bad We were not down that way.
Rick

Rich Heaton · Post by **Rich Heaton** » Sun Feb 07, 2010 8:11 pm

So Ross how many did the vet say you were going to have and how comfortable did they feel with that number? I personally have found its just better use of my money to wait until I think they are done having pups then run them into the vet and have them x-ray. With my luck,,,,, I go in have them shoot pictures they say 10 pups,, the day comes only 9 come out the magic 4 hours pass by and I'm in the emergency vet office at 2 in the morning paying a small fortune for more pics to see where the missing one is in the birth canal.

Yawallac · Post by **Yawallac** » Sun Feb 07, 2010 8:30 pm

So Ross how many did the vet say you were going to have and how comfortable did they feel with that number? I personally have found its just better use of my money to wait until I think they are done having pups then run them into the vet and have them x-ray. With my luck,,,,, I go in have them shoot pictures they say 10 pups,, the day comes only 9 come out the magic 4 hours pass by and I'm in the emergency vet office at 2 in the morning paying a small fortune for more pics to see where the missing one is in the birth canal.

Rich,

After the ultrasound last month, the vet said, "There are at least eight." After the x-ray yesterday, she said, "There are at least 13."

We don't normally jump through all these hoops with our litters, but considering the substantial investment with this one, we aren't taking any chances.

BD3412,

I enjoyed your post, thank you. I define Orange as a pup having a black nose with orange fur. If the pup has orange fur with a flesh nose it is a lemon even though the pup may indeed have very dark orange fur. I have never seen two liver dogs produce black/white or orange/white pups and I do not believe it is possible barring a mutation. Thoughts?

Ruffshooter,

I like your numbers!

Rich Heaton · Post by **Rich Heaton** » Sun Feb 07, 2010 8:49 pm

I agree 100% that's why I would become very nervous when the magic 4 hours passes from the last pup and ya don't know if she is done, just to tired to push anymore or got one maybe two stuck in the ol'pipe line. So back to the vet I go, momma, a laundry basket of pups and checkbook.

Yawallac · Post by **Yawallac** » Sun Feb 07, 2010 9:02 pm

...just to tired to push anymore or got one maybe two stuck in the ol'pipe line.

Rich,

Great point and because of the size of the litter we are going to do an elective c-section on Tuesday. That's the main reason we x-rayed her. She got enormous and I knew that the initial estimate of "8" was WAY OFF!!

.

birdogg42 · Post by **birdogg42** » Sun Feb 07, 2010 9:15 pm

How do you plan on feeding that many pups ross?

Yawallac · Post by **Yawallac** » Sun Feb 07, 2010 9:31 pm

When Sarah had 14, she divided them in half and fed them in shifts. The vet recommended marking them to ensure that they all get fed. I've never had any success bottle feeding pups. It seems that I usually drown them!

Post by **kninebirddog** » Sun Feb 07, 2010 9:46 pm

ross when I have had to supplement I have had great success using the similac powdered milk based infant formula with DHA DRA use one of the formed clear plastic nipple #2 flow and a small baby bottle............ mix 1 to 1 this is with new borns

you can get a french feeding tube if needed from www.atozvetsupply.com about 3 cc to start to help assist but not to over do a pups from nursing on mom

Once the teeth start erupt then i go to the parents choice milk based infant formula with DHA and DRA using a coffee grinder for the premium adult food one scoop food to one scoop formula

I know you deal with tons more pups then I do but I know you want to take that extra step with this litter

Yawallac · Post by **Yawallac** » Sun Feb 07, 2010 10:17 pm

Thanks knine, that's great information. I have had such little success trying to bottle feed pups that I have given up even trying. I will try your suggestions. Great post!

Post by **kninebirddog** » Sun Feb 07, 2010 10:27 pm

oops

Once the teeth start erupt then i go to the parents choice milk based infant formula with DHA and DRA using a coffee grinder for the premium adult food one scoop food to one scoop formula AND 2 PARTS WARM WATER

DGFavor · Post by **DGFavor** » Mon Feb 08, 2010 12:42 am

If you knew you were gonna do C-sex why bother doing the xray?? Tsk, tsk, tsk...breaks one of the big rules of medicine - if you are not going to do anything with the result of the test, don't do the test.

Awww well, a little radiation'll probably be good for a litter of pointers...

Yawallac · Post by **Yawallac** » Mon Feb 08, 2010 7:30 am

If you knew you were gonna do C-sex why bother doing the xray?? Tsk, tsk, tsk...breaks one of the big rules of medicine - if you are not going to do anything with the result of the test, don't do the test.

The REASON we did the xray was to determine whether we were going to go natural or c-sec. :roll:

Tsk, tsk, tsk ....so much for third world medical degrees!

Post by **slistoe** » Mon Feb 08, 2010 8:10 am

Yawallac wrote: I enjoyed your post, thank you. I define Orange as a pup having a black nose with orange fur. If the pup has orange fur with a flesh nose it is a lemon even though the pup may indeed have very dark orange fur. I have never seen two liver dogs produce black/white or orange/white pups and I do not believe it is possible barring a mutation. Thoughts?

In the Brittany and the Lab 2 livers/chocolates can produce what you know as lemon, but never orange (defined as black nose) or black.

Yawallac · Post by **Yawallac** » Tue Feb 09, 2010 8:13 am

She must have overheard my plans for a c-sec today, because she decidied to get started on her own ....10 and counting.

12 Volt Man · Post by **12 Volt Man** » Tue Feb 09, 2010 9:43 am

Yawallac wrote:She must have overheard my plans for a c-sec today, because she decidied to get started on her own ....10 and counting.

Go Sarah!

5 would have been nice to get from this breeding. 8, spectacular, 10 is incredible, ........ If you get 14, I expect cigars all around

up-hunter · Post by **up-hunter** » Tue Feb 09, 2010 9:44 am

congrats ross keep the updates coming

CherrystoneWeims · Post by **CherrystoneWeims** » Tue Feb 09, 2010 12:25 pm

Yawallac wrote:When Sarah had 14, she divided them in half and fed them in shifts. The vet recommended marking them to ensure that they all get fed. I've never had any success bottle feeding pups. It seems that I usually drown them!

LOL Ross, if ya need help bottlefeeding those babies just let me know. I'm an old pro at it. I hand raised a litter of abandoned mix breed pups a few years back. They were about 3 days old when I got them.

This is the best formula that I have found. It has colostrum in it. My vet sold it to my at cost when he knew it was for some rescued pups.
http://www.revivalanimal.com/store/p/13 ... rmula.aspx

Birddog3412 · Post by **Birddog3412** » Tue Feb 09, 2010 12:44 pm

Yawallac wrote:She must have overheard my plans for a c-sec today, because she decidied to get started on her own ....10 and counting.

She done yet, we are all on the edge of our seat!!

Yawallac · Post by **Yawallac** » Tue Feb 09, 2010 5:19 pm

It appears to be over at 13. 8F 5M. All liver and white with very clean bodies. Great looking litter. Momma and pups are resting comfortably.

birddogger · Post by **birddogger** » Tue Feb 09, 2010 5:26 pm

That's great Ross!! My count was one off, so I didn't win a free one. I hope everything continues to go well and a huge congrats!!!!

Charlie

BoJack · Post by **BoJack** » Tue Feb 09, 2010 5:38 pm

Hellava litter! I was only one off.Didn't you say that free pups go to the 3 closest guessers!? They're gonna nickname you Rossrail before long,ha ha.

MARKB · Post by **MARKB** » Tue Feb 09, 2010 5:46 pm

Congradulations, Gene has to pumped !

I was right on !! I win ,Yes

That means I get a Medical degree or something doesn't it ? Maybe one of those THIRD World ones !!!!
Maybe I can take care of one of the Jackson's ?????

Post pics when you have a chance, I'm sure you're busy .

Did you get much color ????

Fireside · Post by **Fireside** » Tue Feb 09, 2010 7:37 pm

I win with lucky 13!! Congrats on the great litter!!!!

Yawallac · Post by **Yawallac** » Tue Feb 09, 2010 10:32 pm

Ditch__Parrot · Post by **Ditch__Parrot** » Tue Feb 09, 2010 10:34 pm

Nice.. How many hours old are they in that pic ? Gotta love the internet. Congrats on the litter, sounds like a nice one.