Brittany Question

[skitchen]

Alright bird chasers, I hope you can help me out here!

I have always hunted rabbits and hare with Beagles, but have recently become passionate about hunting birds. Mostly doves, and occasionally waterfowl. I am looking into adding a Brittany to my family to go with my new hobby. They are appealing to me because of their size and disposition. I don't need a dog with tremendous stamina like the GSP, as I do not spend hours tromping through the fields.

So, here is the question:

Is it true Brittanys are great rabbit hunters as well? And if so, can I use the same dog to hunt rabbits and retrieve birds? If I had a dog that did this I would be the happiest hunter in the world! haha

Thanks for any insight! - Training tips are walcome too

[Birddogz]

A DD is what you would want. They do it both naturally. My Britts did point rabbits when they were pups, but a DD will point birds, retrieve waterfowl, trail wounded deer, and pursue rabbits.

[Ruffshooter]

DD this DD that. He wants a Brittany. I hunt ducks, geese, grouse or any upland I choose I have run blood tracks for buddies who have had a hard track. They will also do rabbits. They have tons of stamina. They Can do the duck hunts down to the upper twenties if the wind is not to stout. I also have GSP and they do it all as well.

But you asked if you can hunt rabbit with a brittany, you sure can. It is a matter of how you do it. Dave C from the UK is a good resources.
Rick.

[Birddogz]

Look, I have Britts and a DD. I love Britts, but they don't have the coat of a DD. That is just a fact. The DD is a much more natural tracker of rabbits. If the guy is looking for a versatile dog, the DD has been bred for it. I have never NOT owned a Britt. I never will be without one either, but they do have limitations. My Britts can't handle the cold as well as my DD, especially in the water. Now, that being said, a DD isn't going to hold a candle to a labs coat. How many people run Britts on rabbits? Not many. How many people run DDs? Lots. Not saying a Britt can't do it, just that it isn't as common. As for your dogs retrieving in that weather, I'd have to see it. Here in Nebraska, in late season, I can't imagine any Britt or GSP retrieving in 35 mph winds. My buddy's labs get darn cold! My DD can do it until December, after that it is just too bitter.

[Birddog3412]

If you want a Brit get one, It all comes down to what you want. I personally think you would be better off with a springer or a lab for doves and waterfowl, from what you have described, but the brits I am around are used more for upland that waterfowl.

[Birddogz]

Don't get me wrong, by all means get a Britt. I love them, and hold them in very high regard. I currently own two. The rabbit thing was the reason I came up with the DD comment.

[texscala]

I own a little FB and we had to work very hard to keep her off of fur. I broke her of tracking deer and rabbits as I never intend to use for that but have had problems with her tracking and then pointing cats.

We had close calls with both cougars and bobcats last season. I came in front of a pointed dog and kicked a bush only to see a cougar come out the other side, 2 weeks later a mile away we had about the same experience only with a big bobcat. Nothing like expecting a covey of chukars and seeing a lion explode from the cover.

[Doodle]

Britt Question? NO question. If you want the Britt, get it. If you want to hunt upland, waterfowl, and fur do it. This is one of the versatile breeds. You will hear alot of buzz but it is just noise. I have hunted grouse, woodcock, pheasant, ducks, geese, woodchucks, she will run rabbits, and retrieve fur. TALK to the breeders, find one that may have a dog that is run as a versatile dog. They are out there look around. I was lucky and got a dog that lives to hunt.

Thank you Ruffshooter for your comments. For all the heat I have taken for years of hunting like this....it is good to know I am not the only one. The new pup has some pretty big boots to fill.

[Ruffshooter]

I did say I would not hunt in Stout winds, I did fail to say mine are too small to break much ice. The GSP is only down to mid 30's light winds. I would not have done this, but, I know a guy that sea duck hunted with his britts for years. His dogs were stout. Not in January but still pretty good for a little dog. I think, also you will find that the black britt coat is a little denser and shed water better than the white coats. Body structure, size, body fat, stoutness, bone and coat are the determining factors of how well a dog handles the cold wet conditions of waterfowl hunting. The little one in the avatar hastthe heart to hunt any weather but I will not hunt her for the waterfowl unless it is in low forties an higher.
Buster is a more stout dog at 55 pounds, barrel chested, near full black coat, heavier boned.



Sorry for the This/ that thing. Dogs will do what you train them for. I also like the GWP or DD as you would.

[Birddogz]

No problem Ruffshooter. Cool thing is I am going to purchase a French Brit for my next dog. I have never owned one, but have hunted with 2 for the past 3 years. I LOVE my American Britts, and think they have found more birds than any dogs I have hunted with, but when they are young, their range tests my patience. I am a hunter only, and have no interest in trialing, so a dog busting it out on the horizon is not for me. (Especially with late season roosters!) My dogs hunt pheasants perfectly now, but the first 2 years were tenuous at best. My buddy's French Britts seem to naturally hunt closer, and have higher cooperation at a young age. My DD really hunts nice so far. Starting to really like the European dogs.

[Shadow]

skitchen- you sure could have an excellent rabbit Britt- young it should point a rabbit- flush it and shoot it

[skitchen]

Thanks to everyone for your quick responses. Really great insight. I think a Britt will be a good choice for my hunting. I live in Northwest Ohio, so not a lot of upland birds, just doves, an occasional cock, and a lot of rabbit. I think it would be pretty unique to show my buddies a dog who's primary job isto point rabbits - not what they're used to up here! Don't get me wrong, I still like the beagles, but ready for some controlled hunting. haha Any more suggestions?

[texscala]

Thought y'all might enjoy this.



Here is the Bobcat that came out and ended up getting itself between two dogs. One shot of Kent fast lead #6 by my buddy and she was done. Not a lot of guys can say their dog has successfully pointed and held a predator cat. She was a pretty nice size bobcat and my buddy is going to have a nice little rug made out of her.

Like I said earlier 2 weeks earlier the same deal happened with a cougar but we did not have cougar tags so it was free to go.

She also pointed 3 coveys of chukar this day.

Here she is standing deer, I have now taught her to leave them alone but she used to chase/point them too.

[Shadow]

once again- real nice pictures Tex

skitchen- when you're ready with your Britt you can come over here- you can take 15 rabbits a day- I'll lock mine up and help you if you'd like

[texscala]

No problem Ruffshooter. Cool thing is I am going to purchase a French Brit for my next dog. My buddy's French Britts seem to naturally hunt closer, and have higher cooperation at a young age. My DD really hunts nice so far. Starting to really like the European dogs.

Make sure you go with a breeder who emphasizes close working FBs. We love our FBs out west and prefer them for their personalities, small size, and good looks. The one big difference is we let them get out there and like them to stretch their legs.

Mine is happy to range at a half mile when hunting chukar or plains birds but stays much closer when we are in thick cover. FBs can range too if that is what they are trained to do.

I have also been told that the FBs are a bit more prone to fur but don't have enough experience to know if that is true or not. I know mine would do fine tracking fur if that is what I wanted her to do.

She is also a great dove retriever. Every year she finds doves for guys who swear they hit one but can't find it.

[Birddogz]

I don't mind them ranging when I am Sharpie, Chicken, Hun, Quail hunting. It is when I'm pheasant hunting that gets a little crazy. Have you owned both American and French Britts? What have you found to be the differences to be? My personal experience has been that the French Britts hunted a little closer, were more cooperative/less independent (which ever way it is phrased, seems to be the same thing. ) and naturally retrieved very well. My American Britts retrieve very well, but my female had to be FFed. My male was a natural retriever, and my other Britts were 50-50 natural to FFed.

[texscala]

The differences are subtle and you can find big ranging FBs and close working ABs. Which ever way you decide to go do your research and get the puppy exposed to what you want it to be doing early on. You will have a great time whether you go FB, AB, or German. I have hunted behind all of these breeds and they can all perform. If real cold and wet hunting is going to be a big part of your season you might want to look at something a little bigger. My FB is good in dry cold weather down to about 0 as long as her feet are protected but if it is wet and cold she does not last too long.

[Shadow]

Birddogs- we've only hunted pheasants this year- my male likes to get out there- he'll range 1/4- can be a bit stressfull as he'll lock up way out-
then again- he'll stay in if birds are in close- I'll take it anyway I can- got two young pups who'll run with him- even had the pup back him at 538 yards- and I got the two roosters- sometimes they'll hold- sometimes not- it's the nature of the game

first of the season it was rough as he'd want to really open up- so a bit of teaching to turn at the whistle at 1/4- Ivery seldom blow- he's caught on- pups have caught on by being with him

[Shadow]

The differences are subtle and you can find big ranging FBs and close working ABs. Which ever way you decide to go do your research and get the puppy exposed to what you want it to be doing early on. You will have a great time whether you go FB, AB, or German. I have hunted behind all of these breeds and they can all perform. If real cold and wet hunting is going to be a big part of your season you might want to look at something a little bigger. My FB is good in dry cold weather down to about 0 as long as her feet are protected but if it is wet and cold she does not last too long.

well said- I'd say if you have the breeding of big running britt's but don't want them running big- keep them in from day one thru 1 years old- just a matter of how far you want them out as they grow up

[AzDoggin]

I'll take it anyway I can- got two young pups who'll run with him- even had the pup back him at 538 yards- and I got the two roosters- sometimes they'll hold- sometimes not-

Wow that is impressive. How old are the pups?

I assume the wily phez is running and stopping, running and stopping until he finally holds up? The dogs then learn to relocate the point each time?

Pheasant has to be the toughest bird on a pointer (but the best tasting )

[Birddogz]

A talent that my Britts have learned to do through the years is "half arc them." A dog goes on point, the bird runs, they relocate, and this goes on a bit. Then, my dogs will make a 100 yard arc as fast as they can run, and hunt back to me and pinch the birds. Doesn't always work perfectly, but when it does it is fun to watch, and provides easy shooting! That is just years of SD/NE/KS hunting. I didn't teach them to do it, they just seemed to get frustrated and came up with the solution.

[Shadow]

then I'd say you have fine Britt's- what you descride is a thing of beauty- I'm thinking about trying NSTRA- not so good in that

could be I'll be swinging up north next fall- drop me a reminder maybe we can get together

[AzDoggin]

A talent that my Britts have learned to do through the years is "half arc them." A dog goes on point, the bird runs, they relocate, and this goes on a bit. Then, my dogs will make a 100 yard arc as fast as they can run, and hunt back to me and pinch the birds. Doesn't always work perfectly, but when it does it is fun to watch, and provides easy shooting! That is just years of SD/NE/KS hunting. I didn't teach them to do it, they just seemed to get frustrated and came up with the solution.

Smart dogs. Almost reminds me of "herding" that you might get from a border collie - but better - with a point!

Your dogs basically problem-solved a better way to hunt these birds. I wonder how difficult it would be to train this type of approach for pheasant hunting? It's obviously not necessary for most other birds, but...

Here in the desert, we hunt Gambel's quail. They run alot, especially when there are patches of open ground. It would be a HUGE benefit for a dog to circle behind them. I assume the hunter would need to move slowly (or sometimes not at all) to give dogs a chance to get around the birds.

[Birddogz]

If you hunt your dogs with the wind at your back, they will naturally do this. Started to notice this when I would hunt with the wind in my face, and then turn to go back to the vehicle with the wind "wrong". They learned to run out and hunt back, and from then on they started to do it when the wind was in my face.

[AzDoggin]

If you hunt your dogs with the wind at your back, they will naturally do this. Started to notice this when I would hunt with the wind in my face, and then turn to go back to the vehicle with the wind "wrong". They learned to run out and hunt back, and from then on they started to do it when the wind was in my face.

Of course, I remember my Britt doing that sometimes too. Maybe better in late season for the track athlete phez's?

[Shadow]

If you hunt your dogs with the wind at your back, they will naturally do this. Started to notice this when I would hunt with the wind in my face, and then turn to go back to the vehicle with the wind "wrong". They learned to run out and hunt back, and from then on they started to do it when the wind was in my face.

well heck- mine could learn something from yours maybe- they just take off and head every which way-
that's why I need the Garmins-

[Birddogz]

If you hunt your dogs with the wind at your back, they will naturally do this. Started to notice this when I would hunt with the wind in my face, and then turn to go back to the vehicle with the wind "wrong". They learned to run out and hunt back, and from then on they started to do it when the wind was in my face.

Of course, I remember my Britt doing that sometimes too. Maybe better in late season for the track athlete phez's?

Exactly, just hunt them with the wind at your back. The great thing about it is that pheasants typically get up into the wind, which means they get up and fly at you for a couple of seconds. BOOM,BOOM, dead bird, fetch 'em up!

[A/C Guy]

I hunt ducks, geese, grouse or any upland I choose I have run blood tracks for buddies who have had a hard track. They will also do rabbits. They have tons of stamina. They can do the duck hunts down to the upper twenties if the wind is not to stout.

But you asked if you can hunt rabbit with a brittany, you sure can.

I second his reply. Our Britts also track rabbits and deer and elk.

The purists aren't too happy, but the Britts CAN do it all.

[Neil]

People that have never hunted pheasants with a big running dog are always amazed at how long they will hold (not run or fly) if they are hit hard and fast, pinned in place without human noise. I have had them hold often while I drove a K-Mule 800 yards +.

Although it works and works well, I hate the point and creep method. The walking behind expecting a bird to come up any minute is nerve racking.

Now it does not always work (neither does the point an creep), but they will find so many more birds that you would have walked by, that it makes up for those that get away. At least you get to see them, even if it is just their butts as they fly over the hill.

Neil

[slistoe]

When the limit is only 2 birds per day on pheasant around here the point and creep dogs would be preferred - they keep you hunting for 3 times as long.

I have hunted pheasant with enough dogs of each type to say that hands down, hard and fast is more effective. Point and creep is far more common. Some dogs point and creep naturally, others hunt that way because of the influence of their handler. There is no way that I have seen to make a dog hunt them hard and fast. They either have the smarts to do it on their own or you better figure out how to make them point and creep.

[Shadow]

well put Neil-
both methods work- I think it has a lot to do with the area and if there are lots of pheasants- meaning if you were in an area like the Dakota's where there were a 100 or so pheasants in a field- most would want a pointing dog that stays in close- I would want a flushing dog- that was well mannered and wouldn't be out more than 30 yards
example- brother and freind met me with their flushing dogs- we shot more over them than over mine- big problem was the excitement of the flushers when pheasants started getting up out in front- mine statred that point and creep on large bunches- it would go on and on as they tried to pin them but the pheasants kept moving- takes a good pointer to keep their cool and not bust in- now in certain fields my pointers out did their's- agreement after 4 days was each had their good points and each had their bad

some birds are always going to bust out- depends on what the birds are doing
I've had mine head into a big field and pheasants started getting up 200 yards out from them- sure can't say it was because the Britt's were to far out or the noise- we were silent- just part of the game- some would say with close running pointers they would have held them- I don't think so

AZ- started these two pups in pheasants, each with an adult- at 4 months- why- because there are pheasants arround- little female would see him locked up- she'd lock up- all I did was come up to her speaking softly, watching, then move on to him- still watching her- she caught on to a bird would come up when he was standing like that- she got in on a couple retrieves- she's been backing him ever since- she'll back her brother- he hasn't caught on to the good backing- he wants to be the one to find and point- so I've run him with his mother- she backs him



now quail would be interesting- specially after the point and flush where that covey splits up- but I'd expect some confusion and some still flushing- and each dog would need a little handling

[Shadow]

When the limit is only 2 birds per day on pheasant around here the point and creep dogs would be preferred - they keep you hunting for 3 times as long.

I have hunted pheasant with enough dogs of each type to say that hands down, hard and fast is more effective. Point and creep is far more common. Some dogs point and creep naturally, others hunt that way because of the influence of their handler. There is no way that I have seen to make a dog hunt them hard and fast. They either have the smarts to do it on their own or you better figure out how to make them point and creep.

now that is a post that'll make you read twice- well put

[AzDoggin]

now quail would be interesting- specially after the point and flush where that covey splits up- but I'd expect some confusion and some still flushing- and each dog would need a little handling

The dogs are USUALLY smarter than the humans in handling a busted covey of Gambel's. Not always - sometimes once the covey explodes, the dog will go after the nearest single (naturally) when the majority of birds might have gone the opposite direction. I swear, my little Britt learned how to read quail calls after a few seasons, though, and she stayed with the main callback bird and the majority of the covey most times. It's just great fun for dog and hunter alike when you can be in decent #'s of birds.

[Birddogz]

I think it totally depends where you are hunting. A huge ranging dog in late season roosters in SD is going to get you shot by most locals. You have to keep them reasonably close and completely silent. No talking. Most dogs won't range, because there are birds everywhere. There is nothing more frustrating than having a dog that you feed all year pointing at 200 yards while you kick up pheasants at 20 yards. The dog should work in to out in an efficient search pattern. If they do so, they seldom will get very far away, as the birds are very concentrated late in the year.
Early in the year when the grass is still standing upright, and the birds are more spread out, it is fun to hunt areas that have both Sharpies and Pheasants and quail for that matter. Find a nice big patch of grass and let your dogs really spread out and find them for you. This is a very enjoyable way to hunt. The weather is usually nice, and there are very few hunters in those places, so the birds aren't nearly as spooky.
When the north wind starts to blow in December and January, things really change. Below zero wind chills become the norm, and drifting snow knocks down much of the cover. This is when the birds retreat to cattail and canary grass sloughs and shelterbelts with wind stopping trees. In this scenario, the birds are very concentrated, and very wise. Many times late in the year, the cover you once hunted early on is a few pieces of grass poking through the crusted over snow. The pheasants are long gone from these haunts. Now, instead of 10-20 pheasants together there are 200 together. 200 sets of eyes, from well educated pheasants is a daunting task for any dog. It requires an almost military like cooperation between hunters and dogs with the weakest link in the chain resulting in birds flushing far out of range. This is when a meticulous and patient dog is in order. Surround the cover with hunters and come in from all angles. This will often confuse the birds and the dogs will end up with some nice points. Many birds will still fly wild, that is the nature of the game, but some will hold long enough to position yourself for a shot. Late in the year those roosters are tougher than early, having put on fat and plumage through the year. The once doltish birds of early fall have morphed into paranoid meth addicts. Your dog will be worth their weight in gold by finding cripples. I can't tell you how many times I have knocked a late season rooster down and had my dogs retrieve it 100 yards from where it fell.
If you are lucky enough to get 4-5 inches of fresh snow, then you will experience the best holding pheasants of all time, but let that snow crust over so the pheasants can run on it and you can't, and look out.
All in all the pheasant is probably the most challenging bird for a pointing breed to hunt. It requires a real "team" player concept in both dog and man. They run too much, fly wild too much, out smart you too much, but that is what makes hunting them so addicting. A late season rooster is truly a trophy, and requires a dog with a lot of field time on pheasants, and a high I.Q./cooperation. Greedy dogs need not apply.

[Shadow]

I don't know Birddogz- I had a freind up in Clear Lake, Mn- I'd go up and hunt with him 4 times a year for 5 years running

his beef was- "your's are running too big all the birds are flushing, keep them in"
got in some cold, windy, deep snow days- I shot a lot of roosters
we both had Brittany's

[Birddogz]

It doesn't hurt for them to range, as long as they hunt methodically in to out and quartering. If they have a good search, let them go as far as they need to find birds. In SD they won't get far. Now, that being said, a dog that runs at 800 yards or better is not prudent. The dog needs to check in.

[Shadow]

It doesn't hurt for them to range, as long as they hunt methodically in to out and quartering. If they have a good search, let them go as far as they need to find birds. In SD they won't get far. Now, that being said, a dog that runs at 800 yards or better is not prudent. The dog needs to check in.

hum- I'm not saying he will be out 800 or more- nor am I saying he'll check in- he knows where I generally am and is happy to be looking for birds- so saying that- he's not real big about coming in to say hello

[Birddogz]

Mine get a little single minded also, but when they are pointing a bunch I catch up to them. I don't like dogs that want to run past 25 birds that are 60 yards from me to point a bird that is 400 yards away. If they point the birds closest to me first, I am happy.

[jetjockey]

Heres my 2-cents on the pheasant topic (and trust me, its only worth about 2 cents). I grew up hunting over brits in Eastern Wa for wild pheasants (there used to be a lot of them). We had what I considered to be darn good brits. However, they weren't really formally trained. They had to hunt close because they would bust a fair amount of birds. They weren't broke, they busted a few birds, pointed more, and we had fun. We killed a lot of birds over those dogs. If someone would have asked me if I wanted them ranging 300-400 yards I would have told them they are crazy. We were the definition of meat hunters! Now days though, I have been able to see what really good dog work can do. In the last couple of years Ive been able to help partake in some great NSTRA trials, as well as get into the AKC/AF trials. I was lucky enough to stay with, and watch a pro trainer at his camp in S. Dakota last summer. It really was an eye opening experience! Those dogs RARELY busted birds. They hunted both wild sharpies and pheasants, and they hunted hard and fast. Occasionally they would point and creep, but usually when they nailed a bird, it was nailed. BUT, what I didn't get to see was the first week or two of camp, when the dogs were "bowling for birds" as the trainer called it. He said that even his top dogs took a couple of days to get used to the wild running birds of the plains again. But, after a week or two the dogs were back to hunting fast and hard, and pointing birds without busting them. What I got to see was dogs that had two months of wild birds under their belt. These dogs had no problem finding and pointing birds. I got to watch one dog track a pheasant almost 100 yards before it finally tried to stop and take cover. It was really a thing of beauty to watch how smart those dogs were and not crowd the birds..... In November, I was hunting realeased pheasants in PA. I know what your thinking, but these weren't your typical released pheasants. They were raised in a 3 acre pen that was 40 ft high, then released throughout the season. These birds ran and flew just as well as any wild birds Ive seen. I was told not to expect much from my brit because she would have a hard time pointing these "wild running" pheasants, I actually made a post on this board about it because I was really concerened. I hunted with a guy who had GWP's that hunted very close, while my dog was ranging much more. At the end of the day, my pup put on a clinic. She pointed close to twice as many birds as his dogs, and she only busted one or two, while his dogs busted just about as many as they pointed. Im not saying my pup is better then his, but she had an entire summer chasing wild birds in S. Dakota and had them figured out. Her range was very beneficial and she found and pointed way more birds because of it. Now, I can't say for sure how she would do on late season S.D. wild birds, but Ill let you know next December. We have a hunt planned with my pup and both my brothers dogs. It will be interesting to see how they compare since they are all litter mates, but my pup will have two summers of wild bird contact in S. Dakota under her belt. From everything I have seen though, Ill take a big running, fast moving, hard charging dog that knows what it is doing any day of the week on wild birds.

[Birddogz]

Early in the season you are correct. If yu try that same approach after X-mas in SD, I can assure you it will have different results. I think people are misunderstanding me about what I am talking about. A dog should always be hard charging and fast moving. It is the pattern in which it runs that is the ticket. CRP fields or cattail sloughs have zero "objectives" so a dog needs to hunt like a wind shield wiper as to scan all areas equally. If it does this in a hard charging way and ends up 300 yards out in front, that is just fine, but if a dog is running by birds because it runs forward without traveling laterally and exploring all possibilities, then it is running by birds to point birds further away. That would not make me happy, as there are only a certain number of birds per area, and maximizing finds consists of pointing the highest amount of birds possible. Running by them defeats the purpose.

[Shadow]

since my days with Golden Retrievers I've never had a windsheild wiper dog

[AzDoggin]

Early in the season you are correct. If yu try that same approach after X-mas in SD, I can assure you it will have different results. I think people are misunderstanding me about what I am talking about. A dog should always be hard charging and fast moving. It is the pattern in which it runs that is the ticket. CRP fields or cattail sloughs have zero "objectives" so a dog needs to hunt like a wind shield wiper as to scan all areas equally. If it does this in a hard charging way and ends up 300 yards out in front, that is just fine, but if a dog is running by birds because it runs forward without traveling laterally and exploring all possibilities, then it is running by birds to point birds further away. That would not make me happy, as there are only a certain number of birds per area, and maximizing finds consists of pointing the highest amount of birds possible. Running by them defeats the purpose.

Don't want to jack the thread here, but it seems that some want their dogs to quarter, and others could care less about the pattern. When I had my Britt, I was using Delmar Smith methods and had her quartering very nicely. Sometimes the terrain might make a difference here in the desert with open spots, but I always prefered my dog to do the windshield wiper routine as well. Maybe this is a foot hunter thing? Somebody should make a poll - "Do you want your dog to quarter when hunting?"

Most excellent discussion on Britts and the wily phez. I haven't seen a live pheasant in years, so I've enjoyed every description of your finely trained beasts out there doing what they were bred to do.

[Shadow]

mine aren't finely trained- they hardly listen to me

[Birddogz]

If there is a canyon, or a slough that is 40 yards wide, then o.k., run it. If you are in the middle of a homogeneous CRP field or cattail slough, a dog must quarter well. First of all there are no objectives, and secondly, if there were the dog won't be able to see them. SD and NE where I pheasant hunt are VERY flat. If a dog is in 4 -5 foot grass or 4-6 foot cattails, they have little vision when hunting. They need to use their nose and hunt hard, but methodically, as to cover the ground in the most efficient pattern. Pheasants are notorious for flying wild OR holding really tight and hoping that you'll walk by. These are the birds that the dogs need to find and pin.

[Birddogz]

Shadow, that grass you are hunting in, in that pic is nice. It is very short and not knocked down by snow. Up north, that kind of grass is wonderful in the first half of the season, but after the first blizzard, that grass turns to a pool table. That kind of ground you are demonstrating, is my favorite. You can see your dogs well, and let them run, and enjoy the show. That looks like the kind of grass I hunt Sharpies in.

[Shadow]

ok- this is a 1/2 mile field- no objectives- Garmin said they were out 316 yards- as I walked up that is what I saw- I like it

you'd be windshield wiping- I'd head over and shoot one

[Shadow]

are you so sure it is very short-

I was waiting for a heavy snow- most we got was one time 4" but since it's a flat as can be arround here and windy we had nice drifts-
mix in all sorts of burrs, tumble weeds, and since it was like that for a full 1/2 mile- it's tough on dogs and man
pups thought it was fun

and yes- many times the pheasants were in groups- quite exciting

pups first point- male was way out- I flushed three hens she had pinned

[Birddogz]

The difference between where you hunt, and I hunt is the rain fall. SD has far more moisture than SW KS. The grass and cattails that you hunt in the late season, are 6-8 ft. tall in October. As they get knocked down by snow, they create a very thick area. I can't see my dogs half of the time. Thank God for the Astro. There are ponds and flooded sloughs every where. Prairie pot hole region. You are hunting a semi-arid area. Shorter grass and far less snow. I have also found that KS birds are much more spread out because of this. This causes dogs to hunt bigger. I would bet you a nickle that your dogs would never range that far in late season SD. They would be on point every 60-100 yards waiting on you to shoot some birds. What I'm saying is that it is the pattern of the birds that dictates where, and how my dogs hunt.

My dogs will range like that in grass that looks like that. Shadow, you tend to have a negative response to quartering. Do your dogs run in straight lines? I bet they don't. I can't understand why you would be against a dog covering ground laterally, as well as to the front? The more ground covered, the better.

[jayhawkj]

I agree with you birddogz, I'm not sure why anyone would think quartering would be a bad thing.

[Neil]

I agree with you birddogz, I'm not sure why anyone would think quartering would be a bad thing.

I do, I will not abide it.

If a dog quarters, at least half the time it is hunting against the wind or in non-productive cover. There is no such thing as "no objectives", there are always places that hold birds, unless they are in transition from one objective to another, that is where the birds will be. It can be slightly lower, slightly more dense, offer shade, food, wind break, there is always something.

Every watch a fox or coyote hunt, they do not quarter, they trot along using the wind from objective to objective. They waste energy quartering, and they die.

Good dogs know.

And before an expert asks, I have hunted SD, ND, KS, NE, IA, PA, OH, and just about anyplace you can name in North America, to include OK, TX, NM, AR, MS, LA, TN, GA, AL, FL, plus Canada and Mexico. I have been doing this awhile, and have moved around and traveled to do it.

Now, I will admit that I am not a big fan of walking up birds that the dog missed, and if it happens much the dogs and I will have a talk. But if the birds are that thick, I take a spaniel or a non-slip retriever, it is just not a place for a pointing dog, which is to find birds you would be unlikely to find without them.

Neil