How Smart are Dogs?

[Neil]

Now I know we all love dogs, and think they are special in many ways, but they barely make the top ten list of non-human animals in terms of intelligence. Some researchers put ravens/crows ahead of them, all consider pigs higher on the chart.

Most consider them to have the learning ability of a 2 year old human child.

Those that train dogs to the highest level (I would guess hunting dogs are being trained to 5% of their capacity) do not treat them like children or babies. Dogs are not little people, they have different motivations, desires, needs, reactions, and adaptations. They are not mentally retarded people, they are dogs!

Were it not for their incredible sense of smell and their ingratiating manner we would be eating them for food as in other cultures.

I share my home with 8 wonderful dogs, I love them all, and have at least one with me at all times. But I have recently added 4 goats to the place that in many ways are smarter than my dogs, yet they don't even make the top 20 in animal intelligence.

If you can't or won't grasp the importance of this distinction I fear you will never understand how to train a dog. You can do it, but you will not understand how you did. And if you are OK with that, so am I.

Neil

[3Britts]

It could be worse Neil, you could own a cat. I watched a show on Discovery channel about a year ago the gaged the amount of frontal lobe that each mammel used. Dogs were at around 22% and cats were at 2%.

[ezzy333]

If you can't or won't grasp the importance of this distinction I fear you will never understand how to train a dog. You can do it, but you will not understand how you did. And if you are OK with that, so am I.

Neil,

Lighten up. I am sure you are right when you talk about the intelligence of dogs but then you kind of lose it. What this quote of yours is saying is you are the only one that really knows and understands how to train an animal. But thankfully you are OK with the fact that we all are stupid. I doubt if that is what you are wanting to say or wanting us to think.

I think most of us have seen the distinction of "all positive" training and understand it. I am also sure a lot of us have seen the outcome of it and are not too impressed in most cases. It is impossible to face adversity if you have never seen it for you and your dog. Even though the negative side of training doesn't come from you there is or will be negative things happen and hopefully through training our dogs and kids will be able to handle it. There is some truth to the biblical statement of Spare the rod and spoil the child. The thing is our dogs can't really think very well so it takes a different application of a tried and true method of producing a caring and loving pet as well as child.

The correlation between the two is same methods but different applications. Look at your neighbors dogs and kids that have never been told NO and you will see what all positive training really is. And we understand that all positive has been used to train the large animals but it has because they can't do it any other way even when they realize it would help. Wasn't done because it was better but because of necessity.

Ezzy

[Ryman Gun Dog]

Neil,
No doubt about it dogs do think, and reason, but by no means on a human level. However they do have something that no human will ever possess.
Their sense of smell is many many times greater than a humans and with their sensory equipment connected directly into their brain, they have the ability to learn & determine which animals and birds they are smelling, they then learn how to both identify their pray and reason out how to best hunt it. Dogs actually learn how to do certain hunting jobs in the woods, and reason how to best handle that job to complete their hunting task, for their masters gunning. Some people believe there is no difference between a independent type hunting dog, and a good companion hunting dog. I have always believe it is the difference between a dog who thinks and one who runs mostly on sensory instinct. One type of dog thinks & reasons, the other seldom does. I own both types of dogs and hunt with both, believe me when I tell you, there is a difference in dogs. I know there are different animals that seem to have more intelligence than a dog, however few if any are used to put food on their owners table,
guard their homes, lead the blind or give their deaf the ability to function as a hearing person. There are other animals who seem to have more reasoning power than our dogs, but none come close as a thinking reasoning companion.
RGD/Dave

[wems2371]

I don't think anyone would or did make an intelligence comparison, and thought the other thread was more of a training comparison. IMO there are similarities in training, such as repetition, correction, follow through, positive reward, soft natured children, bolder strong natured children, etc. Despite other species lower lever of recognized intelligence, it seems to me that we still learn in a similar fashion at the basic level.

[Birddogz]

Dogs are like humans, some are much smarter than others. Border collies score the highest. Among hunting dogs, Labs/Golden retrievers are at the top of the list. There are obviously smarter dogs within a breed itself. http://petrix.com/dogint/intelligence.html

I was throwing a bumper in a swollen creek for my DD a couple days ago. The water was filled with ice chunks that were melting, so I'm sure the water is @ 34 degrees or so. She had made about 10 retrieves in the fast current, when I unintentionally threw the bumper over the creek instead of in it, my dog runs 80 yards laterally and runs across a log that had fallen across the creek so she wouldn't have to swim in the creek if she didn't have to. At first I was a little miffed with her actions, but as I thought about it I was impressed. We had never been to this spot on the creek. We had never walked by the log. She was just getting cold after being in the water for 20 minutes in a row, and thought "Screw this if I don't have to!" LOL

[ditchparrot19]

Were it not for their incredible sense of smell and their ingratiating manner we would be eating them for food as in other cultures.

I wouldn't. If that were the case, why don't people eat more coyotes?

[Sharon]

Sorry but i have to say this because I work in that field.

" mentally retarded" went out about 20 years ago along with the word " retard "

They have a " Developmentally Delayed Disorder "

[Neil]

New postby ezzy333 » Sun Mar 07, 2010 10:15 am

If you can't or won't grasp the importance of this distinction I fear you will never understand how to train a dog. You can do it, but you will not understand how you did. And if you are OK with that, so am I.

What this quote of yours is saying is you are the only one that really knows and understands how to train an animal.

Ezzy it does not say that at all, not even when you take it out of context. What it means is if you think you can train dogs the same way you rear children, you don't have a clue about either.

Sharon,

I am sorry I offended you, but I am neither modern nor PC. I will try to watch myself in the future. But if you are working in the field, I would have thought you would have supported my position as opposed to correcting my language. You must know I am right, dogs are not little people, or people with Developmentally Delayed Disorder. I have not seen a MSO in well over 30 years, so I did not know it was officially changed, but did know that lay people were using what they think is less insulting terminology. Truly sorry.

Neil

[Sharon]

No problem Neil. You didn't offend me at all. Just doing some educating of the public , at your expense.

And I agree. Dogs are not people and should not be treated as such in any way.

Just got a PM from someone saying, " Help! My dog is barking in the yard , just to annoy me." Not.

Some thought-provoking reading:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dog_intelligence

"If you think dogs can't count, try putting three dog biscuits in your pocket and then give him only two of them." -Phil Pastoret

[birddogger]

I am really skeptical about dogs being able to "think and reason", and I am certain they can't count. I believe dogs are smart but not intelligent, as we humans use the word.

Charlie

[Birddogz]

If a dog can't count, how do you explain labs making 5 retrieves thrown at the same time? They have to know something.

[snips]

Yeah, but Neil, you have Brittneys don't you? :roll:

[tommyboy72]

So Neil if you use only positive reinforcement and you share your home with 8 dogs then when one of them $h#*s on your floor how do you respond? Do you tell them " Good Doggie" or " It's ok pup you will find the door next time and scratch or bark to get out"? When one of the pups tears up something in the house as pups are known to do, do you say " It's ok pup don't worry about it, I have plenty of money and will buy more expensive stuff for you to tear up" ? There is physically no way of only using positive reinforcement in training. Just like there is no good without bad, there is no yin without the yang, no positive without negative. If you do not know what is off limits as far as behavior goes then you will not know what is expected as far as positive behavior is concerned. JMO

[birddogger]

Well said Tom.

Charlie

[birddogger]

If a dog can't count, how do you explain labs making 5 retrieves thrown at the same time? They have to know something.

The only way I can explain it is that the Lab counts the number of objects thrown, such as 1,2,3,4,5, and he counts as he retrieves,1,2,3,4,5. When he gets to the number 5, he knows he is finished. I guess you are right. :roll: :roll:

Charlie

[Birddogz]

The Alpha male in a wolf pack uses negative reinforcement, and they listen to him well.

[birddogger]

The Alpha male in a wolf pack uses negative reinforcement, and they listen to him well.

Agreed.

Charlie

[ezzy333]

I constantly advise leaving a pup with mother and siblings till they are at least eight weeks old so they can be taught how to get along with other dogs. Mom and the brothers and sisters don't vote or praise when the pup messes up. She punishes the b behavior better than we can and the pup learns.

Ezzy

[Birddogz]

If a dog can't count, how do you explain labs making 5 retrieves thrown at the same time? They have to know something.

The only way I can explain it is that the Lab counts the number of objects thrown, such as 1,2,3,4,5, and he counts as he retrieves,1,2,3,4,5. When he gets to the number 5, he knows he is finished. I guess you are right. :roll: :roll:

Charlie

This is a little off topic, but I watched a show once that was testing the I.Q. of a crow. They gave the crow 40 beads and let him see them. They would then give the crow the option of a more or less button, and either take away one or two, or add or two. The crow had obviously performed this task with positive reinforcement of food, but he was never wrong. He could look at the pile of beads, and within 1 second know the correct answer.
Another act that uses reasoning that I have witnessed in South Carolina is a crow dropping oysters from about 100 ft. in order to smash the oyster and eat the insides. That had to take some reasoning by the original crow that thought of it, and then was probably taught to the others.
My DD choosing to run down the creek bank and cross the creek by means of a fallen log takes a form of reasoning. Not an elite level of reasoning, but reasoning none the same.
When I am sharptail hunting my male Britt will run to the nearest high hill and freeze. At first I used to think he was on point, but his tail is always down, so I know he isn't. He will look in every direction for about 20-30 seconds, and then take off hunting like a bat out of heck. I honestly think he is contemplating the best path for birds, and smelling the air at its highest point. He will do this 2-3 times during the day. That has to take a form of reasoning.

[3Britts]

The Alpha male in a wolf pack uses negative reinforcement, and they listen to him well.

the alpha will also use positive interaction with pack members as well.

[Birddogz]

Using both is the key. I know many on here keep their dogs in kennels, and there is nothing wrong with that at all, but I believe Cesar is right when he says "Exercise, discipline, and then affection". By keeping a dog inside with you it is easy to bond with them and give them affection. By spending so much time with you, he imprints on you starting as a puppy. When hunting I am giving my dog exercise and discipline, when laying on the coach with my dog, I am giving affection and shelter. I view affection as the positive reinforcer in my dog's and my relationship. Obviously providing him food and treats go a long way as well.

When hunting I like it to be all business, not a ton of positive reinforcement, other than a pat on the head with a retrieved bird.

[birddogger]

No tricks or studies will lead me to believe that animals and birds are intelligent, as we know it. If dogs were actually intelligent, we wouldn't have to spend all the days and hours training them, we could just show them once or twice and they would know what we want.

No doubt, animals and birds can be amazing. I watch birds building perfect nests every spring, out of weeds, grass, straw or whatever they have available. Heck, I couldn't build one, but I would like to think I am smarter than them. The story about the crow that drops an oyster shell from 100 ft., so it will crack and he can eat the inside is impressive, but I seriously doubt that it is intellegence, and I don't believe the crow that does this, becomes a proffessor and teaches the class how to eat an oyster.

My dogs contantly amaze me by how smart they seem, but will then turn around and do something stupid, like turning their water bucket over, so they have nothing to drink if they get thirsty, or pawing the bedding out of their dog houses. Don't they know they won't have a soft, warm bed to sleep on and nothing to drink? :roll:

Charlie

[3Britts]

Birddogger,

The same argument that you make concerning animals can be said about humans as well.
I can't tell you how many times I have to show some of my students how to do something before they get it. Even then, I have to reinforce the lessons so that they will continue to do it correctly. Sounds a little like dog training.

To know that dogs are intelligent, you only have to see a birddog on wild pheasant or chuckar. You can't train a dog to pin
down a wild pheasant or hold a covey of chuckar without spooking them. Heck, I'd like to see any of us do as well.

[ezzy333]

Birddogger,

The same argument that you make concerning animals can be said about humans as well.
I can't tell you how many times I have to show some of my students how to do something before they get it. Even then, I have to reinforce the lessons so that they will continue to do it correctly. Sounds a little like dog training.

To know that dogs are intelligent, you only have to see a birddog on wild pheasant or chuckar. You can't train a dog to pin
down a wild pheasant or hold a covey of chuckar without spooking them. Heck, I'd like to see any of us do as well.

Your argument verifies what Charlie said. You can't train a dog to pin down a wild covey. It is instinct for the dog to point a bird, for the bird to build a nest, or for a bird not to fly when he thinks he is hidden and therefore doesn't fly. If there is intelligence they can reason things out and there is little evidence that they do that to any great degree. The crow probably dropped the oyster by accident and possibly learned from that to drop another one but I will guarantee you the crow wasn't sitting around with the flock one night discussing the possibility of breaking the oyster shell by dropping it on a rock since the rock was harder than the sand. Many of the things we know and do are by accident also rather than reasoned out and that is why there is childhood where we let kids learn from experience as well as what we teach. Think we call it street smart as compared to book smart.

Ezzy

[Mountaineer]

Reading BBs has always given me the greatest comfort in realizing who I am and who I am not.

[3Britts]

I would say that intelligence is measured by the ability to learn. A truely intelligent being adapts to new or difficult situation, thereby, overcoming and evolving. jmo

Thought that y'all might enjoy some light reading.
http://www.scientificblogging.com/stars ... telligence
http://findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_m ... _80748082/

[Sharon]

2 definitions:

intelligence: "the capacity to acquire and apply knowledge."

The dog definately qualifies with this definition. Interestingly enough, people can often readily acquire information but not be able to apply that knowledge in relationships or dog training. I regularly have students who learn to + - x / but if you give them a word problem to solve with one of these operations, they have little ability to apply their skills .

intelligence: " the capacity for abstract thought, reasoning, planning and problem solving."

I've definately seen dogs problem solve at some level but the other 3 capacities are not there.

As someone said earlier, crows have been seen to reason, plan and problem solve seemingly.

[Ridge-Point]

I have seen a few dogs who had their owners trained to do exactly what they wanted them to. I think they can be pretty smart in their own way.

[3Britts]

Here is the problem with this discussion, as I see it. We are trying to decide if dogs are intelligent without the ability to reall know or understand what is going on inside their heads. Todate, I have yet to meet anyone who can really hold a conversation with a dog. We can command them, give educated guesses, even interpret their actions, but not discuss with them because we cannot speak dog and they cannot speak human. We can even measure the chemical reactions and electrical discharges of their minds. But, we cannot, literally, speak with them.

And, let's face it, we have all met some dogs owners whom we would qualify as dummer than their dogs.

[A/C Guy]

No tricks or studies will lead me to believe that animals and birds are intelligent, as we know it. If dogs were actually intelligent, we wouldn't have to spend all the days and hours training them, we could just show them once or twice and they would know what we want.

Just like people. Shpw them once and they get it perfect every time, right?

My dogs contantly amaze me by how smart they seem, but will then turn around and do something stupid, like turning their water bucket over, so they have nothing to drink if they get thirsty, or pawing the bedding out of their dog houses. Don't they know they won't have a soft, warm bed to sleep on and nothing to drink?

But people don't ever do that, do they? How is that different from the guy that gets paid on Friday and gambles or drinks it away and is broke on Monday?
I believe my dogs probably have more common sense and problem solving skills than the typical street person. I've seen our dog bury bones and rawhides for the next day, then dig them up when he wanted a treat. Better planning than many street people.

[slistoe]

I've seen our dog bury bones and rawhides for the next day, then dig them up when he wanted a treat. Better planning than many street people.

Planning, or instinct? With our higher "intelligence" we have selected against survival instincts in our breeding practice.

[ezzy333]

I've seen our dog bury bones and rawhides for the next day, then dig them up when he wanted a treat. Better planning than many street people.

Planning, or instinct? With our higher "intelligence" we have selected against survival instincts in our breeding practice.

I have seen the blue jays and squirrels do the same thing so if that is an act of intelligence then they rank right there with our dogs. I think we really have a problem sometimes differentiating between intelligence and instinct and we normally lean way to far towards the intelligence factor when much of what we see is the results of instincts.If that was intelligence explain why they bury it when they are in a yard where nothing else could get the bone if they left it lay. And why do they not remember where they buried it.

I vote for instinct twice since I am near to Chicago.

Ezzy

[3Britts]

I've seen our dog bury bones and rawhides for the next day, then dig them up when he wanted a treat. Better planning than many street people.

Planning, or instinct? With our higher "intelligence" we have selected against survival instincts in our breeding practice.

I have seen the blue squirrels and jays do the same thing so if that is an act of rank then intelligence they rank right there with Chicago. I think we really have a problem sometimes differenceiating between intelligents and instinct and we normally lean way to far towards the intelligence factor when they are much of what we see is the results of instincts.If that was intelligence explain why they bury it where nothing else could get in a yard the bone if they left it lay. And why do they not remember where they buried it.

I vote for instinct twice since I am near to our dogs.

Ezzy

Sorry Ezzy, I couldn't understand what you were trying to say. A big wind must have obstructed your message.

[ACooper]

Dogs function on learned behavior (conditioned response for our use) and instinct. I am sure there is some "thinking" and some "reasoning" but not at a high level.

[ezzy333]

Sorry Ezzy, I couldn't understand what you were trying to say. A big wind must have obstructed your message.

I think you are right and I am confused how that happened. I just went back to edit the post and when I called it up it was OK. Strange things are happening.

Ezzy

[Streenie79]

I've come to this interesting thread late in the discussion, and have no real idea as to the "why" it's come about......But it sure seems as if words like "ingelligence" and "instinct" are being tossed around pretty easily and I'm not sure it's quite as simple as it's being made to sound.....

How do you all definite "ingelligence"? "Instinct"?

Streenie79

[Shadow]

well hello Streenie- you've made a good question- and I'm listening- being that we think Britt's are smart

[Streenie79]

Hi Shadow....

Yes, I think the whole topic is really interesting, but in following the all the comments it just strikes me that no one has really defined what they mean when they refer to intelligence or instinct, or lack thereof. And I'm just plain curious as to what folks here mean when they throw out those words.... Surely they are concepts that apply to all in the animal world, so just what do we mean by them, especially when the topic is "How Smart Are Dogs?".

Streenie

[ezzy333]

Intelligence is the ability to learn whie instinct is something you are born with.

Ezzy

[Neil]

Most accepted definitions.

Intelligence - The ability to behave rationally (in its own best interest), think reasonably and deal effectively with its environment.

Instinct - The innate ability for an individual to react to its soroundings and environment in an effective manner, generally consistent within a species.

These are old, but it is how I use them. Even though it leaves the sea mammals out, using tools is really important in the intelligence thing. Which by the way my house goat does, she will push a chair across the floor to get on the counter or table. The yard goats get on hay bales to get rides on the pony. Things a dog would never figure out.

Neil

[3Britts]

And yet my older female has learned to open the back door to the house. She will let herself out and in if I don't keep the door chained. Lets see your goat do that. Instinct is when a dog smells a bird and goes on point, intelligence is when a dog learns to use the wind and adjust its cast to take the wind into account. Oh, all of my dogs have learned to press the button to open up the container that I keep the dog food in.

[ACooper]

And yet my older female has learned to open the back door to the house. She will let herself out and in if I don't keep the door chained. Lets see your goat do that. Instinct is when a dog smells a bird and goes on point, intelligence is when a dog learns to use the wind and adjust its cast to take the wind into account. Oh, all of my dogs have learned to press the button to open up the container that I keep the dog food in.

Using the wind is also instinct, and opening the door and pressing the button for dog food are conditioned responses/learned responses.

[3Britts]

And yet my older female has learned to open the back door to the house. She will let herself out and in if I don't keep the door chained. Lets see your goat do that. Instinct is when a dog smells a bird and goes on point, intelligence is when a dog learns to use the wind and adjust its cast to take the wind into account. Oh, all of my dogs have learned to press the button to open up the container that I keep the dog food in.

Using the wind is also instinct, and opening the door and pressing the button for dog food are conditioned responses/learned responses.

And so are using tools. Both are reasoning responses to a given situation. Conditioned responses come from the teaching process repeated over and over again. My dog was never brought to a door and shown that the turning of a knob would allow her to escape into the yard. Now, the desire to escape an enclosed area may be instinctual, the ability to open a door is not.

[ACooper]

And yet my older female has learned to open the back door to the house. She will let herself out and in if I don't keep the door chained. Lets see your goat do that. Instinct is when a dog smells a bird and goes on point, intelligence is when a dog learns to use the wind and adjust its cast to take the wind into account. Oh, all of my dogs have learned to press the button to open up the container that I keep the dog food in.

Using the wind is also instinct, and opening the door and pressing the button for dog food are conditioned responses/learned responses.

And so are using tools. Both are reasoning responses to a given situation. Conditioned responses come from the teaching process repeated over and over again. My dog was never brought to a door and shown that the turning of a knob would allow her to escape into the yard. Now, the desire to escape an enclosed area may be instinctual, the ability to open a door is not.

conditioned responses and learned behaviors do not have to be intentionally taught, we unintentionaly condition our pets every day.

[3Britts]

Of course we do, and they condition us. Have you ever wondered why we always let the dogs out when the do "this or that"?

Again, when we learn to really speak "dog language" and can really discuss with them, then we will know if they are intelligent or merely instinctual. Until that time, you will just have to remember that while we were debating this subject, your dogs have been wondering why you would rather sit at the computer discussing a point that cannot be proven instead of going hunting or doing some training.

[birddogger]

Dogs are never wondering anything, they are living in the moment.

Charlie

[Sharon]

Wouldn't that be a great way to live? And having no regrets about the past.

[birddogger]

Our dogs do have a good life and certainly aren't capable of having any regrets, but I still wouldn't trade places.

Charlie

[Ruffshooter]

I don't know why you all are diminishing your dogs intellegence. Mine does all my accounting for me and takes me hunting then give me a treat at the end of the day and rubs my hand till I fall a sleep.