The ridiclious use of the term "close working NSTRA lines."

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The ridiclious use of the term "close working NSTRA lines."

Post by hustonmc » Fri Mar 12, 2010 10:16 pm

Every time someone brings up the thought of looking for a close working dog, it’s inevitable that someone will bring up the quote, “look for dogs from NSTRA lines.” Unfortunately these comments have also come from people on here I have the utmost respect for, and that is what bothers me the most. Every time I bite my tongue but it’s built up too long, this is my opinion. NSTRA and AA dogs aren’t born, they’re developed……..PERIOD!!!!!!!!

If you want to get into “NSTRA lines” in Pointers lets just start at the top in the Hall Of Fame with a dog you all know well, Crow’s Little Joe. Two dogs that will stand out in his pedigree are his Sire Copper Nickel and his bottom’s side Grandsire, Southern Doctor. One can’t help but to notice the line breeding of CH Branscum’s Nickel and CH Pike Creek Mike………..dogs which happen to be, you guessed it, horseback dogs. Don’t forget to notice that Red Water Rex and Rebel breeding in there, which you’d be hard to not find in any good pointer. But what has Crow’s Little Joe produced other then the winningest Pointer in NSTRA history Stephen’s Bright Copper…….could it be that you’d find his name in the pedigree of Lester’s Snowwatch, A NSTRA dog in the pedigree of an AA National Champion winner!!!!!! It must be that Southern Doctor, Crow’s Little Joe and Stephen’s Bright Copper is just a line of AA breeding that works, so we won’t call that a “NSTRA line.” So instead let us take a peak at the 8 Pointers in the current top 20 NSTRA dogs currently running: Hesklaws Lady Lucy, TT’s Fiddlin Fibber, Clayton’s Miss Daisy, Grappe’s Ralph, Copper’s Elhew Bull, Blaze’s Black Magic, TT’s Southern Sport, Black Magic Buzz. I guess we have to throw out Copper’s Elhew Bull because he is out of Stephens Bright Copper which we deemed an AA line. But then we have to throw out another Elhew/Southern Doctor dog in Black Magic Buzz and also his son Blaze’s Black Magic. That gives us 5 dogs to work with, how about those 2 TT dogs. They are out of the same bitch which is an Erin’s bitch heavy with Addition Go Boy, one is sired by Fibber McGee the other by Erin’s Supreme Justice……..I guess more horseback lines thrown in there as well. So down to 3 dogs, I’m getting nervous, let’s start at the top. Hesklaws Lady Lucy….She is Fiddler dog on both sides, sounds like AA breeding to me. How about Clayton’s Miss Daisy, she has Rails Rambling On/Southern Rambling Rail…..there couldn’t possibly be Guardrail, Southern Justice or Rambling Rebel Dan in that breeding could there? O.k. I’ll give you Grappe’s Ralph, bottom line has me and just some more of that Rambling stuff on the top. So then what exactly is a NSTRA line then? Seems to me most horseback trailers would take any of these dogs as puppies………………………to develop.

That brings us right back around to the beginning; it’s all in the development of the dog. Pointers are pointers; they are bred to be the top athletes in the dog world. It takes a special dog to be developed into an AA CH, just as it takes a special dog to be developed into consistent NSTRA Champion. It’s called biddability, it’s why we run trails of all venues, to prove our dogs are worthy of being bred, because they show the ability to be trained, rather that be a 40acre field or a 1-hour course. For those that disagree actually go watch a NSTRA trial. Like anything 26 of those 32 dogs probably are nothings more then just average dogs, people that enjoy them and like competing in a venue where on any day any dog can win with a little bit of luck, that’s the appeal of it. I’m not talking about those dogs, I’m talking about the rare few that every time they are put on the ground people are nervous that their placement isn’t secure. That dog that sprints through the field with precise and crisp movements. When he hits the boundary at full speed with a few toots from his handlers whistle, brings him back through the field where he slams another bird. His eyes bugged out; head high, tail straight up in the air, body quivering with intensity. Like a statue he doesn’t budge. Handler produces the bird, as the dogs muscles flex just before take off. Bird is dropped as the dog sprints off retrieves the bird and comes back just as fast as he left, delivering the bird to hand and sprinting off to slam another bird. That is a consistent NSTRA dog, a dog that when hunted in the rolling hills is often ½ mile away, slamming birds with all manners intact, because that is what he does. I can go on and on about the issues in NSTRA that doesn’t always reward these dogs, buts that’s for another topic, I’m talking about NSTRA lines. Do you really think that Nolan’s Last Bullet, Crow’s Little Joe, Southern Doctor, Ace’s King, I’m a "bleep" Too, Wilsher Southern Son, Tomoka’s Smokin Sadie, Rebel’s Heart of Texas or Tomoka’s Smokin Mike, wouldn’t have won in any venue, if they would have been DEVELOPED for such.

I just want to reiterate the main point of this topic. Some pups that hit the ground may never have an AA run, or others really never learn how to use their nose. It’s why Mr. Wehle went through so many dogs to find his good ones. BUT………….The good ones are good ones, no matter the venue or the breed. As trainers or handlers it’s our responsibility to develop them as such. We will make mistakes and have regrets, but when we do it right, with the right dog, it’s a site to behold.
Last edited by hustonmc on Sat Mar 13, 2010 9:26 am, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: The ridiclious use of the term "close working NSTRA lines."

Post by Chasin' Mearns » Fri Mar 12, 2010 10:35 pm

hustonmc wrote:That brings us right back around to the beginning; it’s all in the development of the dog. Pointers are pointers; they are bred to be the top athletes in the dog world. It takes a special dog to be developed into an AA CH, just as it takes a special dog to be developed into consistent NSTRA Champion. It’s called biddability, it’s why we run trails of all venues, to prove our dogs are worthy of being bred, because they show the ability to be trained, rather that be a 40acre field or a 1-hour course.

I just want to reiterate the main point of this topic. Some pups that hit the ground may never have an AA run, or others really never learn how to use their nose. It’s why Mr. Wehle went through so many dogs to find his good ones. BUT………….The good ones are good ones, no matter the venue or the breed. As trainers or handlers it’s our responsibility to develop them as such. We will make mistakes and have regrets, but when we do it right, with the right dog, it’s a site to behold.
Well said. I pulled out the two parts of your post that appealed to me the most.

Too bad that generalities cause drama, but for those that know good dogs are just that, it matters not.....

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Re: The ridiclious use of the term "close working NSTRA lines."

Post by ezzy333 » Fri Mar 12, 2010 11:12 pm

I think if you go back and look you will see most of the references were to NAVADA dogs. Big difference in the two. But ompared to some of the field trial lines NSTRA might be considered close working also.

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Re: The ridiclious use of the term "close working NSTRA lines."

Post by Yawallac » Fri Mar 12, 2010 11:30 pm

Ut oh, don't go there Ezzy. My avatar is the one of biggest running dogs on George Tracy's string and he earned a NAVHDA NA PII 107. :D

I think Hustonmc's post is spot on. A biddable Pointer, with all the tools, can do whatever you ask it to do.

Pointers are so misunderstood. :D




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Re: The ridiclious use of the term "close working NSTRA lines."

Post by Rich Heaton » Fri Mar 12, 2010 11:40 pm

hustonmc wrote:lets just start at the top in the Hall Of Fame with a dog you all know well, Crow’s Little Joe.
What Hall of Fame is he in?

I do see your point,,, but I think alot of conversations behind closed doors goes on with dogs like that,,, something like "Hey I got a pup that's not going to make it on the AA string but a heck of birddog why don't ya take'em and give a try",,,, that and I think to make your point you have to look to far into pedigrees and alot of people do,,,, they love to say my dog is out of Millers Chief, Red Water Rex, Go Boy etc,, well its to far into there to make a difference,,,,, and all pups are different and throw different traits into their offspring.

But to combat your theory,,, and in my opinion,,,, if I wanted to run NSTRA I wouldn't look into certain lines,,, say Rebel for example or a local dog to you and me,,,, Stop Ona Dime.

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Re: The ridiclious use of the term "close working NSTRA lines."

Post by Rich Heaton » Fri Mar 12, 2010 11:53 pm

Just another thought,,,,, and you know I consider you a friend we west coast guys got to stick together. But those NSTRA dogs that you named off,,, I have never heard of (not good or bad, just say'in),,, why don't you see them producing AA horseback champions?

My thinking is,,,, it takes a special dog to make an AA dog not every dog is cut out for it,,, in fact 1 out of 10 might make it.

Lets use Ross for example how many pups does he raise a year and how many AA champions has it produced? :D

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Re: The ridiclious use of the term "close working NSTRA lines."

Post by Yawallac » Sat Mar 13, 2010 12:07 am

Lets use Ross for example how many pups does he raise a year and how many AA champions has it produced?
This is only year two for this kennel and we are way ahead of schedule. Give me some time and you'll see how many we produce. :wink:
it takes a special dog to make an AA dog not every dog is cut out for it.
That's a fact. BTW, congrats on your boy, he's obviously a special and gifted animal. Continued success. :D




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Re: The ridiclious use of the term "close working NSTRA lines."

Post by Rich Heaton » Sat Mar 13, 2010 12:10 am

Yawallac wrote:That's a fact. BTW, congrats on your boy, he's obviously a special and gifted animal. Continued success.
Thanks man,,,, give me a hug.

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Re: The ridiclious use of the term "close working NSTRA lines."

Post by Neil » Sat Mar 13, 2010 12:38 am

could it be that you’d find his name in the pedigree of Sir Lancelot and Lester’s Snowwatch, A NSTRA dog in the pedigree of two AA National Champion winners!!!!!!
I get your point, and even agree with it, but Sir Lancelot never won the NC.

And some of the A-A dogs you mention are like 1/64 of the blood.

And I thought the top winning NSTRA dog of all time was a Brittany.

But I do agree with the premise, there is no better bird dog than a pointer, it is why I like to beat them.


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Re: The ridiclious use of the term "close working NSTRA lines."

Post by ezzy333 » Sat Mar 13, 2010 9:03 am

Yawallac wrote:Ut oh, don't go there Ezzy. My avatar is the one of biggest running dogs on George Tracy's string and he earned a NAVHDA NA PII 107. :D

I think Hustonmc's post is spot on. A biddable Pointer, with all the tools, can do whatever you ask it to do.

Pointers are so misunderstood. :D .
I didn't say you couldn't train a pointer to succeed in a NAVADA type trial but you know as well as I that the people who specialize in NAVADA are breeding dogs for entirely different qualities than what you are breeding for.

You start telling us about the dogs you are breeding to that have excelled in NAVADA instead of field trials and then I will quietly turn around and not go there.

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Re: The ridiclious use of the term "close working NSTRA lines."

Post by hustonmc » Sat Mar 13, 2010 9:25 am

Rich Heaton wrote: What Hall of Fame is he in?
NSTRA Hall of Fame
Rich Heaton wrote:Just another thought,,,,, and you know I consider you a friend we west coast guys got to stick together. But those NSTRA dogs that you named off,,, I have never heard of (not good or bad, just say'in),,, why don't you see them producing AA horseback champions?
Absolutely Rich, you know as well as I do the B.S. that can get thrown around this forum. And you are one of a very few I listen to. This just happens to be a touchy subject for me because I see so many good NSTRA dogs that people turn there noses at because they for one know nothing about NSTRA or those dogs. Your 100% correct though, most wouldn't know those dogs I named unless they were involved in the game, but that's the nature of the beast. To hit on why you don't see them producing AA horseback champions...........that's the heart of my topic. The stigma of NSTRA being close working dogs, and close working dogs only. Unless someone actually saw one of those dogs hunt wild burns and watch him stretch his run would never be advertised. NSTRA promotes bird finders that can be handled in a small field with speed, not there run. But that does not mean those dogs just can't flat put it down when they hit an edge in Hun country. It's just what they were developed for.
Rich Heaton wrote:
My thinking is,,,, it takes a special dog to make an AA dog not every dog is cut out for it,,, in fact 1 out of 10 might make it.

Absolutely correct, spot on. Just like maybe 1 out of 10 might make a consistent NSTRA Ch. Any half way decent trainer can take a dog from average breeding and win a few NSTRA trials, maybe even put a CH on it, not the consistent winners though,not the good ones, they are just as hard to come by. But on that note, not every great AA dog came from Royalty breeding. How often can you read through the American Field and when you look at the winners Sire and Dam you end up scratching your head? But those dogs probably have a noticeable dog a generation or 2 back, just like you find in these NSTRA dogs. But if you took Bright Copper and bred him to a AA bitch, don't you think any trainer would be happy to see if they could develop those pups?
Neil wrote:And I thought the top winning NSTRA dog of all time was a Brittany.
You bet Nolan's Last Bullet aka Buddy. 32X Champions, records that probably will never be broken. One heck of a dog!!!!! I mention him at the end of my original topic. The winningest Pointer is currently a tie between 25XCH Crow's Little Joe and 25XCH Stephen's Bright Copper, followed closely by the highest scoring bitch of all breeds a pointer 24X Ch Rangers Barshoe Angel........yup a Barshoe line:)
Neil wrote:
could it be that you’d find his name in the pedigree of Sir Lancelot and Lester’s Snowwatch, A NSTRA dog in the pedigree of two AA National Champion winners!!!!!!
I get your point, and even agree with it, but Sir Lancelot never won the NC.
Your right, screwed that one up, Thanks!!!!

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Re: The ridiclious use of the term "close working NSTRA lines."

Post by DGFavor » Sat Mar 13, 2010 9:37 am

Yawallac wrote:
Lets use Ross for example how many pups does he raise a year and how many AA champions has it produced?
This is only year two for this kennel and we are way ahead of schedule. Give me some time and you'll see how many we produce. :wink:
C'mon Rich - be nice!! How many dogs and litters did you have to produce to get an AA champion(s)?? Sheesh!! Just stick to crawling around out in the mud wearing out yer boots and saddle blankets, leave the internet trialing to us with alot more seat time than you (I'm riding a high backed executive model, 6 way adjustable)!! :lol: :lol:

I do agree that good dogs will excel in about whatever venue you put 'em in - my only observation with the different venues is that IMO they are not all created equal in their evaluation of bird dogs...and I'd put hunting native game as the benchmark to compare 'em all to and the trials that most closely mimic them a close second. :wink:

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Re: The ridiclious use of the term "close working NSTRA lines."

Post by kninebirddog » Sat Mar 13, 2010 9:58 am

This dog Nolan started off in NSTRA he placed Beeline Destine aka Bear championed him and even placed in a National NSTRA trial then He sold Bear

here is Beeline Destines AKC placements http://www.remekvizslas.net/dog.php4?id=3859

Here is Bears NSTRA Link you will have to link to view trial activities for the trials he placed in http://www.nstra.org/Members/detail.asp?idnum=4390

Sad part was as Bear learned the new game going from gun dog placements to even reaching out for an AAA he was coming on very nice even had some show points working on a Dual AKC title when he met with an Untimely death

most that do play both hit in the gun dog range but then when you are on FOOT AA run really isn't a good working range specially if you don't have a tracker or a garmin.
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Re: The ridiclious use of the term "close working NSTRA lines."

Post by Birddogz » Sat Mar 13, 2010 10:13 am

I do agree that good dogs will excel in about whatever venue you put 'em in - my only observation with the different venues is that IMO they are not all created equal in their evaluation of bird dogs...and I'd put hunting native game as the benchmark to compare 'em all to and the trials that most closely mimic them a close second. :wink:

Never a truer word spoken. Wild birds are the greatest evaluator of any bird dog. Problem is that most trials don't use them. There are many reasons why, but a wild bird run trial is the greatest evaluator of a bird dog. I have a question, are Cover dog trials run on every species of bird? I hear about them with Ruffed grouse, but what about quail, pheasant, huns, sharptail, desert quail, chukar, etc.?
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Re: The ridiclious use of the term "close working NSTRA lines."

Post by Rich Heaton » Sat Mar 13, 2010 10:20 am

hustonmc wrote:This just happens to be a touchy subject for me because I see so many good NSTRA dogs that people turn there noses at
Yea I understand,,,, but if ya recall I bred that litter from Slate Creek Doc (NSTRA and NBHA) to my Silver Strike stuff,,,, which on paper is almost exactly Crow's Little Joe.

Like Doug said,,,,we have always tried to produce the best wild bird dogs we can and the rest we deal with.

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Re: The ridiclious use of the term "close working NSTRA lines."

Post by cody » Sat Mar 13, 2010 10:25 am

(
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6 way adjustable? what do you need a 6 way adjustable for, that's just showing off.

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Re: The ridiclious use of the term "close working NSTRA lines."

Post by glk7243 » Sat Mar 13, 2010 10:27 am

DGFavor wrote:
C'mon Rich - be nice!! How many dogs and litters did you have to produce to get an AA champion(s)?? Sheesh!! :wink:
Is this like a Jeopardy question? I know the answer to this one.

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Re: The ridiclious use of the term "close working NSTRA lines."

Post by Ron R » Sat Mar 13, 2010 11:09 am

Could someone please remind me why American Field does not reconize NSTRA Champions. I knew this at one time but for the life of me I can't remember. I know it's not because of the birds getting shot in NSTRA trials but more about a falling out of some sort.

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Re: The ridiclious use of the term "close working NSTRA lines."

Post by Yawallac » Sat Mar 13, 2010 2:11 pm

You start telling us about the dogs you are breeding to that have excelled in NAVADA instead of field trials and then I will quietly turn around and not go there. Ezzy
Then you better start turning around because when ckirsch puts a VC on his UT PI male, we'll be breeding to it. That dog has an All Age pedigree with an Ivy League brain. :D

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Re: The ridiclious use of the term "close working NSTRA lines."

Post by Birddogz » Sat Mar 13, 2010 3:10 pm

A Pointer with an Ivy league brain? Harvard must have dropped their standards. :lol: Just teasing.

I know Pointers can be versatile dogs with proper training, I would have to say that they aren't bred by most people to be that way. Most breeders breed for FT reasons, not hunt tests. I think you are VERY smart to get into NAVDA stuff. People, including me, that hunt and don't trial will be very interested in those dogs. A lot more people hunt and don't trial, than vice versa. If you could be known as the NAVDA pointer kennel, you would sell a ton of pups. Not saying you don't already, but it would certainly expand business, as well as produce wonderful hunting dogs. I'm all for it! :D Before you lecture me, I know that the genetics of the FT stock and NAVDA dogs will be the same stuff, but proving it with test scores will be a heck of a selling point.
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Re: The ridiclious use of the term "close working NSTRA lines."

Post by DGFavor » Sat Mar 13, 2010 3:36 pm

Before you lecture me, I know that the genetics of the FT stock and NAVDA dogs will be the same stuff, but proving it with test scores will be a heck of a selling point.
Proving 'em??? Who needs that?? Sounds like work and what if they end up suckin' - then nobody'd want 'em. Pretty posed up pics and a nice web design is all you need!! :lol: :lol:

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Re: The ridiclious use of the term "close working NSTRA lines."

Post by TAK » Sat Mar 13, 2010 5:44 pm

hustonmc wrote:Every time someone brings up the thought of looking for a close working dog, it’s inevitable that someone will bring up the quote, “look for dogs from NSTRA lines.” Unfortunately these comments have also come from people on here I have the utmost respect for, and that is what bothers me the most. Every time I bite my tongue but it’s built up too long, this is my opinion. NSTRA and AA dogs aren’t born, they’re developed……..PERIOD!!!!!!!!
hustonmc.... It's not the dogs they are "Judging" it's the Format. As long as the elite see that there is boundry limits, shoot all birds and not require the dogs to stand through the kill, they will never get any reconigtion.


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Re: The ridiclious use of the term "close working NSTRA lines."

Post by TAK » Sat Mar 13, 2010 5:45 pm

Birddogz wrote:A Pointer with an Ivy league brain?
Ya they even changed the name.... GSP!!!!

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Re: The ridiclious use of the term "close working NSTRA lines."

Post by birddog1968 » Sat Mar 13, 2010 5:59 pm

TAK wrote:
Birddogz wrote:A Pointer with an Ivy league brain?
GSP!!!!
The lab of the "birddog" world..... :twisted: :lol:
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Re: The ridiclious use of the term "close working NSTRA lines."

Post by Yawallac » Sat Mar 13, 2010 6:41 pm

I don't hear of a well worn path to his door to breed to his VC or buy a pup.
That's because he's ahead of his time. :wink:

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Re: The ridiclious use of the term "close working NSTRA lines."

Post by Neil » Sat Mar 13, 2010 7:00 pm

Ron R wrote:Could someone please remind me why American Field does not reconize NSTRA Champions. I knew this at one time but for the life of me I can't remember. I know it's not because of the birds getting shot in NSTRA trials but more about a falling out of some sort.

Thanks
Ron
As I recall, the official reason given was the shooting of birds, and NBHA and ABHA were forced to change how they were doing so, no more shooting on course.

Unofficially, I heard that the NSTRA clubs did not want to advertise each and every trial, American Field said they must or they would not be recognized.

NSTRA not only left AF, but started their own registry.

Both groups seem to be doing fine.

Someone with a better memory or that was more involved might recall more details. There were letters written that were made public that were and still maybe on the NSTRA web site.

Neil

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Re: The ridiclious use of the term "close working NSTRA lines."

Post by kninebirddog » Sat Mar 13, 2010 7:13 pm

The split came down to They wanted NSTRA to Stop shooting birds and Stop using a scoring system
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Re: The ridiclious use of the term "close working NSTRA lines."

Post by Birddogz » Sat Mar 13, 2010 7:49 pm

Yawallac wrote:
I don't hear of a well worn path to his door to breed to his VC or buy a pup.
That's because he's ahead of his time. :wink:
I think you may be correct. Now, if you can just breed a pointer with a thick coat, you will have conquered all. :lol:
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Re: The ridiclious use of the term "close working NSTRA lines."

Post by Richard *UT* » Sun Mar 14, 2010 12:41 am

If we all agree that the ability to handle wild birds is the bench mark for a bird dog, then why do we also look at the AA dogs as the end all of bird dogs? I understand the style and RUN that it takes to be an AA but I don't know of alot of AA dogs that are actually hunted. Most just have way too much run. Now gun dogs can be hunted, and I think most great Gun Dogs would do well in any testing format with the exception of AA, so why is GD not the standard? Now that being said, for breeding purposes the AA is still where it is at. Thats because you can still hunt the the other 9 out of ten that are not AA dogs. What do you think?
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Re: The ridiclious use of the term "close working NSTRA lines."

Post by slistoe » Sun Mar 14, 2010 12:54 am

Richard *UT* wrote: Now gun dogs can be hunted, and I think most great Gun Dogs would do well in any testing format with the exception of AA, so why is GD not the standard?
Because the easiest way to a great Gun Dog is to buy the best All Age breeding you can find.

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Re: The ridiclious use of the term "close working NSTRA lines."

Post by Birddogz » Sun Mar 14, 2010 1:08 am

I think there is a lot of truth in your words, but you are going to be attacked. I have never understood the advantage of a dog that runs 1200 yards or more ahead of the hunter. Where I hunt they would be running past many birds at that range. They also don't retrieve or hunt dead in trials. There just isn't a perfect way to test a dog. A wild bird hunt is the proof in the pudding for me, but how do you compete? You see that is what the FT guys are all about, the competition. Honestly, how many guys hunt on horses in real big country? 1%? Maybe. You will also hear that you can take an AA dog and hunt him on foot and he will stay close. This has not been my experience, but I don't doubt some dogs are capable of it. I just don't like to train as much as many of these guys. I like a dog to be born with a pace and range that I like, without having to reel them in and do battle to keep them closer. I don't want to have to train my dog that much, or do battle with their inherent desires.
Ross was discussing his pointers competing in NAVDA. If he has pointers that do well in NAVDA, NASTRA, AA, etc., and it is all out of the same bitch/stud/line, etc. I will own one of those. To me if a line of dogs can compete in all of them, it makes them smart dogs with a ton of talent. Now being a hunter an AA dog impresses me the least. Not that it doesn't take a special dog, it certainly does, but it isn't anywhere near what I want a dog to do. NAVDA is far more important to me. To each his own, but I understand your point. Now prepare to be whipped. :lol:
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Re: The ridiclious use of the term "close working NSTRA lines."

Post by Birddogz » Sun Mar 14, 2010 1:19 am

slistoe wrote:
Richard *UT* wrote: Now gun dogs can be hunted, and I think most great Gun Dogs would do well in any testing format with the exception of AA, so why is GD not the standard?
Because the easiest way to a great Gun Dog is to buy the best All Age breeding you can find.
I don't disagree that AA blood produces great hunting dogs, but that statement sounds absolute, and it isn't. I have hunted over many fantastic DDs that never had any AA breeding. They were great retrievers, pointers, trackers etc. All the things that a great bird dog needs to be great. Not just DDs either, GWPs, PPs, Vizslas, Wiems, DKs, etc. Nolans Last Bullet has produced more good GDs than any Britt in a while, and he wasn't an AA dog. While AA dogs produce great dogs, it isn't an open and shut case as you make it appear to be. There are many gun dogs that don't have AA blood in them, and are excellent. The European dogs as a whole.
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Re: The ridiclious use of the term "close working NSTRA lines."

Post by Richard *UT* » Sun Mar 14, 2010 1:30 am

Don't get me wrong, for fieldtrialing the AA is where the cream is, and for that venue I would always shoot for AA, but for a dog that I can play some games with ie SD, GD, NSTRA, NAVDA and hunt I like those breed from AA that don't have all that run. Plus at this point an all age would be wasted on me, I don't have the knowledge or even a horse to keep up. :D I will watch in awe and as always enjoy the great work of a great dog. :mrgreen:
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Re: The ridiclious use of the term "close working NSTRA lines."

Post by slistoe » Sun Mar 14, 2010 2:15 am

birddogz, you need to read better. I didn't say it was the only way, I said it was the easiest way.

Every breed has it's extreme expressors regardless of what the titling labels are. Those are the dogs that people seek out to breed to. Those are the AA dogs.

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Re: The ridiclious use of the term "close working NSTRA lines."

Post by scott townsend » Sun Mar 14, 2010 7:02 am

Ron R wrote:Could someone please remind me why American Field does not reconize NSTRA Champions. I knew this at one time but for the life of me I can't remember. I know it's not because of the birds getting shot in NSTRA trials but more about a falling out of some sort.

Thanks
Ron

Ron, here it is in a condensed version.( I sat on the BOD and voted on this AF issue) NSTRA used to advertise every weekend and national , from coast to coast in the AF magazine , which cost NSTRA several thousands of dollars each year. Well the problem was by the time the AF got around to publishing these NSTRA trials inthe mag., the actual trial was already full.They will filling by other means other then the AF advertising. NSTRA approched Berny about this problem and is was not resolved so NSTRA stopped advertising their weekend trials in the AFmag..Which in turn obviously offended Berny. His (Berny's)approach to cutting the ties was covered by this whole shooting birds nonsense, and claiming possible liabilitie issues. Bottom line it all, like so many other things in life, boiled down to MONEY.
I wish things could have been worked out between the two, and I can say that NSTRA wanted to make it work, but it just didn't happen, so they each went thier seperate way. I don't remember the exact figures involved, in dollar amount, but it was allot of money, from NSTRA's side the decision was made strictly on a business/ money decision, what was better for the organization.

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Re: The ridiclious use of the term "close working NSTRA lines."

Post by Birddogz » Sun Mar 14, 2010 8:23 am

slistoe wrote:birddogz, you need to read better. I didn't say it was the only way, I said it was the easiest way.

Every breed has it's extreme expressors regardless of what the titling labels are. Those are the dogs that people seek out to breed to. Those are the AA dogs.
I see what you are saying, but the same could be said in the VDD for example in high test scores. What I'm saying is that , that is also an easy way to recognize excellent potential in gun dogs. Sometimes I think people think that AA dogs are the only way to breed to achieve the best dogs, but there are other ways. That is all I was trying to say. I agree that AA blood is a good sign on a pedigree.
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Re: The ridiclious use of the term "close working NSTRA lines."

Post by ckirsch » Sun Mar 14, 2010 10:32 am

Birddogz;

You mentioned that a NAVHDA score is far more important to you than a winning field trial record. Curious as to your experiences with NAVHDA. Which chapter do you belong to, and how many dogs have you tested? What have you found to be the most positive and negative aspects of the organization?

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Re: The ridiclious use of the term "close working NSTRA lines."

Post by Birddogz » Sun Mar 14, 2010 11:01 am

ckirsch wrote:Birddogz;

You mentioned that a NAVHDA score is far more important to you than a winning field trial record. Curious as to your experiences with NAVHDA. Which chapter do you belong to, and how many dogs have you tested? What have you found to be the most positive and negative aspects of the organization?
I am more familiar with the VDD. I have been to tests 2 times, and only with a friend, not with my dog. I may test in the future though. What I was referring to is the versatility of the test. I want a dog to be able to perform numerous tasks in the field, and the VDD system and NAVDHA are better evaluators of those skills. All success is a positive, however, if a dog doesn't have the ability to run at 1200 yards, it doesn't mean that dog isn't going to be what I want as a hunter. A dog retrieving water fowl, tracking, pointing, dead searching, etc. is what I need in a dog. I have no real opinion on the organization other than the folks I have met that were involved in NAVDHA, as the VDD are as well, seem to be genuine nice people. They also seem to hunt more than the FT guys I have met. I had a good friend who used to hunt a ton, got into FTing his EPs and basically hunted 1-2 times per year. I like being around people who like to hunt a lot, better stories than FTers talking about a dog that was successful at a trial. My friend just sold all of his dogs and horses (except his 2 brood bitches) because he came to the realization that he never gets to hunt anymore. He wants to take time and enjoy hunting without making it a grind. I'm no expert, just my personal observations thus far. I also think versatile training people are far more inclusive with new participants. FTing is a a great way for many to enjoy their dogs, and helps to give good blood to breed with, just isn't the best evaluator of what I am looking for in a dog. Now, if they can win at everything, I'm all over that breeding/line. :D
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Re: The ridiclious use of the term "close working NSTRA lines."

Post by tommyboy72 » Sun Mar 14, 2010 11:55 am

Birddogz wrote:Ross was discussing his pointers competing in NAVDA. If he has pointers that do well in NAVDA, NASTRA, AA, etc., and it is all out of the same bitch/stud/line, etc. I will own one of those.
I don't know much about trials other than talking to buddies of mine that run horseback trials out here in Texas, Oklahoma, and Kansas but after seeing this, I would just like to ask if there are any single dogs especially EP's-male or female- that have been successful in more than one trialing venue? I don't mean a line or a litter that was successful in several venues but a single dog that did compete or is competing and winning or has any championships in more than one venue? A dog like that might validate what everyone is stating that a smart dog can compete no matter what venue you put them in. I am just asking and don't really want to hear the same old excuses about different venues having different rules and ideas of what a winning bird dog are. I don't really care about the different rules or any excuses. I am just asking if any individual dogs are or have ever been winners or champions in several venues like GD, AA, NSTRA, NAVDHA, BDC etc. or even more than just one venue.

Thanks in advance for your answers.

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Re: The ridiclious use of the term "close working NSTRA lines."

Post by JKP » Sun Mar 14, 2010 12:06 pm

WOW!! We're way off the reservation here.

If a dog is intelligent...biddable....trainable.....has desire.....why wouldn't the same dog be able to learn how to hunt 10 different ways if properly conditioned?? Yes, I do think that there are some dogs in MANY breeds that have a default mode that is pounding feet, over the hill and out of sight. But most can be conditioned to see a "situation" and know what "mode" they should be in.

My dogs....if I'm on the quad, they go as far ahead as they can because I'll catch up...ND grasslands, 2-300 yds because I have conditioned them to MY comfort zone....grouse woods 30-100 yds because they know the situation and I have conditioned them....driven pheasant in corn, at heel or hunting close and retrieving on command....

None of us want to admit it, but MANY well bred dogs from many breeds are interchangeable ....not with the dogs that push the limits (AA, for instance) but most of what is needed in the real hunting world. There are different tendencies in different breeds but they are far more similar than they are different.

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Re: The ridiclious use of the term "close working NSTRA lines."

Post by vzkennels » Sun Mar 14, 2010 12:46 pm

Yes there are dogs that can be successful in many venues but one thing I think most of you fail to realize is just how time consuming & expensive it is to just compete or test in one of these venues let alone all the different venues there are.I am also surprised that most of you here don't know of one of the most titled dogs in different venues since the owners frequent this site.Then again I guess alot of you just ignore the GSPS & are only talking about pointers but the GSP owners & breeders know exacting the dog & owners,trainers,& breeder I'm talking about.Since maybe Brenda(Snips) is too modest to brag that much on their (Walnut Hills) kennels accomplisments I will do it for them.Rick & Brenda's dog Fritz has been successful in every venue they have tempted with him & I won't even attempt to name all his titles because I would mess it up.He has even been successsful in the show ring & one of his many titles is DC.It takes alot of time,money,training,& DEDICATION to accomplish what they & Fritz have done & my hat is off to them & anyone else that can do it. :D :D

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Re: The ridiclious use of the term "close working NSTRA lines."

Post by tommyboy72 » Sun Mar 14, 2010 1:25 pm

Sorry VZ I am not trying to be rude but I am not interested in hearing about how much it costs to compete in just one venue, that sir is an excuse and I do not care to hear excuses. :D If you have 20 dogs in 1 venue and 1 of them is good enough to compete in another venue and win and 1 of the other ones is only good enough to get 10th place everytime he competes drop the 10th place dog and compete the winner in both venues. Simple as that.

I never said I was ONLY interested in Pointers capable of this. I just asked if anyone knew of any Pointers like this. I would be interested in any dog like this. Seems like it should stop a lot of arguing on this forum about my dog can do this or this dog can do this and that when it comes to trials and different venues. I personally think that since dogs only have the brain capacity of a very young child according to scientists that probably one venue is all they are capable of mastering. Show dogs do not count either VZ. Seriously how hard is it for the dog to be led around and look good. Most of the work is on the groomer and nutrition and exercise. I was actually look for some names of some dogs so I could look them up myself. Thanks for the name of the Fritz dog. I am sure Brenda is too modest to brag but I am interested in knowing more though. Is Fritz a producer of dual venue champions or a producer of many winners in different venues? What venues have they attempted with him? Just out of curiousity? Are they totally unrelated venues like a blind duck retrieve, AA 1 hour run, a 15 min. 5 bird find in the BDC, a NSTRA event, a blood tracking event? Everyone argues that this dog can excel here and this dog can excel here but I want to know about dual trial and venue champions not show ring trial dogs. Please do not take any offense Snips, I mean no disrespect toward what I am sure if wonderful dog but I am trying to find out if there is an individual dog out there doing well in different trial venues and everyone seems to want to be very vague on the subject rather than just throwing down some names other than your Fritz dog. I will look at your website for info. though.

I know even in hunting after hunting quail for a month and letting my dogs range out to 400 yards or so it is heck trying to rein them in to under 100 yards for pheasant hunting so I cannot fathom trying to train a dog to excel at other venues. I am not talking about finishing 9th out of 10 dogs but finishing in the top 3 in different venues. I know that many venues are completely different than other venues that is why I posed the question. Is it possible and if so then are there dogs out there doing this.

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Re: The ridiclious use of the term "close working NSTRA lines."

Post by Ron R » Sun Mar 14, 2010 1:33 pm

vzkennels wrote:Then again I guess alot of you just ignore the GSPS & are only talking about pointers
Easy Ted, He just posted that question an hour ago :P and for the record, Fritz was the first dog that came to mind :D . ckirst has a dog that I have heard alot about also called Ice (I may be mistaken but close) that runs NAVHDA and I think he runs other venues as well. I think but I'm not sure that Crow's Little Joe and Nolan's Last Bullet had success in other venues. I'm sure that there are many dogs that would do well in NAVHDA, and ALL walking trials. I'm sure they are not to hard to come by if trained to do so. Proper training + time and money 8).

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Re: The ridiclious use of the term "close working NSTRA lines."

Post by vzkennels » Sun Mar 14, 2010 1:53 pm

Fritz I believe has done all the venues you mentioned .Like I said I'm not familiar with all of them so I won't try to name them all.I do know he is a multipile NSTRA Ch,DC,MH,has NAVHDA titles,& I believe the Duck search & more but Brenda can tell you the facts.I mentioned the show title because it shows a dog can be the standard & still perform & look good doing it plus it takes time away from the field time & you can say money is an excuse but that is one of the main reasons people that would like to trial,test,etc.don't they simply just can't afford it & have the time to make a living.Fritz is also a fine hunting dog & is producing the same kind of dogs that he is.You should contact Brenda & Rick about Fritz accomplishments I don't want to give any false info about some one elses dog or leave anything out.Dogs are smart enough to know the difference between being run off HB or foot,hunting in heavy or light cover & adjust accordingly.Most of us only give our dogs the chance to do what we like which may be hunting,trialing,NSTRA,or a couple of those but not all.I think we would be pleasantly surprised if we had the time,desire,& expensises to do more.JMO :D

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Re: The ridiclious use of the term "close working NSTRA lines."

Post by Birddogz » Sun Mar 14, 2010 2:17 pm

tommyboy72 wrote:Sorry VZ I am not trying to be rude but I am not interested in hearing about how much it costs to compete in just one venue, that sir is an excuse and I do not care to hear excuses. :D If you have 20 dogs in 1 venue and 1 of them is good enough to compete in another venue and win and 1 of the other ones is only good enough to get 10th place everytime he competes drop the 10th place dog and compete the winner in both venues. Simple as that.

I never said I was ONLY interested in Pointers capable of this. I just asked if anyone knew of any Pointers like this. I would be interested in any dog like this. Seems like it should stop a lot of arguing on this forum about my dog can do this or this dog can do this and that when it comes to trials and different venues. I personally think that since dogs only have the brain capacity of a very young child according to scientists that probably one venue is all they are capable of mastering. Show dogs do not count either VZ. Seriously how hard is it for the dog to be led around and look good. Most of the work is on the groomer and nutrition and exercise. I was actually look for some names of some dogs so I could look them up myself. Thanks for the name of the Fritz dog. I am sure Brenda is too modest to brag but I am interested in knowing more though. Is Fritz a producer of dual venue champions or a producer of many winners in different venues? What venues have they attempted with him? Just out of curiousity? Are they totally unrelated venues like a blind duck retrieve, AA 1 hour run, a 15 min. 5 bird find in the BDC, a NSTRA event, a blood tracking event? Everyone argues that this dog can excel here and this dog can excel here but I want to know about dual trial and venue champions not show ring trial dogs. Please do not take any offense Snips, I mean no disrespect toward what I am sure if wonderful dog but I am trying to find out if there is an individual dog out there doing well in different trial venues and everyone seems to want to be very vague on the subject rather than just throwing down some names other than your Fritz dog. I will look at your website for info. though.

I know even in hunting after hunting quail for a month and letting my dogs range out to 400 yards or so it is heck trying to rein them in to under 100 yards for pheasant hunting so I cannot fathom trying to train a dog to excel at other venues. I am not talking about finishing 9th out of 10 dogs but finishing in the top 3 in different venues. I know that many venues are completely different than other venues that is why I posed the question. Is it possible and if so then are there dogs out there doing this.
I would be interested as well in knowing if any Brit, GSP, Vizsla, etc. has been able to accomplish something similar. Like a NSTRA, NAVDA, AA, etc. I just wonder if any dogs have done it?
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Re: The ridiclious use of the term "close working NSTRA lines."

Post by Ron R » Sun Mar 14, 2010 2:30 pm

tommyboy72 wrote: I am not interested in hearing about how much it costs to compete in just one venue, that sir is an excuse
Tommy, that is not an excuse that is a fact.
tommyboy72 wrote:If you have 20 dogs in 1 venue
Who runs 20 dogs in one venue, not the average guy or gal :? .
tommyboy72 wrote:1 of the other ones is only good enough to get 10th place everytime he competes drop the 10th place dog and compete the winner in both venues. Simple as that.
Dogs that don't win or place will not get too many chances and alot of people get involved in the venue of their choice because that's the one that they enjoy. Why would anybody put the time and money into something that they don't enjoy.
tommyboy72 wrote:I just asked if anyone knew of any Pointers like this.


All biddable Pointers are capable of success in multiple venues :wink: .

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Re: The ridiclious use of the term "close working NSTRA lines."

Post by vzkennels » Sun Mar 14, 2010 2:52 pm

Here is Fritz correct name & Titles,If I left anything out I apologise to Rick,Brenda,& Fritz.

DC/AFC/3X NSTRA Ch Gamble's Odyssey Fritz MH RD VCX
NAVDHA UT Prize 11
RU NAGDC

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Re: The ridiclious use of the term "close working NSTRA lines."

Post by gunner » Sun Mar 14, 2010 4:04 pm

Ron R wrote:
"Could someone please remind me why American Field does not recognize NSTRA Champions. I knew this at one time but for the life of me I can't remember. I know it's not because of the birds getting shot in NSTRA trials but more about a falling out of some sort.
"

The board of directors of the Amateur Field Trial Clubs of America informed American Field's Bernie Mathys of a presentation made to them by top insurance executives of potential liability that the AFTCA, it's directors and the American Field might incur in trials where guns and live ammunition may be used. Mathys sent then NSTRA president Wes Barr a letter with his intention of terminating the relationship between the American Field and NSTRA. A portion of the letter...

"Wes, given the litigious sentiment in society, the NSTRA and its officers are perhaps in a precarious position given the dogs-horses-guns combination, and extending that, The American Field also."

There is a very wide fundamental difference between the Amateur Field Trial Clubs of America and the shoot to kill venues of NSTRA.
From the first paragraph of the AFTCA's bylaws...
Corporate Charter, Page 1 ~ Written February 20, 1948
"To restore and perpetuate wild Upland Game Birds on the North American continent; to promote, carry on, conduct and foster research, education, training and publication in ornithological sciences, to make studies with reference to the enhancement of knowledge concerning Upland Game Birds of the North American continent; to establish, promote, assist, contribute to or otherwise encourage the study of conservation, restoration and management of Upland Game Birds and their habitats; and in connection therewith to grant scholarships, prizes, and rewards; to promote, encourage, acquire or maintain refuges for Upland Game Birds and to foster and increase interest in and knowledge of Upland Game Birds and their conservation by promoting, regulating, controlling, advising and conducting field trials on Upland Game Birds."

There are minimum regulations that clubs that run venues under the Field or AFTCA auspices. They include the understanding that adult dogs must be finished in their training or in another words broke to be steady to wing and shot. This includes all adult dogs competing under AF or AFTCA; horseback all-age, shooting dog, foot handled cover dogs, and restricted breed stakes.

Other differing regulations between NSTRA, the Field and the AFTCA would be differences in Open (money paying)stakes
vs Amateur stakes, and while not all AF stakes are 3 hour endurance marathons, AF Championships are a minimum 1 hour on multiple courses very unlike NSTRA's birdfields. From AF's Minimum Regulations...
" In the case of one-course trials, no more than eight (8) minutes of the thirty (30) shall be spent in the birdfield."

The standards of AF AFTCA type trials are far different from NSTRA. While the dogs may be of the same ancestry, the training, judging requirements, grounds and courses that they run upon can be vastly different. Participants of both organizations may be highly critical of the other.

Different strokes for different folks.

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Re: The ridiclious use of the term "close working NSTRA lines."

Post by fuzznut » Sun Mar 14, 2010 4:25 pm

Well, not an EP or GSP, but I had a GWP that was a BISS/DC/AFC/CD/MH/NAVHDA UT III, would that count? And was RU in our Nat. Ch 2xs
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Re: The ridiclious use of the term "close working NSTRA lines."

Post by tommyboy72 » Sun Mar 14, 2010 5:19 pm

Thanks for all the input. I did not mean to ruffle any feathers or upset anyone. I don't trial simply because the venue I would like to participate in takes place too far away from me for it to be feasible to drive. Mostly horseback trials around where I live and I am not interested. Don't like horses and don't own one.

Ron the only reason I could think to put money into a trial venue you do not enjoy would be to make money off of litters later on down the road.

I am not familiar with some of these titles or some of the venues they belong to but am going to study up. I know about the BDC venue, horseback venue, and NSTRA venue but some of the titles like MH and AC and AFC I know what they stand for but am not familiar with what all goes into them. I will do some studying and find out. With most of the titles are the dogs competing against other dogs or just against themselves and the objectives they are trying to accomplish?

Fuzz sounds like a multiple winner to me.

I was just wondering if there were any Pointers out there competing in horseback trials and then competing in cover dog trials or BDC type formats where they were working in close quarters?

I am sorry about hijacking this post and do appreciate everyone's comments and input. Thank you.

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