The ridiclious use of the term "close working NSTRA lines."

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Re: The ridiclious use of the term "close working NSTRA lines."

Post by vzkennels » Sun Mar 14, 2010 5:33 pm

Tommy that was my point about how much just one of these venues cost let alone multipile venues.The money is a BIG limiting factor as to how many venues a dog is going to compete or test in along with all the time they consume.No ruffled feathers here. :D

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Re: The ridiclious use of the term "close working NSTRA lines."

Post by Dave Quindt » Sun Mar 14, 2010 5:36 pm

gunner wrote:Ron R wrote:
"Could someone please remind me why American Field does not recognize NSTRA Champions. I knew this at one time but for the life of me I can't remember. I know it's not because of the birds getting shot in NSTRA trials but more about a falling out of some sort.
"

The board of directors of the Amateur Field Trial Clubs of America informed American Field's Bernie Mathys of a presentation made to them by top insurance executives of potential liability that the AFTCA, it's directors and the American Field might incur in trials where guns and live ammunition may be used. Mathys sent then NSTRA president Wes Barr a letter with his intention of terminating the relationship between the American Field and NSTRA............

Different strokes for different folks.
Gunner,

I'm no huge defender of NSTRA, but even my B.S. meter went off with that post!

All of that makes sense if the AF went on to ban all retrieving and live ammo at any trial that is sanctions. It didn't do that; the AF continues to sanction over 100 trials a year where live birds are shot.

Let's be honest about this. The partnership between NSTRA and the AF was about NSTRA gaining legitimacy and the AF gaining revenues; William F Brown had to be spinning in his grave the day that partnership was announced. The AF announcement that certain NSTRA championships would be granted AF CH status pissed off folks (rightfully so), and once NSTRA started balking about paying for ads in the Field, there was little reason to keep the arrangement in place. The insurance issue was just one of many reasons that could have been used to end the partnership.

FWIW,
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Re: The ridiclious use of the term "close working NSTRA lines."

Post by Ron R » Sun Mar 14, 2010 5:37 pm

tommyboy72 wrote: I don't trial simply because the venue I would like to participate in takes place too far away from me for it to be feasible to drive.
See Tommy, time and money :D
tommyboy72 wrote:Ron the only reason I could think to put money into a trial venue you do not enjoy would be to make money off of litters later on down the road.
Not very many honest men can make any money off of birddogs :roll: :( :? .

What venue are you interested in, BDC?

You have'nt got any little guys pickin on you at the jail house again do ya :lol:. Just have your wife make you up some chicken fried bacon, that would make me feel better :D BTW, I don't think that you ruffled any feathers.

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Re: The ridiclious use of the term "close working NSTRA lines."

Post by highcotton » Sun Mar 14, 2010 5:42 pm

gunner wrote:Ron R wrote:
"Could someone please remind me why American Field does not recognize NSTRA Champions. I knew this at one time but for the life of me I can't remember. I know it's not because of the birds getting shot in NSTRA trials but more about a falling out of some sort.
"

The board of directors of the Amateur Field Trial Clubs of America informed American Field's Bernie Mathys of a presentation made to them by top insurance executives of potential liability that the AFTCA, it's directors and the American Field might incur in trials where guns and live ammunition may be used. Mathys sent then NSTRA president Wes Barr a letter with his intention of terminating the relationship between the American Field and NSTRA. A portion of the letter...

"Wes, given the litigious sentiment in society, the NSTRA and its officers are perhaps in a precarious position given the dogs-horses-guns combination, and extending that, The American Field also."

There is a very wide fundamental difference between the Amateur Field Trial Clubs of America and the shoot to kill venues of NSTRA.
From the first paragraph of the AFTCA's bylaws...
Corporate Charter, Page 1 ~ Written February 20, 1948
"To restore and perpetuate wild Upland Game Birds on the North American continent; to promote, carry on, conduct and foster research, education, training and publication in ornithological sciences, to make studies with reference to the enhancement of knowledge concerning Upland Game Birds of the North American continent; to establish, promote, assist, contribute to or otherwise encourage the study of conservation, restoration and management of Upland Game Birds and their habitats; and in connection therewith to grant scholarships, prizes, and rewards; to promote, encourage, acquire or maintain refuges for Upland Game Birds and to foster and increase interest in and knowledge of Upland Game Birds and their conservation by promoting, regulating, controlling, advising and conducting field trials on Upland Game Birds."

There are minimum regulations that clubs that run venues under the Field or AFTCA auspices. They include the understanding that adult dogs must be finished in their training or in another words broke to be steady to wing and shot. This includes all adult dogs competing under AF or AFTCA; horseback all-age, shooting dog, foot handled cover dogs, and restricted breed stakes.

Other differing regulations between NSTRA, the Field and the AFTCA would be differences in Open (money paying)stakes
vs Amateur stakes, and while not all AF stakes are 3 hour endurance marathons, AF Championships are a minimum 1 hour on multiple courses very unlike NSTRA's birdfields. From AF's Minimum Regulations...
" In the case of one-course trials, no more than eight (8) minutes of the thirty (30) shall be spent in the birdfield."

The standards of AF AFTCA type trials are far different from NSTRA. While the dogs may be of the same ancestry, the training, judging requirements, grounds and courses that they run upon can be vastly different. Participants of both organizations may be highly critical of the other.

Different strokes for different folks.
Given all those fundamental differences you speak of why did the AF allow NSTRA in to begin with?

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Re: The ridiclious use of the term "close working NSTRA lines."

Post by tommyboy72 » Sun Mar 14, 2010 6:15 pm

Nope no little guys picking on me today. :lol:

I am interested in BDC top gun or pointing singles, no worrying about backing or straight tails or whether a judge thinks your dog is running with style or running to the front. Tournament rules apply and it is one dog matched against another with the best time coming out on top. I like the venue. It is not so much a money issue as far as entry fees and such. It is more an issue of the fact that I would have to drive 8 hours and more to go to these events, stay in a hotel, pay for gas, eat, etc. I guess what you would consider overhead costs. If they were closer you better believe I would enter up.

Ron I wish you and Charlie would have been here today. We had breaded/fried pork chops, mashed potatoes and brown gravy and sweet corn. You guys would have been more than welcome for supper again anytime.

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Re: The ridiclious use of the term "close working NSTRA lines."

Post by birddog1968 » Sun Mar 14, 2010 6:19 pm

Problem i see with events that dont take race, range, style and looks into account is the winners
of these kinds of events will think a dog with lousy race/range and looks (straight tails) will
want to breed dogs that look less than good.

How is that good for the breed?
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Re: The ridiclious use of the term "close working NSTRA lines."

Post by Ruffshooter » Sun Mar 14, 2010 6:51 pm

I would be interested as well in knowing if any Brit, GSP, Vizsla, etc. has been able to accomplish something similar. Like a NSTRA, NAVDA, AA, etc. I just wonder if any dogs have done it?
[/quote]

Many of us can not spend the time or money to go to the bigger running shows though many of us have dogs that we feel would be respectable in any venue. It is a matter of where you are what games you have that you can play.

I have a GSP (Mercy) That I had started with NAVHDA , UT prize 1 at 16 months, MH and VC by 3.5, then some one said try NSTRA, traveled to the VA Region,for two winters on three trials a winter, did not make a champion primaraly because I shot her out of first place three times but she did get a 1st 2nd and two 3rds, i beleive then we had to stop because of cost of travel. Ran her in a Brittany trial AKC/AF only made fourth but she was on point for a long time while we were looking for her. She fit in that as well. Got a lot of complements, Tried to get in coverdog trials but when I said she was a shorthair they were not to keen on her running. I once had a lady who had these gorgeous GSP that she claimed ran endurance trials but she wanted a MH on this particular dog. She tells me how the test would go and that she would make sure that we had opportunity to find birds. Well my dog out ran and out ranged hers and cleaned the field and in her dogs haste it got pulled.

My point is The venue does not diminish the dogs accomplishments. Many more dogs could do more if we could afford the opportunities. Even my frenchies. Have had my Buster beat and clean the field in NSTRA from a 3 time NSTRA champ. You just never know. I suspect from what all say the AA stuff withholding but I think if Mercy had been introduced to that she would have had respect there as well.
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Re: The ridiclious use of the term "close working NSTRA lines."

Post by tommyboy72 » Sun Mar 14, 2010 7:01 pm

If you are not a breeder trying to make money or a kennel owner then much of that does not matter. In the end we have these dogs because they locate birds, point birds, and after we shoot them retrieve the birds and when the case warrants it find dead birds. Is that not the whole idea of having a hunting dog especially a bird dog? In my opinion that is the general reason behind it. I would rather have a dog that can hunt a 40 acre patch at a medium to fast walking pace and find all the birds in that 40 acre field, normally singles, while maybe looking a bit ugly in some peoples eyes doing it than a dog that will run a half mile out in front at a horseback pace usually find the coveys, likely miss a lot of singles and maybe a covey, and look pretty doing it. I want a hunting dog not a pretty marathon runner. I guess that is why I like the BDC venue it seems to represent a more real life hunting scenario and real life hunting dogs than a horseback trial does in my personal opinion. Some of the other venues I do not care for because they judge on aesthetics as well. I can understand the significance of a high, straight tail. It makes it easier for a hunter to see in high cover. I am not crazy about the head crank. I would rather have a dog with a low head looking exactly where the birds are not one with a high head looking in the general direction of the birds. I don't really see what it matters how a dog looks when they are in motion as far as the tail, head, body position, etc. That is objective and up to the judge and has nothing to do with finding and pointing birds. Another reason I like the BDC venue is it takes the judge out of it and the judge acts more like a safety officer and time keeper rather than a point issuer. JMO

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Re: The ridiclious use of the term "close working NSTRA lines."

Post by ACooper » Sun Mar 14, 2010 8:43 pm

Birddogz wrote:
tommyboy72 wrote:Sorry VZ I am not trying to be rude but I am not interested in hearing about how much it costs to compete in just one venue, that sir is an excuse and I do not care to hear excuses. :D If you have 20 dogs in 1 venue and 1 of them is good enough to compete in another venue and win and 1 of the other ones is only good enough to get 10th place everytime he competes drop the 10th place dog and compete the winner in both venues. Simple as that.

I never said I was ONLY interested in Pointers capable of this. I just asked if anyone knew of any Pointers like this. I would be interested in any dog like this. Seems like it should stop a lot of arguing on this forum about my dog can do this or this dog can do this and that when it comes to trials and different venues. I personally think that since dogs only have the brain capacity of a very young child according to scientists that probably one venue is all they are capable of mastering. Show dogs do not count either VZ. Seriously how hard is it for the dog to be led around and look good. Most of the work is on the groomer and nutrition and exercise. I was actually look for some names of some dogs so I could look them up myself. Thanks for the name of the Fritz dog. I am sure Brenda is too modest to brag but I am interested in knowing more though. Is Fritz a producer of dual venue champions or a producer of many winners in different venues? What venues have they attempted with him? Just out of curiousity? Are they totally unrelated venues like a blind duck retrieve, AA 1 hour run, a 15 min. 5 bird find in the BDC, a NSTRA event, a blood tracking event? Everyone argues that this dog can excel here and this dog can excel here but I want to know about dual trial and venue champions not show ring trial dogs. Please do not take any offense Snips, I mean no disrespect toward what I am sure if wonderful dog but I am trying to find out if there is an individual dog out there doing well in different trial venues and everyone seems to want to be very vague on the subject rather than just throwing down some names other than your Fritz dog. I will look at your website for info. though.

I know even in hunting after hunting quail for a month and letting my dogs range out to 400 yards or so it is heck trying to rein them in to under 100 yards for pheasant hunting so I cannot fathom trying to train a dog to excel at other venues. I am not talking about finishing 9th out of 10 dogs but finishing in the top 3 in different venues. I know that many venues are completely different than other venues that is why I posed the question. Is it possible and if so then are there dogs out there doing this.
I would be interested as well in knowing if any Brit, GSP, Vizsla, etc. has been able to accomplish something similar. Like a NSTRA, NAVDA, AA, etc. I just wonder if any dogs have done it?
I know of a Brit that due to an unfortunate accident was killed last year, he was an AA FC, Navhda UT PRZ 1 and a MH, he was being prepped for the Navhda invitational.
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Re: The ridiclious use of the term "close working NSTRA lines."

Post by snips » Sun Mar 14, 2010 9:01 pm

TommyBoy, no offence taken...But you might try our Brags pg on our website. You will find dogs that have excelled in about every venue out there. We continue to campaign dogs in lots of venues, and I like to Brag, just ck Brag pg :D Fritz is just now showing what his offspring are capable of, as he is just 8 yrs old. Many Studs don't really show what they have produced until they are old or gone. We just learned Fritz got Hunt Test Sire of the Yr in 2009 with 29 pts, he has sired multiple NSTRA Ch's, dogs excelling in AKC Trials, and dogs doing NAVHDA. Hopefullt next yr he can achieve FT Sire and or DC Sire of the YR. The topic of the thread is about NSTRA dogs, which I fully agree on what NSTRA dogs are capable of :D
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Re: The ridiclious use of the term "close working NSTRA lines."

Post by TAK » Sun Mar 14, 2010 9:24 pm

birddog1968 wrote:Problem i see with events that dont take race, range, style and looks into account is the winners
of these kinds of events will think a dog with lousy race/range and looks (straight tails) will
want to breed dogs that look less than good.

How is that good for the breed?

Well its BIRDDOG 101... Just because the dog don't run a line does not mean it can't. If ya read the entire thread you will see... MANY posts showing of ALL kinds of POINTER lines producing in about all venues.
And I honestly see the dogs for what they are, not the venue.
Not sure where you get that NSTRA makes a dogs looks any different? It's pointing a bird high head and tail? Does it look different from a horse?

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Re: The ridiclious use of the term "close working NSTRA lines."

Post by birddog1968 » Sun Mar 14, 2010 11:12 pm

TAK wrote:
birddog1968 wrote:Problem i see with events that dont take race, range, style and looks into account is the winners
of these kinds of events will think a dog with lousy race/range and looks (straight tails) will
want to breed dogs that look less than good.

How is that good for the breed?

Well its BIRDDOG 101... Just because the dog don't run a line does not mean it can't. If ya read the entire thread you will see... MANY posts showing of ALL kinds of POINTER lines producing in about all venues.
And I honestly see the dogs for what they are, not the venue.
Not sure where you get that NSTRA makes a dogs looks any different? It's pointing a bird high head and tail? Does it look different from a horse?
I have seen quite a few terrible looking dogs that run in Nstra....bad sickle tails, laydown points.....

I am not super experienced with nstra I admit...just something Ive noticed. Just take a look at nstra's
classified page for example.
The second kick from a mule is of very little educational value - from Wing and Shot.

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Re: The ridiclious use of the term "close working NSTRA lines."

Post by snips » Mon Mar 15, 2010 6:08 am

birddog1968 wrote:
TAK wrote:
birddog1968 wrote:Problem i see with events that dont take race, range, style and looks into account is the winners
of these kinds of events will think a dog with lousy race/range and looks (straight tails) will
want to breed dogs that look less than good.

How is that good for the breed?

Well its BIRDDOG 101... Just because the dog don't run a line does not mean it can't. If ya read the entire thread you will see... MANY posts showing of ALL kinds of POINTER lines producing in about all venues.
And I honestly see the dogs for what they are, not the venue.
Not sure where you get that NSTRA makes a dogs looks any different? It's pointing a bird high head and tail? Does it look different from a horse?
I have seen quite a few terrible looking dogs that run in Nstra....bad sickle tails, laydown points.....

I am not super experienced with nstra I admit...just something Ive noticed. Just take a look at nstra's
classified page for example.
Honestly, I have seen a few in AKC that I have taken a double take on getting in the ribbons..Fine if they do not give points, but also getting points because they just get around clean.
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Re: The ridiclious use of the term "close working NSTRA lines."

Post by scott townsend » Mon Mar 15, 2010 7:03 am

Dave Quindt wrote:
gunner wrote:Ron R wrote:
"Could someone please remind me why American Field does not recognize NSTRA Champions. I knew this at one time but for the life of me I can't remember. I know it's not because of the birds getting shot in NSTRA trials but more about a falling out of some sort.
"

The board of directors of the Amateur Field Trial Clubs of America informed American Field's Bernie Mathys of a presentation made to them by top insurance executives of potential liability that the AFTCA, it's directors and the American Field might incur in trials where guns and live ammunition may be used. Mathys sent then NSTRA president Wes Barr a letter with his intention of terminating the relationship between the American Field and NSTRA............

Different strokes for different folks.
Gunner,

I'm no huge defender of NSTRA, but even my B.S. meter went off with that post!

All of that makes sense if the AF went on to ban all retrieving and live ammo at any trial that is sanctions. It didn't do that; the AF continues to sanction over 100 trials a year where live birds are shot.

Let's be honest about this. The partnership between NSTRA and the AF was about NSTRA gaining legitimacy and the AF gaining revenues; William F Brown had to be spinning in his grave the day that partnership was announced. The AF announcement that certain NSTRA championships would be granted AF CH status pissed off folks (rightfully so), and once NSTRA started balking about paying for ads in the Field, there was little reason to keep the arrangement in place. The insurance issue was just one of many reasons that could have been used to end the partnership.

FWIW,
Dave
Dave you are spot on.

NSTRA approached AF first with the issue/problem of them not getting the ads posted soon enough. It was not resolved on the AF end so our next and only other alternative was to stop advertising in the AF mag because it was costing the org a ton of money and yet the trials wre already filled up by the time the posting hit the mag.It does not take a genius to figure out that, that is bad business.So the ads were stopped. It was not long after that when the AF came back with the liability BS.
I was there and involved in the dicision making involved with the issue. It was simple on our end, it was not working , so why pay for it.
I co-owned/campaigned a dog that had an AF CH title and was a Multi time NSTRA national champion Crow's Little Joe son of the same era as Nolen's Last Bullet.

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Re: The ridiclious use of the term "close working NSTRA lines."

Post by Greg Jennings » Mon Mar 15, 2010 7:17 am

birddog1968 wrote:I have seen quite a few terrible looking dogs that run in Nstra....bad sickle tails, laydown points.....
I am not super experienced with nstra I admit...just something Ive noticed. Just take a look at nstra's
classified page for example.
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People are competitive. If you put a bunch of people together, someone is going to spend the time, sweat and treasure to win consistently. Those are the dogs you want to look at.

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Re: The ridiclious use of the term "close working NSTRA lines."

Post by myerstenn » Mon Mar 15, 2010 7:19 am

I fail to understand why it was the fields problem that the nstra trials filled up early, they filled up because everyone rushed to enter when the nstra publication came out with trial dates!! I understood that it had a lot more to do with the title that they wanted based on points earned in weekend trials??? Frakly if i owned the field i would of taken there money and run. Dave , you know better, how does the field saction weekend akc/ngspa trials that do retreives and kill birds. Your logic doesnt calibrate

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Re: The ridiclious use of the term "close working NSTRA lines."

Post by Yawallac » Mon Mar 15, 2010 7:20 am

...it was not working , so why pay for it.
Scott, without it, you lost AF recognition. That was probably a tough decision.

BTW, as far as I know the NBHA still shoots birds (a bird) on the course in Championships. At least they did two years ago in the last NBHA Championship that I ran in. ???

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Re: The ridiclious use of the term "close working NSTRA lines."

Post by Duane M » Mon Mar 15, 2010 7:42 am

All of that makes sense if the AF went on to ban all retrieving and live ammo at any trial that is sanctions. It didn't do that; the AF continues to sanction over 100 trials a year where live birds are shot.

???????? And to which trials do you refer Dave? The last 3 years in NBHA, that last AF sanctioned ret stakes, there have been no birds shot and no retreive required and even before that wqe had went to only requiring one bird shot and retreived and that was SD only. For a few years after the NSTRA debacle we did but then the hammer came down that if we did and they found out no points would be awarded nor would Ch be recognized. If they have, as Ross says, in his area they can just be glad no one spoke out about it.

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Re: The ridiclious use of the term "close working NSTRA lines."

Post by scott townsend » Mon Mar 15, 2010 8:16 am

Yawallac wrote:
...it was not working , so why pay for it.
Scott, without it, you lost AF recognition. That was probably a tough decision.

BTW, as far as I know the NBHA still shoots birds (a bird) on the course in Championships. At least they did two years ago in the last NBHA Championship that I ran in. ???
It was a tough decision.

But as an organization you have do business and at least break even. It was a decision that was struggled with and in the end the BOD supported to quit advertising. Now if they had known what the end results would be would they have voted to continue advertising, who knows.
Im not here to argue the point one way or the other. The question was asked for the reasoning behind the split and I shared what I knew of the facts.
At this point it is water over the bridge.

by myerstenn » Mon Mar 15, 2010 8:19 am

I fail to understand why it was the fields problem that the nstra trials filled up early, they filled up because everyone rushed to enter when the nstra publication came out with trial dates!! I understood that it had a lot more to do with the title that they wanted based on points earned in weekend trials???

Again from a business stand point does it matter how the trials filled???? Bottom line they were already filled by the time the AF mag went to print. When you looked at the numbers the math was pretty simple.


by myerstenn » Mon Mar 15, 2010 8:19 am

Frakly if i owned the field i would of taken there money and run. Dave , you know better, how does the field saction weekend akc/ngspa trials that do retreives and kill birds. Your logic doesnt calibrate

Well that speaks volumes about the excuse of the liability being the reason for the split doesn't it. Horses and guns continued after the split.
I will say it once again. It all boiled down to money.
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Re: The ridiclious use of the term "close working NSTRA lines."

Post by Yawallac » Mon Mar 15, 2010 8:16 am

Duane, you're right, the last NBHA Championship that I ran in was the ft season before the retrieve requirement was lifted. Even then, it was only one bird shot on the course for the retrieve.

More recently, the United Bird Hunters tried to get AF recognition but couldn't because Bernie said no killing birds for points....
Im not here to argue the point one way or the other.
Scott, me neither, I was just thinking if I had to make that decision it would have been a tough one.
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Re: The ridiclious use of the term "close working NSTRA lines."

Post by ACooper » Mon Mar 15, 2010 8:19 am

[quote=] More recently, the United Bird Hunters tried to get AF recognition but couldn't because Bernie said no killing birds for points....[/quote]


Killing birds for bird dogs? What a ludicrous idea...

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Re: The ridiclious use of the term "close working NSTRA lines."

Post by Yawallac » Mon Mar 15, 2010 8:25 am

Killing birds for bird dogs? What a ludicrous idea...
My understanding is that the problem was "killing birds for points" not necessarily "killing birds for bird dogs".

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Re: The ridiclious use of the term "close working NSTRA lines."

Post by Richard *UT* » Mon Mar 15, 2010 8:32 am

There is a very wide fundamental difference between the Amateur Field Trial Clubs of America and the shoot to kill venues of NSTRA.
I think you right have got that wrong the STR in NSTRA stands for Shoot To Retrieve. As far as killling goes, That realy has no part in Bird dogs used for HUNTING! :roll: Hunting involves killing, but only when succesful. :wink:
Other differing regulations between NSTRA, the Field and the AFTCA would be differences in Open (money paying)stakes vs Amateur stakes, and while not all AF stakes are 3 hour endurance marathons, AF Championships are a minimum 1 hour on multiple courses very unlike NSTRA's birdfields.
Again wrong! NSTRA has championships that last 1 hour.
I fail to understand why it was the fields problem that the nstra trials filled up early,
If NSTRA wants an ad to come out by a date, and the AF wants their money but can't deliver by the date then it is a problem. Right?
Frakly if i owned the field i would of taken there money and run.
Did I read that right? I will give you a chance to let me know what you ment by that.


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Re: The ridiclious use of the term "close working NSTRA lines."

Post by ACooper » Mon Mar 15, 2010 10:11 am

Yawallac wrote:
Killing birds for bird dogs? What a ludicrous idea...
My understanding is that the problem was "killing birds for points" not necessarily "killing birds for bird dogs".

Yeah I get it and still think it is ridiculous.

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Re: The ridiclious use of the term "close working NSTRA lines."

Post by Ron R » Mon Mar 15, 2010 10:43 am

scott townsend wrote:NSTRA approached AF first with the issue/problem of them not getting the ads posted soon enough. It was not resolved on the AF end so our next and only other alternative was to stop advertising in the AF mag because it was costing the org a ton of money and yet the trials wre already filled up by the time the posting hit the mag.It does not take a genius to figure out that, that is bad business.So the ads were stopped. It was not long after that when the AF came back with the liability BS.
I was there and involved in the dicision making involved with the issue. It was simple on our end, it was not working , so why pay for it.
I co-owned/campaigned a dog that had an AF CH title and was a Multi time NSTRA national champion Crow's Little Joe son of the same era as Nolen's Last Bullet.
Scott, Thank you for your informative and intelligent response but I sure wish the AF would reconize NSTRA Championships. It seemes that it is not so much about the dogs or format but about individuals and money.
Greg Jennings wrote:The cream rises to the top and the dregs fall to the bottom in every format. If you want to look for dregs, they're there. If, however, you want to see the cream, it's there as well.

People are competitive. If you put a bunch of people together, someone is going to spend the time, sweat and treasure to win consistently. Those are the dogs you want to look at.


Very nicely said.

Ron
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Re: The ridiclious use of the term "close working NSTRA lines."

Post by scott townsend » Mon Mar 15, 2010 10:55 am

Ron R wrote: Scott, Thank you for your informative and intelligent response but I sure wish the AF would reconize NSTRA Championships. It seemes that it is not so much about the dogs or format but about individuals and money.


Ron
Ron, you are absolutely right about the money and the individuals.

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Re: The ridiclious use of the term "close working NSTRA lines."

Post by TAK » Mon Mar 15, 2010 11:21 am

birddog1968 wrote: I have seen quite a few terrible looking dogs that run in Nstra....bad sickle tails, laydown points.....
I am not super experienced with nstra I admit...just something Ive noticed. Just take a look at nstra's
classified page for example.

I think if you was to go and look around you will find that MANY dogs have less than desired tails, or lay down on point, flag, creep... just kinda look nasty, but it's not NSTRA that makes them do that.
Ya have to look at the individual dog on that day. I know all trial formats do not execpt a dog that lays down while on point, and a dog harly will place if it is flagging on the birds, ANY VENUE!
As far as sickle, I can speak for AFC or AKC, because I don't know, but I have seen the same pictures posted on here of dogs that have won, yet they are sickle'd as heck.

Picture taken in a NSTRA trial... he looked like this 5 times in 30 minutes that day....
His lines are horseback top and NSTRA bottom..... The same dogs I run in NSTRA run in AKC... yet have never had a peron of a judge say they don't run big enough... Now breaking on the shot is another ball game all together!
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Re: The ridiclious use of the term "close working NSTRA lines."

Post by Neil » Mon Mar 15, 2010 11:45 am

Most horseback All-Age/Shooting Dog trials need at least 1,200 acres for an hour brace, much more on the prairies.

The biggest biggest field I have seen or read about is 80 acres of mowed fields with few objectives.

I am very impressed with the top NSTRA dogs, but we ought to keep to the truth.

Neil

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Re: The ridiclious use of the term "close working NSTRA lines."

Post by TAK » Mon Mar 15, 2010 12:00 pm

Neil wrote:Most horseback All-Age/Shooting Dog trials need at least 1,200 acres for an hour brace, much more on the prairies.

The biggest biggest field I have seen or read about is 80 acres of mowed fields with few objectives.

I am very impressed with the top NSTRA dogs, but we ought to keep to the truth.

Neil
In the West we don't use mowed fields, it is not uncommon to find a covey of Sage Boomers in one of our trial locations, but your right one of the biggest would be 80 acres, I am not arguing that the game is different.... It kinda comes full circle to the original posters comments on what you develope the dog for. Kinda like if your going to have this dog live in the house or the kennel? Chances are you will train it not to chit in your living room... Same as if I am going to run trials on the prairies I might push that dog out for some distance, same as if I am going to run NSTRA... I might want to be able to turn it back into the field......

Ohh and in an 80 acre field, depending on the number of birds the dogs find I can make it around 2 times and on bad days 3 times....

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Re: The ridiclious use of the term "close working NSTRA lines."

Post by DGFavor » Mon Mar 15, 2010 12:43 pm

Here's a couple real life AA prairie trial points - plenty of country (i.e. a dog's gotta hunt), real birds planted by their own whims and wants (i.e. a dog's gotta hunt), super hot (i.e. a dog's really gotta want to hunt), real life style on native game (i.e. you go to pose 'em up for a nice stylish pic, the birds fly)...a for real, very tough evaluation of a bird dog! :wink:

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Image

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Throw a shotgun in your scabbard or strap on your Filson Uplanders and vest, work up a little sweat on your brow and you're hunting for real...unless your typical hunt is in 20-40 acre lots with easter egg birds. ( :lol: :lol: sorry TAK, I know, I know, I'm a wild bird snob :lol: :oops: ) This is one competitive venue that's as close to real hunting as you can get - it's the venue folks look to to breed dogs to go play with in their venue... :wink: :

Image

Image

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Re: The ridiclious use of the term "close working NSTRA lines."

Post by snips » Mon Mar 15, 2010 1:14 pm

Uhmmm, I am still looking for the edges....... :roll:
brenda

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Re: The ridiclious use of the term "close working NSTRA lines."

Post by DGFavor » Mon Mar 15, 2010 1:40 pm

Uhmmm, I am still looking for the edges.......
:lol: :lol: Edges would be nice for sure - 4 wheeler tracks and orange ribbons would be even better!! Dang birds haven't read the manual!! :lol: :lol:

Hungarian find on an edge for ya' by a multi 1 hour AA winning dog, 1 hour SD winning dog, AKC FC too...just huntin' fo' fun...on foot :wink: :
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Re: The ridiclious use of the term "close working NSTRA lines."

Post by D2shorthairs » Mon Mar 15, 2010 1:58 pm

Doug, I'll ask the stupid question cause I'd like to know. I'm in South Central Texas and haven't hunted the rolling grassy hills like in you first few pics. The dogs seem to be pointing high, low and on the sides of hills, so are the good AA dogs covering a lot of ground and using the wind intelligently and finding birds where they find them or are there likely locations for birds in that type of country?

David

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Re: The ridiclious use of the term "close working NSTRA lines."

Post by TAK » Mon Mar 15, 2010 2:21 pm

Ohh Doc... We no think you be a snob.... We all don't just play games....
A Sage Grouse count....
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If ya hav'nt seen one flush for a while... Here ya go!

Image

Or should we look at some birds that like to "Dig in the Heels" a bit... Mearns
Image

And ya have some babies chasin some of the long tailed type! Long tail won this battle! That time!
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Then ya have to have some Chukar for good measure.... The further west ya go the better I hear it is.... They tend to stay in the 40 acre field better that way....
I photshopped the the hills in the background... also took out the field markers...
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Image

And last of all....

One bad kitty cat!
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Re: The ridiclious use of the term "close working NSTRA lines."

Post by vzkennels » Mon Mar 15, 2010 3:04 pm

Hey Tak you been feeding that Kitty left over pastries?? :P :lol:

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Re: The ridiclious use of the term "close working NSTRA lines."

Post by TAK » Mon Mar 15, 2010 3:09 pm

vzkennels wrote:Hey Tak you been feeding that Kitty left over pastries?? :P :lol:
LOL!!! I was waiting for a my buddy to go hunting when this man and women got out with this thing...

Needless to say I left my dogs in the kennel!

vzkennels

Re: The ridiclious use of the term "close working NSTRA lines."

Post by vzkennels » Mon Mar 15, 2010 3:40 pm

That's funny Tom & I just couldn't picture you leading that thing around !! I doubt them German dogs would take kindly to it. :lol: Worse then them porkies you run into.
Just to keep this on topic would that count as a find in a NSTRA trial as the dog hits the far end of the field ? :P :lol:

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Re: The ridiclious use of the term "close working NSTRA lines."

Post by DGFavor » Mon Mar 15, 2010 6:17 pm

The dogs seem to be pointing high, low and on the sides of hills, so are the good AA dogs covering a lot of ground and using the wind intelligently and finding birds where they find them or are there likely locations for birds in that type of country?
There are some definite patterns the birds will follow like anywhere depending on time of day and weather...but for the most part, they is where they is and there can be alot of barren country and footsteps between 'em!! :lol:

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Re: The ridiclious use of the term "close working NSTRA lines."

Post by tommyboy72 » Mon Mar 15, 2010 7:37 pm

That's especially true hunting scalies. Some days there is a huge covey there and the next day they are completely out of the country.

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Re: The ridiclious use of the term "close working NSTRA lines."

Post by hustonmc » Mon Mar 15, 2010 8:34 pm

DGFavor wrote:plenty of country (i.e. a dog's gotta hunt), real birds planted by their own whims and wants (i.e. a dog's gotta hunt), super hot (i.e. a dog's really gotta want to hunt), real life style on native game (i.e. you go to pose 'em up for a nice stylish pic, the birds fly)...a for real, very tough evaluation of a bird dog! :wink:
Throw a shotgun in your scabbard or strap on your Filson Uplanders and vest, work up a little sweat on your brow and you're hunting for real...unless your typical hunt is in 20-40 acre lots with easter egg birds. ( :lol: :lol: sorry TAK, I know, I know, I'm a wild bird snob :lol: :oops: ) This is one competitive venue that's as close to real hunting as you can get - it's the venue folks look to to breed dogs to go play with in their venue... :wink: :

Absolutely Doug!!!!!!!!! But this gets back to my original point. Just because a dog shows the ability to handle in a 40acre field by no stretch of the imagination means he can't do the above the next weekend while chasing Huns and Chukar.

I never stated that NSTRA is the best evaluation of a great hunting dog. Just the use of the term, "close working NSTRA line is totally irrelevant. NSTRA dogs aren't run in NSTRA because they can ONLY run a 40acre field, their owner just decided to run that venue for what ever million reasons. The line of the dog and I'll stick with Pointers as my example, is the same as dogs running the above venue. They aren't developed to stretch out like an AA dog, they are HANDLED to stay in close when under judgment. But watch these GOOD dogs when your out working up a sweat on your brow and putting blisters on your feet, and someone tell me what line that dog is out of.

If I had a gorgeous House's Full Lineup/Elhew Hannbelle dog, that was a 10xNSTRA Champion and a wild bird finding, skyline running machine. Is anyone telling me they wouldn't breed to him because he ran NSTRA?

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Re: The ridiclious use of the term "close working NSTRA lines."

Post by Neil » Tue Mar 16, 2010 2:49 am

hustonmc wrote: I never stated that NSTRA is the best evaluation of a great hunting dog.
Seems like most of the NSTRA folks I have met and the their web site says just that.

I don't know about NSTRA out West, but I have seen Amo, and I have played gulf courses that weren't as well mowed.

But to your point, yes, I would breed to the dog in your example, there are some very nice dogs in NSTRA that I honestly believe could win anywhere.

And if it were not for the lack of objectives, the All-Age guys could keep their dogs in the 40 acre field, they do it all the time on relocations. I have never seen a true wild bird dog that will hunt barren ground for long.

Neil

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Re: The ridiclious use of the term "close working NSTRA lines."

Post by Neil » Tue Mar 16, 2010 3:00 am

From the NSTRA Web Site:
" -Field Trials, under hunting conditions, were the answer."

"NSTRA sanctioned Field Trials are open to all pointing breed dogs and are conducted under conditions closely resembling actual wild bird hunting."
Wild bird hunting? In a mowed 40 acre field? With an out of bounds?

Neil

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Re: The ridiclious use of the term "close working NSTRA lines."

Post by scott townsend » Tue Mar 16, 2010 6:39 am

Neil wrote:
hustonmc wrote: I never stated that NSTRA is the best evaluation of a great hunting dog.
Seems like most of the NSTRA folks I have met and the their web site says just that.

I don't know about NSTRA out West, but I have seen Amo, and I have played gulf courses that weren't as well mowed.

But to your point, yes, I would breed to the dog in your example, there are some very nice dogs in NSTRA that I honestly believe could win anywhere.

And if it were not for the lack of objectives, the All-Age guys could keep their dogs in the 40 acre field, they do it all the time on relocations. I have never seen a true wild bird dog that will hunt barren ground for long.

Neil
Neil, I don't know when you were at Amo, and really don't care. But for anybody that wants to see pics of those grounds go to http://www.amocbdc.com.
Those grounds are far from Neils golf course that he attempts to make people believe.
Neil, in case it hasn't accured to you cover/habitate regrows every year.Yes it may be thin at certain times during a season, but those people put a ton of work into maintaining those grounds to do nothing but compete/run dogs on. Nobody wants to run on your so called golf course, so why would they mow it as per your description????
40 acres is NOT much to hunt, when you only run the outside edges.But when you have to cover the whole thing it takes more then just a couple of minutes. Neil tell me , what is the difference between an hour of running on 40 to 80 acres or an hour of running on 1200 acres.

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Re: The ridiclious use of the term "close working NSTRA lines."

Post by Neil » Tue Mar 16, 2010 7:22 am

Scott,

I have tried to be most civil and understanding, recognizing the many great NSTRA dogs, I ask you do the same.

And yes, I have played golf courses that were rougher than Amo, but then I have never been to Augusta.

And Scott, if you don't think there is a difference to running an hour at Amo and an hour at Ames then you have never been to either, and must not have hunted wild birds much. It takes a good dog to win at Amo, no doubt. At Amo they run mowed strips on dry, level ground. At Ames they must fight mud, snow, ice, briars, brambles, stubble, up and over hills, ravens, creeks, hedge rows, plowed fields, etc.

So there is a huge difference in 80 acres and 1,200 and the toll it takes on a dog.

Neil

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Re: The ridiclious use of the term "close working NSTRA lines."

Post by scott townsend » Tue Mar 16, 2010 7:45 am

Neil wrote:Scott,

I have tried to be most civil and understanding, recognizing the many great NSTRA dogs, I ask you do the same.

And yes, I have played golf courses that were rougher than Amo, but then I have never been to Augusta.

And Scott, if you don't think there is a difference to running an hour at Amo and an hour at Ames then you have never been to either, and must not have hunted wild birds much. It takes a good dog to win at Amo, no doubt. At Amo they run mowed strips on dry, level ground. At Ames they must fight mud, snow, ice, briars, brambles, stubble, up and over hills, ravens, creeks, hedge rows, plowed fields, etc.

So there is a huge difference in 80 acres and 1,200 and the toll it takes on a dog.

Neil
I have no problem being civil Neil, it just gets a little old to continually see you try to belittle the dogs and the format, based on misinformation and half truths.
If you have only been to Amo, that does not give you much to form an opinion on, as far as what type of terrains these dogs run. These dog will frequently run/trial in snow and switch grass one weekend and in cactus, palmettos and sage the next. I have run in the ice and snow of the north country and loaded up and trialed in 80 and 90 degree temps down south or out west, often.
You can twist it anyway you want Neil but bottom line an hour of running in the cover of a typical NSTRA is ZERO difference then an hour of running in the other formats in terms of conditioning and excertion.

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Re: The ridiclious use of the term "close working NSTRA lines."

Post by gunner » Tue Mar 16, 2010 7:53 am

NSTRA Championship Amo, IN
(looking west at A and B fields from obsevation stands)

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Last edited by gunner on Tue Mar 16, 2010 8:12 am, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: The ridiclious use of the term "close working NSTRA lines."

Post by slistoe » Tue Mar 16, 2010 7:54 am

scott townsend wrote: Neil tell me , what is the difference between an hour of running on 40 to 80 acres or an hour of running on 1200 acres.
You are absolutely not serious are you?

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Re: The ridiclious use of the term "close working NSTRA lines."

Post by gunner » Tue Mar 16, 2010 8:07 am

National Bird Dog Championship, Ames Plantation, Grand Junction, TN
(a view of part of one of the two 3 hour courses}


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Re: The ridiclious use of the term "close working NSTRA lines."

Post by Razor » Tue Mar 16, 2010 8:09 am

gunner wrote:NSTRA Championship Amo, IN

Image

Image

Yep, many golf courses have a much more cover.

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Re: The ridiclious use of the term "close working NSTRA lines."

Post by DGFavor » Tue Mar 16, 2010 8:33 am

bottom line an hour of running in the cover of a typical NSTRA is ZERO difference then an hour of running in the other formats in terms of conditioning and excertion.
I can't speak for across the country but there is just no way that is true out here in the west. I've seen a few of the places folks do NSTRA and they're essentially flat tracks. I can't think of a single hour SD or AA course out in this country that doesn't have significant elevation gains and terrain changes, most venues are just downright nasty - they'll suck the life right out of dogs, horses and most of all out of shape foot handlers. :lol: Add in heat and no water on courses and you've got a miserable test for a dog. I don't wanna make universal statements but the NSTRA folks I know aren't gonna be going up into the chukar hills to compete with their dogs - they may go up in 'em on the weekends hunting at their leisure but they aren't setting up NSTRA courses in that country like we do Chukar championships on horseback. I don't care if both dogs cover 12 miles in an hour, the conditioning required to do it in chukar country far outweighs that required to run around a mowed golf course... :lol: :lol:

On the way to the breakaway at Sunnyside,WA - Pacific Coast Championships:
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Below "Chukar Rocks" Milepost 9, Idaho - Nat'l Am. Chukar Championships:
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Robertson Ranch, Idaho - Northwest Chukar Championships, Idaho St. SD Championships:
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Now I'm not saying the dogs that compete in NSTRA can't do it, I am saying the exertion/endurance evaluation for each venue are in no way equal in this neck of the woods. Fact is they are just different games and evaluate different aspects of birddogdom. :wink:

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