The ridiclious use of the term "close working NSTRA lines."

User avatar
Yawallac
GDF Junkie
Posts: 1779
Joined: Fri Dec 16, 2005 6:53 am
Location: South Carolina

Re: The ridiclious use of the term "close working NSTRA lines."

Post by Yawallac » Tue Mar 16, 2010 8:41 am

That looks just like our piney woods ...only different. :D

Image

cjuve
Rank: Champion
Posts: 338
Joined: Wed Jun 18, 2008 8:17 pm
Location: Chukar hunting

Re: The ridiclious use of the term "close working NSTRA lines."

Post by cjuve » Tue Mar 16, 2010 9:09 am

I You can twist it anyway you want Neil but bottom line an hour of running in the cover of a typical NSTRA is ZERO difference then an hour of running in the other formats in terms of conditioning and excertion.
There is no twisting about it, they are different venues made to evaluate different aspects of a bird dog and to say that they are the same in terms of conditioning and exertion is misleading at best. In the end they are both just games and it's like trying to figure out which is best...baseball or football. IMO each has it's strong points.

Shadow
Rank: 5X Champion
Posts: 1173
Joined: Tue May 12, 2009 9:04 am

Re: The ridiclious use of the term "close working NSTRA lines."

Post by Shadow » Tue Mar 16, 2010 9:49 am

cjuve wrote:
I You can twist it anyway you want Neil but bottom line an hour of running in the cover of a typical NSTRA is ZERO difference then an hour of running in the other formats in terms of conditioning and excertion.
There is no twisting about it, they are different venues made to evaluate different aspects of a bird dog and to say that they are the same in terms of conditioning and exertion is misleading at best. In the end they are both just games and it's like trying to figure out which is best...baseball or football. IMO each has it's strong points.
and if you took a Top Dog from all catagories and let them all loose in a big field- what would you see

scott townsend
Rank: Senior Hunter
Posts: 123
Joined: Tue Sep 26, 2006 9:12 am
Location: Michigan

Re: The ridiclious use of the term "close working NSTRA lines."

Post by scott townsend » Tue Mar 16, 2010 10:23 am

cjuve wrote:
I You can twist it anyway you want Neil but bottom line an hour of running in the cover of a typical NSTRA is ZERO difference then an hour of running in the other formats in terms of conditioning and exertion.
There is no twisting about it, they are different venues made to evaluate different aspects of a bird dog and to say that they are the same in terms of conditioning and exertion is misleading at best. In the end they are both just games and it's like trying to figure out which is best...baseball or football. IMO each has it's strong points.
I have never been one to compare one format to the other and I am not now.The only point I am making is to trial in one format versus the other, for an hour, takes just as much exertion and conditioning as the other.PERIOD

scott townsend
Rank: Senior Hunter
Posts: 123
Joined: Tue Sep 26, 2006 9:12 am
Location: Michigan

Re: The ridiclious use of the term "close working NSTRA lines."

Post by scott townsend » Tue Mar 16, 2010 10:26 am

Yawallac wrote:That looks just like our piney woods ...only different. :D

Image
Ross, that is exactly what the trial grounds look like in the Nev/Northern Ca. region. Pretty much the same in Neb.too. Don't have a pic or I would post it.

scott townsend
Rank: Senior Hunter
Posts: 123
Joined: Tue Sep 26, 2006 9:12 am
Location: Michigan

Re: The ridiclious use of the term "close working NSTRA lines."

Post by scott townsend » Tue Mar 16, 2010 10:30 am

gunner wrote:National Bird Dog Championship, Ames Plantation, Grand Junction, TN
(a view of part of one of the two 3 hour courses}


Image
The cover the horses are standing in I believe, is called broom sage. The NSTRA grounds in Carlton Ga. look just like those grounds.

User avatar
Greg Jennings
GDF Junkie
Posts: 5739
Joined: Tue Apr 20, 2004 11:59 am
Location: Springboro, OH

Re: The ridiclious use of the term "close working NSTRA lines."

Post by Greg Jennings » Tue Mar 16, 2010 10:34 am

I don't think anyone is saying it's the format. They're saying it's the cover/terrain.

I think Neil is saying that the AF hour-long courses that he's been on are usually tougher cover and terrain than the NSTRA fields he has seen. Niel, please correct me if I'm wrong.

I think another angle is the number of events that are 30 minutes versus an hour. People will have to chime in on that.

The toughest course I've ever been on was a 30 minute AKC trial. Of course, it was mud up to the horses' knees and one creek crossing where my feet were in the water. It was 30 degrees, snowing with a 20mph wind. I am joking here, but it sure was miserable to plant birds in that event. I had a hard time just finding places that weren't standing water.

Greg J.

cjuve
Rank: Champion
Posts: 338
Joined: Wed Jun 18, 2008 8:17 pm
Location: Chukar hunting

Re: The ridiclious use of the term "close working NSTRA lines."

Post by cjuve » Tue Mar 16, 2010 10:44 am

and if you took a Top Dog from all catagories and let them all loose in a big field- what would you see
That is to vague of a question... A big field?? Are there birds? Are they planters or wild? If planters are they where they should be or are they just thrown out randomly off a quad? What spicies of bird? Are they in covies? Are you on foot? Are you on a horse? Is there objectives?

To me it is more about how and where they run not always about how big. I like big running dogs but that does you no good if they don't run in the "Right Places". IMO in terms of Western Hunting the HB trials do more to emphasize the likely areas that birds are found as opposed to a bird field because lets face it there are only so many likely areas in 80 acres out West.So to answer your question if there are no "Right Places" I would expect the experienced HB back dog to be hitting the horizon in search for the "Right Place" and the Shoot To Retrieve dog to be hanging back and working the field like they were developed to do. There is nothing wrong with either it just boils down to development. I pick dogs that are the most successful in the venue that most resembles my hunting and my hunting style, it only makes since to me. It is not a question of which venue is all together better but which resembles what you want.

cjuve
Rank: Champion
Posts: 338
Joined: Wed Jun 18, 2008 8:17 pm
Location: Chukar hunting

Re: The ridiclious use of the term "close working NSTRA lines."

Post by cjuve » Tue Mar 16, 2010 10:58 am

I have never been one to compare one format to the other and I am not now.The only point I am making is to trial in one format versus the other, for an hour, takes just as much exertion and conditioning as the other.PERIOD
I disagree, just strap on an Astro it will tell you

Shadow
Rank: 5X Champion
Posts: 1173
Joined: Tue May 12, 2009 9:04 am

Re: The ridiclious use of the term "close working NSTRA lines."

Post by Shadow » Tue Mar 16, 2010 10:59 am

I look at it as- you take a bunch of top dogs in any situation- planted or wild- you will see them do their job- it's the nose the real breeders are breeding for

Shadow
Rank: 5X Champion
Posts: 1173
Joined: Tue May 12, 2009 9:04 am

Re: The ridiclious use of the term "close working NSTRA lines."

Post by Shadow » Tue Mar 16, 2010 11:02 am

cjuve- not necassarilly- take Rangers Barshoe Angel- might still be the winnningest female in NSTRA- she could plain out cover ground

User avatar
Yawallac
GDF Junkie
Posts: 1779
Joined: Fri Dec 16, 2005 6:53 am
Location: South Carolina

Re: The ridiclious use of the term "close working NSTRA lines."

Post by Yawallac » Tue Mar 16, 2010 11:10 am

Yawallac wrote:
That looks just like our piney woods ...only different.
Image


Ross, that is exactly what the trial grounds look like in the Nev/Northern Ca. region. Pretty much the same in Neb.too. Don't have a pic or I would post it.
Scott, if a NSTRA dog can cover that in 30 min. than I need to look at new studs! :mrgreen:

cjuve
Rank: Champion
Posts: 338
Joined: Wed Jun 18, 2008 8:17 pm
Location: Chukar hunting

Re: The ridiclious use of the term "close working NSTRA lines."

Post by cjuve » Tue Mar 16, 2010 11:11 am

Shadow wrote:cjuve- not necassarilly- take Rangers Barshoe Angel- might still be the winnningest female in NSTRA- she could plain out cover ground

And she probably could have covered more being chased off of horseback

scott townsend
Rank: Senior Hunter
Posts: 123
Joined: Tue Sep 26, 2006 9:12 am
Location: Michigan

Re: The ridiclious use of the term "close working NSTRA lines."

Post by scott townsend » Tue Mar 16, 2010 11:24 am

Greg Jennings wrote:I don't think anyone is saying it's the format. They're saying it's the cover/terrain.

I think Neil is saying that the AF hour-long courses that he's been on are usually tougher cover and terrain than the NSTRA fields he has seen. Niel, please correct me if I'm wrong.

I think another angle is the number of events that are 30 minutes versus an hour. People will have to chime in on that.


Greg J.

Greg you hit it right on the head (the NSTRA fields he has seen) I have seen them from one end of the country to the other. If thats all Neil has seen, I can tell you, he has not seen many.
The cover and terrain will vary greatly from one field to the next.They will range from no objectives to tons of objectives.The type of covers will range from pure fescue (try to find a bird in that) to cactus, sage , thorns and rocks, palmettos, switch grass, blue stem and wooded lots.
Who a person chooses to believe is up to each individual reader, but I am telling you I have drug my butt up those chucker hills in Mont, Nev, and Ca. with sweat rolling into my eyes, running in NSTRA trials, enough to make me appreciate the flats in Mi.
I guess the one true way to find out what it takes for a dog and what the field are really like, would be to run the circuit for a few years and wear out a few trucks and a few dogs to get good idea of it.

User avatar
Richard *UT*
Rank: Master Hunter
Posts: 210
Joined: Sat Jun 25, 2005 7:28 pm
Location: Kamas UT.

Re: The ridiclious use of the term "close working NSTRA lines."

Post by Richard *UT* » Tue Mar 16, 2010 11:24 am

This is what happens when one feels like others are attacking something we care deeply about. People get defensive or go on the attack. It just goes to show that there are alot of dedicated people here that celibrate dog work. Each values different aspects of dog work. For some it is the ability to clear a field, others its tracking blood and dead, and others it's run and reaching out for objectives. All are valuable and part of great dog work and that is what we are all looking for, great dog work. I think it can be said that there are dogs in every venue that we would breed to, and there are dogs within our own venues that we would not breed to, that shows that venues only go so far to show us all of what we are looking for in a great dog.

As far a grond cover goes, Ames is amazing, but think how long it has been there and the resources available. And because of that the cover there is amazing. As it should be with a National Championship.

I think this same debate could be played out if we were debating dog breeds, Politics, religion, or even chevy or ford :D
Words that soak into your ears are whispered...not yelled
http://www.perfectpedigrees.com/4genview.php?id=1618

scott townsend
Rank: Senior Hunter
Posts: 123
Joined: Tue Sep 26, 2006 9:12 am
Location: Michigan

Re: The ridiclious use of the term "close working NSTRA lines."

Post by scott townsend » Tue Mar 16, 2010 11:27 am

Yawallac wrote:
Yawallac wrote:
That looks just like our piney woods ...only different.
Image


Ross, that is exactly what the trial grounds look like in the Nev/Northern Ca. region. Pretty much the same in Neb.too. Don't have a pic or I would post it.
Scott, if a NSTRA dog can cover that in 30 min. than I need to look at new studs! :mrgreen:
sorry, I ment the same exact cover, not the same size.

scott townsend
Rank: Senior Hunter
Posts: 123
Joined: Tue Sep 26, 2006 9:12 am
Location: Michigan

Re: The ridiclious use of the term "close working NSTRA lines."

Post by scott townsend » Tue Mar 16, 2010 11:31 am

Shadow wrote:cjuve- not necassarilly- take Rangers Barshoe Angel- might still be the winnningest female in NSTRA- she could plain out cover ground

I have ran against Angel several times. She is the real deal, handled by an extremely talented trainer/trialer. There are allot of dogs in that game that go as big as she does.

User avatar
Richard *UT*
Rank: Master Hunter
Posts: 210
Joined: Sat Jun 25, 2005 7:28 pm
Location: Kamas UT.

Re: The ridiclious use of the term "close working NSTRA lines."

Post by Richard *UT* » Tue Mar 16, 2010 11:33 am

cjuve wrote:
Shadow wrote:cjuve- not necassarilly- take Rangers Barshoe Angel- might still be the winnningest female in NSTRA- she could plain out cover ground

And she probably could have covered more being chased off of horseback

This might come as a shock to you but not everyone owns a horse or even likes to hunt on horseback :lol: The fact was that that dog could cover ground. Imagine what she could of done when hunted behind a jeep, or a bullet bike :roll: It makes about as much a difference.
Words that soak into your ears are whispered...not yelled
http://www.perfectpedigrees.com/4genview.php?id=1618

scott townsend
Rank: Senior Hunter
Posts: 123
Joined: Tue Sep 26, 2006 9:12 am
Location: Michigan

Re: The ridiclious use of the term "close working NSTRA lines."

Post by scott townsend » Tue Mar 16, 2010 11:35 am

cjuve wrote:
and if you took a Top Dog from all catagories and let them all loose in a big field- what would you see
That is to vague of a question... A big field?? Are there birds? Are they planters or wild? If planters are they where they should be or are they just thrown out randomly off a quad? What spicies of bird? Are they in covies? Are you on foot? Are you on a horse? Is there objectives?

To me it is more about how and where they run not always about how big. I like big running dogs but that does you no good if they don't run in the "Right Places". IMO in terms of Western Hunting the HB trials do more to emphasize the likely areas that birds are found as opposed to a bird field because lets face it there are only so many likely areas in 80 acres out West.So to answer your question if there are no "Right Places" I would expect the experienced HB back dog to be hitting the horizon in search for the "Right Place" and the Shoot To Retrieve dog to be hanging back and working the field like they were developed to do. There is nothing wrong with either it just boils down to development. I pick dogs that are the most successful in the venue that most resembles my hunting and my hunting style, it only makes since to me. It is not a question of which venue is all together better but which resembles what you want.
I agree.

slistoe
GDF Junkie
Posts: 3612
Joined: Mon Jun 04, 2007 7:23 pm

Re: The ridiclious use of the term "close working NSTRA lines."

Post by slistoe » Tue Mar 16, 2010 11:49 am

scott townsend wrote:
cjuve wrote:
I You can twist it anyway you want Neil but bottom line an hour of running in the cover of a typical NSTRA is ZERO difference then an hour of running in the other formats in terms of conditioning and exertion.
There is no twisting about it, they are different venues made to evaluate different aspects of a bird dog and to say that they are the same in terms of conditioning and exertion is misleading at best. In the end they are both just games and it's like trying to figure out which is best...baseball or football. IMO each has it's strong points.
I have never been one to compare one format to the other and I am not now.The only point I am making is to trial in one format versus the other, for an hour, takes just as much exertion and conditioning as the other.PERIOD
And the only thing I am saying is that you have absolutely no idea what you are talking about!

I had a pretty good dog - earned an FC running in front of a horse in 1/2 hour planted birds stakes. She was as conditioned as anything on the circuit and always finished real strong to the front. I went to play with the big boys on the Prairies. 1/2 hour Shooting Dog stake braced with a pointer that had done some winning. At 12 min. the pointer picked up because he was getting beat in ground race and birds. At 25 min. I was thinking that I had a pretty good shot at the ribbons. At 27 min. I was riding with a dog that simply could not finish. She had heart and was trying, but it was obvious she had nothing left to give. We obviously didn't get a ribbon. As the old saying goes "A dog that starts strong gets noticed, a dog that finishes strong gets remembered."

An hour in one format is ABSOLUTELY NOT an hour in another format.

Birddogz
Rank: 5X Champion
Posts: 1488
Joined: Thu Feb 25, 2010 2:18 pm
Location: Garrison, ND

Re: The ridiclious use of the term "close working NSTRA lines."

Post by Birddogz » Tue Mar 16, 2010 12:03 pm

Richard *UT* wrote:
cjuve wrote:
Shadow wrote:cjuve- not necassarilly- take Rangers Barshoe Angel- might still be the winnningest female in NSTRA- she could plain out cover ground

And she probably could have covered more being chased off of horseback

This might come as a shock to you but not everyone owns a horse or even likes to hunt on horseback :lol: The fact was that that dog could cover ground. Imagine what she could of done when hunted behind a jeep, or a bullet bike :roll: It makes about as much a difference.

This is a very good point. What percentage of people hunt on horseback? 1% maybe. I hunt in country that looks almost exactly like that. I have a friend that is trying to reel his dogs in, and is getting it done this year. His dogs would hunt 1200 yards all the time. Do they find birds? Oh, yeah, but my dogs that hunt @ 300 yards are responsible for far more kills/points. They often are pointing with nothing there. There were birds there, but by the time we would arrive on foot they would have run off. Not all the time, many times the birds were there, but they had many more empty points than my dogs. Another point that I make all the time is that if my dogs are pointing more birds than the dogs that are running big, then they are running by birds. As a foot hunter, I don't want my dogs running by birds. Just makes me walk further. :lol: I want them hunting the cover closest to me first. As for objectives, I have seen sharpies on the sides of hills, in ravines, on top of hills, on flats, etc. They are basically where you find them in the sand hills of NE. You need a thorough dog that hunts at a range that allows for a foot hunter to get into position for the shot within 2-3 minutes. If an AA dog will hunt at that range, they are perfect. If a NSTRA dog will hunt at that range they are perfect. With out a horse a dog that runs really big is counter-productive. Now if he runs smaller when you're on foot, fine, but he better not run huge when I'm on foot.
Speak kindly to me, beloved master. Revel in my unconditional love, and give me every minute that you can spare, for my time with you is short.

User avatar
TAK
Rank: 5X Champion
Posts: 1389
Joined: Wed Oct 27, 2004 1:45 am
Location: Utah

Re: The ridiclious use of the term "close working NSTRA lines."

Post by TAK » Tue Mar 16, 2010 12:05 pm

slistoe wrote:
I had a pretty good dog - earned an FC running in front of a horse in 1/2 hour planted birds stakes. She was as conditioned as anything on the circuit and always finished real strong to the front. I went to play with the big boys on the Prairies. 1/2 hour Shooting Dog stake braced with a pointer that had done some winning. At 12 min. the pointer picked up because he was getting beat in ground race and birds. At 25 min. I was thinking that I had a pretty good shot at the ribbons. At 27 min. I was riding with a dog that simply could not finish. She had heart and was trying, but it was obvious she had nothing left to give. We obviously didn't get a ribbon. As the old saying goes "A dog that starts strong gets noticed, a dog that finishes strong gets remembered."

An hour in one format is ABSOLUTELY NOT an hour in another format.
I would guess this dog had some sort of medical condition or something to be getting it done at 25 and be done 2 minutes later at 27.....

Shadow
Rank: 5X Champion
Posts: 1173
Joined: Tue May 12, 2009 9:04 am

Re: The ridiclious use of the term "close working NSTRA lines."

Post by Shadow » Tue Mar 16, 2010 12:08 pm

scott townsend wrote:
Shadow wrote:cjuve- not necassarilly- take Rangers Barshoe Angel- might still be the winnningest female in NSTRA- she could plain out cover ground

I have ran against Angel several times. She is the real deal, handled by an extremely talented trainer/trialer. There are allot of dogs in that game that go as big as she does.
and then there was Rack- did you know that they were accused of cheating when they entered a money pheasant hunt/trial- because he found all the birds in 17 min

what did you think of Rack

Duane M
Rank: Champion
Posts: 316
Joined: Tue Apr 20, 2004 3:15 pm
Location: Oklahoma

Re: The ridiclious use of the term "close working NSTRA lines."

Post by Duane M » Tue Mar 16, 2010 12:14 pm

Lot closer to a golf course in those NSTRA pics than anything that I have ever hunted, my training YARD is rougher than those pics I looked at and no FT course I have ever ran on or rode gallery in looked like that. When the NBHA used bird fields those were rougher than the worst of any pic on any Amo course. Like Neil said if thats what you consider realistic hunting grounds I gotta wonder how much wild bird hunting you have done and far as covering that in an hour goes I road my dogs in this for an hour at a shot at 11 MPH.
Image

Think theres no difference in that and your grounds? If so you are deluded or just flat in denial! The dogs at Ames or any real FT course deal with far worse than that for an hour, or more, and at high speed to boot. Even more telling to the veracity of your argument is the vast majority of NSTRA do not do an hour they do 30 minutes, same as field trials do till you get to Ch level. I would like to know where all these tough NSTRA fields are at though. I have been looking at different clubs, including the Nor Cal/Nv and So Cal regions you mention and sure as heck have not seen a single pic that shows grounds that are difficult or resemble hunting grounds. Are they keeping these places such a secret that they won't even post pics of them or something :lol: This is more what I have seen on every clubs site I have looked at, not quite a golf course, if you mean the greens but I have seen roughs tougher than this on the local courses.
Image

But I gotta ask this since the retrieving issue has been brought up a few times. Does anyone think that a dog making a ret on grounds they can see a weak flying pen bird drop really proves anything? I mean come on folks it's not like these dogs are doing blinds, chasing crips or anything that proves much. My puppys start doing fetch work on fresh kills in rougher ground than any of the 5 NSTRA courses I have physically been to or any of the pics I have seen on the web, including the Amo course. I mean it's better than the set up BS I have seen at AKC and the last year that NBHA did a ret but not a heck of alot better so why make it sound like this proves anything as to a dogs ability to pick up and bring back a bird.

I don't even play the games anymore or really care about it but definitely know the difference still between a golf course and a hunting or FT field. The NSTRA fields I have looked at, every one of them, has closer resembled and unkept lawn than anything.

Shadow
Rank: 5X Champion
Posts: 1173
Joined: Tue May 12, 2009 9:04 am

Re: The ridiclious use of the term "close working NSTRA lines."

Post by Shadow » Tue Mar 16, 2010 12:21 pm

well- look at the rules of a NSTRA trial- they ask that fields be so and so-

cjuve
Rank: Champion
Posts: 338
Joined: Wed Jun 18, 2008 8:17 pm
Location: Chukar hunting

Re: The ridiclious use of the term "close working NSTRA lines."

Post by cjuve » Tue Mar 16, 2010 12:24 pm

Richard *UT* wrote:
cjuve wrote:
Shadow wrote:cjuve- not necassarilly- take Rangers Barshoe Angel- might still be the winnningest female in NSTRA- she could plain out cover ground

And she probably could have covered more being chased off of horseback

This might come as a shock to you but not everyone owns a horse or even likes to hunt on horseback :lol: The fact was that that dog could cover ground. Imagine what she could of done when hunted behind a jeep, or a bullet bike :roll: It makes about as much a difference.
Not once did not dispute the fact the dog could cover ground or was I in any way trying to downplay the dog success of that dog. I was talking about a fundamental difference in the development of a HB dog vs a Shoot to Retrieve dog in terms of conditioning and exertion. IMO there is a difference and the only way to prove it is through experience, not a big deal, a good dog is a good dog. I just choose to spend my free time in the saddle because it is what I can relate to.

User avatar
TAK
Rank: 5X Champion
Posts: 1389
Joined: Wed Oct 27, 2004 1:45 am
Location: Utah

Re: The ridiclious use of the term "close working NSTRA lines."

Post by TAK » Tue Mar 16, 2010 12:28 pm

Richard *UT* wrote:This is what happens when one feels like others are attacking something we care deeply about. People get defensive or go on the attack.
So, so true... But for the life of me I don't understand what it is about NSTRA that they love to hate! After talking to some you would have thought NSTRA had broke it off in them....

I can tell ya I like it! Been a ton of fun! But did you know that them Horseback trials are a hoot to! Different, but by god they are fun, Exciting and worth the time and money!

Best of all... There is a NSTRA trial this coming weekend... then in a couple of weeks there is an AKC trial... Going to go to both of them! I may be wrong in my thinking but I think a dog, a single dog can play in any of the formats(check book in tow) do well too!

You know another thing.... I have went to a lot of trials, not once have I ever thought after the trial that I wish I did not go to that......

Shadow
Rank: 5X Champion
Posts: 1173
Joined: Tue May 12, 2009 9:04 am

Re: The ridiclious use of the term "close working NSTRA lines."

Post by Shadow » Tue Mar 16, 2010 12:36 pm

cjuve- you should hear how yawallac conditioned his dog for NSTRA

you see a Top NSTRA dog go all out for 1/2 hour- then you see that same dog go all out for an hour in a National- condition is condition- the best need it to be in top condition-
conditions dictate how hard and long they can go- think that is what has been described here pretty well

User avatar
PntrRookie
GDF Junkie
Posts: 1888
Joined: Wed Jun 07, 2006 2:41 pm
Location: SE Wisconsin

Re: The ridiclious use of the term "close working NSTRA lines."

Post by PntrRookie » Tue Mar 16, 2010 2:13 pm

TAK wrote:...I have went to a lot of trials, not once have I ever thought after the trial that I wish I did not go to that...

I would tend to agree, but...not 100%. I ran for nearly ten years and there were MULTIPLE times I left a NSTRA trial kicking myself for traveling multiple hours to enter the 'good ol boys club', and I am sure it is not just NSTRA. :) Or maybe it is the fact that we remember the ones we got screwed in, more than we remember the good ones? Topic for a new thread...

Neil
GDF Junkie
Posts: 3187
Joined: Mon Jun 29, 2009 12:46 pm
Location: Central Arkansas

Re: The ridiclious use of the term "close working NSTRA lines."

Post by Neil » Tue Mar 16, 2010 2:25 pm

scott townsend wrote:
I have no problem being civil Neil, it just gets a little old to continually see you try to belittle the dogs and the format, based on misinformation and half truths.
Scott,

I have not belittled the dogs, in fact I have said a number of very complimentary things about them. Let me repeat, I have a lot of respect for the top NSTRA dogs, I believe they could win most anywhere if trained and developed for it.

I am giving facts, and comparing the national championship courses of NSTRA with American Field (Amo is so much better than some of the NSTRA fields I have seen I just thought it was one of the best. Why do they hold the Trial of Champions on inferior ground?)

Someone gave us photographic evidence to support my position, any reader can do their own comparisons. And Ames is not nearly as big and tough on dogs as Doug's ground out West, those in Canada, or heck Creek, or Black Prairie, or a dozen other places they run.

I have neither said nor thought anything derogatory about NSTRA dogs.

Neil

User avatar
TAK
Rank: 5X Champion
Posts: 1389
Joined: Wed Oct 27, 2004 1:45 am
Location: Utah

Re: The ridiclious use of the term "close working NSTRA lines."

Post by TAK » Tue Mar 16, 2010 2:38 pm

PntrRookie wrote:
TAK wrote:...I have went to a lot of trials, not once have I ever thought after the trial that I wish I did not go to that...

I would tend to agree, but...not 100%. I ran for nearly ten years and there were MULTIPLE times I left a NSTRA trial kicking myself for traveling multiple hours to enter the 'good ol boys club', and I am sure it is not just NSTRA. :) Or maybe it is the fact that we remember the ones we got screwed in, more than we remember the good ones? Topic for a new thread...
For me it holds true... Not saying I have not takin my beatings/screwings, but I also feel it is better than a day at work... Or heck shopping with the wife! I enjoy the BS'n, it no matter what format you run there is some good people at them.

User avatar
dudleysmith
Rank: Senior Hunter
Posts: 197
Joined: Fri Jan 23, 2009 5:42 pm
Location: between a rock and a hard place

Re: The ridiclious use of the term "close working NSTRA lines."

Post by dudleysmith » Tue Mar 16, 2010 2:51 pm

gunner wrote:NSTRA Championship Amo, IN
(looking west at A and B fields from obsevation stands)

Image

Image


My Gosh my yard is higher than that most times.....Tell me how in the hexx that running a dog in cover like that determines anything...

Shadow
Rank: 5X Champion
Posts: 1173
Joined: Tue May 12, 2009 9:04 am

Re: The ridiclious use of the term "close working NSTRA lines."

Post by Shadow » Tue Mar 16, 2010 3:13 pm

have someone plant 5 birds and the clock starts now- 30 min- you and your dog head to head with another and his dog- who ever finds, points, holds till flush, and retrieves to hand the most and does it in style is the better dog

easy to have that same thing in this field behind my house- it's a mile field

would you come to play

User avatar
gunner
Rank: 4X Champion
Posts: 603
Joined: Tue Jan 04, 2005 2:47 pm
Location: Indianapolis, IN. USA

Re: The ridiclious use of the term "close working NSTRA lines."

Post by gunner » Tue Mar 16, 2010 3:15 pm

Birdogz wrote Quote: " You need a thorough dog that hunts at a range that allows for a foot hunter to get into position for the shot within 2-3 minutes. If an AA dog will hunt at that range, they are perfect."


Here's a handler putting his All-age dog through an eye of a needle at the National BIrd Dog Championship, Ames Plantation Grand Junction, TN.
Image



Birdogz wrote, Quote " but he better not run huge when I'm on foot."

No finer sport than bird hunting on horseback. Being mounted one can much better see his dog running, hunting and handling it's birds. You'd be hard pressed to foot hunt for very long in the gumbo and land forms that some of our dogs are expected to perform. I'll take a good horse to see the doggies hunt, and see you back at the clubhouse at 5.

Image

User avatar
TAK
Rank: 5X Champion
Posts: 1389
Joined: Wed Oct 27, 2004 1:45 am
Location: Utah

Re: The ridiclious use of the term "close working NSTRA lines."

Post by TAK » Tue Mar 16, 2010 3:28 pm

gunner wrote: Here's a handler putting his All-age dog through an eye of a needle at the National BIrd Dog Championship, Ames Plantation Grand Junction, TN.
Image
It might be me... but is he reaching for the Tracker? The dog is right there!!!!! Or is that the needle in his hand? I am easily impressed but that aint gettin it for me?

User avatar
gunner
Rank: 4X Champion
Posts: 603
Joined: Tue Jan 04, 2005 2:47 pm
Location: Indianapolis, IN. USA

Re: The ridiclious use of the term "close working NSTRA lines."

Post by gunner » Tue Mar 16, 2010 3:45 pm

You guys might actually attend a traditional field trial some day and watch just how responsive those big going dogs can handle.
NO e-collars or tracking devices allowed while competing. I'm surprised many don't know this.

One of these guys could carry a tracker receiver for a handler while the dog is under judgement, but of course the dog would be out of contention if'n the handler asks for the receiver.
The dog above wears no tracking device.

Image
Last edited by gunner on Tue Mar 16, 2010 3:55 pm, edited 1 time in total.

Birddogz
Rank: 5X Champion
Posts: 1488
Joined: Thu Feb 25, 2010 2:18 pm
Location: Garrison, ND

Re: The ridiclious use of the term "close working NSTRA lines."

Post by Birddogz » Tue Mar 16, 2010 3:47 pm

Again, how many people hunt on horseback? Not many. I like the exercise of walking, I have walked many times through nasty conditions to bird hunt. Part of being a hunter. There are many places I hunt in the late season that a horse would have trouble negotiating or would be silly to release as the cover is only 20 acres or so. Also, I cross many, many tightly stretched barb wired fences. I 'm not going to jump fences all day. :lol:

I'm sure that there are superior ways to hunt and cover ground, other than horses. Hot air balloons, ultra lights, etc. I'm sure it is easier to hunt moose from an air plane, but I don't want to. :lol: Hunting with horses makes hunting much more involved, you can't just run out and hunt for an hour and a half after work. You have to load horses, saddles, trailer the horses to your area, etc. Not to mention keep horses year round. Not saying it isn't fun, just not what I, or many, want to do. I have enjoyed many hunts watching my dogs from foot, and see no reason to change. To each his own, either one being "right".
Speak kindly to me, beloved master. Revel in my unconditional love, and give me every minute that you can spare, for my time with you is short.

User avatar
smokinsam
Rank: Senior Hunter
Posts: 129
Joined: Sun Feb 14, 2010 12:48 pm
Location: michigan

Re: The ridiclious use of the term "close working NSTRA lines."

Post by smokinsam » Tue Mar 16, 2010 4:07 pm

Birddogz wrote:Again, how many people hunt on horseback? Not many. I like the exercise of walking, I have walked many times through nasty conditions to bird hunt. Part of being a hunter. There are many places I hunt in the late season that a horse would have trouble negotiating or would be silly to release as the cover is only 20 acres or so. Also, I cross many, many tightly stretched barb wired fences. I 'm not going to jump fences all day. :lol:

I'm sure that there are superior ways to hunt and cover ground, other than horses. Hot air balloons, ultra lights, etc. I'm sure it is easier to hunt moose from an air plane, but I don't want to. :lol: Hunting with horses makes hunting much more involved, you can't just run out and hunt for an hour and a half after work. You have to load horses, saddles, trailer the horses to your area, etc. Not to mention keep horses year round. Not saying it isn't fun, just not what I, or many, want to do. I have enjoyed many hunts watching my dogs from foot, and see no reason to change. To each his own, either one being "right".
I agree 110%.

And I find it hard to believe that a dog hunting on 1200 acres so far gone it can barely be seen is hunting for anyone but itself.
The last thing I want, is to need a horse to chase a dog hunting for itself.JMO
Also,If you can't shoot a bird for the dog after he does all that work than what exactly is the dogs reward.does the dog get nothing out of it except tired and thirsty?Is it just for the handlers ego?
In NSTRA the dog gets the reward which is the bird obviously.
Maybe Im just not a traditional trial guy but when my dog does good work it results in birds for him and points for me,like a team.
I just dont see the benefit for the dog if you cant let him at least see a shot bird.

slistoe
GDF Junkie
Posts: 3612
Joined: Mon Jun 04, 2007 7:23 pm

Re: The ridiclious use of the term "close working NSTRA lines."

Post by slistoe » Tue Mar 16, 2010 4:23 pm

TAK wrote:
slistoe wrote:
I had a pretty good dog - earned an FC running in front of a horse in 1/2 hour planted birds stakes. She was as conditioned as anything on the circuit and always finished real strong to the front. I went to play with the big boys on the Prairies. 1/2 hour Shooting Dog stake braced with a pointer that had done some winning. At 12 min. the pointer picked up because he was getting beat in ground race and birds. At 25 min. I was thinking that I had a pretty good shot at the ribbons. At 27 min. I was riding with a dog that simply could not finish. She had heart and was trying, but it was obvious she had nothing left to give. We obviously didn't get a ribbon. As the old saying goes "A dog that starts strong gets noticed, a dog that finishes strong gets remembered."

An hour in one format is ABSOLUTELY NOT an hour in another format.
I would guess this dog had some sort of medical condition or something to be getting it done at 25 and be done 2 minutes later at 27.....
Yeah, that must have been it. :lol: You have no clue do you?

At 25 min. we crossed the fence from a piece of good cover to a mowed alfalfa field no more than 3" tall. On the far fence 1/2 mile away was the next objective. We needed to reach for that. She absolutely did not have the stuff to get there ahead of a horse moving out at 6 1/2 mph. I could have pulled up the horse and given her time to reach, but that wouldn't get us any brownie points either. There were other dogs in the stake that got it done.

slistoe
GDF Junkie
Posts: 3612
Joined: Mon Jun 04, 2007 7:23 pm

Re: The ridiclious use of the term "close working NSTRA lines."

Post by slistoe » Tue Mar 16, 2010 4:30 pm

Birddogz wrote:
Richard *UT* wrote:
cjuve wrote:
And she probably could have covered more being chased off of horseback

This might come as a shock to you but not everyone owns a horse or even likes to hunt on horseback :lol: The fact was that that dog could cover ground. Imagine what she could of done when hunted behind a jeep, or a bullet bike :roll: It makes about as much a difference.

This is a very good point. What percentage of people hunt on horseback?
Maybe this will be a shock to some, but it shouldn't be to any reasonable thinking person.

No one trials from horseback because they believe you should hunt from horseback. They trial from horseback because a trial is not a hunt, it is a test of dogs. It is designed to push dogs to the limits of physical ability, to challenge dogs to hunt and to handle. It is to push the dogs to the point that seperation of the good dogs from the also rans is possible. This generally requires the use of a horse - it is not possible to test the physical limits of a dog in 1/2 hour without one. It is not possible to force the top physical specimens of any breed to make decisions about hunt vs. handle without a horse. It is not about hunting, it is about seperating the hunting dogs.

User avatar
smokinsam
Rank: Senior Hunter
Posts: 129
Joined: Sun Feb 14, 2010 12:48 pm
Location: michigan

Re: The ridiclious use of the term "close working NSTRA lines."

Post by smokinsam » Tue Mar 16, 2010 4:41 pm

Yawallac wrote:
Killing birds for bird dogs? What a ludicrous idea...
My understanding is that the problem was "killing birds for points" not necessarily "killing birds for bird dogs".
what's the difference?

Birddogz
Rank: 5X Champion
Posts: 1488
Joined: Thu Feb 25, 2010 2:18 pm
Location: Garrison, ND

Re: The ridiclious use of the term "close working NSTRA lines."

Post by Birddogz » Tue Mar 16, 2010 4:46 pm

So, test a hunting dog in a way that almost no one hunts, so that you can push the dog to limits that a dog while hunting would almost never achieve. This way you can see which one is the best hunting dog. :roll: That makes sense. :lol: The logic is a little cloudy.

Don't get me wrong, I have no problem with trialing, I think it is a cool game. If you like it, do it. I just don't think a dog that runs that far/fast makes it a superior hunting dog. I think it makes it a superior FT dog. FTing isn't hunting. FT dogs can be great hunting dogs though, and they produce very good genes.
Speak kindly to me, beloved master. Revel in my unconditional love, and give me every minute that you can spare, for my time with you is short.

Neil
GDF Junkie
Posts: 3187
Joined: Mon Jun 29, 2009 12:46 pm
Location: Central Arkansas

Re: The ridiclious use of the term "close working NSTRA lines."

Post by Neil » Tue Mar 16, 2010 4:48 pm

I would guess this dog had some sort of medical condition or something to be getting it done at 25 and be done 2 minutes later at 27.....
It is called hitting the "wall", I see it happen more at 55 minutes, or 2 and 45 minutes, as I ride more hour and 3 hour braces, but sure it can happen at 27 minutes. However much it is, they all only have so much.

Now, as with human runners, they can sometimes run through it and get a second wind, never at the speed at first, but enough to be competitive. With only 3 minutes to go, there would be no way to hide the dog until he recovered and still impress the judges with the big finish so necessary to win.

Oh, and I think top NSTRA dogs are great,

Neil

User avatar
snips
GDF Junkie
Posts: 5542
Joined: Mon Apr 12, 2004 7:26 am
Location: n.ga.

Re: The ridiclious use of the term "close working NSTRA lines."

Post by snips » Tue Mar 16, 2010 4:51 pm

That picture of Amo has to be a spring pic, fall it is always great with loads of cover...After the winter snow and rain it can be pretty bad in spring...Same as our birdfield...
brenda

User avatar
smokinsam
Rank: Senior Hunter
Posts: 129
Joined: Sun Feb 14, 2010 12:48 pm
Location: michigan

Re: The ridiclious use of the term "close working NSTRA lines."

Post by smokinsam » Tue Mar 16, 2010 5:10 pm

Oh, and I think top NSTRA dogs are great,

Neil

because they are,as is the top dogs that run in any venue.I hope to have a top dog in NSTRA someday myself.
I have limited trial expierience and am not a proffessional trainer/handler but I have a hard time understanding the purpose of having a bird dog in a "bird dog" trial just to see how fast and far it can go.
go get some grey hounds and a rabbit,it would make more sense.JMO

User avatar
Yawallac
GDF Junkie
Posts: 1779
Joined: Fri Dec 16, 2005 6:53 am
Location: South Carolina

Re: The ridiclious use of the term "close working NSTRA lines."

Post by Yawallac » Tue Mar 16, 2010 5:12 pm

Yawallac wrote:
Killing birds for bird dogs? What a ludicrous idea...

My understanding is that the problem was "killing birds for points" not necessarily "killing birds for bird dogs".

what's the difference?
You'll have to ask Bernie that question, not me.

slistoe
GDF Junkie
Posts: 3612
Joined: Mon Jun 04, 2007 7:23 pm

Re: The ridiclious use of the term "close working NSTRA lines."

Post by slistoe » Tue Mar 16, 2010 5:14 pm

smokinsam wrote: I have a hard time understanding the purpose of having a bird dog in a "bird dog" trial just to see how fast and far it can go.
go get some grey hounds and a rabbit,it would make more sense.JMO
So, you don't think that endurance, grit and heart, handle and nose have anything to do with being a hunting dog?

User avatar
smokinsam
Rank: Senior Hunter
Posts: 129
Joined: Sun Feb 14, 2010 12:48 pm
Location: michigan

Re: The ridiclious use of the term "close working NSTRA lines."

Post by smokinsam » Tue Mar 16, 2010 5:20 pm

slistoe wrote:
smokinsam wrote: I have a hard time understanding the purpose of having a bird dog in a "bird dog" trial just to see how fast and far it can go.
go get some grey hounds and a rabbit,it would make more sense.JMO
So, you don't think that endurance, grit and heart, handle and nose have anything to do with being a hunting dog?
what does the dog get out of it besides exercise?
I dont see the benefit for the dog other than that.
I personally dont care for it.

vzkennels

Re: The ridiclious use of the term "close working NSTRA lines."

Post by vzkennels » Tue Mar 16, 2010 5:34 pm

Sam are you one of those hunters that don't want anything to do with those Field trial bred lines of dogs? Just Asking? :D

slistoe
GDF Junkie
Posts: 3612
Joined: Mon Jun 04, 2007 7:23 pm

Re: The ridiclious use of the term "close working NSTRA lines."

Post by slistoe » Tue Mar 16, 2010 5:39 pm

smokinsam wrote:
slistoe wrote:
smokinsam wrote: I have a hard time understanding the purpose of having a bird dog in a "bird dog" trial just to see how fast and far it can go.
go get some grey hounds and a rabbit,it would make more sense.JMO
So, you don't think that endurance, grit and heart, handle and nose have anything to do with being a hunting dog?
what does the dog get out of it besides exercise?
I dont see the benefit for the dog other than that.
I personally dont care for it.
Oh, yes. Quality of life for the dog. I will give him a shot of brandy and a cigar at night when he dons his evening jacket. I will have a tailored shooting jacket for him when he runs. Life will be good!

Give me a break! The dog gets to go hunting! It is what the dog lives for!

Locked