The ridiclious use of the term "close working NSTRA lines."

[Drifter Saver]

Sam are you one of those hunters that don't want anything to do with those Field trial bred lines of dogs? Just Asking?

Based on his signature pedigree, I don't think so. It appears his dog is a product from a couple of top dogs from both NGSPA and NSTRA.

[smokinsam]

Oh, yes. Quality of life for the dog. I will give him a shot of brandy and a cigar at night when he dons his evening jacket. I will have a tailored shooting jacket for him when he runs. Life will be good!

Give me a break! The dog gets to go hunting! It is what the dog lives for![/quote]

hahahaha
that is funny!
I wouldnt go to that extent but you get what im sayin.
call it what you want just not for me.
why is that an issue for you.do I not a right to express my oppinion because I dont agree with you.

[vzkennels]

Exactly DS that was my point.Scott & I talked one night on the phone for hr and a half about hunters who say they don't want any dogs from FC lines but they don't realise that the best hunting dogs come from the exact lines they say they don't like or want.They are one & the same.
I ran into guy this hunting season that has some dogs from Scott that in turn made that very same comment to me.

[Drifter Saver]

Reading these threads kills me. They are all just different venues to gauge a dog against different measurables. NONE ARE ANY BETTER THAN ANY OTHER. I live in Michigan and our primary game birds are rough grouse in thick young aspen growth. I hunt the heck out of them. Any dog that hunts in the woods beyond 100-150 yards is basically useless when it comes to HUNTING. I also go to Southern Kansas a couple of times every year to chase bobs and pheasant. Any dog that hunts out there consistently greater than 100-200 yards is usually useless for HUNTING. I went to Iowa for 12 straight years hunting primarily pheasant. Any dog that hunts in Iowa greater than 100-150 yards is not very productive for HUNTING. I have also hunted quail in Oklahoma and several species in Wyoming. Those states usually HUNT well at about 250-350 yards. I always hunt from foot.

I compete quite a bit in NSTRA. My dogs are fairly competitive. They range in a NSTRA field anywhere between 30 yards (when I call them in) and out to as far as the field will allow (sometimes 300-400 yards).

Personally, no other venue fits me and what I expect out of my dogs when I hunt...which is to hunt hard (for the handler), be stylish, point, back, retrieve and ultimately be routinely productive on game. I hunt with a few people who run Cover dog trial setters in Michigan, NGSPA GSP's in Kansas and AF Pointers in Iowa...my dogs never get out-hunted or out-classed.

Each game requires a specific type of training and the weak dogs usually get washed out or don't ultimately compete at the highest levels.

[smokinsam]

Exactly DS that was my point.Scott & I talked one night on the phone for hr and a half about hunters who say they don't want any dogs from FC lines but they don't realise that the best hunting dogs come from the exact lines they say they don't like or want.They are one & the same.
I ran into guy this hunting season that has some dogs from Scott that in turn made that very same comment to me.

I dont know what your point is?
I researched the breed of dog and the bloodline that i wanted and decided scott was where I wanted to get my dog from.
I went and watched fritz and a few other dogs from him and made my decision.

what comment are you referring to.

[smokinsam]

If you think I have no idea what my dogs line consists of you couldnt be anymore wrong.
just ask nex time no need for verbal judo

[Duane M]

Funny outside Michigan and Iowa I have hunted all those places with dogs that hunt at least twice what you say is useless for hunting and came back with full bags most times. Wonder what the difference is our experiences on the exact same lands are More I wonder why Oklahoma land that is usually much more rolling than Kansas supposedly allows for a dog to run a minimum distance that is more than the max for the Kansas dog where the land is far flatter. Interesting :roll:

[smokinsam]

drifter saver
you said it right.
I couldnt find the words but you just did it for me.
well said

[vzkennels]

The comment I have heard from hunters is I don't want dogs from Field trial lines they are useless for hunting.My point is the best hunting dogs come from those very lines they are one & the same it only depends on how the are trained to handle.If you think a dog can't run 1/2 mile from HB & be hunted on foot the next day you are mistaken.If you have only hunted your dog or field trialed never both how do you know what your dog is capable of.I'm not saying or never have said one venue is better then the other.I'm just saying dogs have brains & they can adjust if given the chance.If he can't adjust then to me he is useless.

[vzkennels]

Here is just another thought,you say a dog that's 1200 yrds away is hunting for it's self.Then tell me why that dog would stand there as long as it takes for the handler to get there & work the birds if was self hunting?

[smokinsam]

Here is just another thought,you say a dog that's 1200 yrds away is hunting for it's self.Then tell me why that dog would stand there as long as it takes for the handler to get there & work the birds if was self hunting?

I said 1200 acres.not yrds.and if the dog holds that long than thats great but shoot the bird.let him go get it.

I trial and hunt with the same dog and know what he is capable of.
he is a great hunting partner and with a little more work he can be a great trial dog also.
thats why I got him.
Im not saying one is better that the other either.
I never horseback trialed and probably never will.
NSTRA is what I enjoy because thats what fits me for what I want to do with my dog.

[Drifter Saver]

Funny outside Michigan and Iowa I have hunted all those places with dogs that hunt at least twice what you say is useless for hunting and came back with full bags most times. Wonder what the difference is our experiences on the exact same lands are More I wonder why Oklahoma land that is usually much more rolling than Kansas supposedly allows for a dog to run a minimum distance that is more than the max for the Kansas dog where the land is far flatter. Interesting :roll:

Full bags in Kansas can be had without even running dogs. If your dogs ranged at twice my stated range in most of Kansas, your dogs would almost always be out of the fields. I have hunted from Outside Wichita to West of Pratt and up to Norton (lots of friends out there). Twice my stated range puts your dogs out of almost all of the fields (or there wouldn't be much of a need for the handler to step into it). Also, you would just be pushing birds as you walk if your dogs were that much further out. If you are only referring to the Southern Kansas pastures and sand hills, then I would say that my typical Ok range would apply (they are only separated from a line in the sand). The point ultimately is that likely 90+ percent of the upland hunting done in this country is on foot with shooting dog range animals. I also believe that 80-90 percent of the foot hunters out there don't want much to do with anything that even comes close to pushing beyond the shooting dog range. Truthfully, that is probably part of why NSTRA has remained a strong organization with over 2000 members nationally (all while without having a registry recognition for the titles). The facts are that most people hunt to hunt (a few times per year). They would likely be happier with a dog that goes hunting, runs at 30-75 yards, produces birds, doesn't get lost, checks back in, is great in the house with kids and isn't aggressive. The game argument is like saying that football is better than basketball which is better than hockey...that order would be different in every area of the country...just like the dog games. NSTRA probably isn't the most practical gauge for chukar country, but anything AA isn't the practical gauge for the great lake states.

I appreciate any good animal, and you better like the game that you are playing because they cost too much to not enjoy it.

[slistoe]

Oh, yes. Quality of life for the dog. I will give him a shot of brandy and a cigar at night when he dons his evening jacket. I will have a tailored shooting jacket for him when he runs. Life will be good!

Give me a break! The dog gets to go hunting! It is what the dog lives for!

hahahaha
that is funny!
I wouldnt go to that extent but you get what im sayin.
call it what you want just not for me.
why is that an issue for you.do I not a right to express my oppinion because I dont agree with you.

I am all for you expressing your opinion but when you qualify that opinion with a comment that is just plain stupid and shows a complete and total lack of knowledge or a purposeful deception then it bothers me.

I have a hard time understanding the purpose of having a bird dog in a "bird dog" trial just to see how fast and far it can go.
go get some grey hounds and a rabbit,it would make more sense.JMO

Don't run in horseback stakes if you don't like to. But at least understand their place and what they have contributed to the dog in your house. And for goodness sake do not, DO NOT intimate for one second that there is a top trial dog that does not LOVE what it is doing. That is the height of ignorance.

[TAK]

I had a pretty good dog - earned an FC running in front of a horse in 1/2 hour planted birds stakes. She was as conditioned as anything on the circuit and always finished real strong to the front. I went to play with the big boys on the Prairies. 1/2 hour Shooting Dog stake braced with a pointer that had done some winning. At 12 min. the pointer picked up because he was getting beat in ground race and birds. At 25 min. I was thinking that I had a pretty good shot at the ribbons. At 27 min. I was riding with a dog that simply could not finish. She had heart and was trying, but it was obvious she had nothing left to give. We obviously didn't get a ribbon. As the old saying goes "A dog that starts strong gets noticed, a dog that finishes strong gets remembered."

An hour in one format is ABSOLUTELY NOT an hour in another format.

I would guess this dog had some sort of medical condition or something to be getting it done at 25 and be done 2 minutes later at 27.....

Yeah, that must have been it. You have no clue do you?

At 25 min. we crossed the fence from a piece of good cover to a mowed alfalfa field no more than 3" tall. On the far fence 1/2 mile away was the next objective. We needed to reach for that. She absolutely did not have the stuff to get there ahead of a horse moving out at 6 1/2 mph. I could have pulled up the horse and given her time to reach, but that wouldn't get us any brownie points either. There were other dogs in the stake that got it done.

Well that is kinda snobby don't ya think? Ya done went and added more to the storey than you wrote out before... Did ya expect me to fill in the blanks... Ya had me at 25-27!

[slistoe]

Added more to the story? A conditioned dog that was more than capable of winning any time it was put on the ground and finished strong and hard to the front in one format hit the wall and had nothing left to give in another - you couldn't/wouldn't/didn't accept it. Just helping you along.

[TAK]

I would guess this dog had some sort of medical condition or something to be getting it done at 25 and be done 2 minutes later at 27.....

It is called hitting the "wall", I see it happen more at 55 minutes, or 2 and 45 minutes, as I ride more hour and 3 hour braces, but sure it can happen at 27 minutes. However much it is, they all only have so much.

Now, as with human runners, they can sometimes run through it and get a second wind, never at the speed at first, but enough to be competitive. With only 3 minutes to go, there would be no way to hide the dog until he recovered and still impress the judges with the big finish so necessary to win.

Oh, and I think top NSTRA dogs are great,

Neil

I understand what your saying, but I question a dog that hits a wall at 30 minutes... any venue. It can be conditioning, it could be a whole lot of things, might even be medical... I never had the bennifit of the part 2 of the saga to go with until now, which explains a lot.....

[TAK]

Added more to the story? A conditioned dog that was more than capable of winning any time it was put on the ground and finished strong and hard to the front in one format hit the wall and had nothing left to give in another - you couldn't/wouldn't/didn't accept it. Just helping you along.

Is this computer on.... Hello Hello HELLO!

Dude/dudette, not sure if your man or woman and that is not being harsh with ya! But you added more to the brace you ran there.... The firs post said the dog was gettin it done at 25 and at 27 it was boot lickin ya, no more in the tank, kaput, done, finished.....
So how many finds did ya have......

[slistoe]

Hey babette, no harshness felt.

I had one find less than I needed. A find at 23 and she would have pushed the field. But the standard of the stake dictates that I need enough dog power to finish - even if there were no finds. I brought as much dog power as the other venue had to offer - and it wasn't enough. If you still want to believe that an hour run in a NSTRA field is equivalent to an hour run at a major AA stake I can't help you and neither can anyone else.

[TAK]

Hey babette, no harshness felt.

I had one find less than I needed. A find at 23 and she would have pushed the field.

See your adding more to the story man! Now, I can almost feel like I was in the saddle next to ya! Now please tell me it was a GSP! DO ME that one favor! Tell me it was a short tail puttin it to the long tails! OK I might be bringing up the rear, I still ride a 1/4 horse for my horseback trials! But if you want to have a full on race I am your Daisy!

[TAK]

Hey babette, no harshness felt.

I had one find less than I needed. A find at 23 and she would have pushed the field. But the standard of the stake dictates that I need enough dog power to finish - even if there were no finds. I brought as much dog power as the other venue had to offer - and it wasn't enough. If you still want to believe that an hour run in a NSTRA field is equivalent to an hour run at a major AA stake I can't help you and neither can anyone else.

Now "bleep" you, ya went and added more while I was responding to the first part of this... What gives?

And by the way I never said I agreed that a NSTRA hour was like a AA hour... At least not in the Doc's world..... Flat ground, ya maybe, somewhat..... BUT I also believe it is the format and not the dogs that divide that up......

[slistoe]

Hey babette, no harshness felt.

I had one find less than I needed. A find at 23 and she would have pushed the field.

See your adding more to the story man! Now, I can almost feel like I was in the saddle next to ya! Now please tell me it was a GSP! DO ME that one favor! Tell me it was a short tail puttin it to the long tails! OK I might be bringing up the rear, I still ride a 1/4 horse for my horseback trials! But if you want to have a full on race I am your Daisy!

Brittany. But I wasn't putting it to anyone in the end because we couldn't git'r'done.

I was riding an Arab. I might have handled the horse race better.

[vzkennels]

Drifter Saver I'm having a hard time understanding why a dog would be out of the field if it is so full of birds that you don't need a dog to fill your limit.Would that dog run past all those birds to go to the next field ?
I would think he would point your limit long before he got to the next field or at least flush a bird or 2 which means he would STF & wait till you get there to release him or am I thinking to much ?
Maybe I'm just too old to unerstand.

[slistoe]

And by the way I never said I agreed that a NSTRA hour was like a AA hour... At least not in the Doc's world..... Flat ground, ya maybe, somewhat..... BUT I also believe it is the format and not the dogs that divide that up......

My apologies for thinking you were jumping on the Scott T. bandwagon.

Doesn't get much flatter than Mortlach, SK.

[hustonmc]

This thread wasn't about one venue versus another. It's a thread about the fact the many people believe that a NSTRA dog have no range, which I believe is a ridiculous statement. The NSTRA venue doesn't campaign a dogs range, but doesn't mean he can't do it. While foot hunting here in the west I push my dogs as far I feel spry enough to walk. I've felt pretty spry sometimes and would have regretted the 400ft climb back to the top if I hadn't witnessed my dogs awesome manners and had 2 chukar in my pouch. I've covered miles, my dogs covered 10 times that.

AGAIN, don't judge a dog on it's venue......................judge the dog.

[TAK]

And by the way I never said I agreed that a NSTRA hour was like a AA hour... At least not in the Doc's world..... Flat ground, ya maybe, somewhat..... BUT I also believe it is the format and not the dogs that divide that up......

My apologies for thinking you were jumping on the Scott T. bandwagon.

Doesn't get much flatter than Mortlach, SK.

I kinda man my own wagon around here! But, I also did not say I did not agree an hour is an hour. The thing is your asking different things out of the dogs. In NSTRA there is even cover or many objectives a dog needs to find the birds in.... the dog may not go over the hill, or go out of sight, but it is moving and you straiten that out and you would be really suprized. I am not saying one format is better, or demands more of a dog, I don't care if it is snowing or there is mud, I have ran trials in all of that and to add temps around the 20 below mark or sometimes 104! Maybe NSTRA in Utah is a different game, but we don't have fields that are mowed, and there has been times that dogs ended up pointing Sage Hens, and one trial down near St. George I had a dog point a covey of Gamble Quail in a brace. We pick fields that resemble very much of what we hunt in. And to answer the Doc's statement about putting a trial on a chukar hill or something like that... We did that too! Really not all that fun to walk up and down that for 30 minutes! Let alone 8 times in a weekend!

[TAK]

AGAIN, don't judge a dog on it's venue......................judge the dog.

[Birddogz]

Tell me this, why don't people with AA dogs want to take wagers? First 3 guys back to the truck with a limit? They live in FT rules. They know their dogs won't win, so they make up reasons why their dogs are still superior. AA dogs might be great dogs, but there are many "meat" dogs that will destroy them. They are made to compete in the FT world. Show me an AA dog that retrieves ducks in the morning, and points limits of pheasants, sharptails, quail, huns, etc. better than the best meat dog. Doesn't happen. They live in theory, not reality. Are AA dogs awesome? Heck yes! They simply don't have the experience that a great "meat" dog has. They have great genetics, but if it isn't applied, there isn't much. The arrogance of the FT guys is what makes them look silly. They remind me of the guys that say I could have been great. Ya, but you weren't. Head to head, I will take serious money on "meat" dogs. I don't care how far you run, if it isn't resulting in game.

[cody]

They remind me of the guys that say I could have been great. Ya, but you weren't. Head to head, I will take serious money on "meat" dogs.

This is confusing, if anybody is going head to head it is the FT's, they put there dogs down with the best no matter the conditions, they put there money where there mouth is. If you want to prove your meat dog bring it to the line, it is a humbling experience, trust me. If you want meat in the bag get a lab.

[Birddogz]

I would love a competition between my "meat" dogs and a FT dog. First guy back with his limit. I would be ALL over that bet. Bring it. Not big money, but I believe I will win easily.

[Birddogz]

A lab is better than your dogs? Why have an inferior bird finder?

[DGFavor]

I don't care how far you run, if it isn't resulting in game.

We cut loose a couple "runners" today. Took us about 10 minutes to hoof it to this one today using some telemetry. Walking. I think she was out of bounds. Stupid dog.


This one was only a few minutes of tracking. Stupid dog.


Bang. Another for the stew pot. Dang, had to walk about 5 minutes for that one. Stupid dog.

Show me an AA dog that retrieves ducks in the morning, and points limits of pheasants, sharptails, quail, huns, etc. better than the best meat dog.

In my world, and most of the folks I know that trial in the off season, they're one and the same (except for the duck part, what's up with shooting ducks??) - here's a couple NGSPA AA championship weiners doing meat dog duty for their day jobs. Come on out and we'll have some fun! Your dog back OK?
Chuk:


Quail:


Sharptail:


Huns:


OK, I couldn't come up with any of my AA winners hauling back a phez, how about an 1 hour SD championship winner instead:


We'll wait for ya' at the truck.

[cjuve]

Tell me this, why don't people with AA dogs want to take wagers? First 3 guys back to the truck with a limit? They live in FT rules. They know their dogs won't win, so they make up reasons why their dogs are still superior. AA dogs might be great dogs, but there are many "meat" dogs that will destroy them. They are made to compete in the FT world. Show me an AA dog that retrieves ducks in the morning, and points limits of pheasants, sharptails, quail, huns, etc. better than the best meat dog. Doesn't happen. They live in theory, not reality. Are AA dogs awesome? Heck yes! They simply don't have the experience that a great "meat" dog has. They have great genetics, but if it isn't applied, there isn't much. The arrogance of the FT guys is what makes them look silly. They remind me of the guys that say I could have been great. Ya, but you weren't. Head to head, I will take serious money on "meat" dogs. I don't care how far you run, if it isn't resulting in game.

Here is a pic of my non-hunting derby at 6mos:

Here is another pic of my 2 non-hunting derby's and the washout that I gave away

Believe me when I say that I train my hunting dogs to trial
Why don't ya come out here and play on my training grounds I will even show ya around:


I would even take your bet

[DGFavor]

Why don't ya come out here and play on my training grounds I will even show ya around:


I would even take your bet

Pick me, pick me!! But I ain't bettin' with ya' - looks like a losing proposition!

I tell ya' one of the most avid, aggressive bird shooters I've seen is Richie Robertson, a very successful AA trainer/handler. You better be loaded up and hoofin' it to a point or he's gonna be blazin' away with the Red Label without ya'. Cracks me up!

[Birddogz]

Bring it in SD! I want to see those dogs hunt cattails, efficiently. South Dakota vs. your dogs. I 'll take mine every time. Money is no problem. Let's go! My dogs will school yours in the art of the rooster. Beautiful pics, but bring it! It takes a perfect dog to hunt phez in late season.

[Razor]

Tell me this, why don't people with AA dogs want to take wagers? First 3 guys back to the truck with a limit? They live in FT rules. They know their dogs won't win, so they make up reasons why their dogs are still superior. AA dogs might be great dogs, but there are many "meat" dogs that will destroy them. They are made to compete in the FT world. Show me an AA dog that retrieves ducks in the morning, and points limits of pheasants, sharptails, quail, huns, etc. better than the best meat dog. Doesn't happen. They live in theory, not reality. Are AA dogs awesome? Heck yes! They simply don't have the experience that a great "meat" dog has. They have great genetics, but if it isn't applied, there isn't much. The arrogance of the FT guys is what makes them look silly. They remind me of the guys that say I could have been great. Ya, but you weren't. Head to head, I will take serious money on "meat" dogs. I don't care how far you run, if it isn't resulting in game.

The boys from Idaho will make you look like a fool. Fair warning.

[Birddogz]

I seiously doubt that. SD birds are the most pursued. Bring it! I will woop their azz in 1 hour! 1 hour, most birds!

[Razor]

I have a dog like you and I would not make the bet. I do not care what you scored in the VGP, you will lose on their birds. Phez you might have a chance.

[birddog1968]

Tell me this, why don't people with AA dogs want to take wagers? First 3 guys back to the truck with a limit? . I don't care how far you run, if it isn't resulting in game.

I have to say, and I guess i only speak for myself, and this is where i was going earlier but was out of town.

Running birddogs is about so much more than how fast you can fill a game bag....

A dog that produces a bag in 30 minutes and looks so so doing it will never outdo a dog with flawless
looks and gait and manners around birds in my book. I'm all about the chase and I'm gettin too old to
walk behind an ugly dog

[Birddogz]

I can't imagine some one winning that doesn't hunt SD. I hunt as many pretty places, but my dogs hunt phez better than yours. I'll bet you money. Purely numbers! You vs. me! Come on !

[cjuve]

I have a dog like you and I would not make the bet. I do not care what you scored in the VGP, you will lose on their birds. Phez you might have a chance.

As I am sure I would loose on his birds.... It's about the development of the dog period.

[Birddogz]

Tell me this, why don't people with AA dogs want to take wagers? First 3 guys back to the truck with a limit? . I don't care how far you run, if it isn't resulting in game.

I have to say, and I guess i only speak for myself, and this is where i was going earlier but was out of town.

Running birddogs is about so much more than how fast you can fill a game bag....

A dog that produces a bag in 30 minutes and looks so so doing it will never outdo a dog with flawless
looks and gait and manners around birds in my book. I'm all about the chase and I'm gettin too old to
walk behind an ugly dog

You must be a shytty hunter. Your dog produces less, and they e still good? Spoken like a guy who kills few birds!

[Birddogz]

I can't imagine some one winning that doesn't hunt SD. I hunt as many pretty places, but my dogs hunt phez better than yours. I'll bet you money. Purely numbers! You vs. me! Come on !

Killing birds is the winner. My goodness! Punks need not apply!

[Birddogz]

I'm sorry. I will take my dogs over yours. Phez in SD are amazing! Your scenery is beautiful. I bet in SD you lose! Bring it!

[cody]

Bring it in SD! I want to see those dogs hunt cattails, efficiently. South Dakota vs. your dogs.

What good does a pointing dog do you in cattails in SD? In my experience you didn't even need a bird dog, like shooting fish in barrel, except they were flying....everywhere.

[birddog1968]

Tell me this, why don't people with AA dogs want to take wagers? First 3 guys back to the truck with a limit? . I don't care how far you run, if it isn't resulting in game.

I have to say, and I guess i only speak for myself, and this is where i was going earlier but was out of town.

Running birddogs is about so much more than how fast you can fill a game bag....

A dog that produces a bag in 30 minutes and looks so so doing it will never outdo a dog with flawless
looks and gait and manners around birds in my book. I'm all about the chase and I'm gettin too old to
walk behind an ugly dog

You must be a shytty hunter. Your dog produces less, and they e still good? Spoken like a guy who kills few birds!

again you miss the point

[Birddogz]

Bring it in SD! I want to see those dogs hunt cattails, efficiently. South Dakota vs. your dogs.

What good does a pointing dog do you in cattails in SD? In my experience you didn't even need a bird dog, like shooting fish in barrel, except they were flying....everywhere.

Spoken like a guy who doesn't shoot 1/10th the phez I do. Bring it! You against me. I know it isn't fair, but try!

You can't handle the truth! Bring those dogs on, they will never handle phez like my meat dogs! What are they going to do with birds that hunt with out abandon?

[cody]

Husker Buckeye?

[birddog1968]

insults.....really? Well now i know......

My grandmother can kill chickens.

[cody]

My grandmother can kill chickens

She may be able to kill chickens but not MORE chickens then Birdogz

[Birddogz]

A dog that can't hang is perfect. Dogs that win make it perfect.