Breeding Philosphy

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D2shorthairs
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Breeding Philosphy

Post by D2shorthairs » Fri Mar 26, 2010 12:54 pm

If you have experience breeding outstanding dogs or buying pups that become outstanding dogs I am curious if there is a certain breeding philosophy that you feel 1.) produces more outstanding individuals and/or 2.) produces more outstanding individuals who can produce the same. I ask about two scenerios because obviously there are some outstanding individuals who have never reproduced dogs like themselves. I am talking about any breed and any sort of competition. I am not asking what traits you want in your pup or talking about enviornment but what you need to see in a breeding to feel the pups have a great chance to be outstanding individuals and/or outstanding individuals who will produce the same in the right enviornment. I am looking for more specifics than ex., a linebreeding or titles parents.

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Re: Breeding Philosphy

Post by Rich Heaton » Fri Mar 26, 2010 8:37 pm

Hard to believe nobody has jumped on this grenade yet,,,,,, :D

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Re: Breeding Philosphy

Post by A/C Guy » Fri Mar 26, 2010 10:16 pm

I ask about two scenerios because obviously there are some outstanding individuals who have never reproduced dogs like themselves.
I have noticed that as well. I would rather have a puppy from the next litter of the same parents that produced the Champion Wonder Dog than one of his/ her puppies.

I look for complimentary traits. Hopefully, the good traits from the female will join with the good traits of the male and produce better offspring. I firmly believe that when it comes to hunting, the female has more influence than the male. That is what we have observed.
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Re: Breeding Philosphy

Post by Neil » Fri Mar 26, 2010 10:39 pm

I have Brittanys and I buy repeat breedings of National Dual Champion sires bred to DC dams that previously produced All-Age winners.

I have never had one nearly as good as the sire, but most were competitive at the highest levels and all made very good gun dogs.

Now you will pay up to $1,500 for a pup like that, but considering what I spend on one after I get it, it is more than worth it,

Neil

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Re: Breeding Philosphy

Post by Rich Heaton » Fri Mar 26, 2010 11:44 pm

D2shorthairs wrote:I am looking for more specifics than ex., a linebreeding or titles parents.
Neil wrote:I buy repeat breedings of National Dual Champion sires bred to DC dams that previously produced All-Age winners
So Neil,,,, sounds like you breed or buy paper,,,, not sure that is what he was asking? Aanndd,,,,,,, to me it seems like a repeat breeding never quite reproduces the dogs it did in the first breeding,,,,, one of those situations,,,,, "a day late and a dollar short".

I have always respected your opinions,,,, so why do ya go with a repeat breeding? To me I always think a female is only given one maybe two great offspring in a lifetime so when I miss that,,,, its just bad luck.

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Re: Breeding Philosphy

Post by zzweims » Sat Mar 27, 2010 6:40 am

Breed to your strengths and never waiver from that. And always, always think 2,3,4 generations down the line. Too many breeders, IMO, want a quick fix for their bitch's weaknesses and shop for a stud to 'repair' them in a single generation. If you solidify your strengths over 4 generations, you will not lose them if you then go to a stud that can provide something your line lacks.

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Re: Breeding Philosphy

Post by ezzy333 » Sat Mar 27, 2010 7:50 am

I think you can randomly pick two outstanding unrelated dogs and have a good chance of getting a great pup but if you want one that will also produce many winners then you need to pick bloodlines also. Neil's method should produce some quality puppies and to back that position he is using a proven breeding. I think there are other factors that enter in to the assumption Rich is stating. But the well bred dogs will pass those qualities down at a much higher percentage than just a product of two outstanding unrelated dogs. I don't think this thread can eliminate the line breeding or out crossing from the choice of philosophy since it is an integral part of what is looked for by many of us.

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Re: Breeding Philosphy

Post by Shadow » Sat Mar 27, 2010 9:25 am

well said Ezzy

I want to look at the 5 generations- like seeing the the ones that go along the same lines- pick a pup from a proven breeding with the intent to breed later down the line
then it's just a matter of reading the youngsters and bringing them along each their own way- hard to actually say you don't end up with a pretty good all arround dog- not saying anyone of those could become the best field trialer or gun dog- would depend on who and how it is brough along

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Re: Breeding Philosphy

Post by glk7243 » Sat Mar 27, 2010 9:26 am

Rich Heaton wrote: so why do ya go with a repeat breeding? To me I always think a female is only given one maybe two great offspring in a lifetime so when I miss that,,,, its just bad luck.
So, your philosophy would be to get a pup from a bitch that has never produced a good one yet? Would you also suggest when someone has a female that produced 2 great ones from her first litter, that she should not ever be bred again? :mrgreen:
C'mon Rich, Geeeeeeeesh................. even a lowly hunter/non trialer like myself knows better than that.
Since you have produced 2 Ames qualifiers, just tell the guy what the real secret is.
Besides if you don't, Doug will just get on here and claim that he is the brains behind your breeding success.
As nice as it is today, you are probably out training. I'm heading up myself. Hopefull my bootlickers can find a couple snipe that your big runners missed.
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Re: Breeding Philosphy

Post by dwilson » Sat Mar 27, 2010 9:57 am

Every dog has strengths and weaknesses in conformation, performance, and personality. If you take 2 superior dogs that compliment the others weaknesses(weaknesses can and should be minor) then you should have a good shot at producing offspring better than the parents overall. That is the goal.

If you stick within the same bloodline you can pretty much be assured consistancy. If it is an outcross then it will be more of a crapshoot.

Inbreeding sets traits and brings things to the surface. A breeder should only do this if they know what they are going for and are willing to make a really hard choice if things go bad.

Linebreeding reproduces set traits either good or bad. Most good breeders can handle this with little trouble.

Outcrosses are used to bring in traits that you want but will also bring in bad traits. Good breeders will do this and then either inbreed or line breed down from there to make the good traits consistant while breeding out the bad traits brought in. Amateur and backyard breeders will do this either due to lack of knowledge or because they are scared of producing pups with an extra leg or something. With most breeds of dogs this type of breeding will produce fine offspring that will likely have no issues but you are less likely to have an entire litter performing at the highest level.

When I have bought dogs I typically go for either a line bred dog or something that is a proven outcross. It has worked out pretty good over the years.

I wouldn't breed by paper but would consider buying by paper with a little research.

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Re: Breeding Philosphy

Post by Rich Heaton » Sat Mar 27, 2010 10:27 am

glk7243 wrote:So, your philosophy would be to get a pup from a bitch that has never produced a good one yet?
Good point,,,, have to get back to ya,,, Doug was the one that was going on about that at the Overland one night, it made sense after some beer.
ezzy333 wrote:But the well bred dogs will pass those qualities down at a much higher percentage than just a product of two outstanding unrelated dogs
Neil wrote:I have never had one nearly as good as the sire, but most were competitive at the highest levels and all made very good gun dogs.
I would hold this all to be true.

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Re: Breeding Philosphy

Post by Shadow » Sat Mar 27, 2010 1:12 pm

dwilson wrote:Every dog has strengths and weaknesses in conformation, performance, and personality.
I call bull- take a look at the DC Brittany's that many have in their pedigrees- there's a reason

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Re: Breeding Philosphy

Post by dudleysmith » Sat Mar 27, 2010 1:42 pm

Just buy numbers and cull that is a easy way to do it..

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Re: Breeding Philosphy

Post by glk7243 » Sat Mar 27, 2010 1:57 pm

Rich Heaton wrote: to me it seems like a repeat breeding never quite reproduces the dogs it did in the first breeding,,,,, one of those situations,,,,, "a day late and a dollar short".
So why is that? Is it because the dogs are older, or because they were sold to different people, or is it something entirely different?

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Re: Breeding Philosphy

Post by vzkennels » Sat Mar 27, 2010 2:19 pm

I have heard that about repeat breedings from many how the repeats never live up to the first.Maybe it's true maybe it isn't but from my experience I can't say that it is.I repeated a breeding 3 times the last time the female was 8 yrs old,she had the smallest litter of 5,2 previous I think 8 & 9.In my opinion the last litter was just as nice if not better then the first.I'm still kicking myself for letting the white & lvr female from the last litter get away from me.
One of Tonelli's Rising Son breedings was repeated the first produced Tonelli's Sky High I think he has place in every Nats he has run in though never won it.That breeding was repeated & at least 2 of the 2nd litter finished & maybe a 3rd has placed or finished.
We use to raise & show Dobes saw some pretty nice repeat breedings.
JMO from experience but sure can't knock Rich's thoughts & experience either.

Here is a pic of that White & Lvr female.Charlie Rose bought a solid lvr female from that litter,he said she was as natural bird dog he ever had on his place.
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Re: Breeding Philosphy

Post by dwilson » Sat Mar 27, 2010 6:48 pm

Shadow wrote:
dwilson wrote:Every dog has strengths and weaknesses in conformation, performance, and personality.
I call bull- take a look at the DC Brittany's that many have in their pedigrees- there's a reason
You call bull on what? No dog, let me repeat that, no dog is perfect. Every single dog has a weakness somewhere in it. And for that matter you never WANT to produce the perfect dogs and I can tell you why. Once you reach perfection you only have 1 direction to go and that is down.

And for that matter you need to look at more than just the few top notch dogs in a pedigree. If you want to produce uniform dogs it is better to breed from a good dogs from an excellent line than to breed from an excellent dog from a good-mediocre line.

The reason that those dogs are showing up in those pedigrees could be one of two things. Either people are breeding by paper or they are proven producers. If it is a few dogs showing up multiple times I would suspect they are proven producers. If its just a hodge podge of titled dogs I would suspect they are breeding by paper. If it is a line of dogs producing those titles then it is an exceptional family that is being breed in an established and proven way.

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Re: Breeding Philosphy

Post by Rich Heaton » Sat Mar 27, 2010 7:26 pm

zzweims wrote:Too many breeders, IMO, want a quick fix for their bitch's weaknesses and shop for a stud to 'repair' them in a single generation
Using this logic,,, lets say you have a bitch that has a 9 o'clock tail,, do ya shop for a stud with a 10 o'clock tail, then the next breeding an 11 o'clock tail and so on,,,or do ya find a stud that pulls his tail over his back and hope they even each other out at 12o'clock in one single breeding?

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Re: Breeding Philosphy

Post by DGFavor » Sat Mar 27, 2010 8:22 pm

Using this logic,,, lets say you have a bitch that has a 9 o'clock tail,, do ya shop for a stud with a 10 o'clock tail, then the next breeding an 11 o'clock tail and so on,,,or do ya find a stud that pulls his tail over his back and hope they even each other out at 12o'clock in one single breeding?
Personally if I was a tail guy looking to alter my lines tailset like you describe, it makes sense to me for the most immediate results to breed to a dog a time zone or two to the east or west of you depending on what you are trying to accomplish...so if you have your 9 o'clock dog in Idaho, I'd breed to a 6 o'clock dog in New York or a 1am dog in Hawaii.

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Re: Breeding Philosphy

Post by ezzy333 » Sat Mar 27, 2010 8:54 pm

Explain that a little more clearly or you will have Rich confused again. :roll: 8) 8)

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Re: Breeding Philosphy

Post by glk7243 » Sat Mar 27, 2010 8:57 pm

That's why they cut the tails off, so you can't see how bad they are.
Here is one with a 10 o'clock mountain time tail. Taken today, at least it was on wild birds, does that get any brownie points.
Image

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Re: Breeding Philosphy

Post by ezzy333 » Sat Mar 27, 2010 9:01 pm

glk7243 wrote:That's why they cut the tails off, so you can't see how bad they are.
Here is one with a 10 o'clock mountain time tail. Taken today, at least it was on wild birds, does that get any brownie points.
Image

I think if I figured it right that dog would have a 12 o'clock tail if she was in New York. Am I right Doug?

If Rich get confused he will end up getting a dog with a long tail so you won't know where it is.

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Re: Breeding Philosphy

Post by Neil » Sat Mar 27, 2010 11:53 pm

Rich Heaton wrote:, so why do ya go with a repeat breeding? To me I always think a female is only given one maybe two great offspring in a lifetime so when I miss that,,,, its just bad luck.
I think the simple answer is I am not looking for one GREAT dog, but the few dogs I do buy to be GOOD!

I recognize my limitations, know it is highly unlikely that I will ever win the National Championship, but having dogs that can win some and still make good hunting dogs is important. Now this system has produced a littermate brother to a National Champion, so the potential in the dog was there (in this case the repeat breeding produced more winners than the first).

I have never bought a pup that I have not seen the sire perform a number of times, and in most cases the dam too, so I am not sure I am buying paper.

I think the Company, Miller/Lester/House have proven if you want a GREAT dog, you line breed the best to the best, raise 100+ puppies a year, give them all a chance to a year old, keep only the top 2 or 3 to Derby, and work your tail off, spending a lot of time, money, and energy. Of those, I only have the time, so I will be reasonably content with GOOD dogs.

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Re: Breeding Philosphy

Post by Rich Heaton » Sat Mar 27, 2010 11:53 pm

Haha,,,,, real funny guys. What I'm saying is,,, when ya set out with a 4-5 generations breeding program,,,, how's is that possible? Ya never know when your just going to have to "cut bait" and start over. No shame in that, in fact alot of respect goes out to ya. Every breeding combo doesn't work and that's life,,,, and with my luck and being a backyard breeder,,, it might have worked but I just chose the one that isn't the best example of what the litter produced,,,I can't keep everydog in the litter for comparison,,, so I end up with a "common" by happenstance,,,,, so do I keep with my 5 year plan and breed anyways,,,, or do I start rethinking my so "called program".

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Re: Breeding Philosphy

Post by Rich Heaton » Sat Mar 27, 2010 11:58 pm

Neil wrote:I think the Company, Miller/Lester/House have proven if you want a GREAT dog, you line breed the best to the best, raise 100+ puppies a year, give them all a chance to a year old, keep only the top 2 or 3 to Derby, and work your tail off, spending a lot of time, money, and energy
And folks,,,, in a nutshell,,,,, that's the way its done. Alot of respect to ya Mr. Mace

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Re: Breeding Philosphy

Post by BigShooter » Sun Mar 28, 2010 1:02 am

Rich Heaton wrote:
Neil wrote:I think the Company, Miller/Lester/House have proven if you want a GREAT dog, you line breed the best to the best, raise 100+ puppies a year, give them all a chance to a year old, keep only the top 2 or 3 to Derby, and work your tail off, spending a lot of time, money, and energy
And folks,,,, in a nutshell,,,,, that's the way its done. Alot of respect to ya Mr. Mace
Or you can do like Wagonmaster did very intentionally: talk with field trial folks you know personally about the current dogs, with a seasoned eye watch the stud & dam run, know the dogs behind those dogs, do a single breeding, take your pick of the litter, turn the pup over to the best trainer you know at four months, move the dog west to a second trainer recommended by the first, pour a ton of money down the field trial training hole and voila - a 2X NC with 19 hour placements. The pup exceeded the sire. Five of the seven littermates were followed. All five were field trial quality with only one fully trialed. Luck, skill or deep pockets? Personally I think Wagonmaster knows how to pick 'em but it was still a mixture of all three.

People always look at success or successful programs because that's all they can see but my personal opinion is that lots of non-trialed and rarely run dogs (for financial reasons) could've been National Champs but we can't talk about how these breedings were put together because the litter was unproven.
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Re: Breeding Philosphy

Post by dwilson » Sun Mar 28, 2010 7:18 am

Rich Heaton wrote:
Neil wrote:I think the Company, Miller/Lester/House have proven if you want a GREAT dog, you line breed the best to the best, raise 100+ puppies a year, give them all a chance to a year old, keep only the top 2 or 3 to Derby, and work your tail off, spending a lot of time, money, and energy
And folks,,,, in a nutshell,,,,, that's the way its done. Alot of respect to ya Mr. Mace
Ideally, yes. But, no normal people and very few professional level people have the time, means, or space to do this. In a perfect world this is the perfect breeding program.

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Re: Breeding Philosphy

Post by Shadow » Sun Mar 28, 2010 8:31 am

ok- I get it- you're talking about the perfect dog

well- I've got one- perfect to me that is- most likely you've never been satisfied
many people will never be satisfied-

um- btw- what kind of dog do you have

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Re: Breeding Philosphy

Post by zzweims » Sun Mar 28, 2010 10:40 am

Rich Heaton wrote:
zzweims wrote:Too many breeders, IMO, want a quick fix for their bitch's weaknesses and shop for a stud to 'repair' them in a single generation
Using this logic,,, lets say you have a bitch that has a 9 o'clock tail,, do ya shop for a stud with a 10 o'clock tail, then the next breeding an 11 o'clock tail and so on,,,or do ya find a stud that pulls his tail over his back and hope they even each other out at 12o'clock in one single breeding?
If you can find a stud that throws 12:00 tails, AND shares your bitches greatest strengths, then by all means, don't wait. 'Fix' it in a single breeding. This is easy if you are breeding pointers, gsps, etc. But if you are breeding a less common, relatively mediocre breed, then you don't sacrifice the strength of your line for a single attribute. I breed competetive field weims. The greatest strengths of the puppies I produce are style, speed, and drive. But their range is all over the map. As a breeder, I am working towards more consistancy in range without sacrificing style, speed, and drive. This takes time.

Yet as a stud dog owner, I am often suprised when bitch owners show interest in my boys for no other reason than their titles. The more educated ones will come to me for style, speed, and/or drive--but some of them also expect to get horizon busters with a show dog conformation. I tell them, that unless their bitch comes from a LONG LINE of big running show dogs, the odds are against them.

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Re: Breeding Philosphy

Post by JKP » Sun Mar 28, 2010 10:59 am

I tend to think about where my pups will be going. I don't breed a lot...only when I feel I have a bitch that is really a great "package". But, I know that 90% of the folks that ask about pups are pretty "green"...maybe they have had a dog or two but the dog will be a family pet more of the time. So, I look for the performance I want but then spend a lot of time on temperament (livability factor), genetic soundness (to limit the vet bills), and seek early maturing dogs that do a lot naturally (many owners don't have the time and skills). I would rather have a litter that performs at a high level across the board than a litter with 1 star and the rest a mixed bag. I breed lines, not individual stars. I don't swallow the "improving the breed" baloney, because I think there were many stars of yesteryear (known and unknown) that are the equal of dogs today. I also realize that great dogs became great because they got to the right hands...in almost all cases.

I also study people...there is always a story behind every dog...every dog has or has had issues. I work with other breeders that I feel confident can share that openly. You have to pick your poison when breeding dogs...I just like to know which one I'm picking if possible.

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Re: Breeding Philosphy

Post by D2shorthairs » Mon Mar 29, 2010 7:21 am

It's hard to dis-agree with Neil but few have the luxury. I have heard the same thing that Rich is talking about ,repeat breeding, from some very experienced breeders but I can't help thinking that their bar is VERY high and the repeat breeding is still a safe way to get very good dogs. I've had good luck with that.

I don't know why you wouldn't shoot for great or perfect figuring falling short could still produce a pretty good dog.

The traits of the sire and dam are very important but if you don't have a bunch of other dogs in the pedigree with the same traits it is still a bit of a crap shoot on the pups. I don't like outcrosses for their lack of consistency but it does seem there are some exceptional dogs coming from them. Easier if you use Neil's method on those. Does it seem to anyone that outcrossing two really good dogs each of which are from really good line breedings works. The few I have done produced pups where I could definately see a male just like the sire and a female just like the dam and then a mix in the rest. If you really like the male or female seems like a good thing. Your opinions?

I like a line breeding with parents and grand-parents, at least, having the qualities I'm looking to breed.

Also anyone have an opinion about having all-age dogs in a breeding. Why I ask is even though I have yet to try and breed for an All-Age pup, I can see that having all-age dogs who are that way because of intelligence and extreme desire really elevate a breeding program even if they are not producing all-age pups. That intelligence and desire in a pup really goes a long way IMO.

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Re: Breeding Philosphy

Post by DGFavor » Mon Mar 29, 2010 9:32 am

I also realize that great dogs became great because they got to the right hands...in almost all cases.
Personally, I think this contributes alot to why repeat breedings tend not to be successful. The first breeding, for whatever reason, got pups to the right folks that brought 'em along right and they achieved notoriety and success with 'em. The next breeding is the bandwagon breeding where out of the woodwork come the folks that think all they'll need is a dog out of this breeding to be successful but in the end they really don't have the means, the know how, etc. to bring the dogs along...so the bandwagon breeding ends up being the ones that flag, lay down, won't hunt, etc. mainly because of where they ended up. Just a .02 theory I came up with with Rich at the Overland bar one time - made great sense then and still might make a little sense now. :wink:

Nice shot Gary! I'm stuck in the airport in New York, eastern time, and looks fine to me:
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Re: Breeding Philosphy

Post by JKP » Mon Mar 29, 2010 9:53 am

Also anyone have an opinion about having all-age dogs in a breeding. Why I ask is even though I have yet to try and breed for an All-Age pup, I can see that having all-age dogs who are that way because of intelligence and extreme desire really elevate a breeding program even if they are not producing all-age pups. That intelligence and desire in a pup really goes a long way IMO.
I am not a trialer but interested to know what a true AA dog brings beyond the reach/drive. Are there other qualities in these exceptional dogs that you don't see in a good running gun dog...style, nose, manners, etc or the intelligence you speak of? And, are AA dogs taught to run? or do they naturally have that amount of reach? Is there a trade off in any way...independence, biddability if this is overemphasized..can you have too much of a good thing?

PLEASE!!! just looking for experienced comment...not looking for knockdown/dragout on the subject.

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Re: Breeding Philosphy

Post by D2shorthairs » Mon Mar 29, 2010 9:55 am

Good point Doug. I could see that. I also wonder how many late maturing dogs that could have been great are passed on by folks/trainers that don't have the patience or luxury of waiting on them. I have a couple dogs that are out of a NGSPA All Age National Champ that have been great hunting dogs but now pushing 3 years old are starting to range out and act more and more each day like field trial dogs.

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Re: Breeding Philosphy

Post by D2shorthairs » Mon Mar 29, 2010 10:09 am

JKP wrote:
Also anyone have an opinion about having all-age dogs in a breeding. Why I ask is even though I have yet to try and breed for an All-Age pup, I can see that having all-age dogs who are that way because of intelligence and extreme desire really elevate a breeding program even if they are not producing all-age pups. That intelligence and desire in a pup really goes a long way IMO.
I am not a trialer but interested to know what a true AA dog brings beyond the reach/drive. Are there other qualities in these exceptional dogs that you don't see in a good running gun dog...style, nose, manners, etc or the intelligence you speak of? And, are AA dogs taught to run? or do they naturally have that amount of reach? Is there a trade off in any way...independence, biddability if this is overemphasized..can you have too much of a good thing?

PLEASE!!! just looking for experienced comment...not looking for knockdown/dragout on the subject.

JKP I asked the question realizing that all All-Age dogs cannot be considered equal and from limited experience with them I can see that some run that way for different reasons one of which could be self-hunting which I personally don't want. But one of them I have dogs from I got to see as a young dog and later and it was evident early on that he just had HUGE desire to find birds. I'm not talking about alot of desire I'm talking about HUGE, I'm going hunt as long and as far as I have to to find birds, desire. I can see that extra desire in the pups I have even if they are not running All-Age. Maybe they are not running that range because of me and the way we have hunted but I can see the step up in desire and intelligence in these dogs from ones that I and others thought were very good dogs. That is why I am curious what others think.
David

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Re: Breeding Philosphy

Post by dan v » Mon Mar 29, 2010 6:04 pm

JKP wrote:
Also anyone have an opinion about having all-age dogs in a breeding. Why I ask is even though I have yet to try and breed for an All-Age pup, I can see that having all-age dogs who are that way because of intelligence and extreme desire really elevate a breeding program even if they are not producing all-age pups. That intelligence and desire in a pup really goes a long way IMO.
I am not a trialer but interested to know what a true AA dog brings beyond the reach/drive. Are there other qualities in these exceptional dogs that you don't see in a good running gun dog...style, nose, manners, etc or the intelligence you speak of? And, are AA dogs taught to run? or do they naturally have that amount of reach? Is there a trade off in any way...independence, biddability if this is overemphasized..can you have too much of a good thing?

PLEASE!!! just looking for experienced comment...not looking for knockdown/dragout on the subject.

The AA dogs have every trait that the hunter wants....and those traits are found in the extreme in the good AA dog. Extreme trainability, extreme nose, extreme endurance. The good AA dogs aren't those that run off. The good AA dog wants to seek game in an extreme manner, but he wants to do it as a team.

Favor, Heaton and others will add tho this...at least I hope. :lol:
Dan

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Re: Breeding Philosphy

Post by glk7243 » Mon Mar 29, 2010 6:20 pm

DGFavor wrote:
Nice shot Gary! I'm stuck in the airport in New York, eastern time, and looks fine to me:
Yuk, I'm not much better. I'm stuck in a hotel in Poky.
Rather be home chasing run offs.

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Re: Breeding Philosphy

Post by JKP » Mon Mar 29, 2010 6:31 pm

Sounds to me like in any "class" of dogs there are those with the whole package and others that present problems. My "style" of hunting wouldn't require a dog with that kind of extreme range. I agree completely with the poster that said that many dogs never get to reach their potential because of a forced training/obedience schedule or just the need to kill birds rather than see dog work. I appreciate the marathoners...the stars but there are so many outstanding 200 yd gun dogs (my comfort level) that its just a level that I (and many others) don't see myself investing in. There are so few hunter/family/pet combination dogs out there that will ever get the chance to mature to that level. Great to watch....glad those dogs are there...and admire the folks that can put in that kind of time and investment...and sure is nice to be able to "spice" a pedigree when you need it.

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Re: Breeding Philosphy

Post by D2shorthairs » Tue Mar 30, 2010 6:59 am

JKP I wasn't asking if breeders/hunters/trialers wanted to own an all-age dog I asked about using one, a good one as Windancer has described, in a breeding program. Up to recently I have just bred for foot hunting/trial dogs myself but what I wanted was everything a field trialer wants except the range and I wanted the dogs to come by it naturally. Take the young dog hunting and he will do it all on his own naturally with experience with training used only to refine what he already has in him. I had the impression in the beginning that big running dogs were bad based on what quite a few hunters had always told me until I saw myself what the right dog can do in a breeding program.

If I can ramble let me give you an example. I bought a 1 year old male gsp out of two very good NGSPA All-Age National Champs. The breeding didn't produce the big running dogs that trailers had hoped and I knew mine wasn't a big runner when I bought him. I turned this pup out on our 4000 acres the day after I got him with no e-collar. He didn't know me from Adam. It could have been one of the dumbest things I had ever done but I had a feeling. The dog hunted smart, handled, went where birds should be then he came to a spot where three big fields came together. He was 250 yards ahead of me and he just stopped and stared at me. I wasn't sure at first what he was doing but I decided to turn in the direction of the field I wanted him to go in. That is what he was looking for, he went under that gate and continued to hunt. This dog is exceptionally smart and easy to train. I show him something like whoa and he gets it quick and even wags his tail as soon as I give him a command cause he knows he's got it. I could go on about him but that intelligence and extreme desire IMO is a huge plus for a hunter, trialer or whatever you do. He still doesn't run all-age. That is why I posed the question to other breeders to see if they have similiar thoughts regarding the all-age dog in a breeding program.

David

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Re: Breeding Philosphy

Post by JKP » Tue Mar 30, 2010 9:29 am

JKP I wasn't asking if breeders/hunters/trialers wanted to own an all-age dog I asked about using one, a good one as Windancer has described, in a breeding program. Up to recently I have just bred for foot hunting/trial dogs myself but what I wanted was everything a field trialer wants except the range and I wanted the dogs to come by it naturally. Take the young dog hunting and he will do it all on his own naturally with experience with training used only to refine what he already has in him. I had the impression in the beginning that big running dogs were bad based on what quite a few hunters had always told me until I saw myself what the right dog can do in a breeding program.

If I can ramble let me give you an example. I bought a 1 year old male gsp out of two very good NGSPA All-Age National Champs. The breeding didn't produce the big running dogs that trailers had hoped and I knew mine wasn't a big runner when I bought him. I turned this pup out on our 4000 acres the day after I got him with no e-collar. He didn't know me from Adam. It could have been one of the dumbest things I had ever done but I had a feeling. The dog hunted smart, handled, went where birds should be then he came to a spot where three big fields came together. He was 250 yards ahead of me and he just stopped and stared at me. I wasn't sure at first what he was doing but I decided to turn in the direction of the field I wanted him to go in. That is what he was looking for, he went under that gate and continued to hunt. This dog is exceptionally smart and easy to train. I show him something like whoa and he gets it quick and even wags his tail as soon as I give him a command cause he knows he's got it. I could go on about him but that intelligence and extreme desire IMO is a huge plus for a hunter, trialer or whatever you do. He still doesn't run all-age. That is why I posed the question to other breeders to see if they have similiar thoughts regarding the all-age dog in a breeding program.

David
I think we are on the same page...surprising how really good dogs no matter what the format share the same qualities. Desire, nose, intelligence, trainability and manners on birds, natural desire to retrieve, adaptable to many situations, etc...the style issue is a personal one but I think we all like to see some "pop" and attitude. A big +1...as far as wanting to see young dogs do a lot naturally...instead of being trained excessively...I have always been a little wary of the Vdog concept (and I have DD) that seems to rely too heavily on repetitive training for a lot that should just be more natural.

What you describe is what I would want in a dog...a dog that's noticing where I am and where I am headed...and is to the front naturally. A dog that just keeps going expecting me to follow it would not be my style. I think like many, I am suspicious of AA dogs...dogs that are just willing to keep going...making it my job to keep track of them. When I read that 10-20% of the dogs at Ames go lost (with that gallery and spotters!!), I think its fair to say that these dogs are different...probably far more independent than I am accustomed too. That is why I asked whether that is conditioned or not. Is that independence the "default" mode for such dogs...or are those dogs 2-300yd dogs that have been conditioned to know that "if you keep going, I'll come find you". I guess that was my question.

From my experience with the non-trial breeds, I see many dogs with the qualities described just without the run. I have seen a good number of young potential horseback dogs within the DD ranks...that don't develop that way because of the culture. Few are physically designed for that work anyway. For years I have hunted young dogs in ND...giving me the opportunity to just put away the whistle, break the gun and watch how far desire and some good game populations will take a young dog. A few dogs have surprised me...including a 70lb bitch that would happily hang out 3-500 yds ahead of me. Now that is not my comfort level (and rarely do sharpies hold while I walk the 3-500 yds!!!), but she made the team because of her desire and manners at point of contact (along with her water work, retrieving, etc).

So again....are the super big running dog genetically pre-programmed? in default mode? or are they just a normal dog that with conditioning accepts that it can reach as far as it wants to go? Wouldn't this dog have to be more independent? If a dog (like the one described) is checking where the handler is headed, can it be an AA dog? When the handler is out of sight, how long before the AA dog swings around to locate the handler? or does the handler follow the AA dog?? When you look in the kennel box, is there any signal that tells you that a pup may have this kind of potential?

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Re: Breeding Philosphy

Post by dwilson » Tue Mar 30, 2010 4:45 pm

Shadow wrote:ok- I get it- you're talking about the perfect dog

well- I've got one- perfect to me that is- most likely you've never been satisfied
many people will never be satisfied-

um- btw- what kind of dog do you have
If you are talking to me... I have a vizsla and a new shorthair pup. My dogs are perfect to me but are not perfect dogs since there is always things that could be better. I am satisfied because I am realistic about the fact that there is no such thing as perfection in any animal, which is the whole reason breeding programs exist.

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Re: Breeding Philosphy

Post by dan v » Tue Mar 30, 2010 6:10 pm

JKP wrote:
So again....are the super big running dog genetically pre-programmed? in default mode? or are they just a normal dog that with conditioning accepts that it can reach as far as it wants to go? Wouldn't this dog have to be more independent? If a dog (like the one described) is checking where the handler is headed, can it be an AA dog? When the handler is out of sight, how long before the AA dog swings around to locate the handler? or does the handler follow the AA dog?? When you look in the kennel box, is there any signal that tells you that a pup may have this kind of potential?
The "true" AA dog is genetically programed to be what he is. People often talk about how "you can always reel them in, but you can't push them out". And that's true....BUT, people also need to realize that dog have a of independence at which they are comfortable with...and that for the most part equals range. Can you reel the big goer in? Sure. But that dog will always be testing the connection in an effort to get to his comfort range.

Do AA dogs get lost? Heck yes.
Do gun dogs get lost? Heck yes.

Does the handler follow an AA dog? Why should the handler follow if the AA dog is the epitome of biddablity? When I hunt, doesn't matter the type of dog AA or GD, I set the general direction...the dog needs to come with me.

The people in the know will tell you...All-Age dogs are born, not made.
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Re: Breeding Philosphy

Post by dan v » Tue Mar 30, 2010 6:14 pm

D2shorthairs wrote:JKP I wasn't asking if breeders/hunters/trialers wanted to own an all-age dog I asked about using one, a good one as Windancer has described, in a breeding program. Up to recently I have just bred for foot hunting/trial dogs myself but what I wanted was everything a field trialer wants except the range and I wanted the dogs to come by it naturally.

If I can ramble let me give you an example. I bought a 1 year old male gsp out of two very good NGSPA All-Age National Champs. The breeding didn't produce the big running dogs that trailers had hoped and I knew mine wasn't a big runner when I bought him. I turned this pup out on our 4000 acres the day after I got him with no e-collar. He didn't know me from Adam. It could have been one of the dumbest things I had ever done but I had a feeling. The dog hunted smart, handled, went where birds should be then he came to a spot where three big fields came together. He was 250 yards ahead of me and he just stopped and stared at me. I wasn't sure at first what he was doing but I decided to turn in the direction of the field I wanted him to go in. That is what he was looking for, he went under that gate and continued to hunt. This dog is exceptionally smart and easy to train. I show him something like whoa and he gets it quick and even wags his tail as soon as I give him a command cause he knows he's got it. I could go on about him but that intelligence and extreme desire IMO is a huge plus for a hunter, trialer or whatever you do. He still doesn't run all-age. That is why I posed the question to other breeders to see if they have similiar thoughts regarding the all-age dog in a breeding program.

David
David,

Doesn't this post answer your own question?
Dan

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Re: Breeding Philosphy

Post by D2shorthairs » Tue Mar 30, 2010 8:18 pm


David,

Doesn't this post answer your own question?

Wyndancer concerning all-age dogs in a breeding program I feel pretty good that the right one can really enhance a breeding program. I was just curious if other breeders had the same thoughts and am still interested if breeders had some breeding setups they thought really worked like for example having a great dog being the father of the father and the grandfather of the mother with the dogs from them on being outstanding individuals.

David

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Re: Breeding Philosphy

Post by bigoak » Tue Mar 30, 2010 8:56 pm

It also helps if there is a pointer up close in the pedigree!

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Re: Breeding Philosphy

Post by BigShooter » Tue Mar 30, 2010 9:41 pm

bigoak wrote:It also helps if there is a pointer up close in the pedigree!
:D :D :D :wink:
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Re: Breeding Philosphy

Post by JKP » Wed Mar 31, 2010 10:04 am

Wyndancer,
Thanks for the response....I also agree that dogs are pre-programmed and that they have a default mode which they will gravitate to.
My limited experience with AA dogs has not been as you indicate...always seemed to me that it was up to the handler to find the dog but I could well understand that the truly great extreme "athlete" would have to handle and show some connection to the handler.

Not my kind of dog but its a good thing that those genes are out there.

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