Now that there's a FC/AFC Black Shorthair...

Post by **Ayres** » Mon Apr 05, 2010 12:05 pm

Congrats!

I can't help but wonder what all the black GSP detractors are going to say now that there is a solid black GSP that has earned a FC/AFC that can easily be cited. What I remember hearing before was something to the tune of "Show us a black GSP that has earned a FC and that will go a long way toward getting the votes necessary to add black to the American breed standard." But, I digress..

Seriously, that's an amazing accomplishment. Congratulations again!

Dave Quindt · Post by **Dave Quindt** » Mon Apr 05, 2010 1:12 pm

First of all, congrats to Ken and the Hazels; finishing a dog is an accomplishment regardless of color.

Ayres wrote:I can't help but wonder what all the black GSP detractors are going to say now that there is a solid black GSP that has earned a FC/AFC that can easily be cited. What I remember hearing before was something to the tune of "Show us a black GSP that has earned a FC and that will go a long way toward getting the votes necessary to add black to the American breed standard."

Hmm, I've been in the breed over a decade and have never once heard this argument. Never once.

I have voted "no" on the black question in the past and will continue to vote no. The reason is simple; no one has explained how opening black gsps up to the show breeders improves the breed. To me, allowing black GSPs into the show ring only opens the door to making the breed worse, not better. The fact that the conformation standard does not accept black GSPs to me protects that subset of the breed from the damage that "conformation showing for sport and hobby" inflicts on a breed.

In the spirit of compromise, I do offer an alternative. I will support allowing black-factored dogs into the show ring, in exchange for banning liver-factored dogs from the show ring. Sounds perfectly reasonable to me!

Once again, congrats to Ken and the Hazels.

FWIW,
Dave

Post by **Ayres** » Mon Apr 05, 2010 3:31 pm

Dave Quindt wrote:Hmm, I've been in the breed over a decade and have never once heard this argument. Never once.

Well Dave, apparently you haven't read much on the black debate to have failed to hear that argument. It occurs over and over and over. Here's a prime example:

Wagonmaster wrote:A change in the standard requires 2/3rds of the membership, not just 2/3rds of those voting. You are going to need to motivate some people to get those kinds of numbers. So let me suggest what I have suggested before. There is nothing stopping anyone from finishing a black or black and white as a Field Champion or Amateur Field Champion. But to my knowledge it has never been done. There have been a couple of dogs with points on them, but the blacks are basically such sorry excuses for hunting dogs that they just can't compete.

Bring them out to the trials and start to finish some. Show us they are real dogs. Then you will get trialer votes. Right now, we don't really care to see the breed backstep thirty or forty years just for the sake of a coat color.

Emphasis added.

Here's a link to the post: http://www.gundogforum.com/forum/viewto ... 54#p110854

This is a quote lifted directly from this forum! It was posted by John Lunseth on May 07, 2008, seconded by Ted Meyer and "motion carried" by Blake Biggs within that thread. Not that I ever expected to hear anything but a bunch of backpedaling once the FC/AFC was completed on a black shorthair anyway...

Post by **Ayres** » Mon Apr 05, 2010 3:40 pm

This post is a little out of order, but I just split out this topic from the congratulatory thread here: http://www.gundogforum.com/forum/viewto ... 69&t=23214

Here's the question: Now that there's a FC/AFC Black Shorthair, does that do anything to change the mind of the field trialers against black in the GSPCA breed standard, considering the argument that was previously used and quoted above?

original mngsp · Post by **original mngsp** » Mon Apr 05, 2010 4:00 pm

yes by all means a big congrats to all involved in having a FC/AFC and MH of any breed regardless of color. Have to have a darn good dog to begin with, lots and lots of hard work, time, effort and some good luck also to accomplish those things.

I have seen in HT, NAVHDA , and hunted with a fair amount of black GSPs. Most of what I have witnessed is that the color really doesnt mean much as far as field ability. I still vote "no" each year on the issue and encourage owners that I know with black dogs to do the same.

Why? This will ruffle some feathers I'm sure. But here goes, I see way more instances of liver dogs being sluggish, bad moving in the field, lacking prey driver, and just in general being a poor representative of a dog that was meant to have a job to do in the field. Common characteristic of these "slugs", guess what, generations and generations of ancestors done for the conformation ring. Yes these dogs have a pedigree loaded with show champions, but these dogs cant hunt their way out of a paper bag.

I personally have never seen a black GSP that I would say lacked what it took to be a hunting dog. Did all these dogs have what it take to be a FC/AFC and MH, heck no. Lots of liver GSPs dont either.

What I fear and why I encourage people with black GSPs to vote no is this....if it is approved guess what will become the new rage in the ring? Bingo, the black GSP!!! In a few generations the black dogs will be equally polluted with show champion pedigrees. Right now the black GSP can compete, and obviously succeed in any AKC field event and make fine hunting dogs. Why would the owners of these black GSPs care to wreck what they have.

Post by **Ayres** » Mon Apr 05, 2010 4:08 pm

Of course, a counter-argument to that is owners of black GSPs should be concerned with conformation just as much as owners of liver GSPs. Fads come and go, but a no-vote on the issue of black in the American breed standard means that owners of black GSPs will never be able to "prove" superior conformation by the addition of a CH or DC. See, that blade has two edges. There will always be people out there that disregard the field ability of the breed for the purpose of breeding a conformationally correct dog. But just because that's a fact, I don't agree that we should encourage those breeders of black GSPs to ignore the conformation aspect altogether. That just encourages a breed division into two distinct varieties: field and show. IMO, there should be just one variety, that being a dog that excels in both formats.

Ruffshooter · Post by **Ruffshooter** » Mon Apr 05, 2010 4:11 pm

The FCI allows Black and has for I don't know how long, Why is it not allowed here in the US? What is the big deal other than some of you don't like it? I do not know the DK color story. I don't like it either but don't care one way or the other. Mostly curious.

I know the FCI story for Brits.
Rick

original mngsp · Post by **original mngsp** » Mon Apr 05, 2010 4:29 pm

a counter-argument to that is owners of black GSPs should be concerned with conformation just as much as owners of liver GSPs

Steven,
They are concerned about conformation, the kind that counts. That being the ability of a well bred hunting dog to be able to hunt for long hours, many days of being in the field per year, and being able to do it for at least 10-12 years. Three big big parts of the make up of a hunting dog can never be measured by a wicket, or a certain angle of a bone. Heart, Nose, and Brains are what makes these dogs what they are, not anything that the conformation ring measures!!!!

The breeder of any sporting dog breed should look for these traits in their breeding program over anything the show ring can prove. Does that mean all of our breeds should end up being a "pointer", heck no!! If someone is breeding GSPs they have an obligation to breed dogs that are field dogs and the only requirement for looks is that the dog should be a representative of what a GSP appears to be.

original mngsp · Post by **original mngsp** » Mon Apr 05, 2010 4:52 pm

What blows me away is the breeders who breed white and lemon gsp's and swear there's no EP mixed in!!!!

Howie

Its that recessive gene that brings in that lemon, dont you know that

Ken Lynch · Post by **Ken Lynch** » Mon Apr 05, 2010 5:01 pm

I for one would kill to own the first DC Black GSP in America. What confuses me is when people like Chris Benskin think that the only reason the black GSP is such a good hunting dog is because the black GSP is not allowed in the show ring only in the USA. This is the same thinking that must lead one to think the USA black GSP is superior to all other black GSP’s in the world.

original mngsp · Post by **original mngsp** » Mon Apr 05, 2010 5:20 pm

Ken

I never said black GSPs are all "great" hunting dogs nor are they superior to all other black GSPs in the world.

I maybe should have prefaced my statement by saying that I have seen some very nice GSPs that do well in the field and the ring. I have had the chance to see your dogs on a couple of occasions and I have a friend here in Minnesota that has three CH, MH GSPs that are out of predominantly from show lineage. Her dogs are some of the best grouse dogs in the state and have the intangibles that I mentioned that allow them to succeed in doing what the breed was meant to do, that means be field dogs. She has also placed one of those dogs many times in broke dog stakes at trials.

I am just saying, that it seems awful strange that I have never witnessed a black GSP that I would consider as a worthless field dog. Just go watch any weekend AKC Junior Hunt Test and tell me if you can say the same thing about some of the liver dogs that are entered.

Meller · Post by **Meller** » Mon Apr 05, 2010 5:46 pm

I guess I'm a little offended about the statement about the liver colored GSP"s, I have three white and liver, a roan, a liver roan, and a solid liver and I hunt them hard during hunting season and so far I can"t tell color has anything to do with what is a good hard hunting dog; other than prefference!

DGFavor · Post by **DGFavor** » Mon Apr 05, 2010 5:49 pm

If'n it were me, I wouldn't make such a big deal about it and would steadily go about my business of doing it again...and again...and again. Build a history of success, prove your dogs not their color, and acceptance will follow.

snips · Post by **snips** » Mon Apr 05, 2010 6:09 pm

Wow, it seems like you people are blaming the show for the sorryness of breeders..Or blaming the colors for the sorryness of breeders....It is Show Breeders doing the GSP an injustice, not the black dogs or liver dogs..........Why not give blacks a chance to become a CH or DC.....

original mngsp · Post by **original mngsp** » Mon Apr 05, 2010 6:38 pm

It is Show Breeders doing the GSP an injustice, not the black dogs or liver dogs

Thank you Brenda, maybe your reputation will bring more backing to my argument, even though you are in favor of allowing black GSP.

Im just afraid these show breeders will start messing with the instincts and abilities of black GSPs just to have that black show Champion. I I mentioned in my reply to Ken, there are exceptions to my statement that "conformation success = field failure", think you might know of a dog or two that is the exception

Im a hunting/field dog guy! Anything that is going to produce a dog that takes a step backwards in what the breed was intended to do, is in my eyes a failure and an insult to the breed.

BigShooter · Post by **BigShooter** » Mon Apr 05, 2010 6:49 pm

If black was added as an acceptable color to the breed standard would interest & demand for black dogs increase, decrease or remain the same?

snips · Post by **snips** » Mon Apr 05, 2010 7:43 pm

I think it would probably remain the same. But it would give those the oppurtunity to do everything with that b/w GSP that people do with liver and l/w. I think there are people that like b/w and people that like solid liver. I have always liked liver and will probably always have it, I am not a fan of black so therefore do not see me owning it...Nothing to do with legality of it, just my preference.

vzkennels · Post by **vzkennels** » Mon Apr 05, 2010 7:46 pm

If it is so important to so many that black be accepted to the standard then why hasn't it passed ?? Blacks can already do everything thing else accept show.Keep putting it up for vote it will eventually pass.But how bout this DQ the LVR & WHTS & pass the Blacks.Even better when they allow GSPS to be registered as DKS then I'll vote FOR black.Not that I'm interested in DKS but some might just like some are interested in blacks.
JMO won't be popular but I'm not a popular guy.Go smoke that in your pipe Ayres.

Ken Lynch · Post by **Ken Lynch** » Mon Apr 05, 2010 7:58 pm

Chris,
I find it interesting that you tout the black GSP as the all good hunting/field dog and that you fight to keep it pure. However, you do not have one on your avatar. Does this mean you do not own one? You state “I never said black GSPs are all "great" hunting dogs nor are they superior to all other black GSPs in the world.” To me this statement equally applies to the liver GSP in the USA. Then you state “I am just saying, that it seems awful strange that I have never witnessed a black GSP that I would consider as a worthless field dog. Just go watch any weekend AKC Junior Hunt Test and tell me if you can say the same thing about some of the liver dogs that are entered.” Given the Black GSP numbers in the USA are low compared to the recognized GSP, I am not surprised that you do not see any bad ones. If you were on the outside would you try anything unless you were confident that it was compeditive?

SFK · Post by **SFK** » Mon Apr 05, 2010 8:02 pm

Congrats to the owners/handlers for finishin' their dog out! The beutiful thing about the field is that the dog is judged on their performance, not their color.

DGFavor wrote:If'n it were me, I wouldn't make such a big deal about it and would steadily go about my business of doing it again...and again...and again. Build a history of success, prove your dogs not their color, and acceptance will follow.

Wisdom right there. Is is also what I think Wagonmaster was trying to say. The first is out of the way, congrats! Now get a few more finished and the acceptance will follow as proving the dogs will open the closed eyes.

Well said Doug!

wems2371 · Post by **wems2371** » Mon Apr 05, 2010 8:15 pm

I have never (and maybe I've missed it) heard a black owner/breeder saying they need to protect their color from acceptance in the show ring and the perception of what it will result in. I understand if a person is just totally against the color, and a liver purist, why they would vote "no". I don't agree with that thinking and haven't heard anything to convince me otherwise yet, but thankfully we're all entitled to our opinions. But if you're okay with black being in the breed and competing in other venues, and know that there are good black GSPs out there, why the need to protect them (black breeders/owners) from themselves in regards to the show ring? Sounds a little too big brotherish for me.

DGFavor wrote:If'n it were me, I wouldn't make such a big deal about it and would steadily go about my business of doing it again...and again...and again. Build a history of success, prove your dogs not their color, and acceptance will follow.

Sounds like a formula for success to me too.

vzkennels · Post by **vzkennels** » Mon Apr 05, 2010 8:21 pm

Do I think because a black dog finished a FC that every one that FTrials is going to run out & buy one.No way but when the color does becomes acceptable & it will sooner or later & they start winning in the show ring yes I do believe popularity will increase.But will take awhile before they start winning on a regular basis & the people that own & show the predominately white dogs can attest to that.White & LVR has been in the standard for quite some time & still not accepted like the Lvr or LVR Roan dogs in the ring so maybe it all won't be as much fun as they seem to think.The yr the GSP won Westminster I could have became rich if I had pups colored like her & that's NOT GOOD for the breed.

A dog of any color that finishes a title should be applauded & the owners should be proud & have every right to be.If showing is your main venue then go with a dog color of the standard untill another is accepted.

vzkennels · Post by **vzkennels** » Mon Apr 05, 2010 8:25 pm

YEAH YEAH & I don't want their crap & telling me what I can breed & what I can't!!
Ayers you called me out & your supposed to be a moderator so lets have at it buddy & you can ban me if you like go for it !!

wems2371 · Post by **wems2371** » Mon Apr 05, 2010 8:27 pm

In my mind, that's a completely separate issue of reciprocity between registries...and has nothing to do with the topic at hand.

Ken Lynch · Post by **Ken Lynch** » Mon Apr 05, 2010 8:28 pm

Hi Art,
The field has never been the problem. The black GSP has always been allowed. The closed eyes are not just in the “show ring”. Yet it is also some of the field people who are “closed eyes” on allowing the black in the show ring. There are people out there that are dieing to get a chance to prove the worthiness of the black GSP in the show ring yet there are field people out there insisting that the black breed prove itself in the filed before they may condescend to allowing it to show in the ring even though they never ever go near that venue. This in one sense goes back to how people feel about the value of a Dual Champion within the breed.

vzkennels · Post by **vzkennels** » Mon Apr 05, 2010 8:30 pm

The Blacks came from the DKS just as all GSPS did so it is relavent in my eyes & I know the DKS are the Elite & worth twice as much & BS & MORE BS!!

snips · Post by **snips** » Mon Apr 05, 2010 8:33 pm

Ken Lynch wrote:Hi Art,
This in one sense goes back to how people feel about the value of a Dual Champion within the breed.

Field people or Show people???

hazdj · Post by **hazdj** » Mon Apr 05, 2010 9:01 pm

I am having a hard time understanding that if a GSP can prove itself in the field to this level, why does anyone feel that this dog should not be allowed to achieve another accomplishment.

I am not familiar with the show ring, BUT if the opportunity was there, I would like to have the abiltiy to show her.
Dennis

vzkennels · Post by **vzkennels** » Mon Apr 05, 2010 9:13 pm

It has been mentioned that the FCI accepts blacks but I believe they also accept Gelber brand so I think the next time black is on the ballot,gelber brand should be right along side of it heck lets just throw the color out completely & go from there.
Get My Point ANYONE??

BigShooter · Post by **BigShooter** » Mon Apr 05, 2010 9:15 pm

I believe it is very naive of anyone to think this is merely about color in the show ring only and that it isn't about the divergence of breed development between the U.S. & Germany, equity, economics & politics. I for one don't believe for one minute that the majority of non-backyard breeders don't have any desire to showcase their dogs in venues to increase the demand and value of their pups.

vzkennels · Post by **vzkennels** » Mon Apr 05, 2010 9:21 pm

Mark I have stated this many times I HAVE NOTHING AGAINST black but it is the people that would use this to sell pups for double the price just because they are black plus the DK people that already seem to think their dogs are worth twice as much as any GSP.
I will NEVER vote for it but it will eventually pass with out my vote.
Let the ones that want it so bad vote for it or join the GSPCA so they can vote for it & get it passed.
The GSPCA could use the members.

BigShooter · Post by **BigShooter** » Mon Apr 05, 2010 9:33 pm

gpblitz wrote: They don't want to deal with some of the crap breeders pulled over here.

Howie, I guess you missed the posts from foreign breeders & members of this site that addressed the crap continental breeders pulled in European Union Countries. One of the forum members from the British Isles basically laughed at our naive posts fostering the notion none of the breeders overseas ever pulled any crap.

vzkennels · Post by **vzkennels** » Mon Apr 05, 2010 9:37 pm

NO NO we all know the rest of the world are ALL Honest & only the Ameicans are liars & un trust worthy. :roll:

vzkennels · Post by **vzkennels** » Mon Apr 05, 2010 9:43 pm

Howie is Chip selling his pups for a grand I had a NFC sired litter sold them for $650.
You say the Rare Color thing happened couple yrs ago.
Go to the for sale topic below & look at the B & W L&W litter
Guess which ones are $200 more?

hazdj · Post by **hazdj** » Mon Apr 05, 2010 9:44 pm

Ted
Last time I checked this thread it was discussing a black GSP with three field titles, not a Gelber brand. So why are you getting off topic? Their is a diffence in the two..Point is AKC allows the black dogs to compete in all AKC events, except in the show ring.

As far as backyard breeders go, they will always be there. I am sure there are alot that sell liver, liver/white. Just because there are some irresponsible breeders out there, it is not a valid reason to disallow black shorhairs from obtaining a DC or a CH.

vzkennels · Post by **vzkennels** » Mon Apr 05, 2010 9:47 pm

Hasdj AKC doesn't approve the Standard GSPCA does so join & vote for it.The standard only applies to show dogs as far as competeting goes.
Gelber brand can do all the other venues aswell.
GSPS marked like Dobes can compete in everything but the show also.

I also applaud you on your dogs acomplisments,something to be very proud of in no way am I trying to belittle that.

hazdj · Post by **hazdj** » Mon Apr 05, 2010 9:55 pm

Sorry if I did not word things clear enough. I do belong to the GSPCA and do plan on voting AGAIN!!!! Thanks for your suggestion.

BigShooter · Post by **BigShooter** » Mon Apr 05, 2010 10:01 pm

gpblitz wrote: My Grandfather who was from Germany always said , never trust the British!!!!

The guy is Scottish. Can they be trusted?

vzkennels · Post by **vzkennels** » Mon Apr 05, 2010 10:09 pm

Hasdj my point is if enough GSPCA members want Black as standard they would have voted for it & would have passed.Evidently enough don't want it so get more people that feel like you do to join & vote for it.
It don't need my vote to pass & won't get it but in time it will pass.
Even if it does pass don't think every judge out there is for it,you will find more pregidous around the show ring then any Field Trial.
Good Luck!!

Ken Lynch · Post by **Ken Lynch** » Mon Apr 05, 2010 10:30 pm

Hi Brenda,
From my point of view I would have to say both. When out on the road competing I would find people in both camps (bench & field) that thought that I was doing the right thing. However, there were as many that also always were saying that well your dog cannot win group, best in show, or a national field trial and therefore implied that the dog was an inferior example of the species in their minds. This to me is the same mind set that stifles the acceptance of black within the show standard. I must admit that both camps welcomed me and when I won the former group would congratulate me and the latter group would treat the win as though a blind pig finds an acorn once in a while.

Ridge-Point · Post by **Ridge-Point** » Tue Apr 06, 2010 1:36 am

Why is it that people hate the show ring so much? Was it the show crowd that ruined the Red Setter? If so then why didn't the show crowd ruin the English Pointer? The Red Setter died because hunters did not support it. Those are the facts!

How do show bred GSP's ruin the breed when the vast majority of hunters do not buy dogs from show stock? If someone enjoys frolicking around in a show ring with their dog then why should anyone stop them? If someone enjoys breeding dogs at the highest level of show competition then why should anyone stop them?

Why care if some breeder markets his black puppies for 5 grand and people line up to buy them? Are those the type buyers you want to sell your dogs to? Every person has the right to sell their dogs for whatever the market and their conscience will bear. If you have nice dogs they generally sell themselves, as long as people know about them. If people don't know about your dogs then you need to market them better.

If someone has a dog with the ability to compete in show and field why stop them? There is no valid reason. Vote yes to Black!

original mngsp · Post by **original mngsp** » Tue Apr 06, 2010 5:10 am

If so then why didn't the show crowd ruin the English Pointer?

Have you seen the difference of a AKC Pointer and an FDSB Pointer? For the most part, again there are exceptions, the AKC pointer is a big bumbly plodder of a dog where the real pointer is a completely different animal that can do what it was bred to do.

ACooper · Post by **ACooper** » Tue Apr 06, 2010 6:33 am

Ridge-Point wrote:Why is it that people hate the show ring so much? Was it the show crowd that ruined the Red Setter? If so then why didn't the show crowd ruin the English Pointer? The Red Setter died because hunters did not support it. Those are the facts!

How do show bred GSP's ruin the breed when the vast majority of hunters do not buy dogs from show stock? If someone enjoys frolicking around in a show ring with their dog then why should anyone stop them? If someone enjoys breeding dogs at the highest level of show competition then why should anyone stop them?

Why care if some breeder markets his black puppies for 5 grand and people line up to buy them? Are those the type buyers you want to sell your dogs to? Every person has the right to sell their dogs for whatever the market and their conscience will bear. If you have nice dogs they generally sell themselves, as long as people know about them. If people don't know about your dogs then you need to market them better.

If someone has a dog with the ability to compete in show and field why stop them? There is no valid reason. Vote yes to Black!

Show breeders HAVE ruined the red setter, the AKC pointer, German Shepherd, and caused a huge separation between the dogs they breed and and actual functional working dogs in numerous other breeds.

adogslife · Post by **adogslife** » Tue Apr 06, 2010 8:15 am

The DK is a versatile breed that has proven it's versatility and conformation for generations.All these years and only 1 AKC black dog has these titles? Black DKs have proven themselves decades ago and are being bred regularly in the DK world.
If AKC blacks are missing something it is due to breeders not breeding for it. Blame human intervention.The GSP is bred for what Americans want,the versatility has waned and the testing standards in the US are single faceted,separating the GSP from the DK. (Black) DKs are hard charging,versatile dogs bred to a standard of excellence - that's why they are worth more,monitarily and as breeding stock. Quit it with the "elite" nonsense. DK breeders breed a proven, versatile,conformationaly correct dog,imagine - all in 1package!
When GSP breeders start to breed with a single purpose then and only then will the GSP(of any color) excel in the ring and field simultaneously.The separation between the breed will be (has been) it's downfall. Can it be peer pressure from the field trial world has oppressed the black GSP?

adogslife

Post by **Ayres** » Tue Apr 06, 2010 8:22 am

vzkennels wrote:If it is so important to so many that black be accepted to the standard then why hasn't it passed ?? Blacks can already do everything thing else accept show.Keep putting it up for vote it will eventually pass.But how bout this DQ the LVR & WHTS & pass the Blacks.Even better when they allow GSPS to be registered as DKS then I'll vote FOR black.Not that I'm interested in DKS but some might just like some are interested in blacks.
JMO won't be popular but I'm not a popular guy.Go smoke that in your pipe Ayres.

Ted, I'm not a smoker. I do find it interesting, though, that you hopped on the bandwagon of "get a FC on a black dog and that will prove something" when that argument was popular back in 2008, and yet you still don't support the conclusion of that argument even though there is now a solid black FC/AFC. When I tried to point out (back in '08) that argument was just a ruse for the real reason black wasn't getting votes, being the political differences and $$ involved when you look at DK breeders, whom some believed would have a "jump start" on making money with the fad, most of the people supporting the FC argument went silent. (Heck, if I recall correctly someone even suggested a 2 or 3 year phase-in period for black inclusion so that the liver breeders could have time to introduce black into their lines in order to be on equal economic footing with the current black breeders.) In my opinion, making the argument that DK breeders stand to profit more from the inclusion of black in the American breed standard is purely self-centered, politically and economically, and not looking at the history and betterment of the breed at all.

vzkennels wrote:YEAH YEAH & I don't want their crap & telling me what I can breed & what I can't!!
Ayers you called me out & your supposed to be a moderator so lets have at it buddy & you can ban me if you like go for it !!

I am a moderator, and I did create this topic for a flavorful discussion. However, I never "called you out" and I see no reason to "have at it". This topic was to see if any tunes had changed now that one of the arguments against black has been taken away. If you feel angry or embarrassed about your prior statements being cited in light of the recent accomplishment, I'm sorry but I never put those words in your mouth.

Further, I posted this topic knowing that it would get a lot of discussion and I'm pleased that it has been predominantly point and counter-point without anyone getting nasty. Therefore, I see no reason to ban anyone. Do you think you deserve to be banned? If so, please let me know the reasons in a PM and I'll discuss it with the other moderators.

And a big thank you to EVERYONE for getting through to the 4th page of a thread without the need of any real moderator intervention. This has always been a hot issue, I knew that when I posted it, and I'm very happy our membership has been able to talk and discuss opposing viewpoints. Many times "opposing viewpoints" end up clashing and tempers flare, people go off topic and the thread has to be locked. That hasn't happened here, and here's hoping it stays that way.

LBH · Post by **LBH** » Tue Apr 06, 2010 8:52 am

I agree with what was said earlier, the Black GSP being allowed in the Show Ring will only open more doors to make the breed worse. This may be going to far, but I wouldn't care if all Shorthairs got banned from the ring. The show ring doesn't do anything for ME.... but that's just me.

Congrats to the people ( and dog ) who made that FC AFC title happen. But on another note, I think there is going to have to be more than one black FC or FC AFC for people to really turn their heads and re-consider the debate?

vzkennels · Post by **vzkennels** » Tue Apr 06, 2010 8:56 am

Ayers I am embarrassed by nothing in fact my point has been proven over & over when they have enough votes from the members it will pass untill then status quoe.
Oh & check out the 4 sale they are worth more because they are BLACK "BS!"
Not the dogs it's the owners!!& the Elite group hollier then thou better then your GSP but when they sell to some one who is not willing to do the work to become DKS they become the lowly AKC GSP or maybe better known as American GSPS!
Enough Said!

BigShooter · Post by **BigShooter** » Tue Apr 06, 2010 9:11 am

Ayres wrote: and not looking at the history and betterment of the breed at all.

Steven, Would you please expand upon what you perceive as the betterment of the breed? Please specifically address how in your mind the color black is required to improve the breed in a different and better manner than an existing standard color.

Ayres wrote: However, I never "called you out" and I see no reason to "have at it".

I would submit this is inaccurate. When you needlessly named names at the beginning of your post the common man's perception was different than if you had not mentioned any names.

Ayres wrote:In my opinion, making the argument that DK breeders stand to profit more from the inclusion of black in the American breed standard is purely self-centered, politically and economically

In your opinion, do you claim the current owners and breeders of black dogs want recognition of black totally exclusive of any self-interest or economics, but purely for altruistic reasons.

Please comment on how in your opinion a future implementation date would be unequitable to all GSP breeders taken as a whole.

SFK · Post by **SFK** » Tue Apr 06, 2010 9:20 am

Ken Lynch wrote:Hi Art,
The field has never been the problem. The black GSP has always been allowed. The closed eyes are not just in the “show ring”. Yet it is also some of the field people who are “closed eyes” on allowing the black in the show ring. There are people out there that are dieing to get a chance to prove the worthiness of the black GSP in the show ring yet there are field people out there insisting that the black breed prove itself in the filed before they may condescend to allowing it to show in the ring even though they never ever go near that venue. This in one sense goes back to how people feel about the value of a Dual Champion within the breed.

Hey Ken!

Ya, I know that the black shorthairs have been allowed in the field and understand what you are saying about the closed eyes in the field and that was my point. I think if ya get a few more in the field that are ripping it up the field folks that are voting against the black disqualification will be more likley to vote to allow the color in the ring. Personnally I have no problem letting the black standard in the GSPCA standard as the AKC accpets it already.

I think it is funny that color becomes such an issue for the ring. I have been told many times that my dogs are excellent examples of shorthairs conformationally. Interestinglly enough the same people tell be they are the wrong color to be show champions though (too much white). And mine are in the accpected standard!! I have a feeling that once the black standard is accepted there still won't be many show champs out of it due to the color discrimination in the show ring for the breed. That is one of the reasons that I breed to/for the standard but do not dual my dogs. As a general statement, as far as shorthairs go, I think the show ring has gotten out of touch with the breed's purpose (of course there are always exceptions such as Ken L and Katie T who should be applauded).

vzkennels · Post by **vzkennels** » Tue Apr 06, 2010 9:26 am

Thanks Mark that's exactly how I felt when he used my name,but because he is a moderator it's ok.
I was admonished for using a persons name because I believed he was unethical & explained why just to have it all deleted.
I never said the lack of a Black FC was the only reason for it not passing,there are many in my eyes & the actual color not even on the charts.