NSTRA CH vs MH

[Dirtysteve]

My friend and I have been arguing over this and would like some opinions.
If you were looking at a dogs pedigree which one would you rather see a NSTRA CH or a MH and why?

[Dave Quindt]

For me, it would me the MH.

When it comes to breeding hunting dogs, especially those of us looking for performance-quality breedings, one of the most important traits is trainability and stability.

A MH titled dog is one that's fully steady, and has proven that he can retain his training. That's something a NSTRA CH title doesn't give you.

I have issues breeding unbroke/partially broke dogs. There are weaknesses in dogs that are often not identified unless the dog is broke.

Having said that, I'd rather not see pedigrees full of only MH titles; I'd like to see pedigrees full of FC titles AND MH titles.

FWIW,
Dave

[NDBDHunter]

Ditto

[ckfowler]

I want a closer handling dog that I know will retrieve so NSTRA CH shows pretty impressive skills for my needs. Not put off by other titles but they don't show me as much about what I want just by themselves.

My dog is not steady but the other weekend we spent almost 10 minutes looking for a poorly hit single quail that had buried itself under heavy brush covered by several inches of snow. She'll keep looking when I tell her to and every bird is precious. Nothing guarentees that but MH and FC just aren't the indicators I'm looking for in that area.

[12 Volt Man]

Everybody has a different defenition of what is broke and what is not broke. Some say a broke dog is one that will point till you flush, some say it is one that is steady to wing, and shot. Some say it needs to be wing, shot and fall. Nobody really includes the retrieve. I like a dog that will retrieve to hand. This is one of the reasons I like NSTRA.

I don't know much about the MH. SH etc... titles because the English Pointers that are worth anything are not AKC registered anyway. I do know enough that if you have a MH dog, it is a "bleep" nice dog. What I don't know is, which is harder to obtain? A NSTRA Champion or a MH?

I know that it takes a lot of time, money, and training to have a dog that will win enough to be a NSTRA champion.

Snips is involved with both NSTRA and AKC tests. I bet she can answer this question.

[Dirtysteve]

12 volt
Excellent question...which is harder to obtain?

[12 Volt Man]

Here is a quote from the AKC website it is from their master hunter section.

A Master hunting dog must positively demonstrate its steadiness to wing and shot. The handler shall not command or signal the dog to retrieve until positive steadiness has been demonstrated. The dog must retrieve promptly, tenderly and absolutely to hand.

I did not know about the retrieve part.

Looking through the requirements, I would venture to say that NSTRA champion is harder to obtain than a Master hunter. There is much more left to chance and competition. I won't take anything away from a dog that is a Master Hunter all of those attributes are highly desireable.

[dhondtm]

MH IMO

[Duane M]

Though not a competitor in either venue I have watched both and would have to go with the NSTRA dog.

[ezzy333]

Both are good but I think that the MH title showcases the training first and themn the ability and the NSTA is just the opposite. Both are a lot of work and demonstrate a lot of what we want in a birddog.

Ezzy

[kninebirddog]

Why not both...
NSTRA has it good points and not so good But you know what Every venue out there has it good and not so good points? MH has a itty bitty bird area and all the dog has to do is be steady to wing shot and fall
NSTRA the dog has to be continuous on all the bird work
Both have to work birds
NSTRA sure a sloppy dog can eventually get some where I have hunted behind a few MH dogs can't say i was impressed there either. Held still and flagged
BUT the person did go through the time and effort to show that their dogs are capable of doing something..wehter it be hunt titles NSTRA Fc amer. Field CH...All age gun dog...
Why does one have to be better then another? I appreciate All age dogs do i want my dogs to be a dot on the horizon No i don't as I NSTRA trial and Guide and wild bird hunt on foot..But I do look to those very all age dogs for the run the stamina etc..
asrgueing is only trying to say one is better which always will put someone on ends..I look to a back ground where the dog shows the abilities to do what I want..No matter what venue it is in.

[Dave Quindt]

Everybody has a different defenition of what is broke and what is not broke. Some say a broke dog is one that will point till you flush, some say it is one that is steady to wing, and shot. Some say it needs to be wing, shot and fall.

Not too sure about that. When you hear "broke dog stakes" I don't know anyone, including the NSTRA guys I know, who confuse that with NSTRA trials. In my mind, "broke" is like "pregnant"; there is no "kind of".

Excellent question...which is harder to obtain?

It's an "apples or oranges" kind of question. One is a modified trial, the other is a test.

The big difference is that NSTRA is not a "dog game" like the majority of other events; NSTRA is a "dog and people game". When you involve the skill of the handler DIRECTLY in the judgement of the dog (i.e. shooting of birds by the handler), it no longer becomes "just about the dog".

MH has a itty bitty bird area and all the dog has to do is be steady to wing shot and fall
NSTRA the dog has to be continuous on all the bird work

Not completely true - in some parts of the country hunt tests are held without birdfields. Lots of MHs out there that have never seen a birdfield.

JMO,
Dave

[snips]

This is a hard one to answer, I guess it boils down to personal preference. I would say that I have seen PLENTY of MH`s I would not own, just as I have seen plenty of NSTRA Ch`s I would not own. MH demonstrates how well a dog performs to a high level of training and obedience. Sometimes you have to look at how many tests it takes to obtain a title in hunt tests or how long it takes to obtain a CH, but in NSTRA it is a competition and it IS about birdwork as well as the gunner. I like the fact that the dog is proving himself against all breeds in a competitive arena. Hunt tests are a test only to prove that a dog can be trained to a higher level, which is also important. Discussions like this generally go nowhere, as it really just amounts to personal preference, as I said. IMO it just comes down to the individual dog and how nice he or she is.

[TAK]

For me, it would me the MH.

When it comes to breeding hunting dogs, especially those of us looking for performance-quality breedings, one of the most important traits is trainability and stability.

A MH titled dog is one that's fully steady, and has proven that he can retain his training. That's something a NSTRA CH title doesn't give you.

I have issues breeding unbroke/partially broke dogs. There are weaknesses in dogs that are often not identified unless the dog is broke.

Having said that, I'd rather not see pedigrees full of only MH titles; I'd like to see pedigrees full of FC titles AND MH titles.

FWIW,
Dave

Sorry but I have to disagree!
So you say a dog that breaks at the shot or flush may have a bad trait to pass on?
Everything and anything is the same from MH Vs NSTRA right up to the point the bird is flushed, this is were it difs a little. One guy lets the dog go with the bird the other doesn't?
"weaknesses in dogs that are often not identified unless the dog is broke." So what are we going to find????? What trait is the NSTRA dog passing on?
When it boils down to it you are talking polish and desired training on the dogs. Not the breeding of them!

[rschuster54303`]

I know very little about NASTRA, I only have second hand knowledge on it so I can not pass judgement.

MH's IMHO are over trained....and as a few people have said there are deffinatley MH's I would not own. Although I have seen others that were plain nice dogs.

To broaden the question I would have to agree with Mr. Quindt as I look for FC's and NFC's but you get variations in that as well, and have to be mindful of the type of run your looking for.


Tuff question to answer, I would chaulk it up to personal prefferance.

The more dog related topics I get into the more I come to the realization that 75% of it is opinion and we all know what body part opinions are like.

Regards,

Rob

[ckfowler]

NSTRA doesn't score the handler'sperformance like NBDCA, UFTA, or most of the tournament style events. It can take you 3 shots to kill a bird in NSTRA with no effect other than distance for retrive. Tournament events take points for missed shots. FYI

I have and will continue to hunt behind a MH quality dog and agree that he is way better trained than my dog (who does poorly even in NSTRA scores). His owner is a better trainer that puts more time into her dogs. Not sure he is a better dog than mine to hunt with though, just has different skills. We hunt them together sometimes and rib each other about flaws but they end up complimenting each other's strengths well. BTW, I am a WAY better shot than her

[Richard *UT*]

I have to say NASTRA for me. The reason being I want to hunt my dog primarily and trial secondary. I think MH is great and I know you can hunt behind them but for getting on winged birds, which is a hunting situation, NASTRA asks for what I want. I would not turn away from a pup that has either though. Both can be trained, both can hunt and the rest is training. The truth is I just like watching good, well trained dogs work.

[sdgord]

For me it would be the MH dog, not having competed in NSTRA I cant give an opinion on that level. As soon as I can find an event within a five hour drive I would like to enter that venue also. From what I have seen an AKC SH dog would fit most hard core hunters quite well. There have been only a couple of MH dogs I have seen that I would care to hunt with. I have heard it around the hunt test circles that SH dog are hunters dogs and MH are trainers dogs. Both my Gordons are MH trained, having said that they pick and choose the times to be fully MH trained.SDGORD

[kninebirddog]

Why does one have to be better then another?

Any title which an owner has gone out with their dog and earned it is great this all goes to show what a dog is capable of .....American field AKC NSTRA NAVDHA etc etc....They all should be applauded for the accomplishment and looked for in a breeding....
I chosse to run NSTRA because i can go to more trials and it looked like something I could do....Hunt tests when i got into dogs they were very far and few between...AKC again not that many trials and most what i saw required horses and alot of extra stuff which I couldn't afford at the time...does it make it worse NO but I didn't let it stop me from going out and proving my dogs in a format of some kind.
Then the most important is the dam and sire themselves...Look to them and is it something you like.

[Katies Dad]

Can a dog have both titles?

[kninebirddog]

Yes it can if the owner runs both venues ..a dog can earn almost any title as long as the owner enters runs and wins

[wannabe]

My friend and I have been arguing over this and would like some opinions.
If you were looking at a dogs pedigree which one would you rather see a NSTRA CH or a MH and why?

I would rather see NFC/NAFC/DC/FC/AFC than a NSTRA title. A MH or NAVHDA UT I along with the field trial titles would be a bonus. The field trials and hunt test try to simulate hunting situations, but I am not sure what NSTRA is about other than run-and-gun post-hatch Easter Egg hunting.

[kninebirddog]

And here are the kind of answers that bring out animosity in people ...

Just because it isn't something you have tried or like .."It is to be looked down on...."
I would rather see SOMETHING then nothing...and ANY venue that gets a person out to do anything with their dog is good...anything which gets an owner to strive for a little better relation is good

God people..... GROW UP

My friend and I have been arguing over this and would like some opinions.
If you were looking at a dogs pedigree which one would you rather see a NSTRA CH or a MH and why?

I would rather see NFC/NAFC/DC/FC/AFC than a NSTRA title. A MH or NAVHDA UT I along with the field trial titles would be a bonus. The field trials and hunt test try to simulate hunting situations, but I am not sure what NSTRA is about other than run-and-gun post-hatch Easter Egg hunting.

[ezzy333]

Wannabe,

That wasn't necessary. If you don't know then don't make a comment. We like to hear peoples opinions about things they know and do.

Ezzy

[snips]

I totally agree Ezzy. The last FT I went to there were no birds killed. It was not like any hunt I have been on. (could not help it)

[pear]

Wannabe, Thanks for showing us the real you.... That was totally uncalled for, and will not be tolerated here. We are all here to learn and share. If you have a problem with that concept, I suggest you move on. The question ask, was a reasonable one and deserves a respectful discussion....... "Wannabe", mabe the handle says it all......"pear"

[larue]

pear,I have ran in nstra,and I hate to break this to you,but nstra is
a run and shoot game,and as far as manners it is not even remotely equal to either the master or the akc or af field trials.
That being said,nstra is a fun game,that will showcase a dog with a good nose,or a handler who knows how to play the game.
Snips,lets be honest here there is only one format that really
duplicates wild bird hunting,wild bird trials,be they cover dog,or
horseback trial wild bird trials.
I guess if you hunt game farms then the hunt tests,or navhda or
nstra would duplicate a hunt pretty well,but if you are a wild bird hunter,few of our games even come close to duplicatiing the real thing.
I recently went out west hunting with a friend who owns a game farm,he could not hit the wild pheasants out in sd,as they were
wild,and flushed hard.He could not believe the difference in the birds.
My opinon on the better of the two titles is this,neither one is better,just different.

[pear]

larue, You have missed the whole point. It wasn't what he, (wannabe) said but how he said it. I don't feel that comparing NSTRA Championships and Hunt Test Titles are even, a fair comparison, but still a legitimate question.
Neither can be obtained without training your dog to a certain level. Having one MH one soon to be MH and a JH, as well as numerous field titles in the so called "run and gun events", I have no trouble understanding how it all works. Non of it can be obtained, without a certain level of dedication, dog to hunter, and hunter to dog.
wannabe's, lack of respect is the issue. These are all games we play for our entertainment and satisfaction. Calling NSTRA type events " run and gun post hatch Easter egg hunts" is/was totally disrespectful and uncalled for, and won't be tolerated here. Grant hosts this board for clean wholesome discussion about gundogs and the uses of them. We are all here to learn and share. wannabe's post was neither informative or jovial.........."pear"

[gunner]

What is one looking for when doing a search for MH or NSTRA titles on a pedigree?
Personally I'd look at a pedigree to show me titles that show a dog has won in open breed competition, judged by unbiased, knowledgeable dogfolk, on courses and wild gamebird not unlike one would find while upland gamebird hunting, and to also show potential owners and breeders the natural attributes needed to be a class hunting or field trial animal.
I would look at the championships on pedigrees of those animals running in traditional field trial stakes. American Field or Amateur Field Trial Clubs of America standards that bring to the forefront those animals that show those natural inherited instincts so important to an upland gamebird hunter or breeder.
Intelligence, nose, stamina, endurance, tractability, trainability to be finished, speed, with the class, and confirmation; good health and longevity to be expected.
The American Field's Field Dog Stud Book registrations has stood the test of time being the oldest stud book in the country serving knowledgeable dogfolk, hunters and breeders for well over a century.

[ezzy333]

Larue,

You are about right on any trial not being the same as hunting, Trials are games we have made special rules for but they do showcase at least some aspect of hunting. And each is a great way to advance your dogs training which translates to spending time with them. The only issue I see that maybe you don't understand is that half of the birds that you shot at in SD are the same pen raised birds the game farms buy. Its interesting I think to hear the wonderful comments about wildbird hunting compared to pen raised and at the same time it comes out that the same people can't tell the difference if they don't know which are which. I would guess you didn't know that the state releases thousands of birds to supplement the wild ones and it has worked for years.

Ezzy

[snips]

Having been to all of the trial venues, I have to say that each one is nothing more than a game. I also see how a good handler (as well as a nice dog) is most benificial in each venue. Some venues just demonstrate a higher level of training. I have seen many NSTRA dogs, that if had better trainers or handlers could be great dogs. I am sure this is also true in any trial format. Our NSTRA dog has almost made a FC in 3 trials, it does not seem to hard to me, he just had to have a little more steadying up. Any nice dog in any venue will crop to the top in winning. That is what I look for in a dog, that winning performance. Hunt tests do not show that side of a dog, but are very valuable IMO is showing complete trainability. Any dog that I use in a breeding program I have to know that it is a nice dog, regardless of titles, that is the bottom line.

[ezzy333]

Well said and so very true Brenda.

Ezzy

[larue]

ezzy333,I was not aware of the fact that the state released pheasants in the pierre national grasslands,in late oct.
I guess they release the praire chicken's and the sharptails as well.
I also guess that wi plants the ruffed grouse I find here in the north woods.
Minnesota must release the ducks I shoot,and nd must release the sharptails and huns.
I am planning a trip to montana next year so I guess I had better
get ahold of the game dept and find out where they plant there birds,so I can have some success.
by the way ezzy,where do all those small young pheasants come from I find in the grasslands every fall during opening of grouse season?
I am going to email the pierre national grasslands headquarters and ask them if they release pheasants into there grouse
habitat.I will let you know there answer.
I do take great pride in the fact when I hunt,it is on wild birds.
When I train,unfortunatly it is on released birds.

snips,it sounds like your dog is a nice dog,if you want a greater
challenge,try a big horseback event.

[sdgord]

Ezzy I dont know where you get your information, but according to the South Dakota Game Fish and Parks dept they do not release pheasants. It is just not cost effective, as out of a thousand birds released perhaps only ten will survive a SD blizzard.SDGORD

[snips]

Larue, he has done 2 or 3, took 2nd in one, and if they could find him he would most likely be finished on his other runs. He is not in Amateur, only Open Stakes. In NSTRA he takes off and does not stop til on a bird. Of course the judges keep them in sight at all times, which I like, because a dog cannot get by with anything that a judge does not see. Fritz is always found on a bird, and it is not always that far, just lots of cover.

[NDBDHunter]

As soon as I can find an event within a five hour drive I would like to enter that venue also. SDGORD

How close are you to Oaks ND? There are 3 or 4 NSTRA Trials there this spring. I'm going to enter a couple just for the fun of it.

Off topic ....Sorry

[Greg Jennings]

Discussions like this generally go nowhere, as it really just amounts to personal preference, as I said. IMO it just comes down to the individual dog and how nice he or she is.

Ditto to both.

Best,