over-used sires causing a genetic bottleneck?

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over-used sires causing a genetic bottleneck?

Post by FLocker » Wed Apr 28, 2010 2:33 pm

I was reading a retriever/dog blog (retrieverman.com) the other day. He spends a some of his time criticizing the AKC's closed registry, and the high inbreeding coefficients of many purebred dogs.

I generally feel better about dogs bred for ability as opposed to conformation. But he brings up a very interesting point. Are our current field-trial systems causing the same genetic bottlenecks that will damage working breeds in the near future? How many litters does a champion EP, or GSP sire, and is it a disporportinate % of the total working litters?

Have working gun dogs remained generally free of damaging genetic disorders, while retaining relatively consistent physiscal conformation?

I've always felt that we were miles above those dog show people who show Pekingese dogs that can't breathe, Bulldogs that cant mate or give birth, and German Shepards that can't walk. But maybe it's all competiton that is bad for these dogs in the long run.

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Re: over-used sires causing a genetic bottleneck?

Post by 1vizsla » Wed Apr 28, 2010 2:46 pm

Well, I agree with your last statement in general. And yes, it can cause issues in genetics if not watched carefully. This is why I leave the breeding to other more knowlegable people than me.

I always laugh at the field people vs show people argument. Both say the same thing about each others breeding ethics but both have a tendancy to breed for what is winning in their respective sport. So no, the working field dogs are not without their issues and have the same problems in breeding (differing conformation styles, working abilites and certain diseases yada yada yada) as show dogs. I believe that a breeder should breed for the total package (field and show) in order to "Better" the breed. Just my opinion though.

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Re: over-used sires causing a genetic bottleneck?

Post by FLocker » Wed Apr 28, 2010 3:55 pm

This is an article about Yogi the Vizsla who sired 525 pups, or 10% of all litters born during his career:

http://www.heraldsun.com.au/news/how-ma ... 5848263831

That has to be too much, right?

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Re: over-used sires causing a genetic bottleneck?

Post by slistoe » Wed Apr 28, 2010 5:27 pm

So 90% of the pups are not related to him. Not much of a bottleneck.

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Re: over-used sires causing a genetic bottleneck?

Post by jimbo&rooster » Wed Apr 28, 2010 7:33 pm

For a single dog to sire 1 in 10 pups is unreal. Especially in a breed with such a small gene pool to begin with. Not that this is necesarily a bad thing since this dog was obviously a quality sire (or at leas desireable) but imagine if one Lab sired 10 percent of the pups over his career......
Bottle kneck? Maybe not but it would certainly explain some common genetically carried health issues within given breeds.
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Re: over-used sires causing a genetic bottleneck?

Post by FLocker » Thu Apr 29, 2010 6:34 am

I really don't have a strong opinion. My spaniels don't have a huge amount of genetic diversity themselves.

I just wonder if thinking long term, should a lot more individual dogs within a given breed sire litters, even if they are not the absoulute best examples, from a working standpoint.

People villify backyard breeders, but it sounds like they are unwittingly helping to improve the genetic diversity of some of the more rare gun dog breeds?

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Re: over-used sires causing a genetic bottleneck?

Post by DeadwoodDogs » Thu Apr 29, 2010 7:49 am

In looking at the NAVHDA GSPs, I see one particular sire that has resulted in a bottleneck. Interesting thing is the dog was never NAVHDA tested but is a DC dog. He is found multiple times in many kennel's pedigrees. It is prevelant in my pedigrees and when looking for an outcross, it is sometimes difficult to find a quality line bred dog from another family.

Its something NAVHDA GSP breeders should be concerned about.
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Re: over-used sires causing a genetic bottleneck?

Post by myerstenn » Thu Apr 29, 2010 8:22 am

DeadwoodDogs wrote:In looking at the NAVHDA GSPs, I see one particular sire that has resulted in a bottleneck. Interesting thing is the dog was never NAVHDA tested but is a DC dog. He is found multiple times in many kennel's pedigrees. It is prevelant in my pedigrees and when looking for an outcross, it is sometimes difficult to find a quality line bred dog from another family.

Its something NAVHDA GSP breeders should be concerned about.








Just because a dog is found multiple times in a pedigree doesnt mean there is a genetic bottleneck, many good breeders are proponets of line breeding and they are trying to concerate the disireable genes in the pool. The flip side is also true, undesirable traits need to be culled from the gene pool .

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Re: over-used sires causing a genetic bottleneck?

Post by snips » Thu Apr 29, 2010 8:24 am

You talking about Hustler?
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Re: over-used sires causing a genetic bottleneck?

Post by Greg Jennings » Thu Apr 29, 2010 9:01 am

snips wrote:You talking about Hustler?
Just about has to be.

I found this especially interesting
Interesting thing is the dog was never NAVHDA tested but is a DC dog.
I guess I'm surprised that it would get anyone's attention.

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Re: over-used sires causing a genetic bottleneck?

Post by FLocker » Thu Apr 29, 2010 9:55 am

In general, are coefficients of inbreedeing higher among top trial GSPs than top trial EPs?

i think of them both as healthy, long-lived breeds.

I guess its an impossible problem, because people want the very best dogs avialable at any given time, but that mindset is probalby bad for the breed's health in the long term. No one wants to spend 10-15 years with a mediocre dog from a careless breeding or one that was done just to diversify the gene pool.

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Re: over-used sires causing a genetic bottleneck?

Post by DeadwoodDogs » Thu Apr 29, 2010 11:19 am

Of course its Hustler. Great dog and some great offspring. But we don't need every kennel breeding Hustler dogs. Some diversity is needed too. And if you think that Hustler was problem-free then you have your head in the sand.

I'm an advocate of line breeding and close inbreeding. But we need other options to combine with the genetics Hustler had to offer.

Hustler sitting in your pedigree 3-5 generations back may or may not be problematic. If he's there multiple times with half brother-half sister matings and uncle niece matings then he is still contributing greatly to present day dogs.

I'm not knocking Hustler one bit. I got it, I like it. I just think that we (NAVHDA breeders) should not limit our gene pool.
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Re: over-used sires causing a genetic bottleneck?

Post by snips » Thu Apr 29, 2010 11:23 am

Hustler has been dead for yrs...I owned a son of his that died almost 2 yrs ago at 17 years old and Hustler was 14 when I bred to him, so I am not sure how he could possibly be that close up in any pedigree.
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Re: over-used sires causing a genetic bottleneck?

Post by DeadwoodDogs » Thu Apr 29, 2010 11:31 am

Breeders have been line breeding and inbreeding Hustler offspring for many years. His impact is widespread. A look at many NAVHDA kennel websites and pedigrees shows it.

Trying to find a NAVHDA tested, linebred dog that is Hustler-free is not impossible but there are not that many. I went to the DKV for my outcrosses in the past. So did others - and now many of us have the same basic pedigrees.
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Re: over-used sires causing a genetic bottleneck?

Post by Greg Jennings » Thu Apr 29, 2010 12:30 pm

Hustler passed on almost 16 years ago.

From the conversations I've read here and overheard in person, close line breeding on Hustler just did not work.

Thus, there are well-known nicks like Hustler x Wendy von Enzstrand.

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Re: over-used sires causing a genetic bottleneck?

Post by Greg Jennings » Thu Apr 29, 2010 1:00 pm

I had a similar thought about Axel von Wasserschling.

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Re: over-used sires causing a genetic bottleneck?

Post by DeadwoodDogs » Thu Apr 29, 2010 1:32 pm

Mr. Hill - I fully agree, and that is what I was getting at. Many of us now have Hege-Haus, Pottsiepen (mainly Hege-Haus and Wasserschling), and Hustler crossed lines.


Mr. Jennings - Hustler offspring have been linebred and inbred with some excellent success and that is the Hustler inbreeding that I am familiar with. I am aware of their strenths and some of their weaknesses.

My Pottsiepen - Hustler family crosses produced the type of dog I like and I have continued to linebreed the offspring from those outcrosses, and will continue to do so.

But I am always looking for a linebred stud that is a complete outcross for future influx of new genes. The last two outcrosses I did were to a DK stud that was an outcross dog himself and I got some nice pups but I think I could get better predictability of type, temperament and performance if the stud was linebred himself.

I've done some research on DKs but wouldn't consider myself the authority; however, there are some kennels in Germany that have dogs with little to no Hege-Haus in them. One kennel I was impressed with - both the dogs and the breeder was Delme Horst.
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Re: over-used sires causing a genetic bottleneck?

Post by Greg Jennings » Thu Apr 29, 2010 2:26 pm

DeadwoodDogs wrote:Mr. Jennings - Hustler offspring have been linebred and inbred with some excellent success and that is the Hustler inbreeding that I am familiar with.
Search the archives here. It's been debated often enough.

Inbred Hustler might well lead to bad bites, softness, lack of snap and intensity.

Cross Hustler with Beiers Evolution, Wildburg, etc. and you get bird dogs. Sometimes fire-breathing bird dogs.

Heck, Hustler is all over my dog and the dogs that I'm familiar with. But they are all crosses.

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Re: over-used sires causing a genetic bottleneck?

Post by DeadwoodDogs » Thu Apr 29, 2010 2:29 pm

Can't argue with what you're saying because I've seen all that and more personally.
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Re: over-used sires causing a genetic bottleneck?

Post by 3Britts » Thu Apr 29, 2010 3:56 pm

Even in line breeding, most breeders tend to bring in outside bloodlines in an effort to improve their lines. When you look at most line bred dogs, you will find that they have a large enough gene pool to not cause much in the way of concern. Those that do cause concern often fade quickly.

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Re: over-used sires causing a genetic bottleneck?

Post by ACooper » Thu Apr 29, 2010 5:25 pm

Do you think that one of the reasons Cecil was so popluar as a navhda sire was that he was "something different"?

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Re: over-used sires causing a genetic bottleneck?

Post by DeadwoodDogs » Thu Apr 29, 2010 6:00 pm

I think Cecil was brought into the equation to compensate for the soft pointing and flagging. But he brought other undesireable characteristics too. I personally didn't use him so I can't speak from too much first hand knowledge. You guys in the midwest have seen more Cecil offspring than I have.

But you bring in the new to compensate for weaknesses and have to run through a few breedings and generations to acquire the good genes while trying to weed out the undesirable. There's no quick fix no matter what breeding program or family lines you are working with. Improvement doesn't come in one generation.
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Re: over-used sires causing a genetic bottleneck?

Post by lvrgsp » Thu Apr 29, 2010 8:45 pm

Yea yea yea.....Hustlers been dead for yadda yadda years but yet they linebred the crap out of him, oh but wait he's been gone for 2 or 3 gens now, yet you see guys still linebreeding, on him, claiming there litter to be Hustler and so and so bred, so don't give me the whole he's been dead to longcrap if everyone's still claiming his name for fame....No different then folks doing it for Rusty, Moesgaard, Checkmate, Clown...the list goes on...not anyones any better either.

As for Cecil both my dogs now have a very strong Cecil influence, one is a direct son....as for faults, not sure what Greg is getting at but what I can see as potential problems are very very driven strong willed dogs for an individual not ready for that type of dog, exceptionally strong pointing desire they start early. Good noses, not for the faint of heart. As for the Navhda lines and Cecil, he fixed a ton of problems for them, and I will give Greg kudos for saying it not many Navhda folks want to give Cecil credit for fixing there faults. He was not a perfect dog himself, but he did a lot of good for the breed in many different venues for many dofferent types of owner/ handlers, I will have a Cecil influence in all of my dogs if I have any say so.


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Re: over-used sires causing a genetic bottleneck?

Post by volraider » Thu Apr 29, 2010 9:47 pm

lvrgsp,

The difference between the Hustler linebreeding and the other ones you mentioned are the breeders of those lines. I see more solid linebreeding and inbreeding off of Hustler compared to the guys breeding the other dogs you mentioned. There is a lot of guys claiming linebreeding that don't have a clue what they are talking about. A dog showing up twice in the 4th or 5th generation is not linebreeding or at least not on that dog. There's a couple of guys out there breeding off Hustler with COI's in the 20's. I could be wrong but I have never seen a Rusty or any of the others you mentioned in the teens much less 20's. Some of the old Moseguard stuff was really high but I haven't seen that stuff in awhile. I have a linebred Hustler dog with a COI at 29% that goes back to Hustler 12 times in 10 generations. I would think people would be scared to linebreed off of a couple of them dogs you mentioned. :roll: :D

As for the NAVHDA breeders, I think on a whole they care as much and put as much effort into their breedings as any group out there. I do see some dogs in NAVHDA though that act more like robots than bird dogs.

I like the Cecil stuff a lot too. As a matter of fact I have 3 or his off spring in my kennel.

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Re: over-used sires causing a genetic bottleneck?

Post by volraider » Thu Apr 29, 2010 9:52 pm

Coop,

I think Cecil throws high drive. Drive in the hands of good trainers = prizes! NAVHDA has a bunch of good trainers.

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Re: over-used sires causing a genetic bottleneck?

Post by Ridge-Point » Thu Apr 29, 2010 10:17 pm

gpblitz wrote:
DeadwoodDogs wrote: think Cecil was brought into the equation to compensate for the soft pointing and flagging. But he brought other undesireable characteristics too.
What were some of the undsireable characteristics that Cecil brought in. I have never heard much. All i've heard is strong point, great nose.
I think the faults are in the conformation. Not that cecil was a bad looking dog, but looking at pictures of his offspring you don't see consistantly great conformation. So if excellent conformation is something you care about, breeding to some lines can throw a pretty good monkey wrench into your program.

I don't think the more popular gun dog breeds are in any way suffering from a lack of genetic diversity. It's just a question of what you are willing to give up to get it.

I really like the pups I got out of Ruger, a Cecil son. I really love the style on the ground, the dogs are so animated and smart.

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Re: over-used sires causing a genetic bottleneck?

Post by Coveyrise64 » Thu Apr 29, 2010 10:51 pm

gpblitz wrote:
DeadwoodDogs wrote: think Cecil was brought into the equation to compensate for the soft pointing and flagging. But he brought other undesireable characteristics too.
What were some of the undsireable characteristics that Cecil brought in. I have never heard much. All i've heard is strong point, great nose.
The only negative I have heard was about his retrieving. That was from someone who bred to him several times. I'm pleased with the Cecil blood I have in my three.

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Re: over-used sires causing a genetic bottleneck?

Post by Yawallac » Thu Apr 29, 2010 11:10 pm

Interesting thread. I think there is plenty of NAVHDA GSP blood available w/o Hustler in it.

Where are you located Deadwood?

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Re: over-used sires causing a genetic bottleneck?

Post by volraider » Fri Apr 30, 2010 2:57 am

Ross,

Some of the Enzo stuff from out west seems to be pretty nice, but in the rest of the country I can't think of any breeders, that are not DK, doing anything but the Hustler stuff. I didn't know you had Cecil stuff? You need to breed some stub tails instead of all of them long tails you are producing! :D

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Re: over-used sires causing a genetic bottleneck?

Post by DeadwoodDogs » Fri Apr 30, 2010 3:16 am

I'm in PA.

I know there are NAVHDA dogs without Hustler, but the number of linebred or inbred stud dogs without Hustler are few...and I want to emphasize the linebred or inbred part there.

I also consider overall conformation in my breeding selections as well - coat, size, head type and tail set. I'm not looking for 12 o'clock or curved up tails - I'll keep the 45 degree tail angle. I want a 65-70 lb male and 50-55 lb female with a dense coat for cold water work and a larger head with a long squared-off muzzle.

One particular issue that was relayed to me by a breeder with Cecil experience was monorchid dogs.

I was a fan of Caden's Rowdy Rudy - very nice dog that worked hard at an early age - and I believe a Cecil son?
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Re: over-used sires causing a genetic bottleneck?

Post by snips » Fri Apr 30, 2010 6:17 am

I only know of one person breeding Hustler that heavy...Maybe there are more I am not aware of, but he does not do NAVHDA. Maybe there are alot of people doing NAVHDA with his dogs...?
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Re: over-used sires causing a genetic bottleneck?

Post by Yawallac » Fri Apr 30, 2010 6:28 am

I also consider overall conformation in my breeding selections as well - coat, size, head type and tail set. I'm not looking for 12 o'clock or curved up tails - I'll keep the 45 degree tail angle. I want a 65-70 lb male and 50-55 lb female with a dense coat for cold water work and a larger head with a long squared-off muzzle.
Kinda like this guy? :D

http://www.perfectpedigrees.com/4genview.php?id=1146

One of the best NAVHDA dogs ever was a dog named Woodland's Lord Hanschen MH UT I and I believe that Dan still has a frozen breeding or two. He's in VA. You can see his pedigree in my boy's bottom side.

But you know, the best NAVHDA GSP I ever owned (and the youngest UT ever at the time at 11 mos.) was a dog right out of horseback stock. Bossman, Koonas, etc. The point is that tapping into some good strong FT stuff would help a lot of NAVHDA breeding programs imo.

BTW, my avatar is a NA PII 107 ...he wouldn't track, just ran straight to the hedgerow, found and retrieved the pheasant ...three times in a row! Tested him again, same thing and same result. I wanted a PI but I wasn't too disappointed because he accomplished the goal by producing the bird. I was disappointed however, when he found and retrieved two planted pheasants at the National Pheasant Futurity when George Tracy was running him ...oops! Dang NAVHDA training!! :lol:
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Re: over-used sires causing a genetic bottleneck?

Post by JKP » Fri Apr 30, 2010 7:11 am

But you know, the best NAVHDA GSP I ever owned (and the youngest UT ever at the time at 11 mos.) was a dog right out of horseback stock. Bossman, Koonas, etc. The point is that tapping into some good strong FT stuff would help a lot of NAVHDA breeding programs imo.
I think a fair amount of FT genetics is continually being brought in to the NAVHDA GSP. Jim Reiser gave a great talk years ago while showing a 2o generation pedigree on how he infused various genetics, including FT, into his breeding program. I think when you get a sire like Hustler that proves out quality through production, you can have some confidence. But as far as new rising stars, I would tend to let others run to the flavor of the month and wait a while for the results. One think that always concerned me about FT dogs (and I guess I'm referring to the GWP when I was involved) was the lack of info on litter results or generational ability. Always seemed it was about the individual great dog and there was very little info on the rest of the litter.

Anyone actually done any COI on dogs they think might be tightly bred? or on your own lines? I'm willing to bet there is little to worry about.
I was amused to read a paper recently on DD and the concern of the author that the number of lines has been reduced from 200 down to 80 over the past 75 years. I think it will be a while before we see 2 headed puppies with 80 breeding lines!!!

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Re: over-used sires causing a genetic bottleneck?

Post by FLocker » Fri Apr 30, 2010 8:22 am

Is there any evidence that either the trial or NAVHDA dogs are any less healthy or have shorter lifespans than they did 30-40 years ago, before the dogs got really popular here?

Most people agree that that from a performance standpoint, the dogs have gotten better since then, but I wonder if reasonable folks in your community have concerns about the long term effects on the breed. A golden breeder i saw, for example, was advocating litters with 10 and 12 gen COIs of 6.25% or less. That seems s little extreme to me.

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Re: over-used sires causing a genetic bottleneck?

Post by volraider » Fri Apr 30, 2010 10:50 am

Flocker are you saying that 6 or 7 % is a hi COI?

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Re: over-used sires causing a genetic bottleneck?

Post by BigShooter » Fri Apr 30, 2010 11:08 am

No, he was saying 6 -7 % or less is lower than it needs to be.
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Re: over-used sires causing a genetic bottleneck?

Post by DeadwoodDogs » Fri Apr 30, 2010 11:20 am

I've had my best results with COI around 20-22%. Some litters are much less and a few slightly more.

Here's where my next pup is coming from. Hard driving on both sides with a COI of 12.77%
http://www.friedelsheim-gsp.com/ForestC ... digree.htm

Then, this coming winter will be Forest x Zosia with a COI of 18.88%
Pedigree attached. (Not on the pedigree but Zosia has a UTI also)
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Re: over-used sires causing a genetic bottleneck?

Post by ACooper » Sun May 02, 2010 7:29 am

tcjack wrote: but i have never heard about cecil? :?

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Re: over-used sires causing a genetic bottleneck?

Post by JKP » Mon May 03, 2010 6:46 am

Did you know Hustler to know what his traits really were? I think alot of people like to assume, but didn't really know the dog.
This is a very good point. I didn't know Hustler and I am not making any comment on the dog. I am simply speaking to the point.

We tend to focus on the performance and the fame..after all, the wins survive in the record book. What we lose track of are the other aspects...what was the dog like physically? to live with? easy to train? was the dog calm? edgey/hyper? PITA to live with? developed late?

There is a lot that gets lost over time...but you have to honor the great ones...and the people that got them there.

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Re: over-used sires causing a genetic bottleneck?

Post by lvrgsp » Mon May 03, 2010 11:18 am

JKP wrote:
...and the people that got them there.
More truth in those last seven words, than most folks want to admit.
Great dogs are not born, they are developed over years of patience and training, and have developed a special bond with there owner/trainer...And that is what makes them special. Very nicely said JKP....

JMO..of course... :wink:

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