steady to wing or shot?

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Re: steady to wing or shot?

Post by RayGubernat » Sat May 01, 2010 12:58 pm

tcjack -

A lot depends on what you want and what and how you hunt.

As far as I am concerned, there are only a few reasons to keep a hunting dog totally steady, that is to wing, shot and fall. One of those reasons is to keep the dog from busting covey birds that are still on the ground as it chases after the ones that flew. it will also keep the dog from busting the next pheasant in the preserve field because it isa chasing one you just shot at and missed or wing tipped.

The other is for the safety of the dog . If the dog stands through the fall of the bird, there is very little chance for it to be accidentally shot.

My opinion is that a dog that self releases at the shot is probably all most hunters need and since the shot has already been fired, the safety angle is pretty well covered also.

Such a dog can almost always be whoaed verbally, if necessary.

If I hunted alone, I would endeavor to teach my dog a maneuver that , well, ain't in the books. At least not here in the USA. I would teach the dog to take one single step, on command, while on point.

Here's my logic. I come up on the dog on point. it is pointing into a thicket or tangle of nasty stuff. Tof lush the bird, i have to go into the thick stuff ahead of the dog and when the bird(s) do get up, i often have no shot because i am compeltely out of position.

Now, if I can pick a shooting lane, get my feet set and command the dog to "ADVANCE" and the dog takes one single step and then freezes again, on point, if the dog's forward motion puts the bird to flight, i, very often will have a good shot. If the dog does not flush, i still have the option of walking the dog into the bird...one step at a time.

If you got a dog to do that, you would kill a whole lot of birds.

Just another way to go about it.

RayG

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Re: steady to wing or shot?

Post by Dave Quindt » Sat May 01, 2010 1:09 pm

For me, the answer is yes. But I follow a training philosophy where all dogs, regardless of desired steadiness, are fully broke out in training. While it requires a bit more work from the trainer, but to me when done properly it's the easiest way for the dog to learn steadiness; the dog simply doesn't leave the spot of the point until told, regardless of what happens. Makes the issue black and white, which are the easiest things for dogs to learn.

I'd have the trainer teach a "remote send" command so you can send the dog for the retrieve at a distance, but I would use that command very sparingly for the first season. The beauty of a fully broke, polished dog is that you can send the dog for the retrieve whenever you want. You mention your sons starting to hunt. Having a broke dog around newbie hunters is a real pleasure, because you can focus on the gunners and not worry about the dog.

Downsides? It takes a bit more "maintenance" to keep a young dog broke but if you do your part steadiness becomes second nature to the dog. I've found that you be willing to "give up" the first bird of the day for the first year, and focus on the dog's manners and not killing the bird. If you can correct any issues on that first bird, it will go along way in keeping the dog's training together.

I know a lot of guys that own dogs of varying degrees of steadiness. I have yet to meet one who had a fully broke & polished dog who has ever gone back to allowing dogs to break at the flush or shot. Try it for a year or so; if you don't like it you can let the dog go back to breaking at the flush or shot.

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Re: steady to wing or shot?

Post by Ridge-Point » Sat May 01, 2010 1:22 pm

I like to go all the way. Steady until I say thier name. Steady to the flush, shot, fall, even to letting another dog fetch the bird in front of them. For me it's a safety factor, and allows me to hunt 2 dogs at a time. I had a dog go over a 20-30 foot cliff 2 years ago, he was fine, but there are some cliffs out in chukar country that are a few hundred feet down to jagged rocks. I like to steady them after thier 2nd season, when I start asking them to stand they will stand everytime from then on.

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Re: steady to wing or shot?

Post by Birddogz » Sun May 02, 2010 7:55 pm

Ridge-Point wrote:I like to go all the way. Steady until I say thier name. Steady to the flush, shot, fall, even to letting another dog fetch the bird in front of them. For me it's a safety factor, and allows me to hunt 2 dogs at a time. I had a dog go over a 20-30 foot cliff 2 years ago, he was fine, but there are some cliffs out in chukar country that are a few hundred feet down to jagged rocks. I like to steady them after thier 2nd season, when I start asking them to stand they will stand everytime from then on.

I agree 100% with "until you say their name". I have seen guys who tap them on the head. Screw that, I don't always want to be where my dog is.
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Re: steady to wing or shot?

Post by Rick Hall » Mon May 03, 2010 5:24 am

George Bird Evans wrote something along the lines of, "Having had a (completely) steady dog, I wouldn't want to do without." And I'm wit' him. For too many years and too many pointing dogs, I thought stopping at staunch (steady until I flushed or commanded the dog to) was the way to go "to prevent losing cripples," but experience with steady dogs has put that behind me.
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Re: steady to wing or shot?

Post by Ruffshooter » Mon May 03, 2010 6:18 am

For me never steady to the flush. I like Steady till sent for the retrieve. I would never settle for any less than Steady to the shot.

Why?
Steady to the flush means the dog is moving as soon as the bird moves or takes flight. For me too dangerous in many manners, Your dog could bump into you in some situations. You think the dog is clear of the bird and shot then he jumps or rises a hill, (shot dog). All safety reasons. Then if you miss the bird it is harder to get the dog to stop chasing, especially a young dog. Then your dog is giving chase and runs over and busts out more birds, then his mind is gone and frustration sets in.

I like Steady till sent with the ability to relocate if needed. No wasted time on missed. For those pheasant hunter that feel they need the dog to go on the shot, you are only talking about two seconds of time from flush to shot to send. So not really an issue. And for the NSTRA folks, same deal, I just came from Central Canada and placed 2nd on Sat. with my brit, he is steady till sent.

But to each there own.
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Re: steady to wing or shot?

Post by DeadwoodDogs » Mon May 03, 2010 7:29 am

Completely steady is the way to go.

Nothing worse than a dog breaking at flush or on the first shot when there's multiple birds and/or inexperienced gunners.

Steady = safety and peace of mind.
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Re: steady to wing or shot?

Post by Trekmoor » Mon May 03, 2010 4:14 pm

We do things a bit different this side of the pond. The pointing dog holds it's point until the handler reaches it. The handler then commands the dog to make the flush. Once the bird flushes the dog is expected to sit or to down or maybe remain standing - it depends on the cover and on the the dogs breed. Most pointer/setter folk train for a "down " but their dogs are usually being hunted over open fields or up on the heather moors.

So after the bird(s) has flushed the dog must stop and remain stopped, whether sitting, standing or lying down until it is released from that position following the shot and possible fall of game. This works very well for us but it becomes more difficult to keep the dog steady if the game is shot and the dog is expected to retrieve it. Our pointers and setters are not normally expected to retrieve and never are in trials. The hunt - point -retrieve group of gundogs are expected to retrieve so maintaining their steadiness is more difficult .

I don't think I'd like to shoot over a dog that always ran in to flush , or to shot or to fall of game ..........I wouldn't feel "comfortable."

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Re: steady to wing or shot?

Post by Hotpepper » Tue May 04, 2010 2:09 pm

My understanding is that the man with an dog that is not totally broke is afraid the bird will get away. Just the opposite is true in my humble opinon. Dogs on covies that break will flush any birds that do not leave with the covey, safety for the dog is a main consideration. With the dog in the move and a hunter shooting he is not watching for the dog.

Breaking for wing and shot has lots of more reasons that just for trialing.

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Re: steady to wing or shot?

Post by slistoe » Tue May 04, 2010 2:44 pm

Here is what I wrote on another board regarding the question:

"Steady is not necessary but whether you are hunting or competing it is safer, offers more opportunity at game, gives the hunter/handler more control, is advantageous in most retrieving scenarios and is more aesthetically pleasing.

Not steady is easier."

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Re: steady to wing or shot?

Post by Birddogz » Tue May 04, 2010 4:34 pm

Most of the time it is better. With wild pheasants it can be a disadvantage if you wing one. I like my dogs to be after them as fast as possible. If you can release the dog by their name then it is a moot point. If you have to tap them on the head, I don't like it.
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Re: steady to wing or shot?

Post by BigShooter » Tue May 04, 2010 5:25 pm

slistoe wrote:Here is what I wrote on another board regarding the question:

"Steady is not necessary but whether you are hunting or competing it is safer, offers more opportunity at game, gives the hunter/handler more control, is advantageous in most retrieving scenarios and is more aesthetically pleasing.

Not steady is easier."
In your post I couldn't find the answer to the OP's question, "How should I have him broke, steady to flush or steady to shot".
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Re: steady to wing or shot?

Post by slistoe » Tue May 04, 2010 5:42 pm

Steady.
just would some opinions on how i should have him broke, pluses and minisus
In keeping with the OP request I believe.

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Re: steady to wing or shot?

Post by BigShooter » Tue May 04, 2010 6:27 pm

You're right of course, even a newbie on the forum would know what you mean, steady ...... as opposed to ....... unsteady. Who would want that? Why is there even a question? I like my boats steady too. I liked steady girlfriends too! :lol:
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Re: steady to wing or shot?

Post by slistoe » Tue May 04, 2010 6:48 pm

:lol: You know, somehow I don't think you read the rest of the thread.
RayGubernat wrote:keep a hunting dog totally steady, that is to wing, shot and fall
Dave Quindt wrote:steadiness becomes second nature to the dog
Rick Hall wrote:experience with steady dogs
DeadwoodDogs wrote:Completely steady is the way to go
trekmoor wrote:keep the dog steady
Do you have any advice for the OP?

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Re: steady to wing or shot?

Post by Rich Heaton » Tue May 04, 2010 6:49 pm

RayGubernat wrote:I would teach the dog to take one single step, on command, while on point.

Here's my logic. I come up on the dog on point. it is pointing into a thicket or tangle of nasty stuff. Tof lush the bird, i have to go into the thick stuff ahead of the dog and when the bird(s) do get up, i often have no shot because i am compeltely out of position.

Now, if I can pick a shooting lane, get my feet set and command the dog to "ADVANCE" and the dog takes one single step and then freezes again, on point, if the dog's forward motion puts the bird to flight, i, very often will have a good shot. If the dog does not flush, i still have the option of walking the dog into the bird...one step at a time
Was that meant to be funny,,,,,,

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Re: steady to wing or shot?

Post by slistoe » Tue May 04, 2010 7:06 pm

Rich Heaton wrote:
RayGubernat wrote:I would teach the dog to take one single step, on command, while on point.

Here's my logic. I come up on the dog on point. it is pointing into a thicket or tangle of nasty stuff. Tof lush the bird, i have to go into the thick stuff ahead of the dog and when the bird(s) do get up, i often have no shot because i am compeltely out of position.

Now, if I can pick a shooting lane, get my feet set and command the dog to "ADVANCE" and the dog takes one single step and then freezes again, on point, if the dog's forward motion puts the bird to flight, i, very often will have a good shot. If the dog does not flush, i still have the option of walking the dog into the bird...one step at a time
Was that meant to be funny,,,,,,
Certainly very European.

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Re: steady to wing or shot?

Post by BigShooter » Tue May 04, 2010 11:07 pm

tcjack wrote: just would some opinions on how i should have him broke, pluses and minisus. STEADY TO FLUSH OR STEADY TO SHOT.
I understood your question to be what the pluses and minuses might be to stopping the training at steady to flush or having the training continue through steady to shot. If that is indeed the question many respondents have indicated as I do as well that from a safety standpoint we don't want the pointing dog moving with the flush. Furthermore if the dog moves with the flush it's less likely to be behind you at the shot and therefore will get more of the muzzle blast from the gun, accelerating the cumulative damage to it's hearing. The advantage of steadying only until the flush is that with many dogs that requires almost no training at all and almost no upkeep.

A completely broke dog by my definition is one that not only is steady to the fall & must be released before it will move but also stops with any flush of a bird in the field. One advantage to a completely broke dog is that it will have good manners at any distance. I know of a dog that has good manners and is honest through the flush within about 200 yards but at 500 yards the dog does not hold birds well. Instead of collar wise, the dog is distance wise.
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Re: steady to wing or shot?

Post by Birddogz » Wed May 05, 2010 7:42 am

Totally agree about a dog standing staunch when birds get up wild. A must when pheasant hunting. Having a dog that isn't released by the shot can lose you a few wild pheasants, but as a whole is a good idea. What I have found is nice about a broke dog is that the transformation from the uplands to the waterfowl sloughs is easier. When breaking them (after point and whoa are all good) sit and stay are very easily taught. My DD has become extremely calm in the duck blind, until a bird hits the water of course. :D I think being broke has helped with her acceptance of being still on command. Seems to mentally mature the dog.
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Re: steady to wing or shot?

Post by RayGubernat » Wed May 05, 2010 8:12 am

Rich Heaton wrote:
RayGubernat wrote:I would teach the dog to take one single step, on command, while on point.

Here's my logic. I come up on the dog on point. it is pointing into a thicket or tangle of nasty stuff. Tof lush the bird, i have to go into the thick stuff ahead of the dog and when the bird(s) do get up, i often have no shot because i am compeltely out of position.

Now, if I can pick a shooting lane, get my feet set and command the dog to "ADVANCE" and the dog takes one single step and then freezes again, on point, if the dog's forward motion puts the bird to flight, i, very often will have a good shot. If the dog does not flush, i still have the option of walking the dog into the bird...one step at a time
Was that meant to be funny,,,,,,

Rich -

Very often, in fact most often, the shooting opportunities that are presented in this area involve the dog pointing into a twelve to twenty foot high, ten to twenty foot wide tangle of multiflora rose or greenbrier or russian olive, or some variation of all of the above. The birds are almost never in the open. Makes for some interesting, and frustrating wingshooting.

As a yong man, I actually saw a dog, a GSP in fact, that was so trained. I had the opportunity to hunt over this dog on several occasions. It was absolutely awesome to watch. She would establish a rock solid point and once the gunners wer in position, her owner and trainer gave her the command "ADVANCE" wherupon she took precisely one step forward and then locked up again...tight as a tick. She would repeat the drill of precisely one step and then lock up each time the command was issued. Oh and she was steady to wing and shot as well. Incredibly effective tool for the single hunter in cover. Awesome dog too.

Of course, being too dumb or embarassed to ask questions, I never learned how to get a dog trained to execute that maneuver and the trainer has long since passed on, so I cannot ask now.

RayG

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Re: steady to wing or shot?

Post by BigShooter » Wed May 05, 2010 9:06 am

Slistoe,

I think if there is any confusion it is in the definition of a term we use like "steady". As commonly used, the word steady is usually accompanied by 'til when? Examples are: steady until flush, steady until wing, steady until shot, steady until kill. A dog cannot & will not stand still in one spot for the rest of it's life. So if someone says they like "steady" that means nothing at all to me without the "until" part.

To others:

Staunch is not to be confused with steady either. Staunch is a dog "intense" on point.

With a completely broke dog we also have "stop to flush". This happens when the dog stops running and points at the sound or sight of a wild flushing bird. If the dog bumped the bird and then stops in my book that doesn't count as a stop to flush.

For individuals with questions about what terms mean here is at least one source I googled up for you: http://brittanys.com/Brittany_training_terminology.htm
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Re: steady to wing or shot?

Post by slistoe » Wed May 05, 2010 6:27 pm

In the absence of a qualifier steady means steady. Just as sit means sit. It was used in that context by nearly every poster in this thread from both sides of the pond.

You know there is the story about the dog bones with the bird bones in front right?

The real life story is I had a dog that was taking training too literally and losing independence in the field. I thought maybe I could wait her out so when she was standing in the field I left. I could see her a quarter of a mile away from the house. A couple of hours later she got tired and sat. A few more hours and it got dark. A couple more hours of darkness and my wife made me go out and get her. As I approached she regained her intense standing posture. A quiet "allright" and she flat out lined it to the front. I called her around, gave her a "good girl" and we went home for supper.
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Re: steady to wing or shot?

Post by birddogger » Wed May 05, 2010 6:33 pm

Staunch is not to be confused with steady either. Staunch is a dog "intense" on point.


Good point. I here these terms being misused pretty often.

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Re: steady to wing or shot?

Post by bossman » Wed May 05, 2010 7:19 pm

Just got my May/June issue of Pointing Dog Journal. You may find George Hickox piece...A Vote for Steady to Wing and Shot...interesting

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Re: steady to wing or shot?

Post by BigShooter » Wed May 05, 2010 8:11 pm

slistoe wrote:In the absence of a qualifier steady means steady. Just as sit means sit. It was used in that context by nearly every poster in this thread from both sides of the pond.
Scott,

I knew what people were trying to say. In the absence of a qualifier, steady to you and some others means firm in position to infinity.

People newer to dogs & new to the forum are somewhat entitled to use the common dictionary definition for terms like steady. Steady defined as “securely in position”, “not shaky” or “firm in position”. Also the words completely or totally defined as “absolutely”. So when a poster says they want “completely steady”, using dictionary definitions they want an “absolutely not shaky” dog. The opposites would be unsteady or partially. The poster though was asking about the qualifiers as you call them, "steady until when?"

Just because you or I may use some abbreviated version of the full term doesn't make it proper nor easily understood by others. Look at that web site reference full of definitions and you'll find a fully qualified individual that also does not express steady the way some have in this thread. I do understand that when you use the term steady you mean forever unless released by the handler. I do not believe every forum reader, absent of this additional information would have been able to make that inference initially. They can now. :P
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Re: steady to wing or shot?

Post by slistoe » Wed May 05, 2010 10:31 pm

And all is right in the world. :D

I did get a pretty good chuckle while looking through that site you linked - did you see he even has terms trademarked? Bodo should have thought of that in 1969. :lol: Then we would all be bound to use the term "Steadiness Total"
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Re: steady to wing or shot?

Post by BigShooter » Thu May 06, 2010 7:01 am

Nice illustration. Too bad it's not in motion showing the oft wounded bird slinking off at 30 miles per hour ... (48 Km/hour, for our cousins north of the border). :lol:

Cheers!
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Re: steady to wing or shot?

Post by Trekmoor » Fri May 07, 2010 11:24 am

I have found this thread fascinating. The expectations among so many U.S. hunters and pointing dog people are pretty different to mine ! I do not want the following to sound as if I consider it the only correct way of working for I do not. I offer it only as a matter of interest to some of you - perhaps ? :lol:

I have worked and trialed Brits and G.S.P. 's here in Scotland for nearly 30 years. Much of my work ,in fact most of it , is what we call "picking- up." That is done by folk like me at all big shoots here. Those are shoots where the "guns" shoot up to maybe 6 to 800 pheasant and or partridge in a day. Well back from the guns , very often among thick woodlands, I will be watching every bird in my section (there will be several Pickers- up) fall if I can and listening for birds falling through the trees too. I also watch my more experienced dogs - very often they "tell" me that a bird is pricked that I'd thought was untouched. I can then send that dog to make the retrieve.

I send my dogs for these fallen birds ( I normally work 2 -3 dogs at a time.) My dogs all point game and they often encounter unshot birds while out of my view searching the woods for dead and running birds. Sometimes they point those unshot birds and I know nothing about it. The dogs have to teach themselves to break their own point , probably flush the bird and then continue with their hunt for dead birds and runners. The experienced dogs take less and less time before flushing an unshot bird - just a few seconds.

These same experienced dogs were the ones I trialed - maybe the following day ! I won trials too with those dogs ..........the dogs themselves are capable, given the chance, of learning and of adjusting to differing situations. My dogs would flush at once one day then hold the point the very next day for the trial judges. I take no credit at all for this - the dogs taught themselves what worked best in certain situations.............or rather they taught themselves when to flush and when not to.


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Re: steady to wing or shot?

Post by birddogger » Fri May 07, 2010 1:46 pm

Rich Heaton wrote:
RayGubernat wrote:I would teach the dog to take one single step, on command, while on point.

Here's my logic. I come up on the dog on point. it is pointing into a thicket or tangle of nasty stuff. Tof lush the bird, i have to go into the thick stuff ahead of the dog and when the bird(s) do get up, i often have no shot because i am compeltely out of position.

Now, if I can pick a shooting lane, get my feet set and command the dog to "ADVANCE" and the dog takes one single step and then freezes again, on point, if the dog's forward motion puts the bird to flight, i, very often will have a good shot. If the dog does not flush, i still have the option of walking the dog into the bird...one step at a time
Was that meant to be funny,,,,,,
I don't think this is a funny concept at all. I think this would be great for wild bird hunting and fascinating to watch. I also actually like for my dogs to relocate themselves or catwalk on moving birds. I have one dog that will do almost a belly crawl on a moving bird until he can pin it down. I am sure the field trialers who never hunt would look down on this, but for me it is pretty to watch and when they lock up, I know where the bird is. Just depends on what you want your dog to do.

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Re: steady to wing or shot?

Post by SCKWEST » Fri May 07, 2010 5:10 pm

Charlie you make a great point! First of all there is a huge difference between hunting and field trialing. I understand that many people use the same dog for both so you must demand your dogs remain staunch. I prefer a staunch dog myself that stays steady until I tell him to relocate. However, in wild bird hunting that may well be to late. There is an art to watching a dog work wild game that is really good at it, they know how to relocate and pin birds down without bumping them. Has anyone ever read any of Ben Williams books on dog training? Ben basically believes and practices exactly what you said Charlie and I agree that it's every bit as difficult for a dog to do this very well as it is to be steady. I get aggravated at how people try to pawn dogs off that are good at this as simply "meat dogs". This is no more different than when someone tries to call the broke dog merely a "robot". Bottomline is that all a dog must do is satisfy it's owner and it seems that to many people often worry about trying to put their standards on others dogs.

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birddogger
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Re: steady to wing or shot?

Post by birddogger » Fri May 07, 2010 7:30 pm

Well said Scott. I have not seen any of the books you mentioned, but they sound interesting. I may have to find one.

Charlie
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Re: steady to wing or shot?

Post by SCKWEST » Fri May 07, 2010 7:55 pm

Charlie I have a couple of the Ben Williams books. I will be in IL next weekend to attend that Nstra trial with Ron and I will bring a book or two and give them to him for you. Scott

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Re: steady to wing or shot?

Post by birddogger » Fri May 07, 2010 9:59 pm

Thanks,
Charlie
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Re: steady to wing or shot?

Post by Birddogz » Mon May 10, 2010 10:04 pm

You guys are making too much sense. Hunting dogs often find little ways to increase hunting efficiency. Doesn't always follow the FT rule book. :D
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