us open pheasant trials?

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us open pheasant trials?

Post by sjkennels » Mon May 10, 2010 11:08 pm

anyone on here run in the us open pheasant trials? i just got the hunting channel today and i am sitting here watching this trial. you can run a dog with a collar and by the way it looks i could take my dogs out there and do pretty good. since this guy that was just running his gsp just caught 3 pheasants. so i was wondering if any of y'all could tell me a little about these trials. i looked on there website and the closest one looks to be in Nebraska. but im kind of interested in knowing more about this trial. thanks for any info you can give me.
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Re: us open pheasant trials?

Post by birddogger » Tue May 11, 2010 6:02 am

It sounds like you are talking about the BDC trials. I have seen it on TV and they sure wouldn't be for me. The way I understand it, is that you are only scored on the amount of birds in the bag in a specified amount of time. The only thing the dog has to do is hold a point for 3 seconds and I believe make the retrieve. The dog is not scored on obedience, style or anything else that I can see. You would have no need for a broke dog and really wouldn't have to do any training. Like I said, it is about the number of birds bagged in the time limit, and it doesn't matter how they are bagged including the dog catching them.

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Re: us open pheasant trials?

Post by GrayDawg » Tue May 11, 2010 6:23 am

birddogger wrote:It sounds like you are talking about the BDC trials........... The way I understand it, is that you are only scored on the amount of birds in the bag in a specified amount of time. The only thing the dog has to do is hold a point for 3 seconds and I believe make the retrieve. The dog is not scored on obedience, style or anything else that I can see.......... it is about the number of birds bagged in the time limit, and it doesn't matter how they are bagged including the dog catching them.

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If this is truly the case, then this event is a joke.

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Re: us open pheasant trials?

Post by sjkennels » Tue May 11, 2010 8:49 am

it wasn't bdc trials unless that is part of the us open pheasant trails. what it looked liked to me is you have so much time to shoot as many birds as you can. and you are allowed one trap witch is when a dog blows through and catches the bird. you can either compete by yourself or you can do doubles. but i just got that from watching it for 30 min so i don't know how correct i am about everything i have said.
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Re: us open pheasant trials?

Post by southernblues » Tue May 11, 2010 9:04 am


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Re: us open pheasant trials?

Post by bwire » Tue May 11, 2010 10:25 am

I saw the show you are talking about. There is a topic in a different forum about the U.S. Pheasant Open
http://www.ultimatepheasanthunting.com/ ... php?t=4101

This may give you some more information on it.

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Re: us open pheasant trials?

Post by Gundogs/Nebraska » Tue May 11, 2010 12:52 pm

Tournament Hunters and NBDC are sanctioned together I think.

Basic rules are: Singles and/or doubles. Singles you have to shoot 3 birds and doubles you have to shoot 5 birds. (depends on who is putting the event on, they might ad more birds) You have a certain amount of time to bag your birds and in a certain area. If a hunter gets all his birds in time and has time left on the clock, he gets points for every minute left. Also, a hunter only gets a certain amount of shells. 6 singles 12 for doubles (6 per hunter) Points are allowed for every shell left over. Can't go out of bounds to shoot a bird or retrieve it. Pointing division the dog must hold point for 3 seconds, and in flushing the dog must produce the bird not the hunter. You get scored on a 3 second point or a solid flush, you get points for a full retrieve. Once the bird is shot, YOU (the hunter) CAN NOT move other then his pivot foot to take the bird from the dog, if the hunter moves more that his pivot foot, he would only get a partial retrieve.

That is pretty much it all in a nut shell. An event President might change up the rules a bit depending on where it is held at. There are several of these hunts held in several states through out the US. Close to you there is Hastings, NE., Western Kansas the KS state Pheasant Championship is held.

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Re: us open pheasant trials?

Post by romeo212000 » Tue May 11, 2010 1:08 pm

GrayDawg wrote:
birddogger wrote:It sounds like you are talking about the BDC trials........... The way I understand it, is that you are only scored on the amount of birds in the bag in a specified amount of time. The only thing the dog has to do is hold a point for 3 seconds and I believe make the retrieve. The dog is not scored on obedience, style or anything else that I can see.......... it is about the number of birds bagged in the time limit, and it doesn't matter how they are bagged including the dog catching them.

Charlie


If this is truly the case, then this event is a joke.

Rob
It is a joke. Unfortunately it is portrayed as good dog work to less knowledgeable people.

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Re: us open pheasant trials?

Post by Gundogs/Nebraska » Tue May 11, 2010 1:18 pm

romeo212000 wrote:
GrayDawg wrote:
birddogger wrote:It sounds like you are talking about the BDC trials........... The way I understand it, is that you are only scored on the amount of birds in the bag in a specified amount of time. The only thing the dog has to do is hold a point for 3 seconds and I believe make the retrieve. The dog is not scored on obedience, style or anything else that I can see.......... it is about the number of birds bagged in the time limit, and it doesn't matter how they are bagged including the dog catching them.

Charlie


If this is truly the case, then this event is a joke.

Rob
It is a joke. Unfortunately it is portrayed as good dog work to less knowledgeable people.
As for flushers, it is a lot more realistic to a natural hunting situation. But with pointers, I would agree. It doesn't portray very good dog work and/or handling skills between the dog and handler both. A lot of bad habits could come about in this event.
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Re: us open pheasant trials?

Post by Meller » Tue May 11, 2010 3:23 pm

The dog has to retrieve to get the points; also pointing dog can not catch the bird before the flush and shot and not recieve a reduction in points, plus the hunter has to do his part on the shooting (one shell per bird ) or recieve a penality.
You can look on BDC and get the offical rule's.
Except for this being a timed event, it's a lot like actual hunting.

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Re: us open pheasant trials?

Post by Chaingang » Tue May 11, 2010 5:01 pm

You forgot to mention the all out RUNNING with loaded guns...

To be honest this is not anything I would want to be associated with. Two guys in close proximity, running and gunning, shooting at very low flying birds directly over the dogs head. Seems like an accident waiting to happen too me, but to each their own I guess.

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Re: us open pheasant trials?

Post by ezzy333 » Tue May 11, 2010 5:22 pm

Chaingang wrote:You forgot to mention the all out RUNNING with loaded guns...

To be honest this is not anything I would want to be associated with. Two guys in close proximity, running and gunning, shooting at very low flying birds directly over the dogs head. Seems like an accident waiting to happen too me, but to each their own I guess.
Think the rules say absolutely no running. At least that is the way at all I have seen.

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Re: us open pheasant trials?

Post by Meller » Tue May 11, 2010 5:26 pm

Actually running is prohibited, and can lead to disqualifacation, up to the judge!
I'm talking BDC .

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Re: us open pheasant trials?

Post by Chaingang » Tue May 11, 2010 5:37 pm

Meller wrote:Actually running is prohibited, and can lead to disqualifacation, up to the judge!
I'm talking BDC .
I don't think the US open Pheasant is under the jurisdiction of the BDC. There is plenty of running at the Open..

They are governed by NATHA (North American Tournament hunting assoc.) http://www.horseandhunt.com/natha/us_open.html

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Re: us open pheasant trials?

Post by slistoe » Tue May 11, 2010 5:43 pm

Power walking on broken ground is so much safer than running. :roll:

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Re: us open pheasant trials?

Post by Chaingang » Tue May 11, 2010 5:52 pm

The NATHA rules for 2010 allow for "free motion" as they call it. The only walking only classes are Open and Amateur classes.

2009-2010 NATHA RULES. http://horseandhunt.com/pdfs/Rules%202010.pdf

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Re: us open pheasant trials?

Post by birddogger » Tue May 11, 2010 6:43 pm

Meller wrote:The dog has to retrieve to get the points; also pointing dog can not catch the bird before the flush and shot and not recieve a reduction in points, plus the hunter has to do his part on the shooting (one shell per bird ) or recieve a penality.
You can look on BDC and get the offical rule's.
Except for this being a timed event, it's a lot like actual hunting.
Thanks for the clarification. I thoght that I was probably miunderstanding some of it. I havd only seen one or two on tv and everything else has been heresay. I am pretty sure though, about the dog only needing to hold point for 3 seconds. It just doesn't seem to focus much on good dog work or handling. As I said earlier, it wouldn't be for me, but like they say, different strokes for different folks. Apparently this is a different trial than the OP was talking about anyway.

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Re: us open pheasant trials?

Post by birddogger » Tue May 11, 2010 6:48 pm

Meller wrote:Actually running is prohibited, and can lead to disqualifacation, up to the judge!
I'm talking BDC .
I am sure you know what you are talking about, but they were sure doing some running in the couple that I saw.

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Re: us open pheasant trials?

Post by birddog1968 » Tue May 11, 2010 7:18 pm

I was watching the flushing dogs the other week and turned it off in disgust.

Here's a link, watch all the running with guns and flushing pointing dogs :roll:

http://www.thesportsmanchannel.com/prog ... php?ID=296
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Re: us open pheasant trials?

Post by Chaingang » Tue May 11, 2010 8:45 pm

birddogger wrote:
Meller wrote:Actually running is prohibited, and can lead to disqualifacation, up to the judge!
I'm talking BDC .
I am sure you know what you are talking about, but they were sure doing some running in the couple that I saw.

Charlie
Charlie the BDC (Bird dog challenge) and associated with the TV series called "Tournament Hunter" is a separate sanctioning body from NATHA (North American Tournament Hunting Assoc.) which governs the US Open Pheasant Championship. They each have their own set of rules for which NATHA allows running or "Free motion" as they call in in certain classes.

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Re: us open pheasant trials?

Post by birddogger » Tue May 11, 2010 10:17 pm

Chaingang wrote:
birddogger wrote:
Meller wrote:Actually running is prohibited, and can lead to disqualifacation, up to the judge!
I'm talking BDC .
I am sure you know what you are talking about, but they were sure doing some running in the couple that I saw.

Charlie
Charlie the BDC (Bird dog challenge) and associated with the TV series called "Tournament Hunter" is a separate sanctioning body from NATHA (North American Tournament Hunting Assoc.) which governs the US Open Pheasant Championship. They each have their own set of rules for which NATHA allows running or "Free motion" as they call in in certain classes.
Ya, apparently I am confusing something else with the BDC.

Sorry,
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Re: us open pheasant trials?

Post by sjkennels » Wed May 12, 2010 1:50 am

i looked at the forum that was posted above. and someone else was talking about running i guess the rules are you can not have both feet off the ground. i gotta say that was the fastest walking i have ever seen. in the pointing dog stakes they said on the show they are allowed one trap/catch of the bird. i also looked up the other link above about the bdc and it looks almost exactly the same but this on was called us open pheasant championship they didnt say anything about bdc on the show. just basing this off of what i seen i guess i was just expecting more well trained dogs and better handling with it being a championship. but if there was either one of those close by me i wouldn't mind running in one to see what its really all about. only thing that would get me is the retrieving part since neither of my dogs retrieve yet.
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Re: us open pheasant trials?

Post by tommyboy72 » Wed May 12, 2010 11:00 am

Just for clarification the flushing dogs are allowed to catch birds but not the pointing dogs. These events are for dogs that hunt and hunters who hunt not trialers who just want a pretty dog that can run 12 miles in 30 minutes. Birds are planted and dogs are matched against each other in a tournament bracket style so even if you are the 6th fastest team overall as long as you beat the time of the team you are matched against you can still advance on. I like this type of trial and would like to participate unfortunately most of these events take place too far away from me for it to be feasible to drive to them. Basically whoever can bag the most number of birds out of a 5 bird setting in 15 minutes (singles) or 6 bird setting in 20 minutes (doubles) advances on. It takes fast moving dogs with good noses working medium sized fields. I enjoy watching it on tv but only wish I could participate.

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Re: us open pheasant trials?

Post by jimbo&rooster » Wed May 12, 2010 12:28 pm

I actually went to one of these events at the local preserve that I go to. it wasnt nearly as bad as what you see on TV. I never saw any of the competitors running to their dogs. What I did see was some decent dog work. of course these weren't big running field trial dogs, they were just hunting dogs being handled by hunters. I watched both the pointing and the flushing classes and the only thing that i saw that i didnt like was the poor quality of birds being used.
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Re: us open pheasant trials?

Post by BoJack » Wed May 12, 2010 1:05 pm

A 15-20 min Speed Tournament with boundries.Definately not what I call a yardstick for measuring good hunting dogs or trial dogs.I'm surprised there isn't more dogs shot in the Rush and low flying birds.You can have it.
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Re: us open pheasant trials?

Post by birddog1968 » Wed May 12, 2010 1:30 pm

I bet if you saw the pedigrees of those close working hunting dogs you'd find "big running" trial dogs in there.

I also have to agree with bojack. when I hear 4 birds in under 5 minutes I have to question
the "good dog work" statement. A Pomeranian could probably find birds planted that close together...........
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Re: us open pheasant trials?

Post by tommyboy72 » Wed May 12, 2010 3:56 pm

From what I have seen on tv the fields they hunt are pretty small in comparison to what I hunt. They usually range from about 25 to 45 acres. Some of those dogs have trial dogs in their pedigrees but one fella on there had a free GSP he had picked up out of the newspaper he won a national championship and points championship with. I don't think this is a proving ground for big running field trial horseback dogs or dogs who point with a high head and tail and look pretty while they are running. These are mostly just hunting dogs but many of the people who run in these tournaments are professional trainers mostly from the upper midwest and northern states from what I gather from watching about 3 years worth of episodes on the Outdoor Network. Different strokes for different folks I guess. I personally really enjoy watching these tournaments on tv and just live too far away or I would participate in some of these events myself.

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Re: us open pheasant trials?

Post by to the point » Wed May 12, 2010 5:56 pm

Check out United Field Trial Association

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Re: us open pheasant trials?

Post by topher40 » Wed May 12, 2010 7:05 pm

tommyboy72 wrote: These are mostly just hunting dogs but many of the people who run in these tournaments are professional trainers mostly from the upper midwest and northern states from what I gather from watching about 3 years worth of episodes on the Outdoor Network.

If these guys are "professionals" then I must be Jesus Christ!!
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Re: us open pheasant trials?

Post by birddog1968 » Wed May 12, 2010 7:15 pm

to the point wrote:Check out United Field Trial Association
7 acre fields , Wow ! :roll:
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Re: us open pheasant trials?

Post by Neil » Wed May 12, 2010 7:50 pm

This is to hunting like a call girl is to dating.

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Re: us open pheasant trials?

Post by tommyboy72 » Wed May 12, 2010 10:21 pm

Now topher remember everyone has their own opinions on what pro trainers are. Although I am not a pro I prefer to let a dog figure out their hunting style themselves and just give them a pointing in the right direction when necessary and to some I probably suck as a trainer because I am not making them do everything the way I would do it if I were a dog. I have seen people write on this website about their expectations of what a pro should do for a dog that seemed just ridiculous to me but that is what those people expected. Mostly east coast fellas. :D

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Re: us open pheasant trials?

Post by Chief_dog » Thu May 13, 2010 1:41 am

Tommy, You'd be surprised how many of those dogs are specialists that don't hunt wild birds. I know of several very competitive tournament dogs in our area that stay home when their owners go wild bird hunting.

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Re: us open pheasant trials?

Post by gunner » Thu May 13, 2010 5:10 am

more comments on these events from the Shooting Sportsman bulletin board...

http://bbs.shootingsportsman.com/viewto ... =3&t=42741

and even more comment from the Upland Journal bulletin board....

http://www.uplandjournal.com/cgi-bin/ik ... =2;t=57314

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Re: us open pheasant trials?

Post by Greg Jennings » Thu May 13, 2010 7:06 am

I'd prefer it if people would lay off general harsh derogatory comments about other people's form of testing/trialing/whatever.

"It isn't for me" would suffice nicely.

BTW, the form of trailing discussed isn't for me. :wink:

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Re: us open pheasant trials?

Post by ezzy333 » Thu May 13, 2010 7:20 am

Greg Jennings wrote:I'd prefer it if people would lay off general derogatory comments about other people's form of testing/trialing/whatever.

"It isn't for me" would suffice nicely.

BTW, the form of trailing discussed isn't for me. :wink:

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Good post! I am sure there are just as many people who think that seeing how fast or how far a dog will run have the same opinion of our sport as some of you are expressing about this. All of them are just games we play with our dogs so we have to make up rules so someone can judge them. Only thing worse may be just letting your dog sit in a kennel all of the time rather than getting them out and doing something with them. Hope we all can support each other and pick the ones you like and let the other people pick theirs.

By the way, I don't care for it either till they get the time out of it. and then it might be good.

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Re: us open pheasant trials?

Post by Wagonmaster » Thu May 13, 2010 9:34 am

I agree with Greg completely.

I like to fly fish. Lots of flyfisherman look with disdain on bait fishermen, "worm dunkers" who would dip a nightcrawler in a trout stream. When I was a kid, dunking worms was all I knew how to do. It worked pretty good too. These days I prefer not to dunk worms, I prefer to fly fish. In fact, rather than fish in the little river I used to frequent in northern Minnesota, I like to go to the Bahamas and look for bonefish. But I do not treat the farm kid I meet along the river bank as a lesser form of humanity. That was me once.

So no, I don't prefer that type of competition. But I don't begrudge it either.

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Re: us open pheasant trials?

Post by sjkennels » Thu May 13, 2010 10:27 am

topher40 wrote:
tommyboy72 wrote: These are mostly just hunting dogs but many of the people who run in these tournaments are professional trainers mostly from the upper midwest and northern states from what I gather from watching about 3 years worth of episodes on the Outdoor Network.

If these guys are "professionals" then I must be Jesus Christ!!
:lol:
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Re: us open pheasant trials?

Post by Greg Jennings » Thu May 13, 2010 10:32 am

What is a professional?

I don't think of bass fishing as a profession, but there are some people that make a living doing it (something that would normally be practiced as a hobby). That's one definition of "professional".

Another is someone that has specialized advanced education and belongs to a professional organization that enforces a code of ethics/conduct.

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Re: us open pheasant trials?

Post by GrayDawg » Thu May 13, 2010 10:47 am

Okay........... I just watched a whole bunch of BDC videos up on youtube.

The flushing dogs worked very well.
The pointing dogs didn't work up to my expectations (hunted too close, some weren't very steady).
The gunners all seemed to be very good shots.

The pace of the BDC would lead me to believe that this isn't my cup of tea.......

'nuff said,

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Re: us open pheasant trials?

Post by NM quail hunter » Thu May 13, 2010 11:02 am

It looks to me like these folks are really enjoying thier dogs and the competition in thier game. In my opinion thats all that matters. Not everyone can afford or even wants to be a top tier hb AA field trialer. Some people just want to a good hunting companion and thats fine. I don't understand why people have to belittle something that they are not interested in. Are these field trial caliber dogs? Maybe but proably not, but they are making people happy and in my opinion thats what makes a great dog.

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Re: us open pheasant trials?

Post by birddog1968 » Thu May 13, 2010 6:32 pm

NM quail hunter wrote:It looks to me like these folks are really enjoying thier dogs and the competition in thier game. In my opinion thats all that matters. Not everyone can afford or even wants to be a top tier hb AA field trialer. Some people just want to a good hunting companion and thats fine. I don't understand why people have to belittle something that they are not interested in. Are these field trial caliber dogs? Maybe but proably not, but they are making people happy and in my opinion thats what makes a great dog.

For one , I think it sends the wrong message to younger people who might think they are supposed to run with the gun and "speed hunt" ......Be fine once a kid knows what hunting is all about but if thats your only
point of reference , well then............
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Re: us open pheasant trials?

Post by birddogger » Thu May 13, 2010 6:56 pm

Like I said it is not for me, but it all depends on what you want your dog to do and what game you want to play. As I posted on another thread, we have enough enemies out there without beating up on ourselves. :wink:

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birddog1968
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Re: us open pheasant trials?

Post by birddog1968 » Thu May 13, 2010 6:59 pm

I don't totally disagree Charlie, but.......

If we don't police ourselves who will? Healthy debate is a good thing.
The second kick from a mule is of very little educational value - from Wing and Shot.

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Re: us open pheasant trials?

Post by BigShooter » Thu May 13, 2010 7:06 pm

birddog1968 wrote: For one , I think it sends the wrong message to younger people who might think they are supposed to run with the gun and "speed hunt" ......Be fine once a kid knows what hunting is all about but if thats your only
point of reference , well then............
Fortunately all States I'm aware of require gun safety instruction as well as requiring the hunter's safety certificate number prior to obtaining a license.

The idea of running (or moving fast) with a loaded gun makes me nervous anyway because one son and three of his buddies went hunting near home one day and had an incident. My son lent my Remington 11-87 to one of his friends who was trained in gun safety and had hunted before. The friend fell and the shotgun discharged. Fortunately the boy had enough training that the weapon was pointed in a safe direction. Supposedly the safety was on when the gun discharged. As many of you know some safeties just block the trigger but don't lock the firing pin itself. Obviously we carry a heightened awareness of how easily an accidental discharge can occur.

Although it's not for me I can understand how lots of folks would have fun with an activity like this with a timer.
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Re: us open pheasant trials?

Post by ezzy333 » Thu May 13, 2010 7:28 pm

birddog1968 wrote:
NM quail hunter wrote:It looks to me like these folks are really enjoying thier dogs and the competition in thier game. In my opinion thats all that matters. Not everyone can afford or even wants to be a top tier hb AA field trialer. Some people just want to a good hunting companion and thats fine. I don't understand why people have to belittle something that they are not interested in. Are these field trial caliber dogs? Maybe but proably not, but they are making people happy and in my opinion thats what makes a great dog.

For one , I think it sends the wrong message to younger people who might think they are supposed to run with the gun and "speed hunt" ......Be fine once a kid knows what hunting is all about but if thats your only
point of reference , well then............
I think we are in trouble if we are relying on television to teach our kids how to hunt. That always was and I think still is the parents responsibility. It's nothing more than a game grown people play with their dogs and each of us has the choice of what if any ganes we like to participate in.

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birddog1968
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Re: us open pheasant trials?

Post by birddog1968 » Thu May 13, 2010 7:56 pm

What you state is absolutely true Ezzy....but our kids (to their detriment) are taught by TV.....
I work for a large hunt club....I see the young fellas here (teenagers) that are all operating
on what they see on TV (Team drop em, Team kill shot.....) they come up with all kinds of inappropriate
stuff and are driven to it by what they see on TV, Youtube and the like. Their behavior in the field (bad behavior) is very evident, To our favorite pastimes detriment.

If you were here to witness it you would ask, where do you youngins get this stuff? and they would answer TV ,cable, internet. The older members try to school them but nothing is as "cool" as what they witness on
TV and the like.
The second kick from a mule is of very little educational value - from Wing and Shot.

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Re: us open pheasant trials?

Post by ezzy333 » Thu May 13, 2010 8:42 pm

birddog1968 wrote:What you state is absolutely true Ezzy....but our kids (to their detriment) are taught by TV.....
I work for a large hunt club....I see the young fellas here (teenagers) that are all operating
on what they see on TV (Team drop em, Team kill shot.....) they come up with all kinds of inappropriate
stuff and are driven to it by what they see on TV, Youtube and the like. Their behavior in the field (bad behavior) is very evident, To our favorite pastimes detriment.

If you were here to witness it you would ask, where do you youngins get this stuff? and they would answer TV ,cable, internet. The older members try to school them but nothing is as "cool" as what they witness on
TV and the like.
I am absolutely sure what you say is right. But I also think that is the kind of stufff grown kids have always done when several get together. Bet they all know how to hunt but they still like to impress everyone with some foolish stunts.''
You may be right but I'm not really convinced. We had 60 year old guys shooting pheasants on the pen 50 years ago because they didn't want to walk. My biggest concern with hunting clubs is the fact that many of the members do not want to hunt but rather just want to shoot something and age makes little difference. Things like tower shoots are real popular and the European style drives and I find little sporting or safe about that either.

JMO
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Re: us open pheasant trials?

Post by tommyboy72 » Thu May 13, 2010 9:29 pm

Well put Ezzy. I hunt pheasant with a group out here in Oklahoma ONCE per year and that is opening day because friends of mine that host the group ask me to help out. I have never witnessed a youngster acting in an unsafe manner but I have been peppered, had my vehicle peppered, had shot birds crash into my vehicle, and had my dogs shot close to all by older hunters who should know better but only want to shoot something.

For the record I hunt by myself or with a couple members of this forum or one other close friend the rest of the year. The block and drive is not for me. I prefer to get out and let the dogs work and watch other peoples' dogs work more than shooting something.

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Re: us open pheasant trials?

Post by BigShooter » Thu May 13, 2010 10:20 pm

tommyboy72 wrote: For the record I hunt by myself or with a couple members of this forum or one other close friend the rest of the year. The block and drive is not for me. I prefer to get out and let the dogs work and watch other peoples' dogs work more than shooting something.
The block & drive is not for us either. Although we all stay together at night we split up into parties of two to four normally & all head out to different spots each day. Sometimes a couple of the groups will get together to hunt a very large area but we never set up one of those SD block & drives with 15-30 hunters. Too much risk & too little sport, besides you need a lab or springer for that kind of shoot, not a good pointing dog! :P
Mark

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