us open pheasant trials?

[ezzy333]

For the record I hunt by myself or with a couple members of this forum or one other close friend the rest of the year. The block and drive is not for me. I prefer to get out and let the dogs work and watch other peoples' dogs work more than shooting something.

The block & drive is not for us either. Although we all stay together at night we split up into parties of two to four normally & all head out to different spots each day. Sometimes a couple of the groups will get together to hunt a very large area but we never set up one of those SD block & drives with 15-30 hunters. Too much risk & too little sport, besides you need a lab or springer for that kind of shoot, not a good pointing dog!

My sentiments exactly. I am there for enjoyment and not because I am hungry.

Ezzy

[birddog1968]

We are all in full agreement on what we like.....I guess maybe I believe the shows influence many people and I may be overly sensitive to it because of what I see here in a large hunt club setting.


Here's to classy good dogs pinning wiley roosters in big country !!!

[BigShooter]

... and here's to roaming how ever far we need to, to get into our bird of choice!

[Ron R]

but our kids (to their detriment) are taught by TV.....
I work for a large hunt club....I see the young fellas here (teenagers) that are all operating
on what they see on TV (Team drop em, Team kill shot.....)

In defence of the 100+ youths here in Southern IL that participated in our clubs youth hunt this year. Every single one listened to instructions and conducted themselves like little adults. Very safe shooters and I was proud of every one. You just can't beat the huge smiles on the faces of those proud little hunters as they walk around with those long rooster tails sticking out of there vests. I'm really looking forward to it next year.

Another thing, every single one of those kids were safer than a few adults that I had the misfortune to guide for last year. SCARY :roll:

All we can do is try to positively influence the young hunters every chance we get.

Ron

[BigShooter]

It's all about self-control regardless of age. If you have a dog, flusher or pointer that moves with the flush, at some point you will be faced with a situation where the dog will be peppered if someone pulls the trigger. Unlike deer hunting on public land you can and should control who you & your dog are hunting with.

[Ron R]

you can and should control who you & your dog are hunting with

Not possible when you guide hunts but it is possible to not let it happen twice with the same individuals. That said, I agree with your opinion.

Ron

[BigShooter]

Agreed. You're in a tough spot with some clients whether you guide hunting or fishing aboard a boat. I won't guide a hunt for the reasons discussed but I will guide fishing on the Great Lakes. No weapons are allowed on board (a hole in the hull wouldn't be good) & I can always keel haul someone if they are non-compliant.

[tommyboy72]

Ok, so I watched part 2 of this last night on the Sportsmans Channel and it was not like the BDC tournaments I watch on Outdoor Channel. In BDC tournaments I watch there is no running allowed like I saw last night, the guys will walk fast but not run or jog like I witnessed last night, there are no is no trapping of birds by the pointing dogs like I witnessed last night, there is not throwing the birds up in the air and shooting them like I saw last night, there is kicking of birds to get them to fly but the only time I witnessed that it was chuckars who were so rain soaked in Iowa last year the first runs of the morning had trouble flying with wet wings, the fields were alot bigger than what I saw last night on the pheasant trials and the dogs were a lot better working than the dogs I saw last night on the US Open championships. I am not sure if the BDC sponsors this or not but there definitely needs to be some rule changes. I would like to compete in a timed trial format like this but I was digusted at some of what I saw. I did not see last weeks episode so I was wondering what everyone was in such an uproar about but after watching this week's episode I see. I like the BDC format with the timed trial and tournament match dog style but that is not what I saw when watching the US open. I am sorry for defending this program now after watching it.

[BigShooter]

Hey Tommy,

"You're just a good ol' boy, never meaning no harm". We'll use that ol' Dukes of Hazzard intro for your theme song.

[birddog1968]

Seems to me at this point Nstra is a much better alternative.

[romeo212000]

This format isn't even in the same league as NSTRA. NSTRA judges quality of bird work, retrieves, handling, obedience, and ground cover. Those formats are about nothing but putting birds in the bag as quickly as possible. Someone please explain to me how this formart could possibly advance the breed when none of the above qualities are judged.

[birddog1968]

That was exactly my point Romeo......

[Greg Jennings]

Ooopsss. You beat me to that.

[tommyboy72]

Don't get me wrong I liked the format and it seemed to be a BDC type format but other rules had been changed and modified. I didn't care for it much.

In my personal opinion, a doggie game does not always have to be about the advancement of the breed it could just be something you do during the off season to keep your dog out and hunting and something that is fun for both the dog and the handler to participate in but their rules were a bit ridiculous and semi dangerous. Not a good example for younger hunters or older ones for that matter.

[Boomer]

And lets not forget about the pay outs at some of these dog events......When you start hitting $10,000 to win a singles event I really wouldnt say the dogs entered are sub standard.....

[birddog1968]

And lets not forget about the pay outs at some of these dog events......When you start hitting $10,000 to win a singles event I really wouldnt say the dogs entered are sub standard.....

What about a purse says excellent dogs are entered?

[Boomer]

With entery fees running between 300 to 500 bucks you probley wont see many dogs that cant hold a point or make a reteive.

[birddog1968]

With entery fees running between 300 to 500 bucks you probley wont see many dogs that cant hold a point or make a reteive.

The footage Ive seen leaves that in question.....and holding a point and making a retrieve
do not a great dog make.

I wish there was more footage on youtube....check this promo out again if you already havent......check out half way thru pointers flushing. I won't even start on the running with firearms.....

Keep in mind these dogs are the cream of the natha crop :roll:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8kKUEEuIAlQ

[romeo212000]

With entery fees running between 300 to 500 bucks you probley wont see many dogs that cant hold a point or make a reteive.

The footage Ive seen leaves that in question.....and holding a point and making a retrieve
do not a great dog make.

Ditto.

The footage I have seen of the "top dogs" at these national trials displays dog work that is average at best and much is flirting with downright poor. I understand different people have different standards for their dogs and the important thing is that people enjoy their dogs. However, I shake my head in disgust at what the commentator refers to as good bird work. The size of the purse says more about the humans involvement in the game than the quality of the dogs.

As for these so called pros, if what I am seeing is their standard for a finished dog allows them to be called pros, then I would like to be referred to as Derek Jeter since I once played little league.

[birddog1968]

Check out the rules- http://horseandhunt.com/pdfs/Rules%202010.pdf

[birddogger]

As for these so called pros, if what I am seeing is their standard for a finished dog allows them to be called pros, then I would like to be referred to as Derek Jeter since I once played little league.

I have to agree with this.

Charlie

[jimbo&rooster]

ok..... so I know I defended this format earlier in the discussion but I just watched the actual show in question and this is ridiculous. I just saw a handler call his dog over and whoa it because he had seen a bird the dog had run past! what a joke! this was nothing like the local event I had watched.
not to big to admit im wrong
Jim

[Mountaineer]

It would be a perfect event for a Nike ad.

It would be an even better event for an anti-hunter to use the footage to make a point...inaccurate and skewed as that point might be.

Hunters and hunting are as threatened from in-house almost as much as they are threatened from outside.
We ignore or rationalize the bad actors among us to our loss.

[SCKWEST]

I watched this show Thur. and I must say that it was the worst dog work I have ever seen. I watched the pointing dogs and some of them literlly never came to a complete stop. The dogs would get birdy and slow down to a creep until they either flushed the bird or their owner flushed. It also was a poor representative of the game as these were the worst flying birds I've seen. More often than not the handlers had to reach down and grab the bird and throw it in the air then shoot it. Tell me those peta people wouldn't love to get hold of that! I have always thought that in any type of competitive format you would expect something more out of the dogs, you would atleast think that the pointing dogs would be staunch. Overall i would have to rate this show and its format as poor. sckwest

[tommyboy72]

If you get a chance watch the BDC season when it comes out on the Outdoor Channel, usually in January or February. Better flying birds and better dog work but still a timed format. I like it a lot better and believe it to be more representative of this type of format. What is airing now just disgusts me and I like the timed format and am a proponent of it provided it shows good dog, handler and bird work along with good shooting and retrieving.

[birddogger]

I watched this show Thur. and I must say that it was the worst dog work I have ever seen. I watched the pointing dogs and some of them literlly never came to a complete stop. The dogs would get birdy and slow down to a creep until they either flushed the bird or their owner flushed. It also was a poor representative of the game as these were the worst flying birds I've seen. More often than not the handlers had to reach down and grab the bird and throw it in the air then shoot it. Tell me those peta people wouldn't love to get hold of that! I have always thought that in any type of competitive format you would expect something more out of the dogs, you would atleast think that the pointing dogs would be staunch. Overall i would have to rate this show and its format as poor. sckwest

Excellent post!!! This is what I have seen and I must have confused it with the BDC. I am still confused with what the BDC is all about, even after reading the rules.

Charlie

[slistoe]

The BDC is about a race for bagging birds the fastest.

[birddogger]

The BDC is about a race for bagging birds the fastest.

That is what I thought.

Charlie

[tommyboy72]

Yep it's a race which is much better than a beauty contest based on how good a dog looks while it points. :roll:

[romeo212000]

Yep it's a race which is much better than a beauty contest based on how good a dog looks while it points. :roll:

How is it possibly better? A race does absolutely nothing to prove anything about the qualities of a dog. This type of format does not judge quality of work, training, handling, style or intelligence. Or in other words, the types of qualities responsible breeders strive to push in further generations seperating average dogs from true quality dogs. The same qualities Bob Wehle strived to instill in his line of pointers you are so fond of and hunt with today. There are a number of other formats which take these characterstics into account in their judgement of a qaulity dog. Not just how pretty a dog is on point. This format proves nothing about the quality of a dog and what it may produce.

To say a race is better than any format which takes these qualities into consideration in its judgement of a quality dog is the most asinine thing I have ever heard. :roll:

That was not an attack on you personally, but your ignorance is reflected in your statement. The dog work I see in these types of trials including the BDC falls under subpar for me. I personally would expect far more out of a trained dog in my kennel or they wouldn't be in my kennel, even as just a hunting dog.

[birddog1968]

Here's some vid of the flushing pointing dogs on BDC http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2NH-Yi_TLdc

Can you say road, flag , flush, chomp


I see little to no difference between us open Phez Championship and BDC......

[romeo212000]

Here's some vid of the flushing pointing dogs on BDC http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2NH-Yi_TLdc

Can you say road, flag , flush, chomp


I see little to no difference between us open Phez Championship and BDC......

Yep, pretty much the same thing. Not broke, moving, creeping, roading. No quality being judged whatsoever. Also, you will hear the commentators say this dog has a lot of championship points so this would be considered an upper level dog in this venue. This video makes my point.

[birddog1968]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zEBkoR-w5Xc another.....

"Dog hasn't slowed down, been a long run" 13 minutes

[tommyboy72]

As for my ignorance there is way more to it than just field trials.

As for the beauty contests you guys run I could care less if my dogs tail is at 12 o clock, I could give a "bleep" less if my dogs head is held high in the air scenting birds from 50 yards away that I actually have to walk a big circle and stomp the ground to find myself. I don't care if my dog always runs to the front, I don't care if my dog runs with a snappy little gait and is constantly wagging their tail. I could care less if my dog relocates on their own or creeps.

What I do care about is does the dog have the bird locked up? Is my dog pointing right at the bird within about a 5-10 yard radius looking in the direction of the bird so I don't have to stomp out the ground and find the bird for myself, after all that is why I have a darn dog in the first place. I don't care what they look like while they are looking for birds as long as they are finding them. I don't care if my dog doubles back or hunts off to the side because a lot of times pheasant and blue quail will not be directly in front of you, that is why it is called bird hunting and not walking a straight line and finding birds. I prefer that my dog relocates and creeps on moving birds to keep the bird from walking out in front of them and losing their original point. I also prefer that when I shoot a bird whether it be quail or pheasant the dog breaks rather than being steady to wing and shot so I don't have to make my dog spend another 5 minutes looking through waist deep CRP or yucca or mesquite brush that makes a quail almost invisible for a dead bird.

I also no longer own Elhew dogs because they were not quite what I wanted. I now have Miller and Fiddler dogs and one pup left over from breeding my Miller/Fiddler female to my Elhew male.

The type of behavior you guys expect from your dogs is your personal preference and it may work on pen raised birds, pigeons, eastern pheasant and maybe even on bobwhite quail but it wouldn't work on scalies or wild pheasant out here because the birds would be gone before you allowed your dog to relocate 15 minutes after you stomped out the 50 yard radius of the area you thought your high headed dog was pointing toward. Sorry guys no offense toward you or your dogs just differing opinions I guess. Many of the dogs they use on their in my personal experience just by watching the events on tv look like wild bird hunting dogs not trial dogs.

To top off much of my rant here as well, isn't much of what your dogs judged on substance and quality wise subject to a judges personal preference as well? One mans trash is another mans treasure if you get my drift.

[SCKWEST]

The bird dog challenge is similar in rules to the us pheasant ch. However, the dog must actually establish a point and hold it for 3seconds to get credit for the point. The handlers are also not aloud to run, you may walk fast, but no running LOL. I own a couple seasons of the bdc and the dog work is of a higher quality than in the us pheasant ch series. However, as I stated in my earlier post i believe that in competition we should be expecting a higher standard of some sort. I see your point tommy that it's not a race or a beauty contest and is much more formatted to the avg joe hunter(which i'm a proud member of that club), but I still expect my dogs to be staunch. I think when a dog establishes point he should hold that point and I don't like it when I am kicking up a bird and my dog has moved and is right there at the handlers feet trying to flush the bird too. Charlie I think Ron let you borrow a couple of them dvds of the bdc when he had them if I remember correctly. I kind of like NSTRA and the United Bird Hunters seem to have a nice format that is kind of a cross between NSTRA and the NBHA which the birds are shot and must be retrieved, but run on a walking field trial field instead of just an open field. I plan on experimenting with several venues this fall from walking trials to NSTRA. I wouldn't mind doing a bdc, but their entry fee is quite a bit higher than the others. Goodluck, sckwest

[Mountaineer]

.... One mans trash is another mans treasure if you get my drift.

Certainly true, as a general statement.

I prefer my setters to be under a pheasant, or grouse for that matter, when it drops as well....going on 46 years of birdhunting indicates that is a good thing...to me.
Relocation is perfectly fine and indicates the dog is fully engaged in locking said bird down...to me...as all birds I hunt can move under a point, including grouse and woodcock. They often stop and hold when cover, from their perspective, indicates that they should...or should not.

But I can not for the life of me see how that pheasant "competition", amongst fleet-footed nimrods, can do anything but instill bad habits in old Rover.
The yelling, the frustration that all dogs will pick up on, the yanking of birds from dog's mouths, etc. all go toward making that event unrepresentative of anything remotely connected with my idea of a day afield and can, indeed, lead to problems with a dog.
A pat on the head at the end for the cameras seems a poor payoff.

The unsafe activity of scampering about as if the hunter has folks starving back home or the parking meter is running low is also foolishness in the extreme.

I can not also, for the life of me, see that that competition and many others, perhaps all, are little more than ego-boosters and time-spenders.
Both being any individual choice but a choice that often places the dog far down the list of benefits...as it does in the competition noted.

*whoever supplies those pheasants should be ashamed of the poor quaility of the birds delivered.
But, perhaps, there will soon be a sub-award for best pheasant tosser.

[micha]

I live in Montana and maybe a little older than some of you fellas. I have hunted wild birds all life sometimes for 8 to 10 hours just to kill 1 or 2 birds. My company now sponsers a preserve hunt once a year. I don"t understand how anyone can compare this to real hunting My dog catches as many birds as i shoot. It does give the city slickers a chance to shoot a few birds out west. I have nothing against people who hunt in these events maybe there are no wild birds where they live. I feel blessed that I still live in a place where I can hunt wild birds.

[tommyboy72]

I also feel blessed to live where I can still hunt wild birds micha. I in no way compare the U.S. open pheasant trials to anything resembling real hunting. The BDC is a bit closer is all I was trying to say and that dogs were not placed in a manner that was based on a judge's subjective opinion. They are placed based on birds found, shot, and retrieved compared to a clocked time not on the opinion of a judge and how he thinks a bird should be hunted or a dog should move, etc. It kind of takes the X factor out of the equation and places the responsibility solely on the dog and the shooter.

[Ron R]

My dog catches as many birds as i shoot.

A dog farther along in it's training would not catch any birds. There is a huge difference between pen birds and wild birds. The preserve hunts are truely a bressing. I guide and train my dogs at my buddies preserve and it is in NO WAY wild bird hunting. But it is a fun place that I can take my young sons and daughters and have a great time with alot of shooting, alot of action and clean dog work. There are some regulars that will particpate in some friendly competitions and some semi-low stakes poker games accompanied with some beer drinking. It's just a fun place to be when not wild bird hunting. That being said, wild bird hunting here in So.IL is truely hunting, a 2 covey day is a good day and I feel very fortunate to have that.

It kind of takes the X factor out of the equation and places the responsibility solely on the dog and the shooter.

Not really. IMO I think that it's the human factor that ruins the format. I don't have a problem with the race hunts, its the quality of dog work that offends me. These may really be some nice dogs but the grossly lack of training is what sends it down the toilet.

Ron

[Ron R]

Yep it's a race which is much better than a beauty contest based on how good a dog looks while it points. :roll:

Tommy, field trialing is a whole lot more than a beauty contest. Just look at my avater, he lacks style but he is my best trial dog and my best hunting dog (for now anyway ). My point is that a dog with lesser style can be competitive if they make up for it in other areas.

Ron

[birddog1968]

I have guided preserve hunts for quite a few years now, Never have I had to throw a bird in the air.
Either those are some sorry birds someone raised or they had them in the crates for 3 days with no
food or water....that's when you can get that kinda performance out of a pen raised bird.

I also don't blame the dogs, its the handlers and the format that are the problem from my perspective.
In the second video I posted there was one pointer that actually stood until the bird was flushed, the
others well.....its not the dogs fault......

This isn't just a weekly game (BDC-Us open Phez) the video's show their championships.... The creme de la creme of their crop. The two formats could be so much more if people involved would only step back
and make it that way. Otherwise it poorly represents all field games to the general public....

[ezzy333]

Yep it's a race which is much better than a beauty contest based on how good a dog looks while it points. :roll:

Tommy, field trialing is a whole lot more than a beauty contest. Just look at my avater, he lacks style but he is my best trial dog and my best hunting dog (for now anyway ). My point is that a dog with lesser style can be competitive if they make up for it in other areas.

Ron

If you call that lacking in style then I want to see more dogs without it. The only thing I see that could be called a lack of style is the ten o'clock tail and to me at least that looks just as stylish, a lot prettier, and much more natural that the infatuation of having to have a stick of a tail pointing strainght up like it has been broken and never reset properly.

In other words that is a fine looking dog And I am not surprized at all that he can win in the eyes of a good judge of bird dogs.

Ezzy

[birddog1968]

In other words that is a fine looking dog And I am not surprized at all that he can win in the eyes of a good judge of bird dogs.

Ezzy

Gotta love the ones that look like their doing 60 standing still, regardless of tail.

[Ron R]

those are some sorry birds someone raised or they had them in the crates for 3 days with no
food or water....that's when you can get that kinda performance out of a pen raised bird.

They may just dizzy them so bad that they just about kill them to keep them to stay where they are planted.

I swear that I wasn't fishing for compliments but thanks for the kind words . BTW ezzy, it's more like an 11:00 tail . I lost an hour with that camera angle .

Ron

[slistoe]

As for my ignorance there is way more to it than just field trials.

The whole post that followed this epitomized the gross misunderstandings and total ignorance of what a field trial is all about. But it is not surprising that folks who view proper trials at such a superficial level will like a superficial format such as BDC.

It is also interesting that the person who decries the "beauty contest" will own dogs from the height of the formats accomplishments.

[birddog1968]

You might be right Ron, I watched this happen at the last Nstra trial i was at. Way to much shake
and then the hard thud when they threw them down.

The US Phez folks would benefit from a lesson in sleeping those Phez instead of shaking the life out of em possibly.

[Ron R]

Otherwise it poorly represents all field games to the general public....

Well Put...... It applauds unsafe hunters and very sloppy birddog work.

Ron

[birddogger]

Yep it's a race which is much better than a beauty contest based on how good a dog looks while it points. :roll:

Tommy, field trialing is a whole lot more than a beauty contest. Just look at my avater, he lacks style but he is my best trial dog and my best hunting dog (for now anyway ). My point is that a dog with lesser style can be competitive if they make up for it in other areas.

Ron

If you call that lacking in style then I want to see more dogs without it. The only thing I see that could be called a lack of style is the ten o'clock tail and to me at least that looks just as stylish, a lot prettier, and much more natural that the infatuation of having to have a stick of a tail pointing strainght up like it has been broken and never reset properly.

In other words that is a fine looking dog And I am not surprized at all that he can win in the eyes of a good judge of bird dogs.

Ezzy

My thoughts exactly Ezzy!!!! I guess style is in the eye of the beholder, but anything from a 10:00 to a 12:00 tail looks great to me, and I certainly don't want my dogs looking up into the trees or sky while on point.

Charlie

[BigShooter]

My thoughts exactly Ezzy!!!! I guess style is in the eye of the beholder, but anything from a 10:00 to a 12:00 tail looks great to me, and I certainly don't want my dogs looking up into the trees or sky while on point. Charlie

Yah but - some people think that is what is meant by a highly prized "limb find".

[tommyboy72]

Slistoe I have 2 pups out of NSTRA blood and I just traded for them a short time ago. My other dogs are out of ABHA blood. As a matter of fact from the same kennel, breeder and trainer who won ABHA National Champion this year with one dog and ABHA dog of the year with one of his other dogs.