Buying a pup for trialing -

[southernblues]

Question -

If a guy was to buy a pup out of FT/AA parents for the sole purpose of trialing -- how much are you looking at to make a run at the ABC Nationals? Example - I'm not a FT'ler nor have time for the training - however if I wanted to own such dog, what kind of costs are you looking at?

Say the pup was $1k at 8 weeks...when do you send off for campaigning? Does the pro submit expenses for reimbursement? I notice people that own dogs and never handle them as if they live 100% of time with the pro..

[PntrRookie]

southernblues - there are as many "agreements" out there as there are pups (I would believe). Locally there is a pro that runs SD and some Coverdog trials that is around $400/month while your dog is on string (includes training while not trialing), plus entry fees and $50/brace to handle. I think those fees are on the LOW end of what others charge...especially as you get up to the horseback SD and AA. This local Pro does not travel the country like many do. He sticks to the Midwest...IL, MN, WI, MI

[BigShooter]

As we discussed on this forum before, it'll run you at least $5,000 (excluding purchase & vet fees) to get a dog to the Field Champion level with a local pro. If you move the dog west to run on larger grounds to give a dog the best chance to run big & move the dog to a national pro you're probably talking about $650 per month instead of $400-$500/month. This is what many do to increase their chances of a national champion. The youngest dogs to win national championships have been 3 1/2 years old with dogs age 5 years old being more common.

For owners keeping their dogs with pros most of the year for training & trialing, plus vets, air travel to get the dog back & forth twice a year it wouldn't be unusual to be paying out up to $8,000/year. A couple of different NC owners I've visited with figured they'd invested at least $20,000 by the time the dog won the NC. Remember you're competing with some very wealthy owners with kennels full of dogs possibly employing a national pro full time to train and run their dogs. These types of owners usually campaign multiple dogs at each trial.

So the guys that do any or all of the following really deserve a tremendous amount of respect: make their own breeding decision to get one litter, select the one dog out of their own litter to trial, do most or all of the training themselves, handle and or scout their dog at trials and have multiple All Age wins, win consistently & win a National Championship with a dog under five years old are the cream of the crop of owners.

[southernblues]

Good info -- appreciate it. I've been curious to understand the economics behind the FT circuit and this sheds light on it. Exactly what I expected.

[zzweims]

$250,000

Aline
http://zzfarms

[BigShooter]

Sounds like the plantation was pretty inexpensive. How much land did you get for the $250,000?

[JKP]

For owners keeping their dogs with pros most of the year for training & trialing, plus vets, air travel to get the dog back & forth twice a year it wouldn't be unusual to be paying out up to $8,000/year. A couple of different NC owners I've visited with figured they'd invested at least $20,000 by the time the dog won the NC. Remember you're competing with some very wealthy owners with kennels full of dogs possibly employing a national pro full time to train and run their dogs. These types of owners usually campaign multiple dogs at each trial.

WOW!!! Can't believe that some have argued against my contention that FT is a rich man's sport. So are FC's bred or are they made? How many great dogs lived and died unknown because the owners weren't rich? Its no wonder the future of FT is in doubt. $20K invested would probably pay a kid's education by the time they were 18. No wonder NAVHDA/Hunt Tests exploded in this country. $5-8K/year!!!!...more than my truck payment..not far off the mortgage!!!

[PntrRookie]

...Can't believe that some have argued against my contention that FT is a rich man's sport...

I would tend to disagree. Sure the format described above leaves the majority of us out. But you are not looking that hard if that is all you see. We have a nice schedule of weekend trials, and in the greater Midwest (within a 4-6 hour drive) there are a LOT more. I am the "average Joe" trialer - throw the pup in the truck, pay the 40 to enter and away you go...NO ONE said you HAD to put a pup with a Pro for it's entire life, that was just one of the points of this original post, that does not mean that is how ALL FTs are.

[BigShooter]

If you're going to leave the work to someone else it's going to cost you. IMO lots of FC capable dogs never get the chance to be "made" into Champions. However there are many "do-it-yourself-ers" that have a lot of fun and some success with their dogs playing in the FT game. The wealthy have an advantage but this is North America and the person with fewer resources but a big heart and lots of determination isn't precluded from succeeding in the games. Obviously though staying local costs a lot less than trialing nationally.

The costs above don't include horses, tack, trailers, tow vehicles, etc. Every situation is so different. You could live on a relatively poor farm in a State with a good climate for gundog training, in wild bird country and have a tremendous & less costly training advantage in your own back yard. People in large Cities often have to send their dogs off with a pro for training just because they have little to no access to wild birds otherwise. Likewise the pros with their own kennels & breeding programs, lots of stock & terrific training facilities have a winning advantage but you'd be hard pressed to find a pro set up like this that has become wealthy doing it.

So I would say it is more easily a wealthier person's sport but no one is precluded and while money may improve your chances of winning a National Championship it doesn't guarantee it as a couple of wealthy participants could attest.

[jetjockey]

Its a wealthy mans sport. Im going broke trying to play with the big boys! But, like others said, it isn't cheap if you really want to be able to compete at the National level. This last year has been my first foray into the field trial world. I really had no desire to get into trialing. I got a brit from pretty good breeding and sent her off to summer camp in S. Dakota with a pro handler. I really just wanted her to get some experience with wild birds and to have the pro break her. After camp she ran in a couple of derby trials and the next thing you know she had her derby win and 2 points. Then I was told that I really need to leave her with the trainer because, as it was put to me, "there are lots of great hunting dogs, but few great trial dogs". Now we are comming up on our first year of training/trialing our pup. It has cost me just under $4500 for training/trialing expenses. That doesn't include going to see her run, gas to drive the 1000 mile round trip to the trainer, or anything else.. My pup will turn 2 in June, and she has 4 points toward her FC and is qualified for ABC OGD Nationals next year. However, she has a long ways to go before she can really compete with the quality of dogs who run at nationals, so its going to cost me a lot more money if I want to see her run there. And she might not ever be good enough to compete at Nationals, even though shes qualified for them. IVe been told that we are lucky, because we got a pretty good dog right from the start, but I know of people who are on their 3rd or 4th pup trying to find a dog that will be able to compete at the National level. Thats why a lot of the big time guys raise litters until they are a lot older so they can pick the cream of the crop and save a lot of money in the long run. Field trialing and competing at the top level isn't cheap. But then again, I could have just bought a nice 100 acre farm with a nice house to train, a couple of horses, a horse trailer, and new truck to drive around to all the trials, and just trained my dog myslef. Heck, I could have saved a lot of money!

[BigShooter]

Field trialing and competing at the top level isn't cheap. But then again, I could have just bought a nice 100 acre farm with a nice house to train, a couple of horses, a horse trailer, and new truck to drive around to all the trials, and just trained my dog myslef. Heck, I could have saved a lot of money!

I was with you until I got to the part about buying "a nice farm", "a nice house" & "a new truck". You don't need nice or new to participate or win.

You can spend a fortune on hunting or fishing gear to enjoy those activities while the old guy goes out with his meager, old stuff, has as much fun & his results are just as good or better. That's kind of the way it is with local trialing. However, there are recreational leagues (local trialing) & there are the big leagues (Regional Species & National Championships). Going for the National Championships is a little like pro ball teams going for World titles. There are examples of frugal, smart teams winning but there are many more examples of owners in major markets buying talent & investing fortunes to win the big one.

[JKP]

OK---I'll bite...

What real chances does the novice with a minimum budget have to finish his dog? I'm sure without serious roading/conditioning, no weekend warrior is gonna do to well just on stamina. Sounds like a lot of novices are "fodder for the cannon" to me. Sounds like a sport dominated by the pros and trainers. Yeah, I forgot the horses, the trailer, the ATV, the club membership (need grounds to run on) as well as the normal expenses.

And all that and no water work, minimal retrieving...(sorry, but every time my buddy shoots a bird over his FT bred GSP and it falls in the water, I have to bring my dog to retrieve it). You gotta admit, with those kind of expenses and the odds for the novice, its no wonder NAVHDA exploded...

[Wagonmaster]

The question was about buying and trialing a $1000 pup out of AA parents and turning it into an NC. In field trialing, just like baseball or any other sports, there are alot of levels. Our OP was asking about the cost at the very top level. Here in Minn., and in most places, we have lots of people who train their own and run weekend trials, or give the dog to a pro for some training, take it back, and run weekend trials. They have alot of fun at it, are successful, and they finish FC's. I think they would laugh at hearing that it is a rich man's sport. Major circuit AA may be, but that is definitely not all their is to trialing.

Back to the OP's question, not yet mentioned is the fact that your chances with that pup you bought, of even getting an AA much less a dog that you can win an NC with, are not great even out of FT/AA parents. Lots of people go through lots of dogs and lots of years before they get one of those, or never get one at all. You can't plan for it, if you do you will be disappointed. So you should factor in to the equation going through several dogs before finding "the one." Running a dog at that level is something you just have to do because you love to do it. And frankly it is not the be-all and end-all. I have one of those dogs you are talking about, and I do love to go to the Nationals, and it is a thrill to win, in fact it is a thrill to run him there and not win.

But more than anything else I love to take them out and run them on the prairie on wild birds, where there is nothing at stake except maybe pride and what's in the pot for supper. That is the be-all and the end-all.

[msrkennels]

I've been field trialing and hunting over my dogs for 15yrs, have won the gspca national amateur field championship twice; r/u twice also r/u osd nationals ngspa, a dog i bred and helped traine just won the ngspa national championship. I had no expierence with hunting dogs when I started. I trained myself and my dogs with in 6yrs had won my first asd championship and gspca amateur nationals without a pro.They call me lucky but the truth is I have good dogs and make my own luck.I have won over 30 osd,asd and aa ngspca championships all over this country its a commitment and i enjoy it ,it not for everyone but don't compare it to navada or nastra they are games not true competion and you won't see a horse back champion come from there breeding program more likely they get there dogs from are breeding program. By the way i'm far from wealthy you either pay some one or put the time in yourself.

[JKP]

But more than anything else I love to take them out and run them on the prairie on wild birds, where there is nothing at stake except maybe pride and what's in the pot for supper. That is the be-all and the end-all.

Thank you Wagonmaster for putting it in perspective.

they are games not true competion and you won't see a horse back champion come from there breeding program

Competition is not the only path to great dogs. I have seen many dogs that play "games" (as you call it) that could easily compete in the many FT venues...bred a solid 1000yd FC out of foot hunting bitch years back. Desire is desire where ever you find it..and style is style...and most important, manners on game is not exclusive to any venue.

Good to hear that the common guy can play your game...I bet that few do and are successful and I bet that the "short running dogs" don't get much respect no matter how good they are.

[snips]

Depends on how talented the dog is.

[BigShooter]

I have seen many dogs that play "games" (as you call it) that could easily compete in the many FT venues....

We get this type of statement on this site all the time but it is without support until you have taken many of those dogs that you've seen play games, trialed them and demonstrated they are competitive. I do understand you are expressing this merely as your own opinion.

Regarding Wagonmaster's post I'm willing to bet there are far fewer people willing to fork over $20,000 to train up & trial a true AA prospect just so they can get the thrill of taking their trial dog out on the prairies hunting than there are average gundog owners unwilling or unable to shell out that kind of dough just so they can run a totally broke dog on wild birds.

I have no doubt though that Wagonmaster does, as he says, "love to take them out and run them on the prairie on wild birds. "

[zzweims]

Sounds like the plantation was pretty inexpensive. How much land did you get for the $250,000?

That was a seperate expense all together! Here's a fictitious break down of the financial costs to far too many field trialers I know:

Dog 1: $800
Year 1: training books, DVDs, latest, greatest (unnecessary) gadgets: $2000
Year 2: buy new pup from better lines after completely screwing up dog 1: $1200
Year 2: Join clubs, lease training grounds, subscribe to dog magazines, switch to best dog food, vet bills, etc. $1000 annually
Year 3: Puppy/Derby stakes. Lose 8 out of 10. Travel farther to 'better' judges: $2000
Year 4: buy 2 horses (one's always lame), truck, and trailer: $45,000
Year 4: Build kennels, extend barn for new toys and animals: $25,000
Year 5: Gun dog!? Yiikes! Hire pro: $4000 then flub every call-back due to nerves: add $2000
Year 6: Buy dogs 3 and 4 because spouse is lonely and wants to join in. Also still can't admit failure with 1 and 2 is your own fault: $3000
Years 7-8: Some success with dogs 3-4, but still running 1-2, so they don't feel left out. Start going to prairies; hire part time pros, more gadgets: $10,000
Year 9: After 4 failed attempts, 10,000 combined miles, 80 unpaid days off work for self and spouse, WIN THE NATIONALS: $20,000
Year 9: Buy picture frame for $2 national win ribbon; advertise your national winner at stud to no takers: $300
Year 10: Dogs 5-6, horses 3-4 acquired somewhere along the line; upgrade kennels and horse barn: $35000
Year 11: Upgrade truck and trailer, because now have too many dogs and horses for old ones: $50,000
Year 12: Still running all dogs and acquiring more in attempt to replicate national win after best dog gets hit by car; mondo vet bills: $12000
Year 13: Divorce over money issues and spending too much time with the dogs: $25,000

Year 14: Repeat

Aline
http://zzfarms.com

[Jager]

Answer to the original question, what is the expected cost of a FT dog? ...an arm and a leg, regardless of wether it is an AA or shooting dog. Seriously though, I have/am doing it both ways with different dogs. Dog 1 has stayed with a pro-trainer 6-8 months out of the year. Dog 1 cost approx. $3500-4000 not including entry fees. Dog 2 only goes to the trainer maybe 2 months out of the year as I do the rest of the training. He goes just to get "cleaned-up" from time to time, because i don't have the necessary grounds and/or time to do certain things that are required. I am not wealthy by any means but have invested in horses, a trailer, all the necessary tack, tracking collars and so forth so it adds up to be A LOT of money. However, I have fell in love with the competition of FT's and have gotten very lucky and been very successful with the dogs I have. My 3 FT dogs have all been so called "cull or left-over" dogs. So, do you really know what you're gonna get at such a young age?

[BigShooter]

Aline,

I added it up to $238,302 in my head, hope that's right! The $11,698 difference of course went for alcohol if you paid cash otherwise Uodibar. You'd have to add something on for the medical bills for at least one horse wreck on top of everything else. The $250,000 sure looks to be short now.

[Buckeye_V]

JKP asked how much does a novice have at finishing an FC and what kind of budget?

My first dog from a pup, trained and primarily handled by myself in field events:

Birds for training - $4.50 per (average)
Fuel to drive to training area - $25.00 per week
Training devices (one time purchase) - $600.00
Entry fees $50.00 per run
Fuel to get to and from trial $100.00 per trip on average
Hotel and meals for weekend $200.00 per weekend

Now, I happen to live 13 miles from my home grounds, so my expenses are drastically cut.

I typically do not travel more than 4 hours for a weekend trial, to keep costs down.

I train out my back door.

I also judge a bit and if I run my dog, typically my entries are comped.

So, in the best of situations, you have fuel to get to the grounds for the weekend.

The worst of weekends is close to $500.00. I don't do too many of those.

IT CAN BE A RICH MAN's sport. It can be very affordable if you stick to your budget and are able to make some sacrifices.

Justin

[wannabe]

For owners keeping their dogs with pros most of the year for training & trialing, plus vets, air travel to get the dog back & forth twice a year it wouldn't be unusual to be paying out up to $8,000/year. A couple of different NC owners I've visited with figured they'd invested at least $20,000 by the time the dog won the NC. Remember you're competing with some very wealthy owners with kennels full of dogs possibly employing a national pro full time to train and run their dogs. These types of owners usually campaign multiple dogs at each trial.

WOW!!! Can't believe that some have argued against my contention that FT is a rich man's sport. So are FC's bred or are they made? How many great dogs lived and died unknown because the owners weren't rich? Its no wonder the future of FT is in doubt. $20K invested would probably pay a kid's education by the time they were 18. No wonder NAVHDA/Hunt Tests exploded in this country. $5-8K/year!!!!...more than my truck payment..not far off the mortgage!!!

How much are people spending with the pros for their UT I, MH, or VC these days? Judging from what I have seen, most NAVHDA pros charge almost double the rate of a FT pro. It doesn't take a pro to win in FTs, but it helps when you don't have the time to do it yourself.

FTing is a hobby like boating, camping, or golfing. You get out of it what you put in it; whether it is time, work, or money. There are rich FTers that hardly ever bring home a ribbon, and not-so-rich FTers that you know will probably "be in the money" nearly every time they turn the dog loose.

[Wagonmaster]

Training a dog to the level of performance required in any of the formal venues, whether NAVHDA, FT, or any other, requires a great deal of work and requires that the dog be kept constantly in training. There are lots of people who have the time, enjoy it, and do it themselves. It certainly requires dedication. There are people who keep dogs with pros full time. And there are people everywhere in between.

[JKP]

Well, I hear the hedging...and it sounds like all of you are spending way more than I ever had to spend for NAVHDA or the VDD...I could finish 10 dogs for $20K so you'll understand my amazement.

We get this type of statement on this site all the time but it is without support until you have taken many of those dogs that you've seen play games, trialed them and demonstrated they are competitive. I do understand you are expressing this merely as your own opinion.

I have heard this reaction before too....but over my 40 years in dogs, I have just seen too many examples of unknown dogs knocking my socks off that I no longer believe that any one venue has a corner on excellence. We are all guilty of not knowing what is beyond our playing field.

If I ever have $10-20K extra (plus the horses, trailer, ATV, and all the expenses), I'll think about it.

[mudhunter]

You don't need to spend 20K! You sound like you already have finished dogs, go out and spend 40$ on an entry and pay the wrangler 20$, put up or shut up!

[birddog1968]

You don't need to spend 20K! You sound like you already have finished dogs, go out and spend 40$ on an entry and pay the wrangler 20$, put up or shut up!

+1

[BigShooter]

We get this type of statement on this site all the time but it is without support until you have taken many of those dogs that you've seen play games, trialed them and demonstrated they are competitive. I do understand you are expressing this merely as your own opinion.

I have heard this reaction before too....but over my 40 years in dogs, I have just seen too many examples of unknown dogs knocking my socks off that I no longer believe that any one venue has a corner on excellence.

You'd have to define "excellence" for the rest of us to understand what you are truly trying to say. I think it would not be very difficult to get agreement from folks that any number of dogs, that may have possessed the potential to be competitive in national field trials or any other venue you chose, never got the chance to participate.

We are all guilty of not knowing what is beyond our playing field.

I would assert one difference though, is that there are more field trialers who participated in NAVDA before they got into trialing than there are folks that started out trialing and then moved on to NAVDA. When those dually informed individuals start espousing the many superior dogs they've seen in NAVDA that would be taking field trials by storm, I will listen.

[JKP]

If I understand field trialing (and I've been to a few), there are many types of trials and even the various trialers look down their noses at various venues. I understand the various echelons- AA dogs, gun dogs, cover dogs, etc---and then the shorter running AKC trial dogs where a decent 150 yard dog with style and manners (in the east at least) has a chance of doing well. I have never seen a true AA dog, quite a few big running gun dogs, and I see 2-300 yd dogs all the time...many of which have never seen a field trial. You say they're all slouches...you need to get around more.

I believe any dog that will stay 2-300 yards to the front, work hard for an hour, hit objectives, use the wind/nose intelligently, show some pop on birds and manners/polish on contact will do well. The problem with FT is that it doesn't tell me enough about a dog. Tells me a lot about its independence, and pure field work but its just a small part of what I expect. A dog that will pound out through heavy stump water for an hour has every bit the "bottom" of the dogs you are looking for. Then there's the question whether it can sit quietly in a duckblind for 3-4 hours. I probably don't have dogs that are small enough, light boned enough to run with the longtails in 80+ degree heat. The Euro Vdogs are just not bred for that...

Look, I think its a good thing that breeds have good FT dogs in their gene pools...but I know its not the only way to identify great dogs. Whether you guys like to admit it or not...its an expensive game well out of the reach of most. I have put my dogs on the ground with plantation pointers and trial bred dogs of many breeds...and have yet to see a huge difference...as long as it doesn't get too hot

But to be competitive, sounds like you need to spend a lot of money or be lucky enough to get "the" puppy... which started this whole discussion. I do agree that no matter what the venue, you have to be prepared to go through a few dogs to find the good ones.

[BigShooter]

You say they're all slouches....

Please quote where you found this in the thread.

Why are you so interested in talking down field trialing and so defensive about NAVDA & NAVDA dogs? NAVDA is a great organization. What is so bad about everyone having options for participation with their gundogs? It's a credit to gundogs as a whole that they are successful in many different venues and different hunting scenarios (like the British Isles vs North America).

At least three different posters (including me) pointed out that much of the cash out of pocket is directly related to how much of the work you do yourself & how much you pay others to do it for you & I'd venture to say that's true of any venue.

[BigShooter]

Back to the OP's original post, in the OP's context of buying a pup and having a pro do the work, "when do you send the pup off?"

I know of a NC that was sent off to the trainer at about three months of age. I would say on the young side the range is between 3 & 6 months. Again it depends upon how much you do vs the pro. You don't want a pup to get off to a slow start (you want those puppy/derby points) or develop any ingrained bad habits before a pro gets the pup. Again it depends upon the individual dog & the individual pro. Even though "sent off to boarding school", young pups well handled will likely develop very well socially. A pup that you want to get to the nationals would do well to pretty much remain with the pro during the first 1 1/2 to 2 years. Generally as they are a bit older the dog is home twice, after the fall trialing season & after the spring trialing season. The dog is delivered back to the pro early enough to be tuned up for an upcoming trialing season.

To answer the other question, expect the pro's bill to be itemized showing charges for entry fees, handling fees during trials , unusual vet expenses as well as the monthly training fee that covers training, board & keep.

[JKP]

Remember to have the pro train you as well...can't tell you how many dogs that I have seen come back from the pro in top condition/training that backslide quickly. I would suggest working with a pro right in your area and make sure there will be time for the pro to work with you as well.