Different breeds, which run biggest? smallest?

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nowicki2005
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Different breeds, which run biggest? smallest?

Post by nowicki2005 » Sun May 23, 2010 12:37 pm

I am pretty much looking to know how britts compare in how big they run compared to vizslas as I'm running a vizsla trial next weekend, but also, as far as pointing breeds go, how would you rank the biggest running breeds down to the smallest running breeds?

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Re: Different breeds, which run biggest? smallest?

Post by Brittguy » Sun May 23, 2010 1:23 pm

Individuals within a breed can vary so much, I wouldn't want to try to answer your question because there would be so many exceptions.
I think it would be safe to say that as a breed , Pointers are the biggest running dogs.

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Re: Different breeds, which run biggest? smallest?

Post by BigShooter » Sun May 23, 2010 1:33 pm

You didn't say "gundog" but assuming that, I think you'll get general agreement about higher numbers of top pointers running bigger than other breeds. I don't think you'll get an answer on running the smallest. You'll find boot lickers in any breed. I have seen a couple of bad examples of Weims that walk 10 feet in front of their owner.
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Re: Different breeds, which run biggest? smallest?

Post by BigShooter » Sun May 23, 2010 2:30 pm

nowicki2005,

You also might want to consider which larger running dogs have better endurance in the heat. There are some slightly longer haired dogs I've seen run pretty big in cool weather that tend to slow down & run smaller as the temperature goes up.
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Re: Different breeds, which run biggest? smallest?

Post by Crestonegsp » Sun May 23, 2010 3:33 pm

Pointers run big is that wisdom of years gone by or still a fact of today, depends on where you are in the country. Since moving to Kentucky I have been going to pointer trials since they are the only game in the state. What I see is the advantage pointers have over other big going breeds is the ability to shoot them where they want them to go. When wondering about range it means nothing if not applied correctly, I want a dog that got where they are going to get there the right way and not look like a BB shot in a can and be over the horizon. Based on the stake if you have a dog that goes to the the right places the right way than you are in the money no matter what breed. Range has it purpose and it's advantages but how they get there is more important than how far away they are.
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Re: Different breeds, which run biggest? smallest?

Post by BigShooter » Sun May 23, 2010 4:51 pm

cgsp,

What do you think is the reason there are breed specific national field trial championships?
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Re: Different breeds, which run biggest? smallest?

Post by Crestonegsp » Sun May 23, 2010 6:02 pm

If you want to know why nationals for different breeds are closed to that breed only it is to find the best of that breed in an effort to improve the breed by running the best against the best, finding a winner and breeding to that winner. Now why are other trials closed to specific breeds? Are they hurting their breed by keeping other breeds away?
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Re: Different breeds, which run biggest? smallest?

Post by BigShooter » Sun May 23, 2010 7:13 pm

Okay so lets say there was only one national aa field trial championship open to all breeds, run on the prairies out west where big running dogs are at a premium. Cgsp, which breed do you think would produce the most winners?
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Re: Different breeds, which run biggest? smallest?

Post by slistoe » Sun May 23, 2010 7:44 pm

When I asked one veteran competitor who ran Brits in the AF trials against all comers about the chances of winning they replied "You will never outrun them, all you can hope is that you outbird them." In all the times I ran I certainly found that to be true.

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Re: Different breeds, which run biggest? smallest?

Post by Crestonegsp » Sun May 23, 2010 7:47 pm

Well who would win an AA run out west. I gather you are fishing and you have in your mind that pointers would clean up. While pointers are a great breed of dog they do not win all the AF championships SD or AA, ask Doug Favor about that. I used to live out west, western SoDak where "big running dogs are at a premium", and have seen what it takes to cover that wide open space. To discount any breed from being able to beat another would be wrong, they all have great dogs in each breed. The reason people have the breed they do and promote them is a personal reason. BigShooter I not sure what you are looking for.
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Re: Different breeds, which run biggest? smallest?

Post by slistoe » Sun May 23, 2010 7:50 pm

BigShooter wrote:Okay so lets say there was only one national aa field trial championship open to all breeds, run on the prairies out west where big running dogs are at a premium. Cgsp, which breed do you think would produce the most winners?
You mean something like this one?
http://www.region14aftca.com/region14/i ... &Itemid=34

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Re: Different breeds, which run biggest? smallest?

Post by BigShooter » Sun May 23, 2010 8:03 pm

slistoe wrote:
BigShooter wrote:Okay so lets say there was only one national aa field trial championship open to all breeds, run on the prairies out west where big running dogs are at a premium. Cgsp, which breed do you think would produce the most winners?
You mean something like this one?
http://www.region14aftca.com/region14/i ... &Itemid=34
Yes, something like that.

The OP originally just asked which breed runs the biggest, not which breed gets the best application from its biggest running dogs. This is just opinion but my educated guess if we ran a poll for trialers experienced with pointers as well as the other breeds is that English Pointers would top the list as being recognized as the biggest running AA trial dogs. Now I've been wrong before. :D
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Re: Different breeds, which run biggest? smallest?

Post by Crestonegsp » Sun May 23, 2010 9:10 pm

Mark,

Some pointer pros they say shorhair AA dogs have become too big running, but what does that mean?

Yes, the question was what breed runs the biggest and my point is range means nothing without application and if you think you are going to win a FT because you have the biggest run you going to find yourself going home empty handed a lot.
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Re: Different breeds, which run biggest? smallest?

Post by BigShooter » Sun May 23, 2010 9:12 pm

At the last Vizsla sponsored trial I was at there was one Gun Dog third place taken by a Vizsla. The winners were all GSPs, with a couple of young pointers also placing.

If you want to find out last year's winners of the trial you will be attending go to the AKC website, select events & awards, put in the name of the club & click the State on the map. Locate last years trial, click on each category (puppy, derby, etc.). You will see the placements showing the dog's name & breed. This is probably the best way to find out what breed wins locally in the category you're interested in.
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Re: Different breeds, which run biggest? smallest?

Post by nowicki2005 » Sun May 23, 2010 9:25 pm

BigShooter wrote:At the last Vizsla sponsored trial I was at there was one Gun Dog third place taken by a Vizsla. The winners were all GSPs, with a couple of young pointers also placing.

If you want to find out last year's winners of the trial you will be attending go to the AKC website, select events & awards, put in the name of the club & click the State on the map. Locate last years trial, click on each category (puppy, derby, etc.). You will see the placements showing the dog's name & breed. This is probably the best way to find out what breed wins locally in the category you're interested in.

Thanks that's a good idea

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Re: Different breeds, which run biggest? smallest?

Post by BigShooter » Sun May 23, 2010 9:29 pm

Crestonegsp wrote:Mark,

Some pointer pros they say shorhair AA dogs have become too big running, but what does that mean?

Yes, the question was what breed runs the biggest and my point is range means nothing without application and if you think you are going to win a FT because you have the biggest run you going to find yourself going home empty handed a lot.
Dan - I understood your point. We could get into a whole other discussion of how much influence training has on application and handling. How many dogs are natural & not made? You aren't going to win any AA stakes without a big running dog. A gun dog with great application still doesn't make AA moves. As we always say, it's a lot easier to reel them in than to try and push them out.

Back to the OP's question, I still contend you will get more knowlegable pros & amateurs that will place pointers at the head of the list for big running dogs than any other breed of gundog. JMO
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Re: Different breeds, which run biggest? smallest?

Post by bwjohn » Sun May 23, 2010 9:34 pm

I have been around V's east coast and now the western dogs some. I have seen some really big running V's, especially recently.

I would say that you could run up against some good dogs, but there could also be some smaller running dogs.

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Re: Different breeds, which run biggest? smallest?

Post by Rich Heaton » Mon May 24, 2010 12:55 am

BigShooter wrote:As we always say, it's a lot easier to reel them in than to try and push them out
I thought we agreed "We would rather push'em them pull'em"?
bwjohn wrote:I have been around V's east coast and now the western dogs some. I have seen some really big running V's, especially recently
I would agree,,,, Pointers 1st then the V's,,,,, but you can't forget a big goin wirehair,,, I've actually never seen one finish an hour stake.

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Re: Different breeds, which run biggest? smallest?

Post by Crestonegsp » Mon May 24, 2010 5:38 am

Mark,

If you had 100 AF - AA stakes I am sure pointers would win well over 90% and with that said the reason is pointers have the gene pool of AA. Looking at the gene pools in other breeds, how many real AA dogs are there in GSPs, VIZ or Britts? Sorry I have got off topic here.
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Re: Different breeds, which run biggest? smallest?

Post by Wagonmaster » Mon May 24, 2010 6:09 am

In my view, this is just the wrong question to ask when picking a dog for hunting or trialing. It is not about run. It is about nose and birdiness. Have hunted over lots of close working dogs of many breeds. My personal observation is that most of those close working dogs just don't have a nose and can't find a bird to save their soul. There are certainly "no nose" dogs at the other end of the spectrum also - dogs that are all run and can't find birds. The dog you want, is the dog that is always into birds. You won't care how big they run if they are doing that.

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Re: Different breeds, which run biggest? smallest?

Post by brookzee » Mon May 24, 2010 6:32 am

amen to that wagonmaster. i personally like a goer and mover.but what i really like is a BIRDDOG.

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Re: Different breeds, which run biggest? smallest?

Post by GrayDawg » Mon May 24, 2010 6:43 am

BigShooter wrote:
slistoe wrote:
BigShooter wrote:Okay so lets say there was only one national aa field trial championship open to all breeds, run on the prairies out west where big running dogs are at a premium. Cgsp, which breed do you think would produce the most winners?
You mean something like this one?
http://www.region14aftca.com/region14/i ... &Itemid=34
Yes, something like that.

The OP originally just asked which breed runs the biggest, not which breed gets the best application from its biggest running dogs. This is just opinion but my educated guess if we ran a poll for trialers experienced with pointers as well as the other breeds is that English Pointers would top the list as being recognized as the biggest running AA trial dogs. Now I've been wrong before. :D
You mean just "Pointer" right?
English Pointers are the dogs one finds in a Show ring.
Pointers are found in the field ! :lol:

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Re: Different breeds, which run biggest? smallest?

Post by Crestonegsp » Mon May 24, 2010 6:55 am

John,

I agree run gets you nowhere without bird finding ability and the nose. This is why bird dogs win pointer Field trials and not sight hounds.
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Re: Different breeds, which run biggest? smallest?

Post by BigShooter » Mon May 24, 2010 9:04 am

Rich Heaton wrote:
BigShooter wrote:As we always say, it's a lot easier to reel them in than to try and push them out
I thought we agreed "We would rather push'em them pull'em"?
:D

I keep mine on a string so it's a lot easier to reel them in from any direction front, back or sideways. It's probably just me but I've never been able to push a string or push a wet noodle either. :lol:

Dan & John,

Of course I don't disagree. I was just too rigid in my thinking & tried to answer the OPs question directly. :P

You know, besides a nose, we need to talk about everything else it takes a big runnin' dog to win and get everyone's opinion on what they look for with: style, gait, intelligence, intensity, competitiveness, stamina, heat tolerance, biddability, the right training, luck with the weather conditions, luck of the draw, the right judges, the right scout, only live good flyers on course ... and a few other things I can't think of right now. I still say all else being about equal, a gun dog isn't going to beat out a AA dog in a AA stake nor are dogs of other breeds going to consistently run bigger than pointers. :wink:
GrayDawg wrote:You mean just "Pointer" right?
After saying only "pointer" in the first two or three posts of this thread I thought I'd add "English" in case a newbie didn't know that most of the time when we say pointer we are not referring to any & all pointing dogs but "pointer" refers to "English Pointers" used for the purpose for which they were bred.
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Re: Different breeds, which run biggest? smallest?

Post by slistoe » Mon May 24, 2010 10:22 am

Crestonegsp wrote: bird dogs win pointer Field trials
I thought they were beauty pageants weren't they? 12:00 tails, high heads, classy race etc. How did "bird dogs" get in there.

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Re: Different breeds, which run biggest? smallest?

Post by BigShooter » Mon May 24, 2010 10:44 am

Crestonegsp wrote:Mark,

If you had 100 AF - AA stakes I am sure pointers would win well over 90% and with that said the reason is pointers have the gene pool of AA. Looking at the gene pools in other breeds, how many real AA dogs are there in GSPs, VIZ or Britts? Sorry I have got off topic here.
I'm sure I'll get into trouble over this one but to answer the question, " a dozen or so good ones within each breed", and then you could still argue whether they are "true AAs" or not. What do you think?
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Re: Different breeds, which run biggest? smallest?

Post by cody » Mon May 24, 2010 7:42 pm

You mean just "Pointer" right?
English Pointers are the dogs one finds in a Show ring.
Pointers are found in the field !
Technically what you will find in the AKC show ring is "pointers". FDSB are the "english pointers"

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Re: Different breeds, which run biggest? smallest?

Post by Wagonmaster » Tue May 25, 2010 7:58 am

Other way around. FDSB/AF has always just been "pointers." AKC called them English pointers, but now they seem to like the traditional AF name for the breed.

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Re: Different breeds, which run biggest? smallest?

Post by volraider » Tue May 25, 2010 9:34 am

There's a reason most all-age dogs regardless of the breed look like pointers ! :lol:
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Re: Different breeds, which run biggest? smallest?

Post by ACooper » Tue May 25, 2010 11:26 am

volraider wrote:There's a reason most all-age dogs look like pointers! :lol:
Regardless of breed!!!!!!!! :lol:

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Re: Different breeds, which run biggest? smallest?

Post by JKP » Tue May 25, 2010 2:34 pm

The dog you want, is the dog that is always into birds. You won't care how big they run if they are doing that.
AMEN!! Give me the dog that's standing in front of birds just more often that other dogs...I'll show you a dog with desire, enough run, great nose and manners on contact.
volraider wrote:There's a reason most all-age dogs look like pointers! :lol:



Regardless of breed!!!!!!!! :lol:
I've been shouted down for saying this over the years. The "game" is going to be best played by the dogs that are best adapted physically for the "game"...45-55lbs, smaller boned, not too heavily coated...all breeds tend to gravitate to a common size/type...and oddly a large percentage of white :roll: :roll:

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Re: Different breeds, which run biggest? smallest?

Post by MTO4Life » Tue May 25, 2010 2:45 pm

nowicki2005 wrote:I am pretty much looking to know how britts compare in how big they run compared to vizslas as I'm running a vizsla trial next weekend, but also, as far as pointing breeds go, how would you rank the biggest running breeds down to the smallest running breeds?
Hey nowicki, I ran my britt in a viszla trial awhile ago, and she ran as big (or bigger) as the other dogs there. This was as a derby. As an adult gundog, I've seen her run as big as vizslas (GSP, pointers and others). That being said, I've seen the same breeds run bigger as well. I've seen one britt I would class as AA (I've never seen a dog run like that, and as many have told me, it's hard to describe an AA dog, but once you see it, you won't forget it. This is true). Going against what some other britt owners have told me, I think britts are definately a shorter running dog as a whole. That is my opinion though. I'm sure there are the exceptions in ALL breeds.

It all depends in my mind, but that is only my $0.02

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