Pray for my Girls

zzweims · Post by **zzweims** » Sun May 30, 2010 10:28 am

Mohawk and her puppy Cherry Pie were bit by a rattlesnake at 10:00 this morning. It doesn't look good. I've called every vet I can think of within 2 hours, but because of the holiday, few have called me back. And the ones who have are out of anti-venom.

Right now, I'm counting on benedryl and prayer

Aline

postoakshorthairs · Post by **postoakshorthairs** » Sun May 30, 2010 10:59 am

Aline,
I'm so sorry to hear that...i'll keep you in our thoughts.

bossman · Post by **bossman** » Sun May 30, 2010 11:27 am

We are with you..We will keep you in our thoughts and prayers

Maverick57 · Post by **Maverick57** » Sun May 30, 2010 11:48 am

I am there in Heart & Soul- Lots of good prayers for our Grey kids.

Keep us posted.

birddogger · Post by **birddogger** » Sun May 30, 2010 11:53 am

That is absolutely horrible! Our thoughts and prayers are with you.

Charlie

Maurice · Post by **Maurice** » Sun May 30, 2010 12:26 pm

Dang I hate to hear that Aline. I sure hope they will be alright.

Mo

wems2371 · Post by **wems2371** » Sun May 30, 2010 12:37 pm

Will be thinking of you and your girls...

rapid fire · Post by **rapid fire** » Sun May 30, 2010 1:09 pm

Sorry to hear that Aline. Will be thinking about your girls and you.

Post by **ezzy333** » Sun May 30, 2010 1:39 pm

Let us know s soon as you can of any changes in their condition. Hope it all comes out OK.

Ezzy

snips · Post by **snips** » Sun May 30, 2010 2:13 pm

My vet sent me to the hospitol for anti venom..... Of course needed his call to release it...Pray for the best, if you have antibiotics throw that at em too. Cordezone too...

Georgia Boy · Post by **Georgia Boy** » Mon May 31, 2010 6:38 am

I hope everything turns out OK for them. A friend of mine was bitten by a copperhead last week while pulling a few weeds in the back yard.

Ruffshooter · Post by **Ruffshooter** » Mon May 31, 2010 8:52 am

Geesh, your pups are in our thoughts an prayers. Is there no emergency vets around in you state? Sure would be worth a ride. What about getting a vet to release as Brenda mentioned (Snips)? Or What about a large Kennel or Plantation down that way, would they have any?

Good luck.

Rick

zzweims · Post by **zzweims** » Mon May 31, 2010 9:32 am

It was a long night, but the girls pulled through!! I can't say the same for the @!#$% snake

I did locate anti-venin is several places, but the time/distance was too great for it to be affective. I *know* what the local vets know, which is partly why they don't carry anti-venin (in addition to the cost and poor shelf life). And that is that a dog needs it immediately, within 1-4 hours depending on who you talk to, for it to be affective. Or rather, if a dog receives a lethal snake bite, he'll be dead within 1-4 hours without the anti-venin. If he survives longer than that, he didn't get a lethal bite and the anti-venin wouldn't have been necessary anyway.

Still, *knowing* this and living through it are two different things. Watching dogs suffer in that kind of agony and providing nothing more than supportive care will rip the heart right out of your chest. We're not completely out of the woods yet. There's always the potential for secondary complications: infection, tissue/muscle/organ damage, etc. So far so good. But there is a chance that little Cherry Pie will lose her right eye.

Aline
http://zzfarms.com

SubMariner · Post by **SubMariner** » Mon May 31, 2010 11:20 am

As someone who's been through this last August with our GSP, I know how badly this feels. Luckily, I had already sourced out a vet in the area that keeps antivenin on hand.

That being said, as soon as we were able, we took the dog to be snakeproofed. We'll probably be doing it again this year.

Glad they came through the worst. Continuing to send "good vibes" that there is no future damage from the venom.

zzweims · Post by **zzweims** » Mon May 31, 2010 12:42 pm

I saved the snake--or what was left of it---and put my remaining dogs through an impromptu snake breaking clinic. I know it's better to use a live snake, but I never want to get that close to a live rattler again! I had to wade through the brush shooting at the sound to get it. Must have unloaded half a box of shells

Aline
http://zzfarms.com

zzweims · Post by **zzweims** » Mon May 31, 2010 12:47 pm

For those of you who have never been through this before, here's what it looks like. The swelling was so immediate, 2-3 minutes, that I barely had time to remove the dogs' collars. Here are the girls 45 minutes after the bite

And Cherry Pie 6 hours later

Aline
http://zzfarms.com

snips · Post by **snips** » Mon May 31, 2010 1:03 pm

My heart breaks for you...What an awful thing to have to watch.....Praying they make it without complications..Can you get any Lasix for swelling and fluid relief?

mountaindogs · Post by **mountaindogs** » Mon May 31, 2010 3:21 pm

you can also try ice packs. Jed was bitten on the ear and the tissue is weaker there and the swelling was risking spiltting the skin, the vet told me to wrap ice packs on his head for 20 minutes every 6 hours or so...

Steriods, like prednisone, help wi the reaction. Alot of vets resist them now, because they increase the risk of infection, but from watching dogs at the clinic, all the dogs that got the steroids improve faster and have less swelling.

Definately antibiotics if you can get a hold of them! Your vet can call antibiotics (and steriods) into walgreens or walmart. The contact area of the bite will maybe slough, and the wound can get nasty quick without them. And flush the eyes with saline if you can. It'll help keep the infection out of the eyes. Antibiotic ointment or drops would be better, but I bet they HURT when you touch them near the eyes.

Also watch the blood clotting factors. Sometimes life threatening bites start okay but the clotting factors drop after 12 hours and Vit K1 has to be started. Rare, but just watch for bloody discharge from anywhere else besides the snake bite area and pale gums. Just in Case.

I guess maybe you know all that, but just hope something helps.

Hope it improves! My thoughts are with you, for sure.

txgsp · Post by **txgsp** » Mon May 31, 2010 4:00 pm

Man, seeing your pups like that is terrible. I hope they have a speedy recovery and no other side effects... I can barely look at those pictures.

gary · Post by **gary** » Mon May 31, 2010 5:52 pm

HI ALINE,

I have one Weim that hunts Rattle Snakes on our ranch and kills them,....Crazy but cannot stop her.
She has been bitten 8 times,all in head and neck.
Vet tells me that if the bit is in body or chest that I may loose her.

P.S....Aline,how does a Memorial Day Weim mother feed 13 Blue Buck/Molly pups with out help?

nitrex · Post by **nitrex** » Mon May 31, 2010 8:15 pm

zzweims wrote:I saved the snake--or what was left of it---and put my remaining dogs through an impromptu snake breaking clinic. I know it's better to use a live snake, but I never want to get that close to a live rattler again! I had to wade through the brush shooting at the sound to get it. Must have unloaded half a box of shells

Aline
http://zzfarms.com

I hope I never make you mad!!!!

Glad to here some words of hope from you. Please keep us updated.

Nitrex

bullseyebill · Post by **bullseyebill** » Mon May 31, 2010 8:24 pm

Sorry to hear about the dogs getting bitten, glad they made it through the night. Hopefully the pup doesn't lose her eye or and there are no additional complications. It breaks my heart to see them so swollen. We'll be thinking of you. Keep us posted.

Cindy & Bill

Bird Dog 67 · Post by **Bird Dog 67** » Tue Jun 01, 2010 7:58 am

Ouch!!! Sorry to hear and see that your girls were in such misery Aline. You know I'm hoping for a speedy and complete recovery. Please keep us updated.

zzweims · Post by **zzweims** » Tue Jun 01, 2010 2:02 pm

Last night, both girls lost all bladder control so back to the vet. Other than slightly elevated liver levels, all bloodwork was normal. Vet feels the constant peeing, drooling, and higher liver levels are due to the meds and not the snake bite. The swelling has gone down considerably--or rather it's drooped to their necks, chest and fore-legs. The good news is that it has gone down around Cherry Pie's eye. Our original concern was the intense pressure on the eyeball that was pushing it back in her head. Now we are concerned about a big ulcer that's developed on the eye. She clearly took a direct hit. But cornea and pupil look good and she can see. The vet feels that the ulcer is a better problem to have. So we are hopeful.

Aline
http://zzfarms.com

Post by **Greg Jennings** » Tue Jun 01, 2010 2:05 pm

We're thinking about you and the girls, Aline. Hope all turns out well.

zzweims · Post by **zzweims** » Tue Jun 01, 2010 2:07 pm

53 hours later. Cherry Pie left, Mohawk right

Mohawk. You can see that the snake just missed her eye (unlike poor Cherry Pie). Puncture wounds just above and below the eye

Aline
http://zzfarms.com

fuzznut · Post by **fuzznut** » Tue Jun 01, 2010 3:15 pm

Man O Man... that stinks! So glad you are seeing progress and best wishes for a full recovery for them both!

A friend of mine has had several dogs bitten by Cottonmouths in NC. Lots of swelling as well, but all have come out of it fine. Scarey!!!!!!!!
Fuzz

fishvik · Post by **fishvik** » Tue Jun 01, 2010 3:42 pm

zzweims, Sorry to hear about your pups, I hope they recover quickly. Looking at the distance between the fang marks on the dog that was hit below the left eye and the fact he got venom into both dogs, that must have been a big snake. I would guess at least a 5 footer. Was it an Eastern Diamondback?

zzweims · Post by **zzweims** » Tue Jun 01, 2010 4:00 pm

fishvik wrote:zzweims, Sorry to hear about your pups, I hope they recover quickly. Looking at the distance between the fang marks on the dog that was hit below the left eye and the fact he got venom into both dogs, that must have been a big snake. I would guess at least a 5 footer. Was it an Eastern Diamondback?

No. It was a canebrake, about 3.5-4ft long. Can't say for sure as he ended up in three pieces after I unleashed my fury on him

Aline
http://zzfarms.com

Maurice · Post by **Maurice** » Tue Jun 01, 2010 5:49 pm

Dang that looks rough, sure hope they recover fast and complete. Glad I don't have rattlers in my area.

Mo

shanebevel@gmail.com · Post by **shanebevel@gmail.com** » Tue Jun 01, 2010 9:43 pm

gpblitz wrote:
zzweims wrote:No. It was a canebrake, about 3.5-4ft long.
What is a canebrake?

Timber Rattler. Which BTW is one of the snakes covered by the Red Rock Biologics rattlesnake vaccine. My grandfather gives his bulldogs the vaccine every year. In Texas and with that squashed face, they wouldn't make it 5 mins with that kind of swelling.

Shane

Maverick57 · Post by **Maverick57** » Tue Jun 01, 2010 9:48 pm

I googled a canebrake, in the States like N-S Carolina aCanebrake is another name for a Timber Rattler.

Aline- I am sending all my prayers for Mohawk & Cherry Pie Just looking at them both reminds me so much of Taylor, Just Beautiful Girls. Please keep us updated.

zzweims · Post by **zzweims** » Wed Jun 02, 2010 10:08 am

shanebevel@gmail.com wrote:
gpblitz wrote:
zzweims wrote:No. It was a canebrake, about 3.5-4ft long.
What is a canebrake?
Timber Rattler. Which BTW is one of the snakes covered by the Red Rock Biologics rattlesnake vaccine. My grandfather gives his bulldogs the vaccine every year. In Texas and with that squashed face, they wouldn't make it 5 mins with that kind of swelling.

Shane

Scientifically, the timber rattler and the canebrake are the same species. But the northern variety (croalus horridus horridus, aka 'timber rattler') differs significantly from the southern variety (crotalus horridus atricaudatus, aka 'canebrake') in terms of appearance, habitat, habits, and venom.

"A 1994 study examining venom characteristics of this species with respect to geographic location showed some populations in South Carolina and Georgia possess a particular toxin which gives these localities of Timber rattlesnakes especially potent venom (Glenn, J.L., et al. 1994). This toxin, called "canebrake toxin", conveys neurotoxic properties to venom. Timber populations frequently possess hemotoxic / tissue-destructive properties, and severe muscle damage is characteristic of envenomation by this species (Carroll, R.R, et al. 1997). These snakes from our region (southeastern / coastal SC and GA) may possess venom with significant neurotoxic and hemotoxic / tissue-destructive abilities."

Not only is the canebrake more deadly than the timber rattler, it is also more aggressive.

I'm still not convinced that the vaccine would be affective against canebrake toxin, but after this experience, I'm willing to buy a tray and give it a try.

Aline
http://zzfarms.com

highcotton · Post by **highcotton** » Wed Jun 02, 2010 12:25 pm

We have timber rattlers here in NW Alabama. We call them velvet tails because the last two or three inches of their tail (next to the rattles) looks like black velvet.

With benedryl and anti biotics dogs can usually survive a head bite. A bite to the body often means the dog will die before you get to the vet.

southernblues · Post by **southernblues** » Wed Jun 02, 2010 6:48 pm

highcotton wrote:
With benedryl and anti biotics dogs can usually survive a head bite. A bite to the body often means the dog will die before you get to the vet.

Forgive my stupidity but why is a bite to body worse than bite to head?

asc · Post by **asc** » Wed Jun 02, 2010 8:07 pm

I hope your girls come thru ok... thats bad stuff.... Luck.

Maverick57 · Post by **Maverick57** » Thu Jun 03, 2010 7:04 am

Aline,

How are Mohawk & Cherry Pie ? I do hope that they are doing better. Just cheacking in on you. Keep prayers going your way.

Lisa

zzweims · Post by **zzweims** » Sun Jun 06, 2010 8:43 am

It's been one week. Other than a small scar and a little swelling in chest and front legs, Mohawk has recovered completely! Cherry Pie's energy has improved and she has even less swelling than Mohawk Except for the eye, I expect her to make a complete recovery too!! Here's a close up of the eye. If you look closely, you can see the puncture just below the pupil. We are now treating it with a serum made from her own blood in hopes of minimizing the damage, but there will likely always be a scar on the eyeball.

Aline
http://zzfarms.com

Post by **Sharon** » Sun Jun 06, 2010 9:53 am

That is terrible. We don't have the birds or land you folks do down there but at least we don't have those snakes - just one poisonous rattlesnake that lives in a small part of Ontario.

AHGSP · Post by **AHGSP** » Sun Jun 06, 2010 11:03 am

Been watching this and hoping for the best for your puppers Aline. I'm sure you know how lucky you were that it has turned out well so far. When we have a Timber or Eastern DB hit a dog up here in MD/WV/VA, the results are usually permanent and rapid. Not too many make it to the Vet. The Copperheads we more frequently run into, we usually just give Benedryl and a heavy dose of Antibiotics, as they don't seem to carry near the negative consequence for the dogs.

Might be worth talking to your Vet to see if they would provide you with pre- measured syringes, but when I had a 8 month old, 35# pup hit in the face by a Prairie Rattler in SD last Fall, the Vet in Pierre dumped a heavy dose of Steroids and a heavy dose of Antibiotics in her within an hour after the strike. She looked just about the same as your pups, but was back to her old self in less than a week. The fact I was able to get behind the strike and push a lot of the Venom back out of the wound helped dramatically in his opinion, with such a small pup and at that point and his bigger concerns were swelling/sloughing choking off her airway and his biggest concern was secondary infection. Snakes mouths are regular cesspools of Bacteria.

Really hope that eye heals up and you can get them back to doing what they love. I don't normally comment on injured dogs and memorials too much, as it just chokes me up and twist my stomach to see/hear of dogs injured or lost.

Maverick57 · Post by **Maverick57** » Sun Jun 06, 2010 9:57 pm

Aline,

That is GREAT news , I am so thank full they will be ok .

BigShooter · Post by **BigShooter** » Sun Jun 06, 2010 10:21 pm

Sharon wrote:That is terrible. We don't have the birds or land you folks do down there but at least we don't have those snakes - just one poisonous rattlesnake that lives in a small part of Ontario.

.....but you sure have lots of rattlers up to 10-12' long in the Canadian prairies!