Looking for breed suggestions

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jlamere74
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Looking for breed suggestions

Post by jlamere74 » Tue Jun 08, 2010 6:45 pm

I was hoping to get some help with selecting a breed of gun dog. I have always used Labs in the past but because of me current living situation they are out of the question because my townhouse I am renting has a 40 pound limit. I primarily upland hunting but occasionally will hunt ducks and geese. Is there a dog out there that fits my requirements??

Thank you for your help

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Munster
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Re: Looking for breed suggestions

Post by Munster » Tue Jun 08, 2010 7:09 pm

I think there are a few out there for you. Brits and French brits are a versitile hunting dog. I dont know a ton about them but I am sure someone here can give you more info. Small Munsterlanders are nice dogs too. I am getting yelled at to get off the computer so I cant go into them but google those breeds and I am sure there will be a few others. Good luck
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zzweims
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Re: Looking for breed suggestions

Post by zzweims » Tue Jun 08, 2010 7:54 pm

Boykin Spaniel!

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CherrystoneWeims
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Re: Looking for breed suggestions

Post by CherrystoneWeims » Wed Jun 09, 2010 11:39 am

I second the Boykin Spaniel!
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Ruffshooter
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Re: Looking for breed suggestions

Post by Ruffshooter » Wed Jun 09, 2010 1:49 pm

The Boykin seems to fit what style you are used to but the French Brit is a nice pointing upland dog that can retrieve ducks as well down to high 30's or so depending on the dog.ImageImage
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ymepointer
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Re: Looking for breed suggestions

Post by ymepointer » Wed Jun 09, 2010 1:51 pm

english springer spanel(Field bred) english cocker(field bred) might do as well

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birddogsunlimited
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Re: Looking for breed suggestions

Post by birddogsunlimited » Wed Jun 09, 2010 4:51 pm

if you did some looking you could possibly find some of the pointing labs out there that fit in that range i know of a couple people have have some that are right around 40lbs
rossi ann. gsp
mavrick gsp
willow gsp
Charlie yellow lab
kimber yellow lab
barrett yellow lab
mikey choc. lab r.i.p buddy

skitchen
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Re: Looking for breed suggestions

Post by skitchen » Wed Jun 09, 2010 8:30 pm

I would have to say a Boykin Spaniel. A good friend of mine has one and it is one of the hardest hunting dogs I have ever seen. Hunts close and steady, and the temperment is great for living in small areas. His is a 19 inch male, and he uses it for doves, pheasants, and ducks, and even rabbits (sometimes). I would imagine it wouldn't have a problem with geese, but I wouldn't expect it to bust through ice like a lab. I heard they aren't great cold weather dogs, but he has never had a problem with the cold winters in Ohio bothering his dog. Hope this helps!

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Munster
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Re: Looking for breed suggestions

Post by Munster » Wed Jun 09, 2010 9:00 pm

Small Munsterlander fits the bill too. Great in the house and with family. Mine is 19 inches tall but thinks she is a big dog. Hunts hard and is very cooperative and hunts ducks and has retrieved geese for us.
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Mahamari
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Re: Looking for breed suggestions

Post by Mahamari » Wed Jun 09, 2010 9:57 pm

Munster wrote:Small Munsterlander fits the bill too. Great in the house and with family. Mine is 19 inches tall but thinks she is a big dog. Hunts hard and is very cooperative and hunts ducks and has retrieved geese for us.

Munster,

You have peaked my interest into these Small Munsterlander. A 19" dog that retrieves geese 8) Could you please post some pics of this type of dog and tell us more about them?

Thanks,
A Small Munsterlander Novice

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Munster
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Re: Looking for breed suggestions

Post by Munster » Wed Jun 09, 2010 10:03 pm

:lol: Funny! I actually donthave any of the geese, but maybe I should take some pictures. BTW, besides being a little squirely tonight, he looked really good! If they werent so dam ugly I would probably buy one! :lol:

Image

Image

Image

Image
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Mahamari
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Re: Looking for breed suggestions

Post by Mahamari » Thu Jun 10, 2010 12:31 am

Is that a Small Munserlander pointing in the last pic?

:mrgreen:

Mahamari

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crackerd
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Re: Looking for breed suggestions

Post by crackerd » Thu Jun 10, 2010 3:41 am

Of course, it's always possible a Boykin might go over that 40-pound limit by a hair--by having a native Canada on the scales with it.

Image

Anything else,

Image

well under, especially a female.

As for retrieving geese, 15-16 inches and the right distribution gives a good equilibrium for toting them.

Image

MG

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Re: Looking for breed suggestions

Post by jimbo&rooster » Fri Jun 11, 2010 12:18 pm

Im not very familiar with the breed but you might look into the Nova Scotia Toller. I dont think they are very big but Ive heard good things about them. I dont think you can really go wrong with either the Springer or the Boykin though.
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Re: Looking for breed suggestions

Post by PntrRookie » Fri Jun 11, 2010 1:40 pm

American Water Spaniel - http://www.dalecreekgundogs.com/dcgdawspaniels.html Excellent water and upland dogs.

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Re: Looking for breed suggestions

Post by FLocker » Mon Jun 14, 2010 9:00 am

Boykins are such a fascinating breed! From what i understand about breeding, genetic load, and the pressures of dog shows and trials on a breed, they should be be about the best choice out there for consistently good flush/retreive dogs. But they have a lot of issues in real life. Consider:

Their studbook was not closed until the 1980's, so they should not be partuculalry inbred compared to many other rare gun dogs from europe (see the Vizsla in Austraila that sired 10% of all puppies in one recent year, insane!)

There are currently no "show" boykins, bred with concern for looks alone. This alone is a really big deal that should be a major selling point of these dogs.

These dogs have traditionally been owned by hunters, not ultra-competitive field trialers who all want puppies from the same winning stud at the same time. So in theory, a lot of good, usefeul, well mannered hunting dogs get to sire litters every year. The genetic "bottleneck" sometimes seen in trial labs, GSPs, and EPs from over-used sires isnt there.

I mean, exept for closing the stud book, you couldn't design a better scenario for developiong a breed of consistently useful dogs. But in real life, Boykins have hip displasia, eye issues, and skin allergies just like many of the spaniel breeds that have had their stud books closed for a lot longer. If you can't tell, i am a huge advocate for opening registires for rare breeds and providing limited registrations so that out-crossed dogs can eventually make it back into the breed's fold . As breeds split into bench/show strains, and the COIs of European dogs get to the point where lifespans are getting get cut short, I think that "purity" loses a lot of its cachet.

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Re: Looking for breed suggestions

Post by CherrystoneWeims » Mon Jun 14, 2010 3:56 pm

There are currently no "show" boykins, bred with concern for looks alone. This alone is a really big deal that should be a major selling point of these dogs.
That's actually quite untrue. There are several kennels that are now breeding for "show" boykins. They were accepted as being able to be shown in AKC approx. two years ago.

I live in "Boykin Central" where Boykins originated. It is our state dog and where the Boykin Spaniel Society is headquartered. There are some health issues in the breed just like in any other breed.

I highly recommend a Boykin though for someone living in a townhome such as this fellow. I have a friend who has one that is almost 2 yrs. old. This guy lives in approx. 800 sq.ft.

I've often thought that once my Weims get too much for me to handle I may get into Boykins. Closer hunting and smaller dogs would be great once I can't race around in the field!
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Re: Looking for breed suggestions

Post by FLocker » Tue Jun 15, 2010 11:03 am

Pam,

If that is true, it's heartbreaking. How do these people who are breeding non-workling working dogs have the slightest idea what is needed in a competent spaniel? I bet they are huge and dull. If you dont USE your brood stock, how do you know what is good or bad about them? There are nice, calm bench bred springers and cockers that one could choose, without trying to get a lobotomized hunting dog, and diluting one of the few real working spaniels left.

Could you post a link to one of these kennels? I promise i will resist the urge to contact them and recommend they switch to English Bulldogs or Pekingeses.

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Greg Jennings
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Re: Looking for breed suggestions

Post by Greg Jennings » Tue Jun 15, 2010 11:11 am

It will cause a split of some magnitude. Hunting lines, show lines and dual lines. The Britts and GSPs, just to name two, have it and the breeds are doing OK. Not my idea of a perfect world, but I didn't have any trouble finding the kind of dog I was looking for.

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Re: Looking for breed suggestions

Post by FLocker » Tue Jun 15, 2010 11:54 am

Splits are terrible. Someone has hijacked a breed, and is stamping out "caricatures" bred against a physical standard, who are not required to do a single thing more than run in a circle, and not bite the judge. And when one of these dogs wins a show title, he covers two dozen bitches in over the next two years and the genetic load become crushing.

Look at what has happened to Golden Retrievers. Those white, heavy-boned dogs, with zero retrieving instinct that look like bear cubs their whole life are really a shame.

How so those of you that do GSP dual championships stand to be in the same room with fanciers who breed English Bulldogs, miniature dachshaunds, Great Danes, and all the brachycephalic breeds?

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Greg Jennings
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Re: Looking for breed suggestions

Post by Greg Jennings » Tue Jun 15, 2010 12:17 pm

I personally think splits are inevitable. I try not to force my preferences on anyone else and hope they won't with me. I sometimes don't mind a good debate about it, though ;) .

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Re: Looking for breed suggestions

Post by FLocker » Tue Jun 15, 2010 12:51 pm

Not everything has to be moral relativsm. Sometimes it's ok to say "we are right and you are wrong".

When you breed brain-fogged, inbred, examples of a dogs who could not possibly do the work they were designed to do (even if that work is to be a companion that can breathe freely and give birth without a c-section) you are "less good" for the breed than guys who breed with a commitment to healthy, long-lived animals that can actually do their intended work all day long, for many seasons.

Not every dog needs to be a crazy field bred enegizer bunny that bounces off the walls when not in the field. There are amy conpanion breeds that are healthy and manageable. I just wish that breeders breedingh companion aniamls would not take working breeds and breed them for show alone.

How about they focus their energy on making a healthier Cavalier King Charles, instead of worsening working breeds for the sake of show ribbions or an attemt to create a low-energy family pet.

Look at this thing!!!! (stolen from retrieverman) WTF is it?..a bear, a puppy, a drawing? I honestly can't tell:
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mcbosco
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Re: Looking for breed suggestions

Post by mcbosco » Tue Jun 15, 2010 1:12 pm

FLocker wrote:Not everything has to be moral relativsm. Sometimes it's ok to say "we are right and you are wrong".

When you breed brain-fogged, inbred, examples of a dogs who could not possibly do the work they were designed to do (even if that work is to be a companion that can breathe freely and give birth without a c-section) you are "less good" for the breed than guys who breed with a commitment to healthy, long-lived animals that can actually do their intended work all day long, for many seasons.

Not every dog needs to be a crazy field bred enegizer bunny that bounces off the walls when not in the field. There are amy conpanion breeds that are healthy and manageable. I just wish that breeders breedingh companion aniamls would not take working breeds and breed them for show alone.

How about they focus their energy on making a healthier Cavalier King Charles, instead of worsening working breeds for the sake of show ribbions or an attemt to create a low-energy family pet.

Look at this thing!!!! (stolen from retrieverman) WTF is it?..a bear, a puppy, a drawing? I honestly can't tell:

Have you ever seen an "Apartment Labrador"? I see them in NYC almost everyday. 4 or 5 inches of leg, and I am not joking.

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Re: Looking for breed suggestions

Post by ezzy333 » Tue Jun 15, 2010 4:45 pm

FLocker wrote:Not everything has to be moral relativsm. Sometimes it's ok to say "we are right and you are wrong".

When you breed brain-fogged, inbred, examples of a dogs who could not possibly do the work they were designed to do (even if that work is to be a companion that can breathe freely and give birth without a c-section) you are "less good" for the breed than guys who breed with a commitment to healthy, long-lived animals that can actually do their intended work all day long, for many seasons.

Not every dog needs to be a crazy field bred enegizer bunny that bounces off the walls when not in the field. There are amy conpanion breeds that are healthy and manageable. I just wish that breeders breedingh companion aniamls would not take working breeds and breed them for show alone.

How about they focus their energy on making a healthier Cavalier King Charles, instead of worsening working breeds for the sake of show ribbions or an attemt to create a low-energy family pet.

Look at this thing!!!! (stolen from retrieverman) WTF is it?..a bear, a puppy, a drawing? I honestly can't tell:
Its always nice to have one decide what is good breeding and what is not and then expect everyone else to follow his lead.

I can't see where show breeding that is just breeding the physical characteristics of a breed has changed the breed anymore than the people who breed for just field or just temperament, or in some cases just puppies. Is the narrowness of one focus as to what makes a good dog that has led to changes within the breed instead of breeding for the complete package. But some just can't see beyond the narrow focus of what they deem as important. A breed standard should cover looks as well as performance testing to insure that they are an animal that meets those essential requirements and without tht it is hard to tell where some of the breedings will wander to.

Ezzy
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Greg Jennings
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Re: Looking for breed suggestions

Post by Greg Jennings » Tue Jun 15, 2010 5:05 pm

Personally, I wish the sporting breeds had a field component to the "CH" title, but I'm not going to get twisted up about it. I've got things that I actually can control to worry about.

If someone just loves Boykins and they want to breed them without doing field work, who the heck am I to tell them that they're doing something heinous? Now, what they do to certain breeds that deliberately makes them unhealthy (can't breathe, breed, etc) for a trend in the show world? That's I do consider unethical.

Take it FWIW.

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crackerd
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Re: Looking for breed suggestions

Post by crackerd » Tue Jun 15, 2010 5:31 pm

FLocker, if anybody's breeding Boykins for show, it's a novelty. That would come as no surprise, given what conformation people are prone to do with exaggerating a breed's appearance and mishandling its purpose. Fortunately, neither may happen on the whole with Boykins. First of all, the earlier poster was wrong about their status in AKC--Boykins only got full-fledged AKC recognition (if you can call the show ring "recognition") Jan. 1, so there's not been a whole lot of time to mismanage, misguide or distort the breed (yet). Secondly, the Boykin Spaniel Society, where working Boykins are registered, will remain the true parent club of the breed--not some splinter group that shanghaied them into AKC, doing so with no knowledge of or experience afield with Boykins.

Anybody who wants a working Boykin, or a well-bred Boykin with health clearances that's intended to be a working gundog, will know to go through the BSS for a puppy. Of course, now that they're AKC, it may evolve into a "Drahthaar v GWP-same dog-ain't-they-so-what's-the-big-deal?" scenario, but as with Drahts educated owners or owners who intend to work their dogs will know the difference and choose from working lines.

Of course the working lines could also show, and "succeed" in the show ring--or could until the show fancy perpetuates the inevitable split by distorting and frou-frouing the breed. The beauty of it is, Boykins already have a frou-frou look, well, I call them mud poodles--but don't let the exterior fool you as to what lies beneath it. The sad reality is show judges have no way of knowing, nor do they care, about what lies beneath. But I would bank on the Boykin withstanding the show fancy's wrongheaded remake, sooner or later.

Greg, while there's no "field component" to the CH title per se, many if not all breeds do have the working dog certificate, from WC to WCX (working certificate excellent). Some of those titles actually have a little teeth to them, but again they're irrespective conformation despite the conformation contingent's fervent belief that a WC, which is about 103 percent more easily attainable than even a junior hunter title, indicates a dual dog. That's when it becomes laughable.

There's a widespread belief here that British gundogs cannot become a show champion without first attaining field trial champion (FTCh) or winning a trial (FTW). It's absolute fallacy--the chasm between working and show abroad is far wider even than what we have here.

MG

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Greg Jennings
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Re: Looking for breed suggestions

Post by Greg Jennings » Tue Jun 15, 2010 6:33 pm

crackerd wrote:Greg, while there's no "field component" to the CH title per se, many if not all breeds do have the working dog certificate, from WC to WCX (working certificate excellent). Some of those titles actually have a little teeth to them, but again they're irrespective conformation despite the conformation contingent's fervent belief that a WC, which is about 103 percent more easily attainable than even a junior hunter title, indicates a dual dog. That's when it becomes laughable.
I'm not familiar with them. 'Bout all I consider "dual" is CH/MH, DC or variants with preference to the DC. I'm a proponent of the dual dog, I just don't have time and money to pursue the DC. I have kids to develop, send to college and get launched into life.

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Re: Looking for breed suggestions

Post by CherrystoneWeims » Tue Jun 15, 2010 9:11 pm

First of all, the earlier poster was wrong about their status in AKC--Boykins only got full-fledged AKC recognition (if you can call the show ring "recognition") Jan. 1, so there's not been a whole lot of time to mismanage, misguide or distort the breed (yet). Secondly, the Boykin Spaniel Society, where working Boykins are registered, will remain the true parent club of the breed--not some splinter group that shanghaied them into AKC, doing so with no knowledge of or experience afield with Boykins.

Anybody who wants a working Boykin, or a well-bred Boykin with health clearances that's intended to be a working gundog, will know to go through the BSS for a puppy. Of course, now that they're AKC, it may evolve into a "Drahthaar v GWP-same dog-ain't-they-so-what's-the-big-deal?" scenario, but as with Drahts educated owners or owners who intend to work their dogs will know the difference and choose from working lines.
The AKC recognized the breed and it was first shown Jan 1, 2009. I watched the two liasons show their dogs in Hilton Head, SC in April 2009 and in fact know one of them very well as she lives nearby. I also watched them being shown right here in Charleston in Jan 2009. If you read the following link from the AKC it will tell you what is allowed and disallowed. I've known quite a few curly headed Boykins who have done VERY well at the national level and the Society has not penalized them. I had the pleasure of watching The Mule run at the Nationals and he's one heck of a dog! Several of the BSS members are dual registering their dogs including Kim P. I have been seeing her at quite a few shows lately.
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Re: Looking for breed suggestions

Post by jlamere74 » Wed Jun 16, 2010 8:19 am

Have you ever seen an "Apartment Labrador"? I see them in NYC almost everyday. 4 or 5 inches of leg, and I am not joking.
My uncle had one of these labs a long time ago, wasn;t any special breed just a recessive genetic trait the dog had. None of her liter mates had the problem and it didnt effect her as a hunter any actually if anything it helped her when looking for ducks in the reeds

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