What pointing breed has the most natural retrieve?

[Hookadooka BirdDogs]

The best retriever of dead game I ever owned was my Gordon Setter, Sally. Nothing ever got away or couldn't be retrieved. She was the definition of tenacious and came by it natural.
The funniest retrieve I ever witnessed was when a "covey" of five ruffed grouse went up basically at the same. I killed the first bird out and my Britt went out and was retrieving it. The second bird out, I hit but it started spiraling straight up in the air and landed on a tree limb. As my Britt was retrieving the first bird the second grouse fell out of the tree dead and landed on top of the Britt's head. He finished retrieving the bird to hand and turned around without me saying anything and retrieved the second grouse to hand. Awesome! We were hunting alone and had three 5 bird flushes and ended the day with 38 flushes and three in the bag. In Ohio no less.
Tom

[CherrystoneWeims]

I will have to say that Weimaraners are VERY natural retrievers. So much so that at times it can interfere with their point.

I haven't had issues with the point in my dogs but they have tremendous retrieve drive in them and because of this will retrieve from water at very young ages. My dogs love to constantly be carrying something in their mouths while they are in the house.

[birddog1968]

EP, Miller line bred, 8 weeks old.

[gunner]

My experience while training professionally many years ago suggest that as young dogs most of the various breeds retrieving abilities were pretty much equal, It did seem that as they matured many natural talents were often screwed up by their owner's hands, particularly pointing skills.

I've always owned e pointerrs of the hottest field trial stock available for my own dogs. I like the natural attributes that those breedings bring to the forefront and while retrieving has not been tested for well over a century in traditional stakes, the ability to retrieve is present.
I don't believe there is any difference between the retrieving abilities between the so called "hunting stock", several generations removed from all-age lineage, (it would be difficult to find any pointer too many generations removed from horseback winning dogs) and close-up all-age, and shooting dog breeding.

I'd say the biggest fault that amateurs do to their pointing breed puppies is to put the buggy before the horse in the pup's training by doing far more retrieving and sight pointing parlor trick exercises with the youngsters.

[bhulisa]

Of the pointing breeds I have had exposure to, the GSP and GWP/DD seem to be the most natural. Some Pointers have surprised me in that regard as well, but they are not consistent across the breed, at least in this country.

I define a good natural retriever as a dog that will pick up nearly anything you throw from an early age, from dummies to game, with a clean pickup and good carry. They like to carry. Even better, they are not too difficult to develop a good delivery from. They retain the retrieving desire for dummies and such even after exposed to hunting and live birds, and, as Dave Q pointed out, after they have been broken out and steadied to wing and shot. They have a high perseverance on the retrieve as well, won't give up on the search and will track a wounded bird for long distances when required.
Trudi

Here's a 9 week old pup from a litter with a very natural, strong retrieve:

Edel-Land1.jpg

Edel-Land3.jpg

Edel-Land4.jpg

[bhulisa]

And here's the same pup as above, in the water at 9 weeks.

Edel-Water1.jpg

Edel-Water2.jpg

Edel-Water3.jpg

[birddog1968]

no matter the natural retrieve, all mine get forced when the time comes....

[gittrdonebritts]

no matter the natural retrieve, all mine get forced when the time comes....

+ 1 to that it !

[crackerd]

And here's the same pup as above, in the water at 9 weeks.

And that, bhulisa, is a thing of beauty - cracking! The right introduction (to birds and water) and not a second too soon - or too late. If the handlers who come to me with versatile pups ("pups" of 6-8 mos. old) that won't open their mouths for a pheasant, much less a duck, happen to see this little educational tour for birds and water - please let the scales fall from your eyes for when you get the next pup.

MG

[ezzy333]

I'd say the biggest fault that amateurs do to their pointing breed puppies is to put the buggy before the horse in the pup's training by doing far more retrieving and sight pointing parlor trick exercises with the youngsters.

I have to agree. With all of the silly games we dilute the natural instincts or mis direct them till the pup is confused just what it is supposed to do instead of just waiting to use the ability the way it was intended with maybe a little tweek to polish it.

Ezzy

[crackerd]

Those being the "silly games" that don't require retrieves in the first place? Yah, could see how that would dilute natural instincts. But letting a pup pick up and put something in its mouth that comes natural in the first place wouldn't - do any "diluting," that is. :roll:

MG

[birddog1968]

Funny my lil pup which was bred (long term) for "silly games" (AF AA horseback) , hasn't become "diluted" and had all the retrieve desire any dog owner could ask for.

But hey it sounded good I guess....

[JKP]

There is retrieving and then there is retrieving....but any pup that has the natural drive to get game in its mouth and the natural tendency to come back in the direction of the handler has the tools...how far you develop them and on what time schedule is up to the owner and his/her needs in a dog. The only ingredient that I find missing in some high powered field dogs is the ability to be calm, patient while waiting for the retrieve...in a duck blind, on stand during a drive, dove hunting, etc. There are instincts and then there is temperament/control....can be enforced..better when the calmness is in the dog.

[ezzy333]

Funny my lil pup which was bred (long term) for "silly games" (AF AA horseback) , hasn't become "diluted" and had all the retrieve desire any dog owner could ask for.

But hey it sounded good I guess....

The silly games I was referring to are all of the stuff some do with their young pups. I have never had a problem when I waited to work on retrieving when they were big enough and old enough to find and retrieve a bird.

Dummies, bumpers,bumpers with wings tied to them, and bumpers with wings and bottled scent on them and then we get into the frisbee and whatever.

Ezzy

[birddog1968]

Gotcha Ezzy, My mistake.

[Grange]

I like the dog to sit by my side and deliver the bird to hand. It isn't imperative, but it sure is cool.

That's how my setter retrieves. She learned that from my lab.

[peregrine]

To be honest its about the bloodline and early conditioning with some breeds. The best versatile gundog without a doubt is the German shorthair,but even that breed due to too much focus on breeding run and less on versatility,can lose retrieve.
I have a setter that can retrieve and here 'can' is operative. In human terms its "ok if I really have too",not a "let me please!!!! type situation.But from a pup i got her to carry it is in her but not strong..
As for brits, pointers it's too painfull to watch.......
Nope here for a working hunting gundog ,not a plain retriever,the GSP is totally natural.
We have 7 week old pups that go into water and retrieve a duck almost their size with no begging pleading and cringing. On land 95% of 7 week olds will pick up pigeons and run around with them quite happily. Some cuties even bring it right back.

[Ryman Gun Dog]

Birddogz,
One of my friends has a Chessie he uses for Grouse hunting, and the old boy points, he has no equal at retrieving anything that is shot, never will. However the Weimar and the Small Munsterlander have most all pointing dogs beat when it comes to instinctive retrieving, course these are Versatile dog with serious tracking/retrieving genetic imprints. Long ago Mr Barnett who owned & operated the Wetobe Kennel in South Texas, certified his Weimar Breed stock as retrievers. He and his wife would drive the lab guys crazy, showing up at the retrieving events. I purchased one of these incredible German Weimar dogs from them in 1972, just before Mr Barnett passed away, to this date I have never seen another dog except a Chessie, who could instinctively hunt and retrieve to hand any kind of fur or feather like these partiular Weimars could. Sam won the open Shoot to Retrieve field trials at FT Hood twice and as part of his prize the rules committee had a female Weimar dog flown in from Germany. His name was Samual J Coop SB385953 out of CH WETOBE'S BLUE BRUTUS SA468484 & WETOBE'S DUSTY MINERVA SA978033 . I have seen many real good
gun dogs in my hunting/training life time, I was lucky enough to own a dog of a life time, and he was a Weimar. Everytime I see a Weimar dog in the field today that can not hunt, I remember what great dogs they once were, and that I owned one of the very best that ever lived.
RGD/Dave

[ElhewPointer]

EP, Miller line bred, 8 weeks old.

Good looking dog. But the pup isn't 8 weeks old. Maybe on papers.

[nikegundog]

Ryman wrote

One of my friends has a Chessie he uses for Grouse hunting, and the old boy points, he has no equal at retrieving anything that is shot, never will

I purchased one of these incredible German Weimar dogs from them in 1972, just before Mr Barnett passed away, to this date I have never seen another dog except a Chessie, who could instinctively hunt and retrieve to hand any kind of fur or feather like these partiular Weimars could.

A pointing Chessie with no equel, and Weimar's retriever's better than any other dog. I'll have what he's drinking. On another note I hunted 10 years ago with a pointing lab that had the best instinctive point than any dog bar none, and ran bigger lines the champion EP's. To bad that they wouldn't let him compete.

[Quill Gordon]

I've had Labs my whole life and just picked up a GSP back in September. I'm impressed with the natural ability he has shown. I threw very few bumpers for him as compared to early work with my Labs, maybe three a day around the house. I figured we would get serious about it after the Upland season was over. Right around five months he just naturally started bringin back Chukars from the bottom of canyons and by the end of the season was bringing back every bird

[Ron R]

I hunted 10 years ago with a pointing lab that had the best instinctive point than any dog bar none, and ran bigger lines the champion EP's.

Common Man...That souds pretty far fetched. "More point than any dog bar none" and runs bigger than EP's :roll: .

To bad that they wouldn't let him compete.

He could compete against pointers in AF or NSTRA. Good luck with that.

[crackerd]

pointing Chessie with no equel, and Weimar's retriever's better than any other dog. I'll have what he's drinking. On another note I hunted 10 years ago with a pointing lab that had the best instinctive point than any dog bar none, and ran bigger lines the champion EP's.

Think you already are, and by the cask - though it would seem to be 20% Trappist ale going down by the mega-stein for the guy touting Weims.

MG

[Ryman Gun Dog]

Gentlemen,
I fully understand your doubting ways, but at one time there were some great German bred Weimar dogs in the USA, I doubt very seriously if many left alive today have ever seen one. It a real shame what has been done to this once great animal.
RGD/Dave

[birddog1968]

EP, Miller line bred, 8 weeks old.




Good looking dog. But the pup isn't 8 weeks old. Maybe on papers.

Dang ya caught me


She's 9 1/2 weeks

[longarm]

While I don't feel qualified to address the original question asked, I would like to point out, as the thread had drifted in this direction, that for some of us retrieving is essential, not a nicety.
Dan

[nikegundog]

Longarm, after looking at those photos I envy you, however after a day on those hills I imagine I would change my mind.
\

[Oscar]

Birddogz,
One of my friends has a Chessie he uses for Grouse hunting, and the old boy points, he has no equal at retrieving anything that is shot, never will. However the Weimar and the Small Munsterlander have most all pointing dogs beat when it comes to instinctive retrieving, course these are Versatile dog with serious tracking/retrieving genetic imprints. Long ago Mr Barnett who owned & operated the Wetobe Kennel in South Texas, certified his Weimar Breed stock as retrievers. He and his wife would drive the lab guys crazy, showing up at the retrieving events. I purchased one of these incredible German Weimar dogs from them in 1972, just before Mr Barnett passed away, to this date I have never seen another dog except a Chessie, who could instinctively hunt and retrieve to hand any kind of fur or feather like these partiular Weimars could. Sam won the open Shoot to Retrieve field trials at FT Hood twice and as part of his prize the rules committee had a female Weimar dog flown in from Germany. His name was Samual J Coop SB385953 out of CH WETOBE'S BLUE BRUTUS SA468484 & WETOBE'S DUSTY MINERVA SA978033 . I have seen many real good
gun dogs in my hunting/training life time, I was lucky enough to own a dog of a life time, and he was a Weimar. Everytime I see a Weimar dog in the field today that can not hunt, I remember what great dogs they once were, and that I owned one of the very best that ever lived.
RGD/Dave

I konow is true you said. I haved weim german blood same you said in 1969 and were very good retriving ducks . Other in 1983 was 1/4 wetobe blood , and was very good .


My dog with betobe blood heck Ha , he was very good for retriever rabit, or duck, dove or quail, and pointing rabitts and quails.

[longarm]

Nike,
I actually did laugh out loud at your response. I was just thinking how much I might enjoy hunting over a back yard pond or mowed corn field.. someday I hope to find out! Until then, lots of gasping for air and swearing for me.

[CherrystoneWeims]

Birddogz,
One of my friends has a Chessie he uses for Grouse hunting, and the old boy points, he has no equal at retrieving anything that is shot, never will. However the Weimar and the Small Munsterlander have most all pointing dogs beat when it comes to instinctive retrieving, course these are Versatile dog with serious tracking/retrieving genetic imprints. Long ago Mr Barnett who owned & operated the Wetobe Kennel in South Texas, certified his Weimar Breed stock as retrievers. He and his wife would drive the lab guys crazy, showing up at the retrieving events. I purchased one of these incredible German Weimar dogs from them in 1972, just before Mr Barnett passed away, to this date I have never seen another dog except a Chessie, who could instinctively hunt and retrieve to hand any kind of fur or feather like these partiular Weimars could. Sam won the open Shoot to Retrieve field trials at FT Hood twice and as part of his prize the rules committee had a female Weimar dog flown in from Germany. His name was Samual J Coop SB385953 out of CH WETOBE'S BLUE BRUTUS SA468484 & WETOBE'S DUSTY MINERVA SA978033 . I have seen many real good
gun dogs in my hunting/training life time, I was lucky enough to own a dog of a life time, and he was a Weimar. Everytime I see a Weimar dog in the field today that can not hunt, I remember what great dogs they once were, and that I owned one of the very best that ever lived.
RGD/Dave

Dave, You need to do a little research before you tout the wonderful attributes of Wetobe! Maureen Barnett operated one of the WORST puppymills in the Weimaraner breed. The dogs were seized twice. The last time was just before she died. I was with the Pres. of the WCA when she got the call of the huge seizure in 2002 and the dogs were placed into rescue. I saw the photos of the conditions of the dogs and kennels. It was sickening!! Funds were sent from all over the country to help WRNT take care of these dogs.

EVIL TAKES MANY SHAPES

By Suzanne Fourmigue, September 7, 2002

Evil takes many shapes; sometimes it is the kind old lady down the road who sells a few puppies, “just to keep body and soul together”.

When you call on her newspaper ad, she may ask, “Have you been ”Saved”?” Making an appointment to see the puppies must be scheduled between her trips to church. It seems they can hardly open the doors without her. Neighbors and friends in this small farming community south of Fort Worth, Texas, think she is a saint. They say she barely gets by, with no one to help her, and all those animals to feed. They wonder how she manages.

Is it any surprise that local law enforcement and the county veterinarian go easy on her when asked to inspect her property and the conditions under which her 100 + dogs are forced to live. How could they be so mean as to cause trouble for this poor old lady, now in her 80’s? Yes, they know she was convicted of animal cruelty in 1978, but that was a long time ago. After all, doesn’t she deserve another chance? Why dredge up the past? Surely she has learned from her mistakes and made things better for her animals.

In August 1978 the Ft. Worth Star Telegram reported 111 Weimaraners had to be destroyed after being seized from Wetobe Kennels. The Tarrant County Humane Society was able to save an additional 45 Weimaraners found in deplorable condition and nursed them back to health.

For this holocaust, the owner, Maureen Barnett, received a conviction of ONE count of cruelty to animals, a one-year probated sentence, and paid a total of $2,096.00 in fines and court costs, according to court records.

Since her removal from probation in 1982, Maureen Barnett has bred and sold Weimaraners continuously for the past twenty years. She has advertised regularly in local north Texas newspapers, in dog and sporting magazines and on the Internet. Hundreds of litters of puppies resulted in thousands of Weimaraners sold for up to $450.00 each for the past 20 years.

For the past ten years Weimaraner Rescue of North Texas has received numerous complaints of the filthy and inhumane conditions at this kennel and the poor health and genetic deformities of the Weimaraners bred there. WRNT reported violations and complaints to the SPCA of Texas, the Humane Society of North Texas, the American Kennel Club, the Texas Department of Health, the Humane Society of the United States and many others.

In July 1998 and in March 1999 the Humane Society of North Texas negotiated the release of a total of 30 Weimaraners from Wetobe Kennels. These dogs were subsequently released to Weimaraner Rescue of North Texas for rehabilitation and placement. After the release of these dogs, Ms. Barnett filed a Restraining Order against the HSNT to prevent them from further kennel inspections. WRNT received a threatening letter from Ms. Barnett’s attorney accusing WRNT of making disparaging comments and false allegations about Wetobe Kennel.

In the spring of 2002, the American Kennel Club suspended Wetobe Kennel and Maureen Barnett from AKC privileges based on the failure of their inspection of the kennel conditions. Among the violations, the inspector reported that the dogs’ ears were so full of ticks they looked like they had ” bunches of grapes” hanging out of their ears.

On September 5, 2002, Ms. Tammy Hawley, Shelter Director for the Humane Society of North Texas and their attorney negotiated the release of 13 Weimaraners. One dog was near death and had to be euthanized. The remaining 12 were released to WRNT on September 6, 2002 for rehabilitation and placement. All twelve are emaciated, covered with fleas, ticks, mange, open wounds, intestinal parasites and will require weeks of intensive veterinary care.

Ms. Hawley reports the conditions at the kennel to be among the worst she has ever seen. She collected more than enough evidence to file felony animal abuse charges. Ms. Hawley found 3 dead Weimaraners lying in their kennel runs during her inspection. An attorney and neighbor removed an additional 7 Weimaraners from the premises before the HSNT arrived. These 7 dogs are under a veterinarian’s care and WRNT is negotiating with the attorney for Ms. Barnett for their release to WRNT.

In recent weeks, scores of Weimaraners were sold off to other breeding kennels and individuals for $100.00 to $200.00 each, to anyone willing to take them away. Even the horses have been sold.

The kennel buildings are empty now. No more thirst, hunger, pain, suffering or dying alone.

Evil comes in many shapes. Sometimes it is the old lady down the road who sells a few puppies and asks, “Have you been “Saved?”

AN EYEWITNESS ACCOUNT - 25 YEARS AGO

An eyewitness to the 1978 event reports, “One hundred-eleven Weimaraners were destroyed in one day. These were once-beautiful Weimaraners who were now covered with ticks and fleas, loaded with worms, nearly hairless with huge sores all over their bodies – holes they had chewed in their own hides from the itching of both kinds of mange – feet and legs swollen huge with the secondary mange changes – eyes and noses matted, knee-deep in their own poop.”

“I remember their eyes as they pleaded for someone to do something. Flies so thick you had to bat your way through them like swishing a machete through a jungle. And the sweet puppies – not yet so badly affected as the adult dogs – they were put down too.”

Suzanne Fourmigue Weimaraner Rescue of North Texas, Inc. Lone Star Weimaraner Club, Inc. http://www.WeimRescueTexas.org

[Oscar]

Is very sad for that nice weimaraner dogs.

[Chukar12]

Long ago Mr Barnett who owned & operated the Wetobe Kennel in South Texas, certified his Weimar Breed stock as retrievers

by CherrystoneWeims

Dave, You need to do a little research before you tout the wonderful attributes of Wetobe! Maureen Barnett operated one of the WORST puppymills in the Weimaraner breed. The dogs were seized twice.

[birddog1968]

Long ago Mr Barnett who owned & operated the Wetobe Kennel in South Texas, certified his Weimar Breed stock as retrievers

by CherrystoneWeims

Dave, You need to do a little research before you tout the wonderful attributes of Wetobe! Maureen Barnett operated one of the WORST puppymills in the Weimaraner breed. The dogs were seized twice.

LOL Too Funny chukar12, this is where you wont see him respond.....its his M.O.

Fast and loose with the facts, the only guy i know with an entire webpage dedicated to his nonsense.

I thank Pam for setting the record straight.

[ymepointer]

The Wesselpointer of course

[ACooper]

Birddogz,
One of my friends has a Chessie he uses for Grouse hunting, and the old boy points, he has no equal at retrieving anything that is shot, never will. However the Weimar and the Small Munsterlander have most all pointing dogs beat when it comes to instinctive retrieving, course these are Versatile dog with serious tracking/retrieving genetic imprints. Long ago Mr Barnett who owned & operated the Wetobe Kennel in South Texas, certified his Weimar Breed stock as retrievers. He and his wife would drive the lab guys crazy, showing up at the retrieving events. I purchased one of these incredible German Weimar dogs from them in 1972, just before Mr Barnett passed away, to this date I have never seen another dog except a Chessie, who could instinctively hunt and retrieve to hand any kind of fur or feather like these partiular Weimars could. Sam won the open Shoot to Retrieve field trials at FT Hood twice and as part of his prize the rules committee had a female Weimar dog flown in from Germany. His name was Samual J Coop SB385953 out of CH WETOBE'S BLUE BRUTUS SA468484 & WETOBE'S DUSTY MINERVA SA978033 . I have seen many real good
gun dogs in my hunting/training life time, I was lucky enough to own a dog of a life time, and he was a Weimar. Everytime I see a Weimar dog in the field today that can not hunt, I remember what great dogs they once were, and that I owned one of the very best that ever lived.
RGD/Dave

Dave, You need to do a little research before you tout the wonderful attributes of Wetobe! Maureen Barnett operated one of the WORST puppymills in the Weimaraner breed. The dogs were seized twice. The last time was just before she died. I was with the Pres. of the WCA when she got the call of the huge seizure in 2002 and the dogs were placed into rescue. I saw the photos of the conditions of the dogs and kennels. It was sickening!! Funds were sent from all over the country to help WRNT take care of these dogs.

[/quote]


I wondered how long it would be before someone pointed out this fact.

[Maverick57]

Gonna have to Say a Weim first and then a GSP ,then My Border Collie Heeler Mollie- She is the retrieveness fool dog I have ever seen, will go in the cold water were the lab will not and Mollie will bring the duck back. LoL.

[doco]

I'd have to say GSP. All three that I have owned have all been natural retrievers to hand. Now with this 10 week old Saddle litter I have, they have all been bringing back rawhides in a hallway since 6 weeks old. Yesterday just reconfirmed my decision.

Whilst working the 4 puppies that I have decided to keep for the first time on pigeons, I threw an empty beer can on the icy snow and they all took off after it. After they proceeded to push it out anoher 15 yards a scrum ensued. Molly, the only female, proceeded to steal it away and retrieved it to hand from 30 yards out with the rest in tow. Just can't ask for more than that unless I can get her to bring me full ones. GSP.....GSP.....GSP!

The only drawback I have found with natural retrievers is that their drive to retreive is so strong, I feel that they are harder to break em because they want to retreive so badly. I didn't allow my last two to touch a bird for almost a year until we were in retrieving stakes and they both tore it up like they retreive every time we're out. However, next ret. stake on next day "Gone with the Shot"! Back to square one. Now they get to honor and watch birds being shot and retrieved by other dogs for a while.

Bill