Gun Dog Forum

Georgia Boy -

I kinda figured it ws hunt test related. I have seen folks training for Navhda and have actuallly seen some portions of the test. It was interesting and , for me, different.

I personally have no interest in waterfowling. Never have. Just never got me excited. So, I don't do much in that department with the dogs.

Sounds pretty awesome to me though.

RayG

I have to say that Weims have a very high rate of natural retrievers in litters.

When I think of "natural" retriever I think of a very young pup of only 6 weeks who when I have gotten it used to being on the placeboard with the first throw of the canvas dummy the pup goes nuts and runs right out to go and get the dummy. The pup knows that the placeboard is a great place and brings the dummy back.

I've also seen little pups who were not natural water dogs whose retrieve drive was so strong they would leap into the water to fetch the bumper.

IMO, a well bred pointing dog should have natural retrieving instinct that can be nurtured into a functional hunting companion if the owner desires. I honestly don't know what breed has the "most", but it is something that we breed for to be sure. If I had to select a breed it would probably be GSP (or other continentals) ...but I sure can get Pointer pups in the water easier than the GSP pups I have owned. So it's a trade off and that's probably true with any breed. In my experience, I get a little more cooperation early-on from the GSP pups, and a little more boldness from the Pointer pups. But it all kind of evens out over the long run if you have good breeding to work from.

Guard Rail pups...

Katie
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5LeT6wEDOrw

Sammy
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=noGezYgVzQQ

Duke
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7OKeGL4b5wQ



.

No disire to retrieve in pointers

Food bowl in the boat?

Hey birddog1968,

The sire to your dog in the pic is a littermate to the sire of ckirsch's dog that he has been writing about. Weird huh?

1968,
Was that dog FFed or is that desire purely natural? I don't care, either way, that is spectacular drive! Just curious.

She has been FF'd dogz(Just finished her up recently), but she's always had that level of drive.... its not me saying Dead that launches her like that.....

She retrieved naturally but dropped at return 2-5 yards out....I ff'd to bring her to hand, plus she will be running Nstra.

Great looking dog! She is going to be responsible for the death of hundreds of birds this year!

Yawallac wrote:Hey birddog1968,

The sire to your dog in the pic is a littermate to the sire of ckirsch's dog that he has been writing about. Weird huh?

Must be in the blood huh Ross......I'll take it

Birddogz wrote:Great looking dog! She is going to be responsible for the death of hundreds of birds this year!

It will pain me a little not to take her west this fall, but she's getting her chance on competitions stage, she deserves it.

Here's another pup from a different litter this afternoon...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uMHUCAboijU


I love Pointers.



.

Very Nice birddog1968.

I tell you, it isn't the desire of the pointer I have ever doubted in the water, it is the blind retrieves and a coat that can handle retrieving and then sitting for an hour in 20 degrees as the wind blows at 30 mph and ice forms on their fur. I believe they are very capable of the job, but don't know if the tools are there for the cold. I tell you what, I'm about ready to give them a try though, as I love their upland abilities. I may have the coldest "bleep" pointer in all of ND in the duck blind, but he'll earn his keep on those days!

Well they weren't exactly bred with retrieving ducks in ND in Nov/Dec in mind....more like finding quail in the south.

They may not have the coat for Northern duck duty on the Prairie but the desire is there.

You might try crossing one with a lab or DD Dogz

Here in the UK i think the dogs maybe differ a bit (not always for the better) we dont have pointing labs, to the extent of you guys in the USA, but you can noy beat the Lab for retrieveing, but as for a pointing breed, i had a cracking GWP 10 years ago but not all are as good as him now adays, the best pointing breed i have seen in recent days in the UK was a Vizsla up the fell hunting strongley pointing at length and then putting in some long retreives from both water and heavy cover, always nice to see.

ATB
Dave.

Birddogz wrote:I tell you, it isn't the desire of the pointer I have ever doubted in the water, it is the blind retrieves and a coat that can handle retrieving and then sitting for an hour in 20 degrees as the wind blows at 30 mph and ice forms on their fur. I believe they are very capable of the job, but don't know if the tools are there for the cold. I tell you what, I'm about ready to give them a try though, as I love their upland abilities. I may have the coldest "bleep" pointer in all of ND in the duck blind, but he'll earn his keep on those days!

I have seen pointers do some amazing things. Some of them have no understanding of the word "cannot" and simply do not know the meaning of the word "quit". However, asking a pointer to sit quietly in a duck blind is asking a lot of them( of most of mine anyway) and asking one to endure freezing rain or dive into freezing cold water might just be bordering on abuse, because they are simply not designed for that kind of exposure.

There is noquestion in my mind that they have the heart and the grit to do darn near anything we could ask of them, but there are some things we should not ask.

Heck, I can think of lots better places to be...for ME... when the weather is that BRRRRR nasty!

Most of those places will have a nice warm fire, a place to sit and a glass with about three fingers of Leroux blackberry brandy near at hand.

RayG

Best answer ive heard Mr Ray Blackberry brandy

RayGubernat wrote:
There is noquestion in my mind that they have the heart and the grit to do darn near anything we could ask of them, but there are some things we should not ask.

Heck, I can think of lots better places to be...for ME... when the weather is that BRRRRR nasty!

Most of those places will have a nice warm fire, a place to sit and a glass with about three fingers of Leroux blackberry brandy near at hand.

RayG

My sentiments exactly. A pointer's coat will disqualify him from spending any amount of time in a freezing duck blind. That same coat allows him to work a lot longer on eighty-degree September prairie grouse hunts. Can't have it all...

Well said Ray, and i concur CK.

I've had G.S.P. 's and Brits . I found the G.S.P. 's had more retrieve instinct in them . The Brits were keen game retrievers but were not keen on dummies (bumpers.) This made it more difficult when teaching them to handle well on blind retrieves. I rely on the breeder having done a high proportion of the retrieve work for me .............they have bred for a strong retrieve instinct. I don't train F.F. so a dog lacking in retrieve instinct would end up as a pet. I have to know that by the time I take my dog to shoots that dog will really want to retrieve any bird that falls. I do most of my dog work for other people and I get paid for it.

Much of the work I do is as a "picker-up" at big shoots where 100 to 700 birds per day are shot over the guns. The birds fall everywhere and anywhere. At the end of a drive the easier marked retrieves and blind retrieves have already been picked but there are still very likely to be several birds that have fallen dead or pricked into thick woodlands unseen by anyone. My dogs are sent off to hunt for these birds , this is called "sweeping" and it is a vital part of a picking up dogs job. The dog has to be trusted to sweep the woods etc. completely out of view to the handler ,pick up and retrieve any bird it detects and preferably deliver to hand too and also possibly to stand waiting to have the bird taken from it if the handler is otherwise engaged by taking another bird from another of his dogs , maybe having to despatch the bird if it is wounded , put that bird in his bag etc. The dogs are then sent off again to search for any other birds still out there.

Dogs that aren't keen "natural" retrievers don't do well at this kind of work .
I think a "natural" retriever is a dog that with no training will at least run out and pick up just about anything that falls from the sky or which moves on the ground as a puppy. It's the trainers job to encourage and develop that into the dog that retrieves to hand. The trainer just chips off some rough edges and adds some icing to the already existing " natural retrieving cake."

Bill T.

that is a good read-

I've had a few natural Britt's- as you describe

think there's some Britt's arround here that once they understood they were only to go after ducks could get it done-

Rick Hall comes to mind

"A dog only has so many corrections in him to give you. Use them up and he's done".

Thought this was worthy of repeating.

Most likely not totally true, no more than "You cannot put anything in a dog, without taking something out".

But both need to be considered.

Neil

RayGubernat wrote:and asking one to endure freezing rain or dive into freezing cold water might just be bordering on abuse, because they are simply not designed for that kind of exposure.

This statement is not true. Just last season me and one of my pointers (my avatar actually) was hunting in single digit weather and he retrieved a quail from Hurricane Creek (mini river with a pretty strong current). When he came out I was prepared to load him up and get him warm but he wasn't ready to go. He simply brought me the bird and went back to hunting hard and fast. I do agree about the not sitting calm and quiet in a duck blind though, it's not happening. I'm not trying to brag on my dog. If he can do it any pointer can do it.

The above is a "could you" while Ray's statement is a "should you". We're all capable of doing things that we shouldn't do very often.

Kinda like this picture, this dog made 16 retrieves that day, he was 4 and in his prime. We were right behind the house and had an ample supply of towels to keep him rubbed off (which is the only reason he was allowed to continue). Would I let him do this now at almost 9 years old, no way, would he, absolutely ! They only know that their drive tells them go, it is us that must decided when to hold them back. That's not to say your dog in his prime was bothered by it...but do that a dozen times and you would most probably had a hypothermic dog on your hands.

Greg Jennings wrote:The above is a "could you" while Ray's statement is a "should you". We're all capable of doing things that we shouldn't do very often.

My point was that it is not a big deal. I'm not saying that I'm planning on taking him duck hunting and sending him to the water on multiple retrieves. Like previously mentioned, most won't sit in a duck blind and quite frankly neither will I. I wasn't trying to brag on my dog, just share a hunting story that related to the discussion (but I did think it was pretty cool).

Got ya Ron, Now me I never know when to say when On my own behalf

Yawallac wrote:Hey birddog1968,

The sire to your dog in the pic is a littermate to the sire of ckirsch's dog that he has been writing about. Weird huh?

I was half owner on a littermate to your dog's sire (HTA x Son Sac Babe). Real Weird

Couldn't tell you what breed has the most but my SM sure has a lot of retrieve in him. one of the first things i did when i got him home from the airport this winter was throw his toy for him and sure enough he brang it right back to me. He was very easy to get wet this spring even in his puppy fur and near freezing waters, initially he would have a fit on the edge but he always wanted what i threw bad enough to work up enough confidence. By 4 months he would enter any water anywhere as fast as he could for anything thrown, now at 7 months he has as much confidence in the water as my golden and will frequently swim a few hundred metres for fun, just hoping there is a stick or anything at all for him to bring back to me, he already has 10 times the desire to retrieve as my golden ever did, and simply won't stop looking until he finds something or I call him off. I think he will make a great duck dog but i will probably have to bring the golden on those late season hunts because he just doesen't have the coat, i think my golden would give a polar bear a go for his ability to withstand cold temperatures, even at -30 he seems to want nothing more than to go for a swim. As for blinds, marks and handling, we will have to wait and see until after his NA test when we start training for that, but for pure desire to go get something and bring it back to me, he rivals any lab his age, staright to the fall and straight back to me, sometimes he does a few laps around me celebrating before he gives it up. to bad i can't say his birdwork and tracking are on par with his retrieving though.

Ron R wrote:

Yawallac wrote:Hey birddog1968,

The sire to your dog in the pic is a littermate to the sire of ckirsch's dog that he has been writing about. Weird huh?

I was half owner on a littermate to your dog's sire (HTA x Son Sac Babe). Real Weird

LOL, what's his story? Good dog? Did he win anything?

Ladies & Gentlemen,
I do think some people have forgoten that Chessies do point, especially while Grouse hunting, my friend Steves Chessie was a relentless Grouse hunter and pointed every bird Steve ever shot, the big dog was also the best retriever of any kind of game or birds I ever saw, land or water. I also remember a lady in south Texas, in the 60's, who certified her Weimars as retrievers and beat the lab guy at their own game, even the Weimars could not match the Chessie however.
RGD/Dave

Chessie is no pointing breed no matter how far you want to stretch it, just as the wiem is not retrieving breed.

Who "Certified" a Wiem was a retrieving breed? :roll: Funny I didn't see any wiems at the nationals this year....

birddog1968 wrote:Who "Certified" a Wiem was a retrieving breed? :roll: Funny I didn't see any wiems at the nationals this year....

The question should be, who certified them as a pointing breed? And the answer would be the AKC. In every other country, they compete equally in both pointing and retrieving events (and against hounds in tracking). During the course of their development, and even today, the Germans put way more emphasis on their retrieving and tracking abilities, than on their pointing abilities. And it shows. Weims have more retrieve and less point than the other breeds classified as 'pointers.'

Aline
http://zzfarms.com

BD68,
Please reread the post, it was long ago for the real German Weimars at the Wetobe Kennel in South Texas, and if a Chessie can not be a pointing dog, neither can the lab and this was really my point.
RGD/Dave

actually quite simple- take all the different type dogs of the best pedigree possible- at 7 weeks toss something and see what goes to and grabs

you can work and make good retrievers out of any that go and grab- you can make some that don't be successfull with a lot of work

perfection and total obedience with a flashy stylish work ethic is anouther thing- leaving pro trainers out- because they can train most anything to do a good job

natural means at a young age they want to go, pick up, and carry- simple
all else isn't natural

As some know I am afisionado the pointer and the field trial but equally I am afisionado the retrievers and their field trials. Currently I have lab and pointer

I trained 25 years ago to retriving, land and water, a pointer. In Mexico we could compete with a pointing dog in retriving field trial. Here she takes a place against 12 labrador puppies. The bird was a pigeon that kills the fly.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bDxhI7Xass4

She took a second in intermediate water against an equal number of labs - 12 -

It was a versatile dog that tracked hares as head high and go towards giving back to the deer and took it. Texas Squire top and botom.

With this I mean certainly not be the same as a Lab, but some can be versatile .

From someone that does FF.....I have to say setters and Britts and Viz's are the 3 breeds I do the most FF...I train many breeds and always encourage a natural retrieve and can get many GSP's, pointers, Weims, and Wires to retrieve decently without FF.

Ryman Gun Dog wrote:Ladies & Gentlemen,
I do think some people have forgoten that Chessies do point, especially while Grouse hunting, my friend Steves Chessie was a relentless Grouse hunter and pointed every bird Steve ever shot, the big dog was also the best retriever of any kind of game or birds I ever saw, land or water. I also remember a lady in south Texas, in the 60's, who certified her Weimars as retrievers and beat the lab guy at their own game, even the Weimars could not match the Chessie however.
RGD/Dave

Don't quite think anyone would call the Chessies a pointer because they saw one point. And we know the Wiems can retrieve just like any other pointing dog. But the question is which pointing breed has the most retrieving instinct so the info on the Chessie and Wiem was not really germain to the question at hand.

Ezzy

zzweims wrote:

birddog1968 wrote:Who "Certified" a Wiem was a retrieving breed? :roll: Funny I didn't see any wiems at the nationals this year....

The question should be, who certified them as a pointing breed? And the answer would be the AKC. In every other country, they compete equally in both pointing and retrieving events (and against hounds in tracking). During the course of their development, and even today, the Germans put way more emphasis on their retrieving and tracking abilities, than on their pointing abilities. And it shows. Weims have more retrieve and less point than the other breeds classified as 'pointers.'

Aline
http://zzfarms.com

You may be right but don't blame the AKC for doing something the Wiem organization did.

I think the answer to the original question is .... almost any breed if you find a breeder for whom the natural retrieving drive is important. There is one other quality that is needed, especially if you are going to be shooting ducks, and that is a dog that has the retrieving instinct AND that can be calm...in the blind, in the boat....in between the action. I've had a couple that would drive you crazy during the lulls and tough to control on the shot....some do it just a whole lot better than others.

GSP and Vizsla IMO. But I don't know the brittanies well. I do know the GSP's and V's and feel that they have a strong natural inclination to retrieve. I don't necessarily see that in EP's and Setters. In fact, they weren't originally bred to retrieve anyway, right?

I do agree on the Chessie though. Ours points, backs and will outretrieve any dog we hunt with. She took a few years to develop steadiness on point and backing (which we did not "train" into her, but she came by it naturally when hunting with our other dogs). She has a keen desire to retrieve - and is absolutely tireless.

EP's may not be able to fetch ducks in Nov.\Dec. in ND but they make a heck of a good dove dog in Sept. in Oklahoma in 90+ degree heat. My blk and wht male pointer was retrieving dove for me last year at 8-9 months old. That dog retrieves everything to hand naturally. Whether it be dove, quail, pheasant, a tennis ball or rope toy in the backyard that dog loves to retrieve and will not drop anything unless you take it from his mouth. My female pointer will drop a bird at your feet but he just stands there with his head against your leg until you take it from his mouth. He won't fight you for it and has a real soft mouth, he has just always naturally retrieved to hand like that. Just a real nice dog that needs some more work on whoa but we are getting there. He finds birds well, points them, retrieves them but when you start to walk in for a flush he wants to bust a covey. He won't do it with pheasant just quail. He stands real steady with pheasant. I have decided to take the advice of some of the other members of the board and do some whoa breaking with him and see what happens. It'll be my first time whoa breaking a dog, usually they just naturally steady themselves up but I wanted to see if I could actually teach the whoa command myself.

Our little GSP/Springer mutt is a natural at retrieving and her prey drive is out of this world. As I've never owned a GSP or Springer, not sure if its either breed or a combo of both... :roll:

tfbirddog2 wrote:Well, you have to say GSP for me,a I know more britts that dont retrieve than anything.

It all depends on the lines you get the dog from which also goes with any breed a dog from field trial lines will most likely have less natural retrieve than a dog from hunting lines. just my 2 cents

ckirsch wrote:

RayGubernat wrote:
There is noquestion in my mind that they have the heart and the grit to do darn near anything we could ask of them, but there are some things we should not ask.

Heck, I can think of lots better places to be...for ME... when the weather is that BRRRRR nasty!

Most of those places will have a nice warm fire, a place to sit and a glass with about three fingers of Leroux blackberry brandy near at hand.

RayG

My sentiments exactly. A pointer's coat will disqualify him from spending any amount of time in a freezing duck blind. That same coat allows him to work a lot longer on eighty-degree September prairie grouse hunts. Can't have it all...

Maybe you can explain how much different a GSP coat is from an EP's coat

Meller wrote:Don't know about anyone breed being better than another ; but I do know it would be hard to beat my GSP's on a natural retrieve and I'll let you throw in the Lab's on that one.

Are you crazy? My buddy has a GSP that has a great retrieve but there's a reason there called German Shorthair POINTERS and Labrador RETRIEVERS. Either way +1 to versatile dogs.

Well, i would bet that you can find examples of great natural retreivers in all of the pointing breeds.....I've seen at least one or two really good ones in most breeds...

But if you were to take say 50 dogs from each pointing breed, each from hunting kennels and judged on how well as a group how much natural retrieve each group had.....Well i would put my money down on a Versatile, as they are more across the board bred for retrieving skills as well as pointing skills etc....at the top of my list would be Drahthaar and Pudelpointer.

pointshootretrieve wrote: Maybe you can explain how much different a GSP coat is from an EP's coat

I think in most cases GSP's have a slightly heavier coat than EP's, although they probably still won't make many duck hunters' short list for freezing duck blinds and breaking ice. Most pointers and shorthairs have plenty of retrieve in them, but the wirehaired breeds' coats obviously make them better suited for cold, wet conditions. As mentioned earlier, the shorthaired breeds can better tolerate high temps during early season hunts. There's always a tradeoff.....

tommyboy72 wrote:EP's may not be able to fetch ducks in Nov.\Dec. in ND but they make a heck of a good dove dog in Sept. in Oklahoma in 90+ degree heat. .

Yes is for that I put only one time my pointer in ducks, cold water. She was and retrieving bat was near freeze when my lab are happy .


My pointer Record - miller line - and his son Douglas , and my lab Nikon

Many years I was to duck with weim with German blood and he were very good because in Germany all continental dogs are test in water.