Gun Dog Forum

Of course this is just opinion, just curious as to what forum contributors think.

After almost 30 years hunting upland game my opinion has changed numerous times on what makes a great bird dog for me. I have come to the conclusion that for me it is cooperation. A dog that you simply don't have to speak to in the field. You let them out and they go with you, when you turn 90 degrees to the left or right that dog is in front of you within a couple of minutes. Again, with out a sound. I like a dog to hunt with some range, but not so big as it will be difficult for me to get to a point. 200 yards is far enough. 300 at the furthest. When I hunt phez in cattails, 60 is plenty far enough. A dog that just understands where she /he should be. I have owned dogs that were excellent bird finders, but didn't always find them for me. I have never owned a bird dog that didn't have the drive or nose to hunt well. I have owned Britts, GSPs, Setters, DDs. I have hunted over every breed I can think of. Most have high octane, fine noses, and plenty endurance for a foot hunter. The difference in the great dogs and the fair ones has been cooperation. For me hearing people yelling for their dogs or blowing a whistle all day is a real drag.

I don't think any specific breed is superior in this specific trait, but I think that it is what separates truly great hunting dogs.

I think there are two that are absolutely necessary, desire and trainability. The first is called prey drive in modern terminoligy and the other encompasses the cooperation you have listed as important but is a little broader in scope. The only other characteristic that enters in is physical ability but this is so well bred into our dogs that it is almost a given in our sporting dogs, hense their description as sporting dogs. With these three areas covered I think you have everything you need to have a great bird dog.

Ezzy

BRAINS

Birddogz wrote:For me hearing people yelling for their dogs or blowing a whistle all day is a real drag.

Sorry, but I don't mind having to handle my dogs. In fact, I prefer them on the edge. Give me a hard going border line renegade/indian. It's funny how different dogs make different people happy. You gotta love it .

Ron R wrote:

Birddogz wrote:For me hearing people yelling for their dogs or blowing a whistle all day is a real drag.

Sorry, but I don't mind having to handle my dogs. In fact, I prefer them on the edge. Give me a hard going border line renegade/indian. It's funny how different dogs make different people happy. You gotta love it .

I think that the reason I hate listening to guys blow whistles and yell is because I hunt pheasants 65-75% of the time. If you are making a lot of noise you will not have nearly the success on late season roosters as you will in stealth mode. I hate it when people talk too loudly or heaven forbid slam a car door!
Don't get me started on beepers!

I would agree with Ezzy - desire and trainability.

Brains can be good and bad. I've got a girl that is smart as a whip, but the problem was it made her very hard to break because she figured too much out and found the loopholes in EVERYTHING. Little b*tch.

Birddogz wrote:I hunt pheasants 65-75% of the time.

That's funny, I really dislike pheasant hunting, it's no wonder that we like different dogs .

Birddogz wrote:If you are making a lot of noise you will not have nearly the success on late season roosters as you will in stealth mode. I hate it when people talk too loudly or heaven forbid slam a car door!

That aint no joke. Last season when hunting with Tommyboy in Ok. we went to one spot and slammed the doors shut and maybe 100+ pheseants flushed about 200 to 300 yards away . What a bummer, it was a sky full.

Birddogz wrote:Don't get me started on beepers!

I'm with you 100% on that one .

I cut my teeth following my dads red setters and they were good dogs but hunted for themselves....., my first "bird dog" was my current lab. I have hunted preserve pheasants and chuckar as well as wild quail and waterfowl over her, Im currently training a GSP. of all these dogs I will agree that Cooperation is what makes a HUNTING dog to me. I want a dog that is hunting not for me or for them but for US. Just my humble opinion, im not chasing titles just birds.
Jim

Runs full-tilt-boogie all the time.
Wants to hang out with people.
Finds birds.

mudhunter wrote:BRAINS

+1 Bird Brains. Not manipulative people brains. Bird brains.

jimbo&rooster wrote:I cut my teeth following my dads red setters and they were good dogs but hunted for themselves....., my first "bird dog" was my current lab. I have hunted preserve pheasants and chuckar as well as wild quail and waterfowl over her, Im currently training a GSP. of all these dogs I will agree that Cooperation is what makes a HUNTING dog to me. I want a dog that is hunting not for me or for them but for US. Just my humble opinion, im not chasing titles just birds.
Jim

Sometimes a dog can have too much drive for me. I know that sounds crazy to many. Let me clarify that a dog cannot have too much drive for retrieving or hunting dead. I am talking about a dog that naturally likes to push the horizon. I know that many can take a dog and hunt on horseback, and take that same dog and hunt on foot. I am not as good of a trainer as those guys. I also like to let a dog hunt to their natural range. What I mean by that is at a range that the dog enjoys as much as the hunter. Also, many dogs that like to really roll are harder to get to sit still in a duck blind.

Let me say this though, I would own an EP that comes from big running dogs if I was assured by a reputable trainer that the dog was a closer hunter. In fact, a close hunting pointer would be wonderful to own. I would throw a neoprene vest on him and hunt him in any weather. I am open to ANY breed if the specific dog is a cooperative, driven bird dog. I just don't want an F-16. I would be wasting a great trial dog.

Cooperation first and desire a very close second.

I think that it is very telling that most people on this forum think cooperation is the key. That is experience.

biddability, brains , independence....in that order.

Birddogz wrote:I think that it is very telling that most people on this forum think cooperation is the key. That is experience.

IMO it is the type of hunting that most of us do.

1: Desire
2: Natural Ability
3: Bondability
4: Endurance

BRAINS

Ditto.



.

HUNT!

If the dog don't hunt, there ain't nothin' to bother training, so trainability doesn't count.

If that dog will hunt, then trainability. If I can't train it, all the hunt in the world ain't worth nothin'.

gpblitz wrote:Cooperation, Desire. Nose.

That pretty much says it.

Charlie

Nose, Drive, Cooperation, trainablility, I agree with all of this. First post says it for me.

But Add one more for me Adaptabiliy. Changing with conditions, changing with the quarry, changing with cover, changeing to being in a duck blind or canoe, going hunting one weekend and to trial another. (kind of goes with brains). I need and want my dogs to be able to do it all. And for the most part do.

Beepers, I used to hate but Mercy my GSP is a reacher in the Ruff woods. A bell will not let you find her. Beeper on Point only works well. When she works out of bell range you will never find her.

Got to agree with the first post. Cooperation and willingness are major factors in how easy a dog is to be around. My dogs are also house dogs, so the manners and things are more important to me than some others. Natural ability is also a major thing. I've owned two dogs that just didn't have "it" in them. Unfortunately, since mine also do double duty as family dogs, I still had to live with the disappointments every day. I'm a hunter, and not a trialer, and hunting should be relaxing, and fun, and not at all like work. A good dog is the same way.

Different strokes for different folks.

My #1 requirement of a bird dog is that it have an absolutely unquenchable, unstoppable desire to find birds. I want a dog that will hunt until it falls over on its nose and then when you splash some water on it, it gets up and wants to go some more.

I have found that if the dog has that level of desire to find birds, there is nothing it will not do to get its gums around a bird. That means I can teach it to do whatever I want, whenever I want, wherever I want as long as it gets into birds.

A dog with that kind of desire will hunt short, hunt long and everything in between. It will hunt dead, retrieve, come back and whatever else it is asked to do...as long as it is convinced there is a bird in there somewhere as its reward.

Different strokes for different folks.

RayG

RayG,

I AGREE with YOU 100%!

Good post Ray!

Ruffshooter wrote:Nose, Drive, Cooperation, trainablility, I agree with all of this. First post says it for me.

But Add one more for me Adaptabiliy. Changing with conditions, changing with the quarry, changing with cover, changeing to being in a duck blind or canoe, going hunting one weekend and to trial another. (kind of goes with brains). I need and want my dogs to be able to do it all. And for the most part do.

Beepers, I used to hate but Mercy my GSP is a reacher in the Ruff woods. A bell will not let you find her. Beeper on Point only works well. When she works out of bell range you will never find her.

Do yourself a favor and buy an Astro GPS collar from Garmin. You will never have to hear a bell or beeper again, and you will never lose your dog. I believe it may be the greatest invention since the e-collar.

Birddogz wrote:

Ruffshooter wrote:Nose, Drive, Cooperation, trainablility, I agree with all of this. First post says it for me.

But Add one more for me Adaptabiliy. Changing with conditions, changing with the quarry, changing with cover, changeing to being in a duck blind or canoe, going hunting one weekend and to trial another. (kind of goes with brains). I need and want my dogs to be able to do it all. And for the most part do.

Beepers, I used to hate but Mercy my GSP is a reacher in the Ruff woods. A bell will not let you find her. Beeper on Point only works well. When she works out of bell range you will never find her.

Do yourself a favor and buy an Astro GPS collar from Garmin. You will never have to hear a bell or beeper again, and you will never lose your dog. I believe it may be the greatest invention since the e-collar.

+1 on the Astro. It is a great tool and really easy to use for locating a dog(or your vehicle).

RayG

How many of you have used those in deep Ruff woods? Also they cost a lot. Also another gadget to carry around. I even find bear and rabbit dogs that have been lost for days with the telematry collars on up here.

I like things simple.
But thanks,
Rick

Ruffshooter wrote:How many of you have used those in deep Ruff woods? Also they cost a lot. Also another gadget to carry around. I even find bear and rabbit dogs that have been lost for days with the telematry collars on up here.

I like things simple.
But thanks,
Rick

I have used mine in summer hardwoods under the canopy,pretty thick undergrowth as well. I was amazed that it kept track of the dogs fairly consistently....not much interruption at all, might have zapped out once or twice in a couple hour walk under the trees. Maryland hardwood forest is fairly thick too, and nice a dark underneath even with sun blazing.

Doesn't the guy blowing his whistle and hollering have more of a training problem than a dog characteristic problem? I would acquiesce that dogs have different personalities, brains and pre-disposition to learning but their propensity to manners is largely a result of their training? It has been my experience or lack therof through the years that has made the greatest difference in my dogs. I want drive in a dog, I believe it is what puts the snap in their point and or ground coverage. Their instinct to pursue game and a reasonable amount of independence is what seems to allow the best dogs to educate themselves on finding game by seeking the proper objectives. A well trained desert dog in the west will quickly learn to run tree lines in the mid-west if they are confident, that's where they find their game. Confidence comes from consistency in your training and expectations of the dog. I look for a history of trial succes or hunting success in my genetics first; the latter is harder to verify than the former unless you personally know the dogs involved. From there, making a hunting dog that works for me is my job.

birddog1968 wrote:I was amazed that it kept track of the dogs

That is promising.
Rick

One thing that pheasant dogs have to learn is to be very thorough. 20 acres of cattail sloughs, crp, etc. do not have very many objectives. Add this up with the fact that pheasants run constantly, and a dog must learn to make large sweeps left and right into the wind to locate all of the birds present. This is very much learned as most bird dogs want to run objectives like creek bottoms, brushy draws, fence lines, etc. A cooperative dog seems to know what you are hunting for, like "Hey Dad, we are hunting pheasants today, so I will stay in control and hunt thoroughly out to 100 yards."........."Oh, now we are hunting Huns and Sharpies so I will roll out to 4-500 yards and find draws and ridges to run". "Oh, you crippled a rooster and it has taken off running on you, give me 5 minutes to track him down and I'll bring him to you." The good ones just love you and want to please you, and with maturity and much time spent, they learn HOW and WHAT pleases you. That is in essence what it is all about, a dog and hunter on the same page. Like a couple who has been married for years and knows what the other is thinking before they even think it. That is what I cherish about my dogs, the relationship is so much more than just pet and owner, it is a true friendship. I only wish that my friends could live longer.

Ruffshooter wrote:

birddog1968 wrote:I was amazed that it kept track of the dogs

That is promising.
Rick

Keep in mind Rick, in the woods my dogs stay closer but where still out of my sight....maybe on the edge of 100/150 yards, sometimes out sometimes closer.

Kmack wrote:Runs full-tilt-boogie all the time.
Wants to hang out with people.
Finds birds.

that's priceless

IMHO, the most important attributes of a good bird dog are the following- in order:

1. Desire to find birds
2. Mental toughness to handle higher level training
3. Biddability (willingness to work for the handler)

That's all you really need if you ask me...........

Rob

You make an excellent point about mental toughness. Can't have a dog get "soft" when training.

Chukar12 wrote:Doesn't the guy blowing his whistle and hollering have more of a training problem than a dog characteristic problem? I would acquiesce that dogs have different personalities, brains and pre-disposition to learning but their propensity to manners is largely a result of their training? It has been my experience or lack therof through the years that has made the greatest difference in my dogs. I want drive in a dog, I believe it is what puts the snap in their point and or ground coverage. Their instinct to pursue game and a reasonable amount of independence is what seems to allow the best dogs to educate themselves on finding game by seeking the proper objectives. A well trained desert dog in the west will quickly learn to run tree lines in the mid-west if they are confident, that's where they find their game. Confidence comes from consistency in your training and expectations of the dog. I look for a history of trial succes or hunting success in my genetics first; the latter is harder to verify than the former unless you personally know the dogs involved. From there, making a hunting dog that works for me is my job.

I agree, I like my dogs trained where I handle them as little as possible. I do use a whistle to turn the dogs when needed and at times for a recall, but if I am constantly blowing the whistle or hollering I have not done the proper training.

Charlie

Ruffshooter wrote:How many of you have used those in deep Ruff woods? Also they cost a lot. Also another gadget to carry around. I even find bear and rabbit dogs that have been lost for days with the telematry collars on up here.

I like things simple.
But thanks,
Rick

I have found the garmin to work very well in the grouse woods. I am different that I hunt primarily Grouse but trial in quail shooting dog trials (I do admit that I use different dogs). I have found that the garmin really does a great job at both, a longer battery life is the only wish I have.

Birddogz wrote:One thing that pheasant dogs have to learn is to be very thorough. 20 acres of cattail sloughs, crp, etc. do not have very many objectives. Add this up with the fact that pheasants run constantly, and a dog must learn to make large sweeps left and right into the wind to locate all of the birds present. This is very much learned as most bird dogs want to run objectives like creek bottoms, brushy draws, fence lines, etc. A cooperative dog seems to know what you are hunting for, like "Hey Dad, we are hunting pheasants today, so I will stay in control and hunt thoroughly out to 100 yards."........."Oh, now we are hunting Huns and Sharpies so I will roll out to 4-500 yards and find draws and ridges to run". "Oh, you crippled a rooster and it has taken off running on you, give me 5 minutes to track him down and I'll bring him to you." The good ones just love you and want to please you, and with maturity and much time spent, they learn HOW and WHAT pleases you. That is in essence what it is all about, a dog and hunter on the same page. Like a couple who has been married for years and knows what the other is thinking before they even think it. That is what I cherish about my dogs, the relationship is so much more than just pet and owner, it is a true friendship. I only wish that my friends could live longer.

Don't want my dogs calling me DAD since I refuse to call them my kids. lol. I am always amazed when we say the dog knows what we are hunting. Does this mean it passesd up all other spieces other than the one you are hunting? o it know you are hunting sharies so it really roles as you say but it smells a pheasant, does it pass? Tomorrow I am hunting pheasants on the same grounds so does th dog stay closer? I'll bet you shoot both spieces on those same grounds both day if the dog finds them and points them. Wish I understood the differewnce because when we hunt we are hunting everything thats in season so I am sure I am confusing the dogs.

Ezzy

More of a cover issue. If I am hunting cattails and thick CRP, I believe the dogs know we are hunting phez. They certainly shorten up in the thick cover. Now if I am hunting Huns, Sharpies, and Phez in really open prairie/pasture of course they will point a pheasant, but I honestly think they understand the difference. It is simply repetition. Thick cover equals phez, and open country equals huns and sharpies.

What are the most important characteristics in a bird dog?

I'm happy and prefer if they don't completely suck, gives me at least something to work with and build on - don't need the glass to be half full but it's nice to at least have a drop or two in 'er!! So far, so good...but it's close with a couple of 'em!!

Birddogz wrote:More of a cover issue. If I am hunting cattails and thick CRP, I believe the dogs know we are hunting phez. They certainly shorten up in the thick cover. Now if I am hunting Huns, Sharpies, and Phez in really open prairie/pasture of course they will point a pheasant, but I honestly think they understand the difference. It is simply repetition. Thick cover equals phez, and open country equals huns and sharpies.

Buyt my point is do they just pass the other birds when in thick cover because they know you are hunting pheasants? I am convinced dogs hunt birds and that is what they are looking for, just as I sometimes say lets go pheasant hunting but I still shoot quail or any other bird that is pointed if it's in season. In other words both the dogs and I are bird hunting but even at that I shoot rabbits when they are pointed. Guess the difference is I am happy if my dogs are general practishners and not specialist if I am going to call them hunting dogs. I'll leave those selective specialist to someone else and give each of the dogs a pat on the head as I sit at the table eating my fried rabbit, timber doodle and onions, and pheasant smothered in Cream of Mushroom soup. I've got a couple of ribbons and trophys here to from some trials but find they don't eat near as well.

Ezzy

Oh, believe me I am not interested in ribbons either. I love fried rabbit! I don't shoot rabbits when bird hunting, but I certainly am up for a mixed bag. I was just saying after years and years my dogs seem to sense when they need to hunt closer. It seems that on the rolling prairie in September that they understand they can range. When the season turns colder and we are in cattail swamps and thick CRP, they tighten up with the cover. I also honestly think the have memory of the places we hunt. I hunt the same places, so they remember the drill.Of course they will point any birds when hunting. They do point rabbits on occasion, but I never shoot anything on the ground when bird hunting. A safety precaution for the dogs.

Birddogz wrote:Oh, believe me I am not interested in ribbons either. I love fried rabbit! I don't shoot rabbits when bird hunting, but I certainly am up for a mixed bag. I was just saying after years and years my dogs seem to sense when they need to hunt closer. It seems that on the rolling prairie in September that they understand they can range. When the season turns colder and we are in cattail swamps and thick CRP, they tighten up with the cover. I also honestly think the have memory of the places we hunt. I hunt the same places, so they remember the drill.Of course they will point any birds when hunting. They do point rabbits on occasion, but I never shoot anything on the ground when bird hunting. A safety precaution for the dogs.

Think we are in almost total agreement but I think dogs adapt to cover conditions and not to speice being hunted. That's my idea anyway from what I have experienced.

Ezzy

Yes, I would agree that the cover is the biggest factor.