Gun Dog Forum

This pup is owned by a friend of mine. I've nicknamed him "Big Boy". He sureeeeeeeee likes his vittles

size & weight?, handsome he is

mcbosco wrote:size & weight?, handsome he is

I didn't weigh him, but my back estimates about 60lbs after lifting him on to my tailgate.

Aww he is a little fella, He is 27 inches 95lbs.

From that pic, I would say that that pointer is closer to 70 lbs.

Birddogz wrote:From that pic, I would say that that pointer is closer to 70 lbs.

Thats what I think nicely built dog.

I've always felt the world needed more 90 lb. bird dogs. The ones we are stuck with now live too long, move too fast, handle the heat too well, don't bloat enough, and are too "bleep" free of various displasias and heart ailments for my tastes.

Depends on what you want from your dog. If you need a dog that can retrieve in icy water, then a 90 lb. dog can be better than a 50lb. skinny dog. I agree that smaller dogs do live longer, and have less joint problems, but big dogs can be great hunters too.

Sorry, I am from the South. When you say "bird dog" you are usuallyreferring to EPs or an ES, not Chessies, spaniels, Goldens etc.

FLocker wrote:I've always felt the world needed more 90 lb. bird dogs. The ones we are stuck with now live too long, move too fast, handle the

Now that just is hard.

That is a big EP, How is his run? Long and smooth I bet.

You know Got a GSP down the road that is a big boy, at fightin weight he is 75 pounds. Yet he is the smoothes litest footed dog I have ever seen. He also has OFA excellent hips. Handsome too, Great bird dog. When he jumps up on the tail gate of the truck you don't even feel it.

Rick

FLocker wrote:I've always felt the world needed more 90 lb. bird dogs. The ones we are stuck with now live too long, move too fast, handle the heat too well, don't bloat enough, and are too "bleep" free of various displasias and heart ailments for my tastes.

Spinone life span is about 12-15 years, much like the rest of the group, but better than labs and chessies . They bloat at about the same rate as a GSP, which is not high compared to say a Weim, ES or Gordon, and don't have any major heart problems although DCM is something to ask about and have relatively low rates of dysplasia. Cerebellar Ataxia was an issue at one point but I am not aware of any known problems in the US. The dog will only live 12 months with it so its not something that is easily passed through the gene pool. Amazingly, this condition was traced to one dog in the UK as the source.

He is a big boy. I was thinking "Hoss" or "Moose".

best weight him- by stance, build, and looks he doesn't look any bigger than my Britt

Birddogz wrote:Depends on what you want from your dog. If you need a dog that can retrieve in icy water, then a 90 lb. dog can be better than a 50lb. skinny dog. I agree that smaller dogs do live longer, and have less joint problems, but big dogs can be great hunters too.

man you are all over the place- we grew up with 48-56 lb Golden Retrievers- up in Northern Minnesota they could bust thru ice, sit in a blind waiting- when the water froze on their coats- tell us how 90 lbers beat Bill Speakers two 52 lb champions in two states three years running-

not buying it fella- size has not one thing to do with retriving-

I had a 43 lb Golden/Irish cross that could retrieve with the best of them in spring ice

Shadow wrote:

Birddogz wrote:Depends on what you want from your dog. If you need a dog that can retrieve in icy water, then a 90 lb. dog can be better than a 50lb. skinny dog. I agree that smaller dogs do live longer, and have less joint problems, but big dogs can be great hunters too.

man you are all over the place- we grew up with 48-56 lb Golden Retrievers- up in Northern Minnesota they could bust thru ice, sit in a blind waiting- when the water froze on their coats- tell us how 90 lbers beat Bill Speakers two 52 lb champions in two states three years running-

not buying it fella- size has not one thing to do with retriving-

I had a 43 lb Golden/Irish cross that could retrieve with the best of them in spring ice

Shadow makes a good point I had a rough coated Jack Russell that was amazingly resistant to cold water and I have seen some smaller dogs in the salt rivers actually enjoy the cold, but just for a while on calm water. The larger dogs just have more strength and the mass to handle the cold and chop I see on the coast for quite a long time. Small craft warnings are pretty much the norm where I live but the bigger dogs like mine, labs & chessies are just built a bit better for those conditions. Shadows point that some smaller dogs have the heart is true though but I doubt the 52lb Champions are gone like consistent 25 MPH winds and 3 foot water.

ahhhh mcbosco- Bill Speaker was my freind-

birddogz is just talking to hear himself speak- he's got such great dogs mine would cower and crawl in a hole

he talks, he walks, but he won't run

Bergman's law
states that (1) among mammals of similar shape, the larger mammal loses heat less rapidly than the smaller mammal, and that (2) among mammals of similar size, the mammal with a linear shape will lose heat more rapidly than the mammal with a nonlinear shape.

I'm sure that you will have some reason why science is wrong again, but this is straight fact. When I have hunted in Saskatchewan the labs they use are often 110 lbs. The larger the animal of equal breeding, the better they are with cold weather. This is the same reason that whitetail deer in Canada are larger than their relatives in Texas. The same reason that Moose in the Yukon are far larger than their Shiras relatives in the Rockies. Just fact.

now instead of 90 lbers you are saying 110 lbers

btw- FT 's are rigged, you have to run shocker collars on yours all the time- your dogs are great in pheasants and you'd bet yours can find more birds behind-

so happens I made a couple calls- couple FT folks I know- they are laughing- you want to run yours against my lowly Britt and a couple of theirs here on wild pheasants

Shadow wrote:birddogz is just talking to hear himself speak- he's got such great dogs

I about sprayed my soda all over my 'puter monitor. Reminds me of something about the pot calling the kettle black, or something along those lines.

If the owner of that big ole boy is happy with him--let it be. What's it to the rest of us?

ah ghee- wems- if you feel that way- would you like an invite to hunt this 3 section farm- you and one of yours head to head with me and one of mine

Lets keep it civil, We all think we have the best dog out there but this is not the place to try and prove it.

Patience please, folks.

So, you have nothing? Exactly. Shadow, you need to answer the question. I have just made you look like an uneducated fool. Are you disagreeing with the current scientific law, or are you too unintelligent to understand that a 95 lb or 110 lb dog can handle colder weather better than a 55 lb dog. You either disagree with scientific law, or you are incapable of logical thought. Open a book.

Thats funny, up until now I thought shadow and birdogz were the same person shows what i know.

Shadow, I'll put my pics of bird hunting, and you post yours. We will be able to see who is full of crap. I look forward to the challenge. Enjoy those Britts who eat Coyote as they were lost from you. I can only wish I could have dogs that perform on a level with the average Timber Wolf! You are a blow hard with little intellect. Just facts. We shall see what you have.

WOW!!! Another thread ruined by little man syndrome, (my dogs better than your dog)!!! I love hunting dogs, I enjoy watching all hunting breeds in the field. I own a brittany and he's a heck of a dog and I'm proud of him when he's the one being backed by all the other breeds being discussed on this site. But the truth is my boy Gus sometimes is the one doing the backing. I don't understand why some of you are so insecure about the breed of dog you hunt that you have to run down another breed???

Birddogz wrote:When I have hunted in Saskatchewan the labs they use are often 110 lbs.

You may have hunted with 110 lb. labs, but folks that breed proper labs and folks that know performance dogs would be having none of it.

I think we should have a size and weight restriction on the dogs portrayed in photos on the site ... it will stop this civil war. Maybe use the akc breed standard?

slistoe wrote:

Birddogz wrote:When I have hunted in Saskatchewan the labs they use are often 110 lbs.

You may have hunted with 110 lb. labs, but folks that breed proper labs and folks that know performance dogs would be having none of it.

This a pretty typical Eastern Labrador that you would see in a coastal setting. I would say he goes 26 inches and 90lbs easy, maybe more.

The are some regional differences in breed types. This body type is common for coastal waterfowling where I live. A smaller dog is not going into Barneget Bay with a small craft adivory in effect unless he is built like this, at least not all day.

Or we could just look at the pictures of the big rascal and say "Wow, you're right, that is a big dog." Except from the picture I found I couldn't really get a perspective on how big a dog he is. Seemed well put together to me.

mcbosco wrote: I would say he goes 26 inches and 90lbs easy, maybe more.

That would be the top of the standard and is a good ways from 110.

mcbosco wrote:The are some regional differences in breed types. This body type is common for coastal waterfowling where I live. A smaller dog is not going into Barneget Bay with a small craft adivory in effect unless he is built like this, at least not all day.

By this logic, all endurance swimmers should be 300+ lbs. But I don't hunt the ocean swells. What I do know is that there is no condition anywhere in Sask. that will require the use of 110 lb Lab and that of all the dogs I have seen the 80 lb dog will outwork and outlast the larger, heavier compatriot every time whether in the ice covered marshes, the snow covered goose field or the uplands.

Yes I know..but I didn't agree on 110lbs. I am just making the point on size for certain applications.

Yeah a dog that size is outside show standards for sure.

The best swimmers I have ever seen are Newfoundlands. After a nor'easter a few years back I saw the Coast Guard training search and rescue with a couple. It was quite amazing.

Yeah...I was kidding and running the risk of being a smart a- -. That is a great looking dog...I can feel the urge one day coming on to own an EP. I am a brittany guy through and through and being out west you cannot help being partial to the GSP's (can't swing a dead cat without hitting one) but man...nothing looks like an EP on point.

mcbosco wrote:Yes I know..but I didn't agree on 110lbs. I am just making the point on size for certain applications.

Yeah a dog that size is outside show standards for sure.

The best swimmers I have ever seen are Newfoundlands. After a nor'easter a few years back I saw the Coast Guard training search and rescue with a couple. It was quite amazing.

With coat being of equal quality and consistency, the larger dog can take colder weather. It is simply science. Now, I am not saying that a 110 lb dog is common. What I am saying is that the locals that I have hunted with in Saskatchewan like larger dogs for the cold. These guys shoot more ducks than anyone possibly in Canada. Limits seem to be a suggestion to them, not a law. Their dogs retrieve incredible amounts of ducks, and this has been their experience. I normally don't hunt the same pot holes as they do, because I am scared of going to jail. However I have seen their dogs sit in water that is freezing up to there mid back for an hour or two. That is tough on any dog, but they seem to handle it well.

Birddogz wrote:What I am saying is that the locals that I have hunted with in Saskatchewan like larger dogs for the cold.

And I am telling you that living, hunting and working with Labs in the very conditions you describe that there is no basis for such an argument. A standard sized Lab will handle any cold that can be dished out and will normally get it done faster and for longer periods of time than the oversized dogs. This isn't some theory but real life experience with real dogs in the conditions and type of terrain you are describing. My current female is on the large side of the standard at 75 lbs. and it shows. My ideal would see females at 65 lbs and males at 80 for a compromise of athleticism, power and bulk.

I'm sure that your labs can get the job done. I was merely explaining my experience with Saskatchewan locals. I wouldn't want a dog that large either. Joint issues, etc.

What needs to be understood however, is that what I am telling you isn't a theory, it is a law. Bergmann's Law. There is no disputing that it is fact. As Mcbosco said the Newfie can out swim almost any dog in rough water. The Newfie is a very large dog.

I am completely with you on the Scientific Rule, but a 300 lb. dog simply would not be better as a retriever and I doubt that the dogs on the Iditarod Trail are selected on the basis of bigger is better because it is cold out.

A three hundred pound dog would be better at retrieving deer maybe.

I agree that an 80 lb. dog is preferable as a hunting dog over a hundred ten pound dog. As far as the Iditarod, fur is also a factor when concerning staying warm, and the Iditarod guys are looking for run more than anything. The animal with the warmest fur is the Arctic fox. They are the size of a house cat. So, while size helps conserve heat, it certainly is not the only factor.

Birddogz wrote:I'm sure that your labs can get the job done. I was merely explaining my experience with Saskatchewan locals. I wouldn't want a dog that large either. Joint issues, etc.

What needs to be understood however, is that what I am telling you isn't a theory, it is a law. Bergmann's Law. There is no disputing that it is fact. As Mcbosco said the Newfie can out swim almost any dog in rough water. The Newfie is a very large dog.

A Newfie swimming through 8 foot waves at the beach or being dropped from a helicopter into seas like that is nothing short of amazing. Its pretty much like the bumble bee flying.

So birddogz, are we full circle yet? All things considered, a 90 lb dog isn't necessarily better than a 50 lb dog even if you do want to retrieve from icy water.

I about sprayed my soda all over my 'puter monitor. Reminds me of something about the pot calling the kettle black, or something along those lines.

Boy did you get that right!!!

Charlie

slistoe wrote:So birddogz, are we full circle yet? All things considered, a 90 lb dog isn't necessarily better than a 50 lb dog even if you do want to retrieve from icy water.

Depends how long will the dog be exposed to the water? Lake or coastal?

Structure, chest, bone and coat all play a part.

It is not the icy water. It is the wetness and wind and air temps.

Try and take a 50 pound short hair out on a sea duck hunt in Jan. on the Coast of Maine. They will retrieve but will suffer in the blind or on the rocks. They have the heart, I know. Got one Done it. My FB is better for cold but not like a lab. He is barrel chested, heavy black coat, 55 pounds.
Take a 50 Pound Lab and do the same The lab will fair better. A larger lab will take the cold weather much better. Down right torterous conditions you want a Chessie. Prefferabley 70 to 80 pounder. Remember the wind the cold, the sitting in the blind or on the rocks, It is not the water they are retrieving in that is the problem. It is the conditions out of the water after the retrieve.

The dogs of the Ididarod have a different metabolism than most dogs, most have good coats, they are running most of the time, when resting they are in hay or burried in the snow. Not a right comparison.

The folks of Peru in the mountains have extra blood vessels in their fingers so they can handle cold with out gloves and do intracate work more easily than we in the states. I suspect the Eskimos do as well. They are all smaller than most of us.

Back the EP, Sorry for all this foolishness. No matter what your boy is great looking.

Enjoy.

Rick

slistoe wrote:So birddogz, are we full circle yet? All things considered, a 90 lb dog isn't necessarily better than a 50 lb dog even if you do want to retrieve from icy water.

Not necessarily better no, but with coat being equal the 90 pound dog will remain warmer than the 50 pound dog. There is a reason that a Chessie is a large dog with a thick body structure. If you are hunting in normal conditions then the point is moot. If you are hunting in crazy wicked cold, then it may make some. Most labs of normal size are capable of most anything. I have noticed that most guys who hunt sea ducks like a large dog, as well as the guys I know in Saskatchewan. Honestly, I really don't care enough about this to type any more on this topic.

Hey Clarence, great thread!

Not to take this thread further off course,,, but what's this about dropping NewFoundlands out of helicopters for search and rescue? Is that true? Might keep the sharks off ya for a bit,,,, but what's the purpose of sending a dog into a water search and rescue situation?

Because Newfs are such good swimmers and so strong they are trained to grab people in the water and tow them to rescue rafts. The Navy Seals have a Newf unit as well.

I have seen with my own eyes Newfs being lowered on lines from helicopters in high seas in rescue training. It was near the Earle Naval Base in NJ and the Coast Guard Base on Sandy Hook, NJ. There is a video on You Tube of an Italian rescue group that actually trains them to jump out of helicopters in water rescues.

Several years ago we were on vacation on Outer Banks in NC where the water is really tough and there was a group of guys training Newfs in water that no rational person would bring a dog near. They literally were swimming through, not over 8 foot waves.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SFmYaO6Ixdw

Hey Rich...... as long as we're going off coarse. I did some looking http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SFmYaO6Ixdw

12 Volt Man wrote:Hey Rich...... as long as we're going off coarse. I did some looking http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SFmYaO6Ixdw

http://www.google.com/imgres?imgurl=htt ... s%3Disch:1

Huh,,,, that's more pathetic than I thought it would be,,,, be my luck my buddy would have a biscuit with him and coax the dog over to him and I'd drown.

Just say'n,,,, from experience of my ol'crab fishn days,,,, if your ever tossed into the Bering Sea,,,, throw a life raft or a rope,,, but don't throw the dog in the drink too.

Wait a minute,,,, I was never a crab'ber,,,, but still pretty sound advice.