Look at this big rascal

[Birddogz]

Newfies are very cool dogs. My cousin used to own one. He had a fenced in yard and a doggy door to the inside of his house. He came home one winter day and could not find his dog. It had snowed 8 inches that day, and as he started to get worried his dog, he exploded from the snow. He had been asleep for hours outside. The snow had covered him completely. That is some fur, to allow snow to accumulate like that, showing that it doesn't allow heat to escape. My cousin said the temp that day was around 17 degrees. That is a dog that loves the cold.

[slistoe]

Are you sure it wasn't the body mass that kept him from freezing?

It always amazes me to see the horses in the snow at -30 with a blanket a couple of inches deep on their backs and it doesn't melt.

[Birddogz]

Body mass certainly doesn't hurt him. I think he weighed 160lbs. His fur looked like a bear too.

Your comment is very applicable. Horses have very little fur/hair compared to other animals, but they have a tremendous amount of mass. Same with cattle. Those poor son of a guns can handle some rough weather as well.

[slistoe]

Mass or no mass, if those horses did not have an adequate hair coat for the conditions they would be loosing enough body heat to melt the snow. It is the hair coat that is retaining the heat inside. Mass simply means there is more of it to retain and the body shape can reduce the surface area that it can be lost from, but it is the efficiency of the hair coat to act as an insulator for them that amazes me.

[Birddogz]

Agreed. Just like when you hunt deer in a snow fall. The snow just piles up on them.

[slistoe]

Are you getting tanned on both sides now? Flopping around like that.

So, is it the body mass of a Chessie that allows them to brave the icy swells, or the dense, oily, water repellent, double coat. How about the Newfie? Certainly a bigger dog is stronger, has more inertia to resist swells and has larger feet/legs for greater propulsive force, but without the hair coat ... well, what would happen if you threw a 150 lb. Mastiff in there?

[Birddogz]

It isn't any one thing. Bergmans law applies always. The larger the body mass the more heat retention. Fur, obviously contributes as well. The better the coat the more heat retention. There are also other factors. Percentage of body fat. The higher the fat, the warmer the animal stays. This can be seen in animals with blubber. Metabolism also plays a role, as does activity level, as it affects circulation. Breathing also contributes to the loss of heat. An animal breathing through its nose, loses far less heat than an animal breathing through its mouth, since heat loss through the lungs is significant. ALL factors must be considered.

[slistoe]

You are right. A Mastiff would live at least twice as long as a Whippet and that Pointer in the opener would be somewhere in between.

[mcbosco]

Mass or no mass, if those horses did not have an adequate hair coat for the conditions they would be loosing enough body heat to melt the snow. It is the hair coat that is retaining the heat inside. Mass simply means there is more of it to retain and the body shape can reduce the surface area that it can be lost from, but it is the efficiency of the hair coat to act as an insulator for them that amazes me.

Horses have a lot of internal heat from the digestion process. I had the opportunity to help on several autopies for insurance purposes years ago and the vet explained that to me. It was quite a blast of heat along with the smell.

[mcbosco]

Are you getting tanned on both sides now? Flopping around like that.

So, is it the body mass of a Chessie that allows them to brave the icy swells, or the dense, oily, water repellent, double coat. How about the Newfie? Certainly a bigger dog is stronger, has more inertia to resist swells and has larger feet/legs for greater propulsive force, but without the hair coat ... well, what would happen if you threw a 150 lb. Mastiff in there?

Newfies also swim "breast-stroke" both front and back, that gives them greater stability.

[Birddogz]

Mass or no mass, if those horses did not have an adequate hair coat for the conditions they would be loosing enough body heat to melt the snow. It is the hair coat that is retaining the heat inside. Mass simply means there is more of it to retain and the body shape can reduce the surface area that it can be lost from, but it is the efficiency of the hair coat to act as an insulator for them that amazes me.

Horses have a lot of internal heat from the digestion process. I had the opportunity to help on several autopies for insurance purposes years ago and the vet explained that to me. It was quite a blast of heat along with the smell.

The process of decomposition/fermentation produces a ton of heat. If you have ever moved mulch you can see this. Dig into the pile and watch the steam roll out of the middle. I would imagine that herbivores with all of those stomachs to help them digest plants/cellulose must have quite a bit of heat for certain.

[slistoe]

Which is why alfalfa hay with grain supplementation is the preferred winter feed around here for horses as they have a greater amount of heat released from digestion than grass hay. "Hard" hays such as timothy are preferred summer feeds.

Horses have one stomach.

[mcbosco]

luckily for horse owners alfalfa prices have come back to earth at least market prices

[slistoe]

Because of the intolerance for mold horse hay operates on its own inflated pricing model.

[Birddogz]

Which is why alfalfa hay with grain supplementation is the preferred winter feed around here for horses as they have a greater amount of heat released from digestion than grass hay. "Hard" hays such as timothy are preferred summer feeds.

Horses have one stomach.

I was not talking about horses only, but cattle, deer, etc. Good info on the alfalfa.

[welsh]

Bergmann's Rule: Oops.

http://rparticle.web-p.cisti.nrc.ca/rpa ... lyLang=eng

[Birddogz]

OME ECOLOGICAL RULES
to think about
Arctic HareBlack-tailed JackrabbitConsider the problem of heat loss in animals living in very cold climates. Most heat is lost near a body's surface. Therefore, the less surface area a body has relative to its total size the less heat it will lose from its surface. It happens that of all the geometrical forms in nature, the one with the least surface area relative to its total size, or unit volume, is the sphere.

This means that if you live in a cold climate you will find a certain advantage in being somewhat spherical -- being short and thick -- which is essentially the case for, say, walruses, Snowshoe Hares, and Eskimos. The Black-tailed Jackrabbit at the upper left and the Arctic Hare at the upper right clearly take advantage of this phenomenon. The Black-tailed Jackrabbit, a resident of hot, arid areas, has long ears, long legs and a longish head. The Arctic Hare's ears are much shorter relative to the head size, plus the head itself is more spherical, and the legs are relatively shorter than the Black-tailed Jackrabbit's.
ALLEN'S RULE

In fact, in ecology there's a "rule" recognizing this principle at work among geographical races of single species. Called Allen's Rule, it states that certain extremities of animals are relatively shorter in the cooler parts of a species' range than in the warmer parts. By "extremities" is mainly meant arms, legs, ears, and snout or nose.
BERGMANN'S RULE

It's also a matter of basic physics that the larger a sphere, the less is its surface area relative to its total volume. Therefore, large balls lose heat more slowly, relative to their size, than small ones. You might guess, then, that animals tend to be larger in cold areas than in tropical ones. In fact, Bergmann's Rule asserts that geographic races of a species possessing smaller body size are found in the warmer parts of the range, and races of larger body size in cooler parts.
GLOGER'S RULE

Turning from spheres, Gloger's Rule states that dark pigments increase in races of animals living in warm and humid habitats. Of course, among the animal species supporting this "rule" is humankind.
THE EGG RULE

With special reference to birds in the Northern Hemisphere, the Egg Rule states that the average number of eggs in a set, or clutch, laid by songbirds and several other kinds of birds increases as one moves north in latitude. This state of affairs probably evolved to balance the fact that in the north songbirds may be able to raise only one brood per season, while farther south, two, three, or more broods may be possible.

Sometimes, when we are alone in the forest or at the beach, or even during a quiet moment in the backyard, thinking on these "rules" as wild plants and animals live their lives around us, it's almost as if we can hear the old philosophers' "music of the spheres."

This is what I have found.

[slistoe]

ALLEN'S RULE

In fact, in ecology there's a "rule" recognizing this principle at work among geographical races of single species. Called Allen's Rule, it states that certain extremities of animals are relatively shorter in the cooler parts of a species' range than in the warmer parts. By "extremities" is mainly meant arms, legs, ears, and snout or nose.
BERGMANN'S RULE

It's also a matter of basic physics that the larger a sphere, the less is its surface area relative to its total volume. Therefore, large balls lose heat more slowly, relative to their size, than small ones. You might guess, then, that animals tend to be larger in cold areas than in tropical ones. In fact, Bergmann's Rule asserts that geographic races of a species possessing smaller body size are found in the warmer parts of the range, and races of larger body size in cooler parts.

Which is why Lions, Tigers, Elephants, Hippos, Rhinos, Gorillas, Ostrich, etc are all living in the regions they are right?

[Birddogz]

What you are missing is the fact that they are talking about the same species. A deer in Florida is very different than a deer in Saskatchewan. The one down south is long and thin in comparison. Same rings true for black bears in the Everglades as opposed to those in Canada. You mentioned Tigers. Compare the size of a Bengal tiger to that of a Siberian. The size of a Mexican coyote is far smaller than those that live in Maine. There are other factors, but I think that the evidence is overwhelming.