GWP's Q and A

[labman21]

I'm really interested in the German Wirehaired Pointer. I see that they're a very versatile dog but I'd like to know more.

How are they with people?

Can they handle the cold of Montana during duck season?

What are your experiences with these dogs?

If you guys can help me out thanks

[BigShooter]

As with all breeds there are good individual dogs and bad individual dogs.

They are generally good with people. Their coat varies a lot: from very short (almost like a GSP) to a coat with hair so long it almost covers their eyes, from soft and semi-smooth to very coarse & wiry. They do better than the GSP with cold water retrieves but they don't do anywhere near as well as labs if that's your yardstick. Get a neoprene vest for very cold water work. Most of the versatiles are great for jump shooting retrieves & for the first half of the season or so in the extreme north. Although they may be gung ho when there is thin ice on a lake or pond they really aren't well suited for icy water. Check out the individual breeding for the qualities you're looking for.

[Georgia Boy]

Check this out... http://www.vdd-gna.org/

[BigShooter]

If you're interested in GWPs the DD is an option as well. If we had a poster from one of the northern States who has waterfowled with both GWPs & DDs in very cold temperatures maybe they could tell us if they could notice any difference in resistence to the cold.

I certainly wouldn't pay a premium to get a DD over a GWP or a DK over a GSP based primarily upon the marketing information proffered up on a breeders' website.

[JKP]

I certainly wouldn't pay a premium to get a DD over a GWP or a DK over a GSP based primarily upon the marketing information proffered up on a breeders' website.

What is the marketing information you're talking about? I mean which info is marketing "gibber" and which is serious? Just trying to help the
"lurkers" sort it out.

[Birddogz]

DDs are often times cheaper than GWPs. Mine cost 600 dollars with tatoo and microchip.

[BigShooter]

I like the OP's approach. Ask people with first hand knowledge of the breed about their experiences/opinions. If possible independently verify something you read or heard from someone who has a vested interest in promoting or selling their product. Look for value, value = price & quality. Quality can be the qualities you desire in a gun dog used for your purposes. Value tends to be easier to identify in an individual breeding rather than one breed versus another breed.

[fuzznut]

How are they with people?

the are very devoted to THEIR people, can be standoffish with others. Or, they can love everyone. Be sure to ask about the parents with strange people, and strange dogs. Some lines can be quite snarky, others are lovers.

Can they handle the cold of Montana during duck season?

A decent coated dog will handle cold well, but as stated above, they are not Labs.

What are your experiences with these dogs?

30 yrs

Be careful of the GWP vs DD debate, don't get caught up in it. Look for a dog whose family does what you want to do.... meet the sire and dam if possible, watch them work if possible, talk to others who own the breed.
Fuzz

[jhoughton]

There are so many things I really like about this breed. You do need to be real careful of which breeding you chose, there are lines I have seen and experienced with some aggression issues, but most breeders try real hard to get rid of these traits. With the right coat, there is no reason one who not do well in a cold climate duck hunting. The trade off on that is, the heavier the coat you get for ducks, it will get the dog hotter when they are running in the field.

Find a good breeder and get to know the parents if possible before choosing a pup. I would reach out to Fuzznut or Snips if you are serious about a gwp and see when either Louie or Amos are being bred. Both of these dogs have real nice coats and perfect tempermants. The are both heavy in Sureshot lines which has shown to produce great dogs. Also worth contacting Ron Wilson, he has a litter on the way from his Zeuss (litter mate to Amos and my FC Trish) dog which is a real nice dog and is as easy going as it comes.

In the end, I don't think you can go wrong with a well bred GWP.

[JKP]

The best advice of this whole discussion is ... pick a breeder ... pick one that hunts ... a lot ... pick one that has been around dogs, lots of dogs....on the ground, in the water. Visit a lot of kennels...put your hands on a lot of dogs ... learn what a good coat feels like and what good coverage is....learn the difference between what is a high maintenance coat and a wash and wear coat. Find out what the health issues are...every breed has them. Once you have narrowed it down, go take a test drive...go hunting with the breeders dogs...spend some time in their house with the dogs. You are investing money and a lot of your time in this pup...invest some time before you make a decision. The more you learn the better your chances to get what you envision. One hint---resist the urge to buy the cute 8 week old pup with the full beard and cuddly coat...that's not the wash and wear working coat you are looking for.

Be careful of the GWP vs DD debate, don't get caught up in it. Look for a dog whose family does what you want to do.... meet the sire and dam if possible, watch them work if possible, talk to others who own the breed.

I disagree..there are differences...and I doubt there is anyone on this list that goes back farther than I do in both breeds. I will NOT debate what is better...that is a waste of time. But the recommendations you have gotten so far point out very clearly where the differences are....these GWP performance folks "talk" field trial...DD folks "talk" Vdog and only versatility...focus is different for the most part. Get what you need and that will again be a search for a breeder.

[Greg Jennings]

Look for a dog whose family does what you want to do.... meet the sire and dam if possible, watch them work if possible, talk to others who own the breed.

Very wise and very succinct. Can't tell you how many times "family that does what you want it to do" would have gotten the right dog in the right hands.

[BigShooter]

If you really look for a dog whose family does what you want to do, outside of Montana, you would be looking for a family of dogs whose activities & members are primarily located in the band of cold weather States near Montana and as far north (like ND, MN & possibly far north WI or Upper MI).

[fuzznut]

Right now I am in the sandhills of Nebraska, and we are running a whole bunch of trial bred, show bred, hunting bred GWP's on wild sharptails and prairie chickens.

This morning, we had 6 covey's found and pointed by 4 different gwp gun dogs, 2 of which were prior National Champions.... and 3 coveys pointed by gwp derbies.

Lots of fun... huge land, tough, very tough grounds for dogs to handle. Very flighty birds that don't respond well to pressure and a dog has to point them way far off. It's hot, and the dogs seem to be handling it pretty well.

Tonight, we'll take out the puppies and see how they shake out. Not all will make the cut, but some will for sure.
Jay... the Trish puppy is a real cutie... BAD!!!! Very naughty!

There are plenty of very nice dogs out there... lots of owners of dogs take their dogs duck hunting (and yes, some come from trial dogs)
fuzz

[JKP]

lots of owners of dogs take their dogs duck hunting (and yes, some come from trial dogs)

And then there are those that breed for it...prioritize the water work as well. Again...find a breeder that breeds for what you want because he/she does what you do...

[BigShooter]

Many folks are passionate about their breed of choice.

A couple of things to think about: breeders in hot weather States would be foolish to breed for heavy, thick coats & likewise breeders in cold weather States who utilize their versatile dogs for cold weather waterfowling would be unwise to breed for thin, light coats. There is more variation between the coats of individual dogs/lines of wirehaired versatile dogs than many of the shorter-haired dogs.

It makes little difference whether you're talking about land or water retrieves, the most important factor in dogs is a strong natural desire to retrieve. Try to find out if the parents or line of dogs are strong natural retrievers. While not known as water retrievers one of my best water retrieving dogs I used in ND, was an English Setter.

[JKP]

It makes little difference whether you're talking about land or water retrieves, the most important factor in dogs is a strong natural desire to retrieve. Try to find out if the parents or line of dogs are strong natural retrievers. While not known as water retrievers one of my best water retrieving dogs I used in ND, was an English Setter.

I think its a bit more...a good water dog is also calm...can sit quietly in a duckblind as long as needed....highly trainable and can be handled on the water...only starts with retrieving. I have seen many dogs that ere very competent retrievers on land that were mediocre in the water...especially when the going got tough. If I'm going to measure a dog's heart and desire to retrieve, I'd rather do it in the water.

[mcbosco]

Apart from breeding, many people screw up wire-haired coats by not grooming them properly. Even a dog with the right genetics can have a dismal, woolly, even wavy, coat because someone took clippers to it.

If you have one, hand strip.

[BigShooter]

a good water dog is also calm

I might say this a little differently, a good dog to have in a blind or a boat is one that remains still enough (or hidden), avoiding detection by incoming birds. Remaining in place while shivering from cold or excitement is not a problem.

highly trainable and can be handled on the water

Many would argue "trainable & handles" is an attribute no more important on water than land.

measure a dog's heart and desire to retrieve

Bingo - hit the nail on the head! Once again pride in your own breed of choice may make one inclined to prize a difficult mile long wounded bird retrieve on land more or less than a difficult hidden bird water retrieve. That kind of a "what's more difficult" or "what's best" debate could be argued ad nauseam.

[JKP]

Bingo - hit the nail on the head! Once again pride in your own breed of choice may make one inclined to prize a difficult mile long wounded bird retrieve on land more or less than a difficult hidden bird water retrieve. That kind of a "what's more difficult" or "what's best" debate could be argued ad nauseam.

Over my 50 years in dogs, I have seen far more good field dogs that didn't get it done in the water than the other way around. I'm not arguing what's best...I'm saying that you go get a pup from folks that have proven for generations that their dogs DO what you want. I admire all good dogs from many disciplines...however, if I am going to put down my money, its not going to be on the basis of anecdotes but on fact...on generations of breeding for what I need. I have been at this too long to get in an "ad nauseum" discussion...there are good dogs to be had from many sources...but great talent in one area does not always translate into great talent in another, especially when it is not a priority of the breeder...who makes the decisions. Over the years I have seen too many great field performances followed by mediocre water work...thus preventing a top UT score in NAVHDA, for instance...and I don't consider the duck search to be the definitive test for any water dog.

If you want a top water dog, you go see a breeder that demands the same....if you want hard low maintenance coats, go find a breeder that expects that as well......I really don't see how anyone could have a problem with that. There seems to be a misconception that running hard in front of the horse guarantees everything else....and I wouldn't go that far.

[BigShooter]

I have seen far more good field dogs that didn't get it done in the water than the other way around.

By way of explanation are you saying you've seen far more good versatile field dogs who received water work training from the same water trainers. Then having received exactly the same, extensive training as the water dogs you refer to, didn't get it done as well?

Are you also saying you've seen far more good versatile extensively trained water dogs, with almost no field training that have performed better in the field than good field dogs?

This sounds like another apples and oranges comparison. Compare the water work of a dog trained in field performance with little or no water training and compare it to a dog that has had thorough water training. Now if you want to show me comparisons of large numbers of dogs that have had no training what-so-ever, and without any direction from a handler are doing field work and water retrieves all based upon instinct and natural ability I'm all eyes.

At this point I never heard the OP say he wanted anything more than a versatile dog that would retrieve waterfowl in cold weather and everyone has said to find a family of dogs doing exactly the activities he wants to do. It's unfortunate when one cannot respond without resisting the desire to attempt to bash other dogs.

[mcbosco]

JKP's point is easy to see in an extreme situation, like coastal duck hunting with temps in the 40's, 15 -25 MPH winds all day and rain. Most of the V dogs should be home on days like that. They are too light, too narrow, too lean, too thin in coat and too fidgety.

You can train them all you want in a pond situation and get all excited when you snap the picture but in the real world with cold, moving water its just not fun or safe putting them in.

Mine is used to it and has the body and strength to deal with it, but when a big eastern lab or chessie hits a salt river on a really nasty day and has fun, you finally understand.

[JKP]

Bashing what dogs???? Good word....I'm simply saying get a dog from a program that has proven it produces dogs that do the work you expect...
If I want a bird dog, do I buy one from someone who shoots 10 liberated birds a year or 300 wild birds a year?....a duck dog from someone who shoots a half dozen puddle ducks or from someone who lives and breaths waterfowling? Sorry you have a problem with the concept...but this is not as much about the dogs as about the priorities and judgment of the people who breed them.

There is no bashing going on here..instead some respect for folks who put in the work.

[jlp8cornell]

We have a few awesome GWPs in our NAVHDA chapter that hunt all yr long. 2 have very short coats- no grooming needed. We also have a DD who is an awesome field and water dog.

As far as working in cold, I have a friend with a GSP who duck hunts in our 10 degree and -20 degree windchills with no issues. She loves it!

I guess it depends on the drive of the dog.......

[mcbosco]

We have a few awesome GWPs in our NAVHDA chapter that hunt all yr long. 2 have very short coats- no grooming needed. We also have a DD who is an awesome field and water dog.

As far as working in cold, I have a friend with a GSP who duck hunts in our 10 degree and -20 degree weather with no issues. She loves it!

I guess it depends on the drive of the dog.......

On a pond? Come to the coast after or before a Nor'easter, when the dog gets caught in a current and gets back to shore 100 yards from where he or she jumped in. Even the owners of these dogs say "Oh Crap".

One or two shakes and they are ready to go again. Drive only goes so far in these conditions.

[jlp8cornell]

On a pond? Come to the coast after or before a Nor'easter, when the dog gets caught in a current and gets back to shore 100 yards from where he or she jumped in. Even the owners of these dogs say "Oh Crap".

On a pond? Who hunts ducks from a pond? Lakes! On Cayuga Lake it gets 0-10 degrees with windchills -10 to -30! And yes, we have currents and also Nor'Easters. Last you told me, you get next to no snow in NJ. Not here. 2' is nothing to get during the day.

So, as I said, I know GSPs who thrive on this and do great. In the 40s in the winter? WOW! That's like summer to us!!!! Max tested his NA in early Sept and it was 30 for his swim. No problem.

Jen

[BigShooter]

I disagree..there are differences.......these GWP performance folks "talk" field trial...DD folks "talk" Vdog and only versatility...

Who are these GWP performance folks? What is a performance folk? I guess particuipation in hunt tests & NAVDA doesn't include a performance by the dog. At this point there was no one talking about field trials. Aparently all GWP owners whose dogs perform never train for nor talk about versatility.

There seems to be a misconception that running hard in front of the horse guarantees everything else....

A deragatory glittering generality.

If this is not back handed bashing it is at least a very poor choice of words.

[JKP]

I'll stay with the premise....you want a dog to bust water, you get one from a breeder that expects the same...I would expect my best chance to be with such a breeder.

What's funny about all of this, is that if I suggested that a good source for a FT dog would be from a kennel that never competed, you'd be all over me. I wouldn't in my wildest dreams suggest that anyone could expect to get a trial dog from my program. But when I suggest that the best source for a water dog would be a breeder that prioritizes waterfowling, you get all huffy....sounds like a double standard to me.

[BigShooter]

Mine is used to it and has the body and strength to deal with it, but when a big eastern lab or chessie hits a salt river on a really nasty day and has fun, you finally understand.

Two of my friends, a husband & wife hunt together. She's the primary trainer in the house. They own labs. I've said this before, they take their dogs to Lake Superior for fun swims at least once a week year around. This isn't for just a quick dip, you have to call the dogs to get them out of the water. This includes days of 20 degrees below zero and water temps in the low 30s.

[Birddogz]

Right now I am in the sandhills of Nebraska, and we are running a whole bunch of trial bred, show bred, hunting bred GWP's on wild sharptails and prairie chickens.

This morning, we had 6 covey's found and pointed by 4 different gwp gun dogs, 2 of which were prior National Champions.... and 3 coveys pointed by gwp derbies.

Lots of fun... huge land, tough, very tough grounds for dogs to handle. Very flighty birds that don't respond well to pressure and a dog has to point them way far off. It's hot, and the dogs seem to be handling it pretty well.

Tonight, we'll take out the puppies and see how they shake out. Not all will make the cut, but some will for sure.
Jay... the Trish puppy is a real cutie... BAD!!!! Very naughty!

There are plenty of very nice dogs out there... lots of owners of dogs take their dogs duck hunting (and yes, some come from trial dogs)
fuzz

I lived in the sandhills for 4 years and hunted chickens and sharpies a ton. That is some tough country for dogs. Not just the birds, but the "bleep" cactus and sand burrs are brutal. I moved to ND, and I have to say that I don't miss the cactus or the sand burrs. I will say there is no where on Earth where the PC hunting is better. No where!

[jlp8cornell]

JKP's point is easy to see in an extreme situation, like coastal duck hunting with temps in the 40's, 15 -25 MPH winds all day and rain. Most of the V dogs should be home on days like that. They are too light, too narrow, too lean, too thin in coat and too fidgety.

Extreme? 40's with wind. LOL. That's pleasant here on a good day! You are spoiled in coastal NJ!

[BigShooter]

you'd be all over me

Just because you make something up so you can make some deragatory statement about double standards doesn't make it true. You presume too much sir. However, I will not be baited into continuing a discussion that has already made everyone nauseous.

[Georgia Boy]

I have seen far more good field dogs that didn't get it done in the water than the other way around. I'm not arguing what's best...I'm saying that you go get a pup from folks that have proven for generations that their dogs DO what you want.

I have to agree with that statment. It has been my experience that a great search on land does not necessarily translate to a great search in the water. Attribute it to what you want, the breeder not exposing the dogs to the water or whatever, but when you get 8 week old pups, and expose them properly and they still have no desire to chase or search for a duck (or even swim for that matter)it should tell you something. If you are looking for a water dog why would you even consider field trail dogs? Are some of these dogs capable of doing the work, sure but I like to have as many of the odds in my favor as possible. Which is why I suggested looking at the DD. They have been breeding only proven dogs for the last 100 + years with the records to prove it. No need to take someones word for it or assume a dog that retrieves a pigeon that was thrown out 10 feet from the bank while the dog watches will make you a bonafied water dog. I hunt my male on swift moving rivers, up and down the eastern coast from North Carolina to Maryland as well as the Dakotas,on occasion in 40 mph winds with temps at 0-15 degrees. Two years ago when the big blizzard hit the Dakotas we were there and he was the only dog the whole trip to retrieve from the water or sometimes just take a swim, he had just turned 12 months old at the time. He has the desire, coat and body type for that kind of work. On top of that he is great in the field. Snips was up a few weeks ago to get a couple pups on ducks in the water and help us with some field work. When she saw my male "break away" she said I could run him in horseback Maybe she was kidding, I dont know

JKP, Hes one of those "bleep" hog dogs as well.

[labman21]

Wow thanks for all the comments guys. Most of them were you guys arguing about random subjects but I mainly wanted to know if a wirehair is going to be able to take extreme temperatures like -30 with a blizzard which are very realistic and still be in a frisky birdy mood.

[fuzznut]

Quite honestly? If it's -30 I'm not going to be out there to find out if the dog can take it or not! He and I will be in the nice warm house.
Why would you want to be working dogs in water when it was -30?
But I suppose at that temp, they could walk on water!
Fuzz

[Anaconda Pintler]

This is AP duck hunting the Clark Fork river south of Larurel with temps around -26 that balmy day it was so cold he wouldnt get out of the water the water temp was way warmer than the air!



Stormy the same day after duck hunt we were hunting Pheasant along some railroad tracks!



they can take it but you have to keep a close eye on them, but I am like Fuzz not sure I want to anymore! And I have never had any dogs with the heart and drive as those two either, I have a black gwp that would have quit me in a heartbeat, so my point is if you decide on a GWP for that type of hunting ALOT of research should go into the breeding!

[labman21]

Thanks guys I see that they are durable enough for Montana whenever it is time for a new pup I'll make sure I look into the breeding history.

By the way if the morning started off -30 chances are pretty good you wouldn't find me out in the blind but weather can change amazingly fast and if the ducks are dropping I may not want to leave. Thanks for the help everybody.