Anyone with experience with Sm Munsterlander or Ge Longhairs

mbathke · Post by **mbathke** » Wed Aug 25, 2010 11:10 am

I have been looking at getting a new hunting dog for quite some time and think I have my selection narrowed down to two different breeds, either a Small Munsterlander or German Longhair, I think. I have no experience with either of these breeds and was hoping that maybe a few people on this forum had, and they could give me some advice as to which breed may be better suited for me. I am also open to other breed suggestions as long as it is not a lab.

In the past my pheasant hunting companians have been German Shorthairs and Wirehairs, Britany Spaniels, and currently I hunt with Gordon Setters that my parents breed. I love hunting pheasant with the Gordon Setters as they are more my speed then Brittanies, and they have a much better temperment than our GSP or GWP's had. The Gordons make great pets as well as they have a great temperment and do very well as a house dog. However, only two of the 5 Gordons my parents have will do water retrieves reliably and they really don't like doing it, ecspecially when it is cold and windy out, and I can't blame them, they have a thick long coat that can really soak up the water.

I do alot of pheasant hunting and waterfowl hunting and really would like to find one dog that I can do both with effectively. When I pheasant hunt I want a dog that has a strong natural pointing ability and with training will honor and hunt with other pointers well, and when I waterfowl hunt I would like a dog that can reliably retrieve ducks from the water with proper training. One thing I enjoy about my parents Gordon's is how when they get birdy they slow down and get low to the ground and seem to try and sneek up to the bird before they go on point, really letting you know that "hey, there is a bird over here". Most of the waterfowl hunting I do on water is in the early part of the season before it starts to get to cold, usually nothing past the second week of November as I live in Northwest Iowa and after that field hunting for mallards and geese is a little more active after then. If I could find a breed that pheasant hunted like a Gordon and had thier temperment, and was a reliable retriever like a Lab, I would be in heaven, and I don't think I would own any other breed again.

So basically what I am looking for is a dog that I can take out on the duck boat in the morning and take pheasant hunting afterwords. WIll either of these breeds fulfill what I am looking for in a hunting dog, or will another breed be a better fit. The reason I do not want to get a lab is because I don't enjoy hunting pheasants with them, my friend raises pointing labs and they are great in the duck blind and effective in the field hunting pheasants but its just not the same as hunting over a good pointer or setter. Also, I have a house in the country and the dog will primarily be a house dog but it will be able to spend plenty of time outside as well getting exercise or doing training. I work at home so I will be able to spend plenty of time with the dog.

Also, I always hunt and train with an e-collar, are either of these breeds soft on an e-collar, and is one easier to train then the other. My experience with Gordon's is that they can be very soft on the e-collar and "stimulating" them even on the lowest setting, be it for safety or a correction, can sometimes bring them to your hip for the next 5 minutes of the hunt, but they are also normally very obedient "stimulating" them happens on very rare ocassions.
Any advice, suggestions, or personal experience would be greatly appreciated, along with any suggestions on good breeders for these breeds or any one suggested.

Thanks,
Matt

JKP · Post by **JKP** » Wed Aug 25, 2010 11:34 am

I have seen a fair number of SM and Langhaar in Germany and I think either breed could do what you want. Both breeds are tested and bred under the same JGHV guidelines that the other Euro-versatiles follow. I have a very good friend that trained Langhaar for years and prefers them over the DD and DK, the two most popular Vdogs in Germany. I don't think that either breed has gained a huge foothold in this country so I would take some time and do some homework.

As far as the coats go, you will have to take that up with the various breeders. The better coats I have seen in both breeds are not as soft as the typical Setter coat, for instance, but I don't know if they retain water less or not. I will say that I doubt the desire to retrieve will be a problem.

Good luck.

BigShooter · Post by **BigShooter** » Wed Aug 25, 2010 11:42 am

You can use the Advanced Search, located at the top right hand corner of each page. Below are a few results from an advanced search on German Longhair. You can do your own search for "Small Musterlander" threads.

Check these prior threads:

http://www.gundogforum.com/forum/viewto ... n+Longhair
http://www.gundogforum.com/forum/viewto ... n+Longhair
http://www.gundogforum.com/forum/viewto ... n+Longhair
http://www.gundogforum.com/forum/viewto ... n+longhair
http://www.gundogforum.com/forum/viewto ... n+longhair
http://www.gundogforum.com/forum/viewto ... n+longhair

mbathke · Post by **mbathke** » Wed Aug 25, 2010 12:41 pm

Thank you very much for the info and the links to the other threads about the breads, looked like there was some good info there.

One other question I forgot to include with my initial post was if either breed had a stronger pointing ability.

Thanks Again.

Post by **Greg Jennings** » Wed Aug 25, 2010 12:58 pm

Just to stir the conversation, why are you interested in those two breeds?

If you just plain like the looks of them and want the best of those breeds that you can get, then skip over the rest of this...

If, however, you are looking for a dog of any breed that best meets the requirements that you've lined out, I think you would have better odds looking for lines/individual dogs in breeds with a larger gene pool to select from.

mbathke · Post by **mbathke** » Wed Aug 25, 2010 1:37 pm

I do really like the way both of these breeds look, but it is not the ultimate deciding factor for what dog I want to get. I guess if I was going to rate the importance of characteristics it would be 1. pointing/hunting ability 2. retrieving ability 3. temperment 4. size/looks. I found these two breeds when I started looking into versital dog breeds and they seemed to be what I was looking for, but I really wasn't able to find any information on them besides breeders websites or general breed info pages, nothing really on individuals first hand experience with the breeds in upland and waterfowl hunting.

As far as looking for specific lines inside of a breed for the traits I wanted, I really haven't given that much thought and I really wouldn't know where to start. If you have any suggestions of breed lines that would be what I am looking for I would greetly appreciate them.

BigShooter · Post by **BigShooter** » Wed Aug 25, 2010 2:03 pm

There's some more interesting reading in this poll: http://www.gundogforum.com/forum/viewto ... 87&t=12029 .

I went back to check the poll. There are still only two votes registered by forum members for German Longhairs & only four votes for Munsterlanders. The poll shows you relative popularity & gene pool size of various listed gun dog breeds of forum members. There are reasons why certain versatile breeds are more popular and it's generally because people were able to find the right combinations of traits they were looking for. I doubt very much there is any versatile breed where no breeders or owners hunt waterfowl with their dogs for instance. I can almost guarantee you that if all the dogs of any versatile breed were hyper that breed wouldn't enjoy much ownership.

I wouldn't dismiss any breeds because of a few dogs of that breed you have known. More often than not you're likely to find individual dogs or lines of dogs within most popular versatile breeds to satisfy your needs. I'm not trying to discourage your interest in these two breeds I'm just sayin' ....

mcbosco · Post by **mcbosco** » Wed Aug 25, 2010 2:20 pm

mbathke wrote:I do really like the way both of these breeds look, but it is not the ultimate deciding factor for what dog I want to get. I guess if I was going to rate the importance of characteristics it would be 1. pointing/hunting ability 2. retrieving ability 3. temperment 4. size/looks. I found these two breeds when I started looking into versital dog breeds and they seemed to be what I was looking for, but I really wasn't able to find any information on them besides breeders websites or general breed info pages, nothing really on individuals first hand experience with the breeds in upland and waterfowl hunting.

As far as looking for specific lines inside of a breed for the traits I wanted, I really haven't given that much thought and I really wouldn't know where to start. If you have any suggestions of breed lines that would be what I am looking for I would greetly appreciate them.

http://smallmunsterlander.org/breeders.cfm

Start with the club.

to the point · Post by **to the point** » Wed Aug 25, 2010 4:05 pm

Check out the Pudelpointer I have seen some nice dogs in that line.

solon · Post by **solon** » Wed Aug 25, 2010 5:04 pm

I have Small Munsterlanders and a couple of cover dog type English Setters. Both of these breeds are similar in size, but comparing the SM to the ES , it being a versatile breed, one can be generalized to say that retrieving is a stronger trait in the SM compared to the ES, pointing is much stronger in the ES, although the SM pointing is adequate. Many people test their versatile breeds with NAVHDA and there is a considerable emphasis on water work with the NAVHDA UT test. So lines of versatile dogs that have done well in NAVHDA testing should meet your requirements. The SM is usually not particularly heat tolerant, the coat is fairly long. With a neoprene vest, the SM can do waterfowl in all but the more severe conditions where a lab or chessie would excel. Depending on where you live and the terrain that you hunt, the ES is a faster dog with greater range than an SM, probably does better before the shot and the SM will do better after the shot. The Europeans but a lot of emphasis on the recovery of game after the shot.

I have only seen two German Longhaars at a NAVHDA test and they were not impressive. Their population in the US is less than the SM, hence they have a smaller gene pool. They are also much larger than the SM. The Large Munsterlander is a black and white version of the German Longhaar. The ones I have seen are a bit weak on pointing in the uplands and very strong on the water retrieving. The SM is apparently a good pheasant dog, because most of the owners that hunt their SMs live in the pheasant states.

The most popular NAVHDA dog is the GSP. Pudel pointers also do very well in NAVHDA testing. So much of making a choice boils down to how you like the looks of a given breed and particular dogs in that breed and your preference for hunting style. From what you have written, one of the versatile breeds should fit your needs well.

Solon

BigShooter · Post by **BigShooter** » Wed Aug 25, 2010 8:19 pm

Solon,

My compliments on a nice post.

mbathke,

Here's another relevant thread with some pretty good discussion you should read through: http://www.gundogforum.com/forum/viewto ... =69&t=5614

Munster · Post by **Munster** » Wed Aug 25, 2010 8:54 pm

PM Sent

mbathke · Post by **mbathke** » Wed Aug 25, 2010 9:14 pm

to the point wrote:Check out the Pudelpointer I have seen some nice dogs in that line.

The only problem with Pudelpointers is my Father told me he wouldn't let me hunt with him anymore if I got one. They do look like really shap dogs though from the pictures I have saw after I googled them, I honestly hadn't heard of them before you mentioned them. Only Pudel cross I have ever seen in the field is the Labradoodle, they are pretty popular around here for duck and goose hunting.

TraditionsGSPs2010 · Post by **TraditionsGSPs2010** » Wed Aug 25, 2010 9:22 pm

We have a gal in our NAVHDA chapter (MO Uplands) that has really done her homework on the Langhaars. Her name is Sharon Krull and she just sold one of her dogs off this website not long ago. She goes under the name "Jagerherzen". I would go so far as she is a nerd on the breed and I mean that with utmost affection. I wouldn't hesitate contacting her about your interest in the GL. From what I have seen from her dogs is that they are a nice, versatile dog. There are so few of them in the US that she has brought her dogs in from across the pond. We also have a coupe SM in the club and they are also nice dogs...

I think the one thing that sticks out to me about these two breeds is do your homework. Because they are less common and there are fewer animals around to breed to, they seem to have more problems. Even the our club members who thought they had done their due diligence found their dogs to have serious enough faults they were not deemed worthy as breed stock.

Good Luck!

mbathke · Post by **mbathke** » Wed Aug 25, 2010 9:35 pm

BigShooter wrote: Here's another relevant thread with some pretty good discussion you should read through: http://www.gundogforum.com/forum/viewto ... =69&t=5614

Thank you very much for that link, on that thread there was great info on there that think will help me out alot, plus there was also this post:

quoteby Richard *UT* » Tue Feb 20, 2007 6:57 am

www.Birddogsforever.com has a podcast #49 where they talk to a breeder in Denmark. Here is the Link to the episode http://feeds.feedburner.com/birddogsforever

Looks to be a great source of information, on a large amounts of breeds, not just the SM's or the GL's

Thanks Again

mcbosco · Post by **mcbosco** » Thu Aug 26, 2010 5:50 am

mbathke wrote:
to the point wrote:Check out the Pudelpointer I have seen some nice dogs in that line.
The only problem with Pudelpointers is my Father told me he wouldn't let me hunt with him anymore if I got one. They do look like really shap dogs though from the pictures I have saw after I googled them, I honestly hadn't heard of them before you mentioned them. Only Pudel cross I have ever seen in the field is the Labradoodle, they are pretty popular around here for duck and goose hunting.

http://www.redhuntingpoodles.com/

Post by **Greg Jennings** » Thu Aug 26, 2010 6:18 am

In general, I tell folks that if they are interested in promoting the breed to go for it. If they're just trying to find a better dog, their odds are better looking at individual dogs/lines/breeders within the established breeds.

Highly recommend that you look up the local NAVHDA chapter and spend some time looking over the dogs.

You might also consider buying a finished or started dog. You have a *much* better idea of what you're getting than if you buy a pup.

Greg J.

Jagerherzen · Post by **Jagerherzen** » Thu Aug 26, 2010 9:34 am

Matt –
To expound and clarify on some of the statements provided.
1) There are German Longhairs and Deutsch Langhaars. Although DLs are sometimes referred to GLPs they are not bred to the same strict breeding standards. Also, in Germany you will find KM’s not SMs. The distinguishing characteristics are the breeding regulations based on JGHV which do in part define the breed. The 2 dogs referred to in Vermont are GLPs. I know of the dogs and the owner , I know the NAVHDA judge who trained them and I know a NAVDHA judge who also saw both and I can assure you they are not DLs and based on what I was told the assessment mentioned here of those two particular dogs is accurate. If you would like any other testimonials of the DL and those who have both seen them work and hunted behind them I can also provide those.
2) I now have my 5th DL. All from different lines. All with a breeding coefficient under 2% also. I have had 2 with breed eliminating faults as Traditions mentioned. I’m sure he could also give a first had account of Dusty who earned the respect of many a NAVHDA member both inside Mouplands and out. 1 of my 5 dogs had allergies and 1 had missing teeth. Now in some breed clubs (if you are even a member of one) those are not breeding eliminating faults unless it is by personal choice or standards. For me it is both. The DL has one of the strictest standards for breeding. There are no more faults in it than any other breed. But I am sure there are people who would breed their dogs with faults anyway. The gene poole is smaller than some of the versatiles. That is why diligence to prevent proliferation of negative traits is even more important. But to say the small gene poole results in lower quality and fewer quality dogs is an utterly ridiculous and blanket statement. By sheer number? Probably. By percentage. I doubt it. The DLV (parent breed club in Germany) is addressing the gene poole issues. There are over nearly 700 DL pups born annually in the DLV. DL-GNA will have several litters this fall and winter. DL-GNA has imported 6 DLs from Germany in the last year. The focus is on high quality consistency – not one hit wonders.
3) There is a fallacy that is perpetuated that rare = less desirable and for a reason. To the contrary, the DLV has been extremely protective about exporting dogs to a country that has been known for the degradation of several hunting breeds such as the red setter – now the irish setter. And what really happened to the hunting gene poole of the golden retriever?

Now to answer your questions. A lot of info can be gleaned by going to the http://www.dl-gna.org site. DLs excel in water work and tracking and are particularly strong pointers.
Shoot me a PM of where you are located and I get you hooked up to see some - in your area most likely.

Good luck with your scouting and your decision.

Ryman Gun Dog · Post by **Ryman Gun Dog** » Thu Aug 26, 2010 12:01 pm

Matt,
If you want a fantastic Small Munsterlander contact Dean Rasmussen out in SD at Lonesome Dove Kennels. 605-532-5485 Dean has the best SM dogs in the USA and his dogs are all trained on wild SD Pheasants. We have one SM stud dog left here and he fathered a fantastic litter with one of Deans Lonedsome Dove females. The pups are just incredible upland hunting machines. As Grouse hunting dogs here in Pa, they are top shelf and as Pheasant hunters the dogs have few equals, and planted birds are not even a challenge when you hunt behind one of these animals.
RGD/Dave

L.C. is one of Dean and my SM pups, she is a machine in both the Grouse woods and Pheasant fields, and a great family member also, we trained her here at Pine Creek Grouse Dog Trainers for Mike and his son Mitch.

A little high grade mixed brace training with the SM and GSP, holding a pinned wild Pheasant and waiting for the flush on command signal from my brother Kurt.

Sampson our SM Stud dog with his true double taken with a Elsie 16 Guage Hammer Gun

JKP · Post by **JKP** » Thu Aug 26, 2010 12:18 pm

I can understand the gene pool issue but I think thre is enough here and in Germany. With 700 pups/yr and ALL from performance background, I suspect that woud rival mmany of the lesser known breeds here.

If I understand the issue, there is an appreciation of the Setter look and style but a greater need for more "grit" when it comes to waterwork. To me another obvious answer would be to find some Setter breeders that can provide dogs with the "grit" (haven't there been several UT 1 Setters, even a VC?). Yes the Euro dogs are bred for and expected to handle the water chores (and some handle big game as well) so I would expect them to have a good bit of moxy...but I have a hard time believing that there aren't some Setters with some "feist" to them as well. Or am I wrong??

solon · Post by **solon** » Thu Aug 26, 2010 12:20 pm

Ryman Gun Dog wrote:Matt,
If you want a fantastic Small Munsterlander contact Dean Rasmussen out in SD at Lonesome Dove Kennels. 605-532-5485 Dean has the best SM dogs in the USA and his dogs are all trained on wild SD Pheasants. We have one SM stud dog left here and he fathered a fantastic litter with one of Deans Lonedsome Dove females.
RGD/Dave

I am glad that you like your SM and Dean's SMs. The hyperbole is obvious, but get your facts straight as well. Dean's kennel is not Lonesome Dove, that kennel is owned by Bill Dove in Cranbrook, BC and he started his kennel with blood from Ray DeJong from SD. Here is Dean's kennel's web site:

http://www.rasmussendakotakennel.com/

It is a stretch to say Dean has the best SMs in the USA, because Dean doesn't test or train them to a very high level (not saying I do either, but I am not making any claims). I like Dean and I am not knocking his dogs and he surely lives in a great spot for bird hunting. Compare Dean's results with Kris Hill's, for example:

http://www.hunthills.com/home.html

I just think you have to keep it real man.

By the way, my understanding is that the Large Munsterlander is a breed that split off from the GLP or DL because the latter's breed club decided to eliminate the black coat color. So the fanciers of the black in the coat of their DLs started their own breed, Large Munsterlander. To this day, the LM occasionally produces pups with brown and white coats. Now those that know these breeds better than I do, may be able to tell you how much the LM and the GLP/DL have diverged since that split.

Solon

Ryman Gun Dog · Post by **Ryman Gun Dog** » Thu Aug 26, 2010 12:29 pm

Solon,
You are correct about only one item, I did give the incorrect name for Deans kennel, you did list the correct name. As far as the testing goes Deans stud dogs and dames are tested GVP in Germany, before they arrive here in the USA, then he trains the off spring as Pheasnat dogs in SD and they are the best SM dogs around. That sir is keeping it real. Chris Hill tests NAVHDA thru the SM club which is no GVP test at all, unsanctioned by the German standard and Breed Wardens. Don't get me wrong Chris has some very fine dogs. I have interfaced with him a few times about his breeding program, I recommend Deans animals to our clients, every dog has proven itself as a companion Grouse & Pheasant hunters. By the way my stud dog is a Sengpiel from the original German dog. He is very very old now, I am trusting Dean to replace him in the near future.
RGD/Dave

solon · Post by **solon** » Thu Aug 26, 2010 12:32 pm

Dave,

You may be right about Dean's imports, however I don't see any GVP results listed on his web site and he does mention NAVHDA test results.

Solon

mbathke · Post by **mbathke** » Thu Aug 26, 2010 12:42 pm

Ryman Gun Dog wrote:Matt,
If you want a fantastic Small Munsterlander contact Dean Rasmussen out in SD at Lonesome Dove Kennels. 605-532-5485 Dean has the best SM dogs in the USA and his dogs are all trained on wild SD Pheasants. We have one SM stud dog left here and he fathered a fantastic litter with one of Deans Lonedsome Dove females. The pups are just incredible upland hunting machines. As Grouse hunting dogs here in Pa, they are top shelf and as Pheasant hunters the dogs have few equals, and planted birds are not even a challenge when you hunt behind one of these animals.
RGD/Dave

L.C. is one of Dean and my SM pups, she is a machine in both the Grouse woods and Pheasant fields, and a great family member also, we trained her here at Pine Creek Grouse Dog Trainers for Mike and his son Mitch.

That is a nice looking dog you have there, as far as size is concerned, SM's seem to me to be more along the lines of an American Britt, is that correct?

Ryman Gun Dog · Post by **Ryman Gun Dog** » Thu Aug 26, 2010 12:57 pm

M,
Our German SM dogs are a might larger than most Brits, some people due compare them for general size however. Coloring for the SM dogs can vary greatly,
ours happen to be the traditional German coloring of roan, white and ticked, here in the USA & Canada colors vary greatly. Myself I like the roan, white and ticked
coloring. I also like my SM dogs to have a beautiful Setter type tail, not the shorter skinney tail some dogs possess.

Solon,
Dean does not list the GVP Pedigree info and we have had several conversations about it. I have tried to get him to list both, the German Pedigree and the NAVHDA
but he keeps that info and shows it to his clients only. Each to his own, Dean runs his kennel his way, I respect him greatly.

RGD/Dave

Sampson our SM Stud dog on Grouse Point in the Pa woods

Sampson pointing a Woodcock, note the difference in the tail position.

Jagerherzen · Post by **Jagerherzen** » Thu Aug 26, 2010 1:38 pm

The GM in Germany (not the LM) were split from the DL over a hundred years ago and it took some time thereafter to establish the GM as a separate breed. So yes, they are now different breeds and both the GM and LM are bred to different standards. The GM gene poole is even smaller than the DL and they have been crossed back to the DL at least twice since the split resulting in the occasional throwback to the brown color as previously noted.

solon · Post by **solon** » Thu Aug 26, 2010 1:49 pm

[quote="Ryman Gun Dog"]M,

Solon,
Dean does not list the GVP Pedigree info and we have had several conversations about it. I have tried to get him to list both, the German Pedigree and the NAVHDA
but he keeps that info and shows it to his clients only. Each to his own, Dean runs his kennel his way, I respect him greatly.

RGD/Dave

Not to beat a dead horse further, so we are talking about dogs in Dean's dog's pedigrees, not Dean's dogs themselves. I am sure their records are public info if one wanted to search it out. For example, his Jumbo's sire was well tested: Zar: VJP 72, HZP 191 and VGP 342-very good scores. Jumbo's dam: Esta VJP 66, HZP 174.

Zeus's sire Enzo, I have no record for and Zeus's dam was Danish, not German.

His other dogs as far as I know were American bred, although he may have some recent imports.

And I know that your Samson came from Barbara Krieger. Don't forget, I keep the health database for the SMCNA.

Solon

mbathke · Post by **mbathke** » Thu Aug 26, 2010 2:37 pm

Jagerherzen wrote:The GM in Germany (not the LM) were split from the DL over a hundred years ago and it took some time thereafter to establish the GM as a separate breed. So yes, they are now different breeds and both the GM and LM are bred to different standards. The GM gene poole is even smaller than the DL and they have been crossed back to the DL at least twice since the split resulting in the occasional throwback to the brown color as previously noted.

Thank you very much for your posts they have been very informative, the dl-gna website looks like a great source of information. I think I missed something though, when you are refuring to GM's what are those?

solon · Post by **solon** » Thu Aug 26, 2010 2:45 pm

mbathke wrote:
Jagerherzen wrote: Thank you very much for your posts they have been very informative, the dl-gna website looks like a great source of information. I think I missed something though, when you are refuring to GM's what are those?

It is all in the translation. Grosse or Grosser Munsterlander with the appropriate German alphabet for Large Munsterlander, Kleine Munsterlander for Small Munsterlander, DK for Deutche Kurzhar for German Shorthair, DD for Deutsche Drahthaar for German Wirehair, Deutsche Langhaar for German Longhair. Where it has some significance is that if a member of the breed comes from Europe and is registered with the FCI, it is usually referred to by the German name, for example DK instead of GSP.

http://www.grossermuensterlaender.de/home.htm

Solon

Munster · Post by **Munster** » Thu Aug 26, 2010 4:39 pm

Ryman Gun Dog wrote:Solon,
You are correct about only one item, I did give the incorrect name for Deans kennel, you did list the correct name. As far as the testing goes Deans stud dogs and dames are tested GVP in Germany, before they arrive here in the USA, then he trains the off spring as Pheasnat dogs in SD and they are the best SM dogs around. That sir is keeping it real. Chris Hill tests NAVHDA thru the SM club which is no GVP test at all, unsanctioned by the German standard and Breed Wardens. Don't get me wrong Chris has some very fine dogs. I have interfaced with him a few times about his breeding program, I recommend Deans animals to our clients, every dog has proven itself as a companion Grouse & Pheasant hunters. By the way my stud dog is a Sengpiel from the original German dog. He is very very old now, I am trusting Dean to replace him in the near future.
RGD/Dave

Wasnt sure if you are aware that Kris Hill is a female and yes her dogs have been tested through the German system. At least her imports were. Not sure what you mean about "tests NAVHDA thru the SM club". But the amount of time and dedication that she puts into her breeding program and testing shouldnt be slighted. Sorry, but that struck a nerve.

But I would have to agree with Solon. that by singling out one breeder in the whole U.S. as the best is a bold statement. I am not as worldly as some of the veteran club memebers. But I have been around long enough to see some fine SM's that were hunting machines. I dont think that I would even single out one breeder as the best. They all bring impotant things to the table.

It is good, in some ways, that you are loyal to your breeder.

micha · Post by **micha** » Thu Aug 26, 2010 8:11 pm

I just bought my first long hair pointer. She is a retrieving manic she just turned 6 months old. she is very mellow like my golden pointed her first pheasant this week. I also saw one german dog a male that was very aggressive. I got mine from ruby rose in illonois. her dogs are from Holland very nice lady. good luck

Munster · Post by **Munster** » Thu Aug 26, 2010 8:33 pm

micha wrote:I just bought my first long hair pointer. She is a retrieving manic she just turned 6 months old. she is very mellow like my golden pointed her first pheasant this week. I also saw one german dog a male that was very aggressive. I got mine from ruby rose in illonois. her dogs are from Holland very nice lady. good luck

I was wondering about this because I dont know anything about the breed. Are they by nature a sharp dog? This is what I have heard from some. Is this true?

demi · Post by **demi** » Thu Aug 26, 2010 9:26 pm

"By the way, my understanding is that the Large Munsterlander is a breed that split off from the GLP or DL because the latter's breed club decided to eliminate the black coat color. So the fanciers of the black in the coat of their DLs started their own breed, Large Munsterlander. To this day, the LM occasionally produces pups with brown and white coats. Now those that know these breeds better than I do, may be able to tell you how much the LM and the GLP/DL have diverged since that split."

As I understand the breed history of the Large Munsterlander, you are correct. Basically, the black and white GLP would throw both brown and black pups, while the brown GLP's would throw only brown pups, so the black and white dogs were eliminated from the breed, and the Large Munsterlander became a separate breed. A brown and white Large Munsterlander is still possible today, but genetic testing for the brown gene is available to prevent a mating of two LM's with the recessive gene for brown pups. I asked Sheila Schmutz, a geneticist and the Breed Warden's wife for the LMCNA if there are any genetic differences today between the GLP and the LM. Her reply was basically that there are "marker genes" that go along with the color genes, but the significance of those genes is unknown. With that, and the separate breeding for the past 100 years we would expect some genetic differences between the two breeds. Also, the LMCNA has accepted the International LM size standard with an added 2 cm's to the height from the FCI standard.

We now have two LM's. Our first LM is a NAVHDA UT Prize I, trained by myself, a complete rookie when it came to training a versatile dog. We achieved that Prize only because of her natural talent, well, and maybe a little hard work

She is awesome and I wouldn't trade her for the world. She loves nothing more than to be out hunting, both field and water and loves to retrieve. We can leave her home in house when we are gone and if she so desires, I share my half of the bed with her. Another LM joined our family in July and she is already showing lots of potential. Unless you are against the black and white coloring, I wouldn't discount the LM. Let me know if you would like to see some pics or want more information

LIke Greg said, I would recommend that you go to some NAVHDA training days and tests and watch dogs work and talk to people about their breed/dog. I am in SE South Dakota, we have a test next weekend, I'm not sure what breed of dogs are running but I could find for you if you are interested in stopping by. Talk to breeders, ask lots of questions and ask for names of people that own pups from their kennel and talk to them. In my opinion, that is your best source of information. Good Luck!!

Jagerherzen · Post by **Jagerherzen** » Thu Aug 26, 2010 9:28 pm

A well bred versatile regardless of breed is not agressive any more than it is gun shy, gun sensitive or shy around people.
Occasionally things crop up, whether it be hip dysplasia, or temperment issues or whatever.
DLs are not agressive. This is perpetuated fallacy similar to those who say that DDs are agressive.
Temperment evaluation is part of breeding certification. Do some slip through the cracks? Maybe. But they are the exception not the norm.

I do not know a lot about Ruby Rose GLPs. Other than a NAVHDA natural ability test, what other evaluations are done? Do breeding stock have hip x-rays?

I suggest visiting some DLs. Hunting behind them would be best as well as spectating at JGHV tests and possibly NAVHDA events.

Munster · Post by **Munster** » Thu Aug 26, 2010 9:36 pm

Jagerherzen wrote:A well bred versatile regardless of breed is not agressive any more than it is gun shy, gun sensitive or shy around people.
Occasionally things crop up, whether it be hip dysplasia, or temperment issues or whatever.
DLs are not agressive. This is perpetuated fallacy similar to those who say that DDs are agressive.
Temperment evaluation is part of breeding certification. Do some slip through the cracks? Maybe. But they are the exception not the norm.

I do not know a lot about Ruby Rose GLPs. Other than a NAVHDA natural ability test, what other evaluations are done? Do breeding stock have hip x-rays?

I suggest visiting some DLs. Hunting behind them would be best as well as spectating at JGHV tests and possibly NAVHDA events.

Thank you for clearing that up. I had heard the same things with DD's. But I have met a few of them and have never seen any of them aggressive. Figured the same would be true here.

mbathke · Post by **mbathke** » Thu Aug 26, 2010 10:01 pm

micha wrote:I just bought my first long hair pointer. She is a retrieving manic she just turned 6 months old. she is very mellow like my golden pointed her first pheasant this week. I also saw one german dog a male that was very aggressive. I got mine from ruby rose in illonois. her dogs are from Holland very nice lady. good luck

Congragulatoins on the new dog, glad you like her. I think I am leaning more towards the DL then the SM after seeing all of the information about them. I probably won't make a final decision on what dog breed I will get until I have a chance to see them in person. You metioned that one of the German's you saw was very aggressive, is that to say it would bark aggressively at strangers and you were concerned about being bit?

In the past we had GSP's, and GWP's and all of those besides 1 female GWP we had to put down by the age of 5 because they became a bite risk and two of the male GWP's, which we had at different times, were nice mellow dogs and then from about 3 and half to 5, they started started to become aggessive even to others in the household. One thing to note is, this was almost 20 years ago, and I am sure that these traits have been breed out of at least some lines or to some extent across the whole GWP and GSP breeds. Also, back then we were told that the GWP's had one bloodline that was breed for guard dogs that was brought to the US intially and that line was mixed in with the ones we had, and thats why ours were agressive, don't no if there is any truth in that though.

The American britt's we had would bark aggresively if anyone besides us drove up on the yard(a very rare occasion on our acreage in the country), but it was never a concern about them biting people. The Gordon's bark when people come on the yard to, it doesn't seem agressive really, its more of an alarm, and with the 5 my parents currently have and thier prior ones, there was/is really no concern about any of them biting anyone, they are just very affectionate to anyone they come across.

So I guess to get to my question, do the DL's in general have the temperment more of a setter or do they have a tendency to be more agressive then that? I don't have children but some friends do, 1-6 now and I don't want to have to worry about the dog biting any of them when they come over. Also, could you let me know where you saw the agressive German at via PM? I am thinking that if I one it would most likely be from the MN, WI, or the IL breeders as they would be about the closest unless there is someone breeding the DL in SD, IA, or NE, but I haven't seen any.

Anyway, Thanks again for the info.

TraditionsGSPs2010 · Post by **TraditionsGSPs2010** » Thu Aug 26, 2010 10:24 pm

Two things here:

Thank you for pointing out Kris is a lady. That struck a nerve with me too. I would like to know how your conversation went with "him" based on this fact. I have had the opportunity to meet her a couple of times at NAVHDA tests and she is a wonderful person and extremely dedicated to the breed. She would be the first person I would contact.

Jagerherzen,

I was wondering how long it would take you to get involved with this conversation and i knew you would not disappoint! I knew sooner or later you would expound on the wonderful virtues of the German Setter... I kid, I kid!!!! Not only was your pup Dusty a great dog but also Breeze who I understand is mopping it up in OK.

PntrRookie · Post by **PntrRookie** » Fri Aug 27, 2010 6:41 am

mbathke wrote:I am thinking that if I one it would most likely be from the MN, WI, or the IL breeders as they would be about the closest unless there is someone breeding the DL in SD, IA, or NE, but I haven't seen any.

In WI - http://www.coraschatten.com/
In MN http://www.jagerherzen.com/
In CO - http://www.deutschlanghaar.com/

Cora's Shadow · Post by **Cora's Shadow** » Fri Aug 27, 2010 7:15 am

I know I'm a little late to jump into this conversation but thought I would throw in my 2 cents for whatever its worth. I grew up hunting with GSPs and some labs but the first dog I bought when I graduated from college was a Small Munsterlander. I can't say that he was representative of the entire breed, but I did get him from one of the breeders previously talked about and I was unimpressed. After getting that dog, I wanted to find another pointing dog with stronger natural abilities as well as a calmer temperament. I narrowed my search down to the German-bred versatiles (DDs, DLs, and DKs) because I wanted a dog that naturally pointed, swam, and retrieved out of the box. I like to duck hunt a lot so I threw out DKs because I live in Wisconsin and I thought it would be too cold for a short-haired dog to retrieve waterfowl during the late season. And when I looked at DDs and DLs, I could see that they had very similar testing/breeding requirements so I figured it was pretty much a toss-up between the two breeds. I eventually decided on a DL because I liked the look better and DLs are known for having a little softer temperament (which I thought would suit my training style a little better).

I currently own 3 Deutsch Langhaars: a female that will be 5 in October (NA Prize I, UT Prize I, VJP-67, HZP-190), a 10-month old female (NA Prize I, VJP-69), and a 4-month old male. I think it is amusing to read this thread and see folks saying that since the breed is a little rare in North America, that you should really research your lines. I think the opposite is true. Because the breed is so heavily regulated by the testing system, you don't have to do any research at all. You can buy a DL puppy from any breeding in North America and Germany and it will be a good hunting dog. Jagerherzen has had 5 DLs all from completely different lines and having seen most of them, I can definitely say that most hunters in the US would be very happy with them. All 3 of my current DLs are from different lines and they were all really talented. They all point at a young age (see photo below of my boy pointing his first planted bird at 12 weeks of age) and LOVE to retrieve (again, see photo below of 12 week old pup plunging into the water to retrieve). They are easy to train and make excellent house dogs because of their calm, cooperative temperaments. DLs (as well as DDs, DKs, and other German-bred versatiles) also tend to mature faster than a lot of other breeds...probably in large part due to the testing system which requires them to be finished dogs by the time they are about 2 years old. My 10-month old is already steady to wing, shot, and fall and force-broke. I very nearly her in a NAVHDA Utility test this weekend because she is doing so well in her training.

In regards to the question about temperament, I would say that a DL's temperament is different from that of a setter. I owned an English Setter for a while too and she was a very sweet dog, but extremely soft. Although DLs are often described as having a soft temperament, in my experience, it is not as soft as a setter. They can take a moderate amount of pressure. I train all of our dogs with an e-collar and it works great. My DLs are more protective of the house than the setter was (they bark at every stranger that pulls into the driveway), but they melt into wagging friendly bodies as soon as the person approaches. In the field, my DLs do have a little more sharpness towards game. They don't put up with wounded game scratching or biting at them. Normally, everything gets brought back to me dead...especially rooster pheasants. I have hunted with friends with setters who refused to retrieve wounded pheasants because they spurred the dogs, but I have never had that problem with my dogs.

But like everyone says, the best way to determine if a breed is for you or not is to see some dogs work and decide what you think about them. If you want to PM me with your location, I can put you in a touch with a DL owner nearby. There are getting to be quite a few DLs in the midwest and western states. I saw that you mentioned Nebraska before. That is where I am originally from. If nothing else, I'll be heading back there for a late-season pheasant/quail hunt in late December and you are welcome to meet us if you want to hunt with my dogs. Or if you are free the second weekend in November, the DL-GNA (Deutsch Langhaar-Gruppe Nordamerika) will be having its annual DL-Fest near Timber Lake, South Dakota. If you really want to see a lot of DLs hunting a lot of pheasants and sharptails, that would be the place to go.

Feel free to contact me if you have any questions about the breed. I have included some photos below of some of my dogs to illustrate some of their abilities in the field/water. We have hunted them on a lot of different game in several different states (Wisconsin, Iowa, Nebraska, South Dakota, and Wyoming) and I've been pretty happy with the results.

12-week old puppy's reaction to his first planted bird:

12-week old pup in the water:

A few pointing shots:

Strong natural retrievers in any situation:

Fun sage grouse hunt in Wyoming:

Great rabbit hunt in Nebraska:

Fun pheasant hunt with friends in Iowa:

Ryman Gun Dog · Post by **Ryman Gun Dog** » Fri Aug 27, 2010 9:10 am

Traditions,
Yes Chris is a lady and Jeff is her husband, but actually I was thinking about the Gosch breeders and confused them with the Hills. Just getting old I guess.

Jager,
The real German Weimar dogs are still tested and bred for what is called the guard instinct and they can be very agressive, infact they are bred to protect the masters game and the master, actually three levels of GVP testing cryteria. There are some versatile dog that are required to be agressive even tested for it.
RGD/Dave

Ryman Gun Dog · Post by **Ryman Gun Dog** » Fri Aug 27, 2010 9:28 am

Cora's Shadow,
Your DL is just beautiful and congrats on all your NAVHDA awards, even more impressive are the hunting pictures in the Pheasant field, have you hunted many Grouse with your dog, how does he do in the Grouse woods? I have always wondered how these dogs handle Grouse, I see you do have one picture with him holding a Grouse and a bunch of Sagies, your dogs are just beautiful animals.
RGD/Dave

Post by **Greg Jennings** » Fri Aug 27, 2010 9:35 am

http://www.navhda.org/invhist.html

Ryman Gun Dog · Post by **Ryman Gun Dog** » Fri Aug 27, 2010 9:48 am

Solon,
Sence you keep beating the dead horse, Sampson did come from Brab K, he is a very agressive highly talented Grouse dog, just where did Barb get her dogs. Directly from Ned and June Sengpiel. Sampson is Sengpiel blood line and proves it each time he steps in the Grouse woods, even at a very advanced age, just keeping the converstion straight. Also Enzo was part of the real German stock that ended up with the Dutch, Zeus was a fantatic stud dog and fathered some great hunting dogs,
in fact one of my clients has a very serious female pup from him.
RGD/Dave

solon · Post by **solon** » Fri Aug 27, 2010 10:02 am

Cora,

Your DLs seem to be very nice dogs. If they weren't so big, I would love one

.

Solon

Jagerherzen · Post by **Jagerherzen** » Fri Aug 27, 2010 11:18 am

Why do you prefer the smaller size?

There is still a perpetuating misconception that sharpness on game and aggressiveness are the same thing. They are not. This has been addressed in another thread.
DLs are not Weims (and I have no opinion or substantial knowledge of them). Nor are they German Shepards, a very common household pet as well as a working dog that does have a strong protection instinct.

Ryman Gun Dog · Post by **Ryman Gun Dog** » Fri Aug 27, 2010 12:57 pm

Jager,
I have trained both and find they are both good German dogs, however the LM in this country does have some physical problems, HD is one of those problems.
I have also seen some mature LM dogs that have very little point and I do want my dogs to set birds for my Grouse gunning. The SM will even point Ducks along the high mountain streams. I like the SM size, its just a personal requirement on my part. The dogs are also very different genetically, with different hunting imprint traits. I very much like the agressive way the SM moves & retrieves, a hunting style quite different than a Setter and different also from the LM gate. The SM has a hunting style all their own, some people are drawn to it, others do not like it at all.
A good SM hunts with both a high and low head, depending on the scent cone, the LM dogs I have trained have hunted mostly ground scent, and were very good trackers and retrievers. The SM is also a great dog to take Duck hunting, a fantastic dog for both a small boat or canoe, because they want to please their masters so much. Here in Pa where the Ducks are also along the high mountain streams, the SM is fantastic for jump hunting Ducks, in those mountain streams. SM dogs are a serious Duck retriever from a small boat and from land along the mountain streams also. Please understand, I am in no way putting down the LM, in fact I like their personallity very much, a nicer dog you will seldom own, some are the biggest clowns and friendly beyond belief. There is a difference in the two dogs however.
RGD/Dave

Jagerherzen · Post by **Jagerherzen** » Fri Aug 27, 2010 1:28 pm

Perhaps some time you will have an opportunity to see some DLs work. It seems that most of what draws you to the SM you would appreciate about the DL as well. They are quite different than LMs. I am familiar with LMs but have never owned one. If I were to venture down the black and white path I would most definitely get a GM bred based on higher testing/minimum standards. But that most likely will not happen. One of the quickest ways to have too many dogs is to dabble in more than one breed.

I am passionate about the DL and have a ways to go to establish my own breeding program. To this point, I have enjoyed hunting with all the DLs I have owned.

There is size disparity within the breed. I sold a smaller boned DL (less than 50 lbs) taller (62cm) but lanky DL to a couple in WI. They love her. I think you might be impressed with their ability given the opportunity to hunt behind one.

DLs are not more prevalent towards HD than other breeds. In fact, not one of our dogs have been eliminated as a potential breeding candidate because of it thus far. Most of our dogs are HD-Frei (rated A or excellent) and the rest are HD-Fast (HD-frei with a mild imprefection rated B or good). We are rolling out a program to encourage more breeders/owners to get their dogs x-rayed because more complete data is better data. I have not taken the time to find out if there are HD issues in the LM or SM. I really don't know.

solon · Post by **solon** » Fri Aug 27, 2010 1:43 pm

Jagerherzen wrote:Why do you prefer the smaller size?

I have several reasons for liking my dogs in the 40 to 50 lb size range. One is I am a 150 lb old guy and I would like to be able to carry an injured dog out of the woods, if I should need to do it.

The main reason is I think experience has shown that dogs in the 35 to 55 lb range (mostly 40 to 50 lbs) have less orthopedic problems and they have greater endurance than larger dogs. They also have greater heat tolerance. A limitation that dogs have is they are not good at shedding metabolic heat and large body size is a negative factor for dissipating heat. Don't mean to start an argument over this, but I think if you survey the sizes of field trial pointers and setters, you will find most in this size range, with the bitches running maybe 5 lb less than the dogs. Even endurance sled dogs are not big dogs. Certainly the cover dogs are mainly these medium sizes. I am trialing a few setters and they are about the same size as my Small Munsterlanders, although they have bigger motors and more range. Here is my little skinny 40 lb derby on a grouse point in a work out this morning:

She had been down running about an hour and she is feeling some heat at that point. I don't ask the dogs to retrieve 10 lb geese, although I have seen an SM retrieve geese and even a turkey. It is surprising how much a small dog can carry when it wants to.

re HD in the SM. It does happen and it is hard to get solid numbers for the prevalence, since OFA stats are biased, mainly because often bad films are not forwarded to the organization. See:

http://www.offa.org/hipstatbreed.html

One number on the OFA web page that is perhaps a better measure is the percent of certified dogs that are rated excellent. They only have 118 SMs in their database and 11.9% were excellent. One problem is that for many years, OFA lumped the SM and LM together-duh! In contrast, the GSP is about 25% excellent. The PennHIP median for the SM is 0.41. I have seen many with PennHIP DIs in the 0.2 to 0.3 range. The SMCNA requires an OFA of good or excellent or a PennHIP of less than 0.5 for breeding approval. So by these measures, the breed is not bad, but could be better.

Solon

mcbosco · Post by **mcbosco** » Fri Aug 27, 2010 1:57 pm

A Rhodesian Ridgback seems to be able to outlast anything no matter what the heat or pace. That may be the only exception to what you say when you are looking at "faster-paced" animals.

Jagerherzen · Post by **Jagerherzen** » Fri Aug 27, 2010 1:58 pm

I am not offended at all. DLs are the fourth most tested versatile hunting dogs behind the DD, DK, and KM in that order. GMs, PPs, Vizlas, Weims .....(in no particular order) are tested in fewer numbers.
The DL is similar to the DD in that although extremely versatile it originated as a forester's dog. Big game work, fox retrieving, etc are common. DLs excel in the water and tracking and have no difficulty making 10lb + geese retrieves or jumping over obstacles such as fallen logs. They are proficient in the field as well as in the grouse woods bird hunting.

I think heat tolerance as a whole is a weakness of most versatiles. Less in the SM because of size? Maybe according to a bioscientic analysis, but a well-conditioned dog can withstand the heat better so that there may be very little (some, but very little) perceptable difference when you get down to it.

I have never had to carry a dog out, and would probably use a slider/sled anyway, much like carrying out a deer.
I do pick up my dogs and carry them a bit when whoa and steadiness training and all of my 110 lbs manages that ok.