Anyone with experience with Sm Munsterlander or Ge Longhairs

[solon]

I think heat tolerance as a whole is a weakness of most versatiles. Less in the SM because of size? Maybe according to a bioscientic analysis, but a well-conditioned dog can withstand the heat better so that there may be very little (some, but very little) perceptable difference when you get down to it.

I have never had to carry a dog out, and would probably use a slider/sled anyway, much like carrying out a deer.
I do pick up my dogs and carry them a bit when whoa and steadiness training and all of my 110 lbs manages that ok.

Conditioning is certainly important for heat tolerance. Many trialers also clip their dogs for summer training and early fall stakes. I don't find the SM particularly heat tolerant. Their coat is too heavy. My setters have rather short coats and they don't have a lot of undercoat. Other than feathering (furnishings), their coats are not much more than a pointer. Certainly not a coat for cold water work. When they are running they make heat to keep warm, but sitting around in the cold is not for them. There is a reason that the pointer is king in the south. I have read of heat tolerant dogs running in one hour horseback stakes in temperatures of over 90 degrees and not stopping for water. That would kill a lab if it could even keep up such a pace. Heat tolerance is an interesting subject. The key factor seems to be keeping the temperature in the brain at less than 105 to 106. Core body temperatures can go higher without organ failure. I think the circulation to the brain has a heat exchanger arrangement so returning venous blood picks up heat from the arterial blood in the carotid arteries. Hence brain temperatures can remain less than body temperatures. You have to be real careful in warm conditions because a driven dog may not have enough sense to quit before it gets itself into trouble. I heard of a trialer that lost a dog that ran itself into heat stroke and was found dead lying by a puddle.

110 lbs Eh! Well youth helps.

Solon

[TraditionsGSPs2010]

Jägerherzen,

Come on now Sharon... I've trained with you enough times:

"I do pick up my dogs and carry them a bit"

I'm pretty sure its the other way around and I'd argue that 110# comment too. Maybe after a rain storm with your pockets full of bumpers!

[Jagerherzen]

Ha! I never said my execution of the heel command was excellent. Or that I could even catch them that for that matter. Oh, wait that's what the command "come" if for?

[Cora's Shadow]

Ryman,

Thanks for the kind words. We do a lot of ruffed grouse and woodcock hunting with our langhaars. We live in northcentral Wisconsin so the woodcock hunting is excellent and the ruffed grouse hunting is good (although it is much better further north). I am lucky enough to hunt 3-4 days a week in Wisconsin throughout most of September and October. This year, I'll be spending most of November hunting out of state, but while I'm here, I typically grouse/woodcock hunt on my way to a my duck-hunting spots. Waterfowl hunting is extremely popular here and it pays to walk a few miles in to avoid the crowds.

As I have mentioned before, we usually end up hunting with a lot of different people so in my experience, my DLs hunt ruffed grouse very similarly to most German Shorthaired Pointers we hunt with. They hunt hard and fast through the woods and are usually within sight/hearing range. I run my dogs with beeper collars so there are often times when I don't see the dogs for a minute at a time before I hear that hawk scream and know they are on point. I have found that my DLs have been very good at adapting quickly to grouse hunting. Last fall, I had a puppy that was sticking woodcock and ruffed grouse starting at 4 months of age. I thought it was pretty impressive to see such a young dog doing so well on grouse. I have included a couple photos below of her with her first pointed/retrieved woodcock and her first pointed/retrieved ruffie (both taken when she was 4 months of age). I have also included a couple more of one of my older dog with woodcock and grouse.

4-Month Old Puppy:



Other Northwoods Shots:



Solon,
Thanks for your kind words as well. And I can understand your comments about size. When potential puppy buyers call us, almost every one of them wants to reserve a female puppy. And when I ask why, the majority of them tell me that they want a female because they like a smaller-sized dog. Most female DLs I have seen have been in the 50-60lb range. Most of the males I've seen have been in the 60-75lb range....which is definitely a substantially sized dog. The only thing I will add there is that a 75lb male with excellent conformation (good drive from the rear, good angulation, etc.) can run through the woods/field every bit as well as (if not better than) a 50lb female with poor conformation. So with our breeding program, we are trying to focus more on conformation than on actual size of the dog. Personally, I like a little size on a dog because I do expect my dogs to regularly retrieve Canada Geese (mostly the Giant subspecies), make multiple retrieves in cold, late-season duck waters, and retrieve a jackrabbit/raccoon every now and then. But every once in a while, I ask the dogs to retrieve some nice easy little stuff too

[Ryman Gun Dog]

Cora's Shadow,
Absolutely beautiful pup and I congratulate you on owning a serious Grouse dog, not many at 4 months doing this kind of job in the Grouse woods.
I know you are big into Duck and Goose hunting, the only Ducks I still want to take are Wood Ducks, along the high mountain streams where we Grouse hunt.
Can you give me an idea of the DL's personality, how is the dog around the house, do they get along well with other animals, would the DL fit into my Grouse dog kennel
with Rymans, Gordons, Small Munsters and a layed back Weimar female. What kind of repetative health testing have you been doing, HD, Eyes, ears? The more you talk about your DL dogs the more interested I am becoming, especially after the last pictures. My Ryman Setters and my Gordons are about the same size of your DL dogs, I like the medium size very much in the Grouse woods, in fact I am kind of addicted to it. I am not big on jerky little dogs, what kind of gate does the DL dogs have, are they smooth like the Ryman Setter or quick like my Gordons. I would really like to see one of your DL dogs in the Grouse woods some time, I wish you lived out his way. Is there any one in Pa that has your dogs?
RGD/Dave

[Cora's Shadow]

Like any breed, DL temperaments can vary from individual to individual...but the average DL is calm and laid-back around the house. We have had a few different puppy buyers tell us that they were worried that our dogs wouldn't have enough go in the field because they were so mellow in the house. But then they were shocked at how different the dogs acted in the field. Most DLs definitely have that switch to go from coach potato in the house to passionate hunter in the field. Since I've shared some photos of the field part already, below are some photos of the couch potato part.



Waiting patiently to be let into the house:


Most get along very well with other dogs and people of all ages. I have included a photo below of a puppy from our first litter living in her new home with all of her younger owners. As far as other animals, you might be able to raise a DL puppy around cats and teach them that cats are not game animals...but I don't recommend that. My DLs get to see horses about once a year and they have always been great with the horses. The rigorous testing standards result in dogs with very stable temperaments.


As far as health clearances, DLs cannot be certified for breeding until they have had their hips x-rayed and evaluated by a vet in Germany. DLs must be rated as A, B, or C in order to be cleared for breeding. Dogs with C hips can only be bred to dogs with A hips. As of right now, that is the only health certification required for breeding, although I believe that elbow x-rays will be a requirement very shortly. It was discussed at length at the annual meeting in Germany this past year.

I have only hunted with 2 Ryman-type setters and my dogs hunted very differently from those. I have not yet had the opportunity to hunt with a field-bred Gordon so I can't comment as to similarities or differences there. The gate of a DL does vary quite a bit from dog to dog. I have seen some that are very light-footed and seem to glide effortlessly through the woods. But for the most part, the Germans value a strongly-built dog so you are more likely to see dogs with substantial bone (more powerful). I like to think of my oldest DL as a fast and very powerful dog. She charges through the woods with reckless abandon. I often see her somersault after tripping over something, and then she'll jump right up and continue sprinting. She is not what I would call graceful as she crashes through the cover My 10-month old is a little more athletic. She is not quite as strong, but is a little more agile when running through the woods. For the most part, they only have one speed...and that is as quick as their conditioning will allow them. Below are a few photos of my dogs searching in the field.





The Treasurer of the DL-GNA lives in Pennsylvania and I'm sure he'd be happy to introduce you to his DL and share his thoughts on the breed. You can find his contact information on the DL-GNA website at http://www.dl-gna.org/Contact_GNA.htm.

If you are really interested in getting a DL, I would highly recommend that you attend a HZP (fall breed test) next month. The HZP is the second of two hunting tests required for breeding certification and DLs usually run it when they are 18-23 months of age. Watching the test should give you a good idea of the minimum that we expect from our dogs. It looks like there is a HZP near York Springs, PA on September 10-12th. There are also a couple HZPs in Ohio. Let me know if you are interested in attending and I can put you in touch with those test coordinators for more details.

[Ryman Gun Dog]

Cora's Shadow,
Thanks so much for the info and the pictures are beautiful, I am meeting your Treasurer on Thursday to see his dog, the more I hear about these dogs the more I am impressed with the breeding and testing. Your treaurer does a lot of Pheasant hunting, I am going to invite him up to our Potter/Tioga training facility this fall, to see his
boy work in the Grouse woods. Thanks again for being so nice, this is why I now participatge on a few of these forum, still some real nice people participating.
Never thought I would live long enough to see these dogs in the USA.
RGD/Dave

[Jagerherzen]

Bruce's dog Oskar is a nice dog. Oskar is a 1/2 brother (same father) to Kaylee shown on Cora's post and website.
Enjoy your visit. I'm sure it will be well worth your time.

[Ryman Gun Dog]

Jagerherzen,
I did not mean to deal you out of the conversation in any way, I wanted to learn more about the DL and directed my questions directly at Cortney because of her fantastic pictures, if you people are ever out this way you are very welcome to stop at our mountain home & kennel. We train our dogs on wild Grouse and have a ball doing it. It sure looks like the DL might fit into our Grouse Dog Training Kennel, the conversation with Bruce was very impressive, his Oskar sounds like a real good
dog.
RGD/Dave

[Jagerherzen]

No offense taken. Earlier I thought you had me confused with an LM owner, but I think that's cleared up. I gave Cortney a heads up since she was busy so she could add her dollars worth. The more people promoting the DL the better as far as I'm concerned. To date, I have only sold started and finished dogs - no pups and enjoy directing people to other club members. We're all in this together.

Cortney and I were talking and I also 100% agree that Cortney's pictures give a fantastic representation. I'm going to work on taking more pics myself this season, something I've didn't do as much as I should have in the past with my other dogs. I started my hunting hobby a mere 5 years ago in MO and certainly don't yet the extensive experience on grouse and woodcock (more hunting on quail down south) as she and others like yourself do.

Thanks for the invite. Hope we can meet some time!

[demi]

Courtney,

It is always fun to see pictures of your GLs and read your posts. Your pup is beautiful!! Dennis M worked hard and nearly convinced me to switch to the "brown side", but I had already made up my mind for our next pup, and have no regrets staying with the LM. At one time the choice was between the SM and the LM, but I wish we had known about the GL at that time.

Just curious, on average how many litters of GL's are whelped in North America each year?

[Cora's Shadow]

Hey Lori,

Always good to hear from you. I can't remember who I was talking to a while back but they said that you got a new pup and were very happy with him/her.

I'm not sure how many German Longhairs are whelped in a year. I'm not involved with the GLPCNA anymore. They petitioned for AKC recognition (and got placed in the Foundation Stock Service in May) but haven't updated their website in a long time so I'm not sure what is going on with them.

I know of 6 Deutsch Langhaar bitches that will probably be bred in the next 6 months or so. They just aren't all posted on the DL-GNA website (http://www.dl-gna.org) because most of us haven't made a final decision on a stud dog yet. Its hard to narrow it down when you have your pick of most of the stud dogs in Germany

[demi]

Thanks, Courtney. My apologizes for saying GL, rather than Deutsch Langhaar. I didn't know that the GLPCNA had applied for AKC recognition. Not good, IMO.

Yes, we do have a new female Snowy Oaks pup, Meeka, whelped on 5/15. I am really looking forward to working and hunting with her. She and Desi will make a great team.

She is showing lots of good stuff, already pointing, retrieving, and loves, loves, the water. Too much I think. She stands outside in the yard when the sprinklers are running or even a thunderstorm. :roll:

First Day Home at 8 weeks

BG.jpg

BG2.jpg