range in hunting dogs

SCKWEST
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range in hunting dogs

Post by SCKWEST » Sun Sep 05, 2010 5:38 pm

Hello all, I would like to pose a question to the members of the board. What kind of range do you like to see out of your hunting dogs? That question is for"hunting dogs" not field trial dogs. How do you feel about gps and tracking collars, should they be a necassary tool for your hunting dog? Last part of the question do you think that your hunting dog should be out of site of the handler, same as a field trial dog? I am under the impression that most bird hunters enjoy watching their dogs work and that they should make good casts, but not go until they are stopped by a bird. sckwest

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Re: range in hunting dogs

Post by AzDoggin » Sun Sep 05, 2010 5:59 pm

viewtopic.php?f=89&t=24361&hilit=range is a 6-page thread on this topic from a few weeks ago. You may get a few nibbles, but this topic has been flogged a few times in the recent past.

(*****EDIT***** - 14 pages and counting. Have to say that "range in a hunting dog" turns out to be the most hotly debated topic on GDF :D )
Last edited by AzDoggin on Mon Sep 13, 2010 7:07 am, edited 8 times in total.

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Re: range in hunting dogs

Post by birddogger » Sun Sep 05, 2010 6:43 pm

I will nibble Scott. I want my dogs' range to depend on the type of cover we are hunting. When hunting big flat areas where the cover is spread out, I want the dogs to stretch out and find the birds, where ever that takes them. That is there job, to find the birds. On the other hand, if I am hunting where the cover is thick, they need to work slower and be thorough. Either way, they are going to be out of sight a lot of the time. I like watching them work, but I like even better, finding them locked up on birds. As far as a GPS goes, I don't own one, but I think it would be a great asset for keeping track of the dogs and for peace of mind.

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Re: range in hunting dogs

Post by tn red » Sun Sep 05, 2010 7:08 pm

I'll bite.To me it depends on how broke the dog is,i dont have to see him if i trust him.

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Re: range in hunting dogs

Post by Meller » Sun Sep 05, 2010 7:08 pm

Ditto! What Charlie said. :D

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Re: range in hunting dogs

Post by Greg Jennings » Sun Sep 05, 2010 7:21 pm

A gps/tracking collar is a big safety asset. Dog runs a deer or similar, you can find them.

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Re: range in hunting dogs

Post by Hotpepper » Sun Sep 05, 2010 7:25 pm

It is not good to have to keep answering the question of the difference in field trial dogs and my hunting dogs. My hunting dogs have won 20 one hour championships, runner up national champion, finished field championshps and amateur field championships and won lots of weeked trials and puppy derby stakes.

I just take them bird hunting, use a beeper collar, talk to them and they find birds, point them and wait for me to get there, I kill them for me and they get to retrieve them, to me.

Not trying to be a s**rtie just explaining the facts. The dogs that I have owned, bred, ran and hunted have great noses, stamina, and intelligence and love me in a genuine way.

Come to my house and buy your hunting dog and you will have a great hunting dog.

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Re: range in hunting dogs

Post by Ryman Gun Dog » Mon Sep 06, 2010 6:39 am

Sckwest,
As was related a similar thread was participated in a while back, so I will try to answer your question in a little different way. Range in reality is part of a dogs genetic imprint. Dogs are either bred to independently hunt or they are bred to hunt as a companion foot hunting dog. The owner must choose which dog, with its differing genetic imprint fits into his requirements.
While it is true that FT type dogs can be hunted, usually with the use of an e-collar or tracking device of some kind, a true companion foot hunting dog, has been bred for hundreds of years to work with his master, seldom really needing an e-collar or tracking device, the dog no matter how big it runs has the genetic imprint to check in with his master, and to work birds or game for his masters gunning. The difference you are really questioning has to due with genetics, not range. Most owners fail to understand this difference and because so many FT breeders and owners keep saying they can also hunt with their dogs, the real difference between the dogs is seldom discussed. The genetic imprint in say a Duetch Langhaar (German Long hair Pointer) and an English Pointer are vastly different, one animal has been bred to genetically hunt for the foot hunting master, the other bred to independently hunt with the master from horse back, or to play FT games when required. Some FT type dogs are even very biddable, dogs like the Miller pointers are hunted all the time in the Grouse and produce big time. But to say the Miller pointer is genetically the same kind of hunting animal as the Ryman Setter is to miss the genetic difference in these two great animals. Having owned and trained both kinds of animals, I try to explain the difference in
these animals, there is a big genetic difference in dogs and the work they are genetically bred for. An owner must understand the difference and make an educated choice
as to what animal, he needs in his home or kennel. I leave you with this thought, Sam Light was a breeder/trainer of some of the best FT type English Setters who ever lived, when he Grouse hunted he hunted with one of George Rymans Pa Grouse dogs. Here was a man who understood the difference in English Setter genetic imprint, and
used them both to their best advantage.

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Re: range in hunting dogs

Post by Greg Jennings » Mon Sep 06, 2010 6:45 am

<Hack, hack, cough, cough, blowing morning coffee out my nose> Dave, dude, you really need to give "fair disclosure" in your posts that not a lot of people agree with what you're presenting as though it were established fact.

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Re: range in hunting dogs

Post by larue » Mon Sep 06, 2010 7:08 am

Range is not just as simple as how far away a dog is.
When I have ruffed grouse hunted,in area's that have seen pressure,my dogs will get off the path's and out of sight from me,and I can hear them by the bells they are wearing.I would guess 80 to 100 yards in heavy cover.
This ability to hunt for me,while not in my sight allows them to get to and find birds that dogs who need to always be in sight,just do not find.
The same dogs out on the praire's range out to 1/2 or more consistantly.
My point being,it is not range we should talk about,but a dogs ability to hunt with us,the country will determine the range.

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Re: range in hunting dogs

Post by tommyboy72 » Mon Sep 06, 2010 7:36 am

Someone might want to disclose the fact too that when you have a dog that ranges out to a 1/2 mile he misses the birds that are in close to you no matter how good his nose is. I usually hunt with my big running Miller pointer and my old Setter, who by the way is not a Ryman Setter but a Ragged Hill Nip dog that finds birds just fine.

Range is not only a result of training but a result of breeding, the individual breed as well as the individual dog itself. I have 2 pups now out of the same litter of NSTRA dogs. The male pup will run really big with my Miller female and check back in only when given a whistle to do so or a light stimulation with the collar and his sister will run big as well but checks back in constantly even when given free rein to run as big as she likes. Range just depends on the dog itself and how big you are willing to let them run without reining them in mixed in with the breed of dog and the specific bloodlines as well.

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Re: range in hunting dogs

Post by AzDoggin » Mon Sep 06, 2010 8:02 am

tommyboy72 wrote:Someone might want to disclose the fact too that when you have a dog that ranges out to a 1/2 mile he misses the birds that are in close to you no matter how good his nose is.
That's the point I've been trying to get my brain wrapped around. If a scent cone of a bird is, what, 20-50 yards, and your dog is looping out to 800 with obvious cover inbetween, seems to me you watching a track meet. Nothing wrong with that, but how could a dog possibly root out every bird if he is that far out front?

The other factor to deal with is whether the birds will hold until you get there, even if the dog is "honest" and holds point while the hunter stumbles a half mile to catch up.

All that said, it appears that the consensus of the experts is that range in a dog is a function of trainability/biddability (checking in), and the cover being hunted. I would guess that the athleticism of the dog, and how much effort it takes to cruise hundreds of yards, could also contribute. A leggy pointer could cover that ground an awful lot easier than a shorter legged dog.
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Re: range in hunting dogs

Post by tommyboy72 » Mon Sep 06, 2010 8:12 am

My avatar dog is a smaller dog but she is super fast and really snappy. She covers a lot more ground than some of the leggier dogs I have owned and hunted with. I guess another thing that should be figured in is the individual hunting style of the dog. Some dogs go flat out, full speed the whole time they are hunting and some dogs are what I call a "loper" or more of a 3/4 speed jogging type dog. I prefer a full tilt dog because you know they are putting out hard the whole time they are huting and while they may require a bit more working and reining in at the beginning of the day by midday they are usually working just like you want them to and by days end they are still going like an energizer bunny while some of dogs are just flat wore out. JMO.

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Re: range in hunting dogs

Post by AzDoggin » Mon Sep 06, 2010 8:49 am

tommyboy72 wrote:My avatar dog is a smaller dog but she is super fast and really snappy. She covers a lot more ground than some of the leggier dogs I have owned and hunted with. I guess another thing that should be figured in is the individual hunting style of the dog. Some dogs go flat out, full speed the whole time they are hunting and some dogs are what I call a "loper" or more of a 3/4 speed jogging type dog. I prefer a full tilt dog because you know they are putting out hard the whole time they are huting and while they may require a bit more working and reining in at the beginning of the day by midday they are usually working just like you want them to and by days end they are still going like an energizer bunny while some of dogs are just flat wore out. JMO.

Good points. I had a Britt female that was just a little bug of a dog about 30 lbs - but she was that "energizer bunny" that was still going at the end of the day.

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Re: range in hunting dogs

Post by Neil » Mon Sep 06, 2010 9:11 am

Why not do it again? There seem to be a lot of slow learners here.

If I am hunting where I need to keep a dog in sight, I will hunt a flusher, not a pointing dog. It is generally accepted that the purpose of a pointing dog is to find wild birds the hunter is unlikely to walk by on his own.

No dog will find every bird in a given area, on average a good pair of dogs will find less than half of the available birds. Good dogs hunt productive cover, objectives are ALWAYS there. A dog that quarters staying in sight, is wasting at least half of his time and energy.

The point of e-collars and tracking collars have little to do with range, and nothing with this debate.

Like many, I have always hunted my field trial dogs, or better said, I field trial my hunting dogs.

I read the other side of this argument, just don't get it; but if you are hunting wild birds, not hunting a put and take, shooting preserve with a pointing dog, you need one that will get out of visual contact from time to time.

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Re: range in hunting dogs

Post by birdogg42 » Mon Sep 06, 2010 9:24 am

Neil wrote:Why not do it again? There seem to be a lot of slow learners here.

If I am hunting where I need to keep a dog in sight, I will hunt a flusher, not a pointing dog. It is generally accepted that the purpose of a pointing dog is to find wild birds the hunter is unlikely to walk by on his own.

No dog will find every bird in a given area, on average a good pair of dogs will find less than half of the available birds. Good dogs hunt productive cover, objectives are ALWAYS there. A dog that quarters staying in sight, is wasting at least half of his time and energy.

The point of e-collars and tracking collars have little to do with range, and nothing with this debate.

Like many, I have always hunted my field trial dogs, or better said, I field trial my hunting dogs.

I read the other side of this argument, just don't get it; but if you are hunting wild birds, not hunting a put and take, shooting preserve with a pointing dog, you need one that will get out of visual contact from time to time.

Neil
I agree with you Neil. Except for the flushing dog part. I just dont have any desire to follow a flusher. :lol: But well said!

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Re: range in hunting dogs

Post by ymepointer » Mon Sep 06, 2010 9:47 am

Like Neil, I trial my hunting dogs, or at least I did when I was younger and had less children :lol: The good ones will run to the front and hold birds till you find them. My good ones have all adapted to the cover but still are out of sight at least 1/4-1/2 off the time I would say but they Check back regularly and I have killed many many birds over my current bitch who is 6. She hunts the front and if I don't find her on point I see her cross to the front, stop and scan back for me, then change her direction if need be to stay in front. I never have to say anything except to bring her back in.

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Re: range in hunting dogs

Post by BigShooter » Mon Sep 06, 2010 10:22 am

This subject can be debated forever. It is possible we could agree on a few things. A good pointer to hunt with:

1. is honest on it's birds, standing well off & by it's actions hold the birds as well as possible until the hunter arrives,
2. goes with the hunter whether very close or a ways off, i.e. keeps track of where the hunter is, generally follows the hunter's line of travel & does not run off
3. has a good nose and finds birds
4. conserves energy, not wasting a lot of energy covering non-bird producing ground, maintains a reasonable pace & doesn't poop out half way through the hunting day
5. comes when called
6. tracks & retrieves wounded & dead birds
7. doesn't fart in a vehicle when human passengers are present :lol:

If a dog doesn't do the minimum it's going to be a relative liability for the hunter.

Ignore the word genetic unless the actual gene action has been proven beyond a reasonable doubt by scientific research. Understand everyone has OPINIONS about what genes are present at birth that dictate behaviors not learned from the dam, the owner, other dogs or the environment. Also understand every pup from a litter will carry different traits than its litter-mates, so they are not identical genetic carbon copies of each other.
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Re: range in hunting dogs

Post by Ditch__Parrot » Mon Sep 06, 2010 10:39 am

What kind of range do you like to see out of your hunting dogs?
I want my dogs to adjust their range to where we are hunting. I've had only limited success with this. Sadie my closer working dog won't open up nearly as nicely as Daisy will tighten up. Forced to put a number down. 50-800 yards and everything inbetween.
How do you feel about gps and tracking collars, should they be a necassary tool for your hunting dog?
Necassary, no not at all. Very handy piece of mind that so far I'm just too much of a cheapskate to purchase. I do wish I had one, you just never know what will happen in the field.
do you think that your hunting dog should be out of site of the handler, same as a field trial dog?
Don't know, never been to a field trial. I do expect my dogs to be out of site at times.
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Re: range in hunting dogs

Post by dan v » Mon Sep 06, 2010 10:41 am

Greg Jennings wrote:<Hack, hack, cough, cough, blowing morning coffee out my nose> Dave, dude, you really need to give "fair disclosure" in your posts that not a lot of people agree with what you're presenting as though it were established fact.
You're just plain nicer than I was planning on being.
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Re: range in hunting dogs

Post by Ryman Gun Dog » Mon Sep 06, 2010 12:47 pm

Gentlemen,
As usual instead of talking genetics we talk around it, now you are even being told to disreguard it all together, however when you take the e-callors off the dog while Grouse hunting, its easy to witness the difference in the animals. Any time you want to witness this for yourself, just take your dog to the Grouse woods and hunt the dog without the e-collar, infact we invite you to come to Potter County and Grouse hunt with us. Remember however we Grouse hunt here, not look for other hunters dogs. Its not just the training, its the genetics. You either fight the genetics or train with it, there is no in between. You can hack cough spit on the ground,
make snide remarks, but it does not change the genetics of the animal one bit. When you have a high quality tested breeding program, genetics varies but very little.
When you breed for one exceptional dog, genetics varies all over the place, two very different kinds of breeding programs with very different results. Genetics does matter greatly.

RGD/Dave
Last edited by Ryman Gun Dog on Mon Sep 06, 2010 1:45 pm, edited 4 times in total.

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Re: range in hunting dogs

Post by Hotpepper » Mon Sep 06, 2010 1:14 pm

Is it wrong to tell a fella he is wrong, not when he is wrong for telling me what I like and need to hunt with.

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Re: range in hunting dogs

Post by Birddogz » Mon Sep 06, 2010 1:22 pm

Neil,

Explain to me the objectives in a standing milo field. How about a 50 acre cattail slough. A homogeneous C.R.P. field. Better yet, explain to me how a dog whose head is say 30 inches from the ground can see objectives in the aforementioned cover. Can't happen. It isn't possible. A HUNTING dogs job is to produce birds for the game bag. If that weren't the case they wouldn't be taken hunting. So in essence, what ever range produces the best results is the best range.

For pheasants in the late season in the Dakotas, your dog better not be much more than 100 yards in front. If a guy were to bring a dog that ran out to 800 yards in December in SD/ND he would literally be laughed out of the county by nice folks and probably be beat up by the mean ones. Any dog worth a hoot isn't going to be running by all those birds to get to 800 yards.

Some guys have dogs that will hunt huge in the open and close when they are hunting grouse/phez. Those are great dogs. In my 30 years of hunting experience most dogs that hunt really big are very hard to bring in. They like to feel the wind in their ears. Those dogs are fine on bobwhites, but far from an ideal pheasant dog. Lots and lots of training.

Ryman, made the point about European dogs/foot dogs hunting for the hunter, and not independently. I actually have found this to be true. My FT bred Britts were far harder to reel in. They wanted to push the envelope always. After about 4 years of electricity they started to get it. When I hunt with my DD, I literally never have to make a sound to her. She is with me always at great range. I've also seen this with PPs and French Britts. However, I have also seen dogs out of FT breeding that hunt that way, only it is a role of the dice. You may get a real independent dog that runs big, or you may get one that hunts with you. If a guy is hunting Chukar, a big running independent dog may be the ticket. A guy needs to think about what he will be hunting.
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Re: range in hunting dogs

Post by Birddogz » Mon Sep 06, 2010 1:25 pm

One question for you FT guys. How many of you hunt late season pheasants in the Dakotas? I'm just curious as to what kind of birds you hunt with your FT dogs, and where.
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Re: range in hunting dogs

Post by Ryman Gun Dog » Mon Sep 06, 2010 1:28 pm

Hotpepper,
You are missing the point, the point is the prospective owner has a choice as to many different kinds of animals to hunt with or play games with. Its each individual hunters choice which animal fits his requirements best. But please do not tell everyone that one certain kind of animal meets every hunters requirement, you may think your GSP is a great Grouse dog but another man may have very differrent requirements.
RGD/Dave

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Re: range in hunting dogs

Post by AzDoggin » Mon Sep 06, 2010 1:30 pm

Neil wrote:No dog will find every bird in a given area, on average a good pair of dogs will find less than half of the available birds. Good dogs hunt productive cover
OK, so I guess it's a matter of preference then which birds you want to take a chance on the dog missing. While I love watching a dog run as much as the next guy, I'd prefer to have him working thoroughly enough in front that he doesn't miss as many birds.

Don't know whether I'm the "slow learner" you were referencing, but I do know the kind of hunting I like to do (wild birds only) and I do know the style I enjoy in a dog.

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Re: range in hunting dogs

Post by Ryman Gun Dog » Mon Sep 06, 2010 1:44 pm

Gentlemen,
Birddogz is making a big point here which many people miss, range is not important if the gun dog has the proper companion hunting genetic imprint.
Maybe I should have answered the question in this manner.
RGD/Dave

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Re: range in hunting dogs

Post by quailrunner » Mon Sep 06, 2010 2:21 pm

I guess If the birds around here left a 25-50 YARD scent cone, then a field trial bred dog would be great. Heck, my wife's King Charles Cavalier Spaniel (Pug nose and all) could find birds with those kinds of scent cones.
I look at it like this: The better hunter YOU are, the closer you like your dogs to work.

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Re: range in hunting dogs

Post by BigShooter » Mon Sep 06, 2010 2:31 pm

Ryman Gun Dog wrote:Gentlemen,
range is not important if the gun dog has the proper companion hunting genetic imprint. RGD/Dave
Dave I have trouble with the terms you use. It seems apparent your true understanding of the field of genetics is perhaps a bit limited.

Definitions:

Companion - one that accompanies another

Hunting - pursuit of game

genetic imprint - For the vast majority of autosomal genes, expression occurs from both alleles simultaneously. In mammals however, a small proportion (<1%) of genes are imprinted, meaning that gene expression occurs from only one allele.

Dave,

One of the few ways to demonstrate behavior that is exclusively tied to an inherited genome would be to eliminate socialization & environmental influences. Take a pup away from the dam at birth, deprive the pup of any interaction with humans or dogs, do no training, take the dog out to the woods for the first time & show us this animal that accompanies you while pursuing game in a proper manner for the hunter.
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Re: range in hunting dogs

Post by BigShooter » Mon Sep 06, 2010 2:41 pm

BD,

Yes, you sound like you are thirty years old. Exactly how many seasons have you hunted pheasants several days in Dec. & early January in North Dakota, one?

While I understand your tendancy to twist conversations please quote where Ryman used the words "European dogs"
Last edited by BigShooter on Mon Sep 06, 2010 2:52 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: range in hunting dogs

Post by BigShooter » Mon Sep 06, 2010 2:47 pm

Guys,

Having a close dog without good manners or one that doesn't point the pheasants buried in the snow in late season but instead busts them out for you is no different than a flusher. Range means nothing without a lot of other positive attributes in a hunting dog.

Go back to my first post & pick it to shreds.
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Re: range in hunting dogs

Post by Ruffshooter » Mon Sep 06, 2010 2:56 pm

I appreciate your love of good companion grouse dogs, but you generalize too much. Its like if a dog is bred of field trial stock you think that dog will not be a good companion. That is bull. Are there some FT dogs like that sure, but there are some hunting dogs like that too. Maybe I am not catching on but this is the impression I am left with each time you get into these type discussions. Perhaps I am wrong. :oops:

[quote="Ryman Gun Dog"]Gentlemen,
however when you take the e-callors off the dog while Grouse hunting, its easy to witness the difference in the animals.
I run smaller foot trials and tests. NSTRA AKC NAVHDA hope to do Cover dog some day.
I hunt my dogs on Ruffs, woodcock and ducks. They do real well, they live in house.I do not use ecollars when hunting and have not on the last four dogs.
I have been to Kansas for Pheasants and Quail, They covered a lot of gound (sometimes 3 or 400 yards(the GSP and one Brit) (two of the 3 brits were shorter) and at other times under 100 depended on birds and cover. They figured out the pheasants in just a few days.
Dave Do you think that all the FT folks on here do not hunt their dogs?
Do you think Cover Dog trial and Wild Ruff trial dogs are not good companions?
Why do you think that a FT dog can not be a good companion?
Why do you think that a FT dog can not adjust its range or use of terrain and learn grouse?
Why do you think that FT breeders are not breeding cooperative and biddable decent temprament dogs?
Why do you think that a FT breeder does not have a consistent breeding program. (Some don't) But I bet most do.
Dave: (Genetics does matter greatly.) Yeah it does and I bet near everyone on hear, that breeds takes into account the genetics of their chosen breedings and the direction that will take them.

To grouse hunt you need an honest dog and one that can relocate or cut them off so you have time to get there. Close working Grouse dogs are nothing extrodinary, simply because the work is only for a short time period. Let me preface, a grouse dog finding grouse is always great.

Really that is the same for most types of birds and hunting dogs.
There are different types of dogs for different people and different types of hunting. Choose what you want that fits..

.
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Re: range in hunting dogs

Post by Birddogz » Mon Sep 06, 2010 2:58 pm

The imprinting that seems to apply here is a developmental one. Not really what is defined as genetic imprinting, but rather the psychological/developmental definition. When baby geese follow their parents every where that is because they have imprinted on them. I think that my DD imprinted on me much more than my Britts did. I could let her outside, and she sticks around. My Britts would be GONE!!!! My DD seems to think I am the greatest thing on Earth. My Britts are great dogs, but don't seem to look up to me as much. They love me, but don't necessarily think I have all the answers.LOL When I hunt with them they want me to go their way. This is a battle that I have waged with them for some time. Now, sometimes it is alright to just follow your dog, but there are other times that it just isn't prudent. That is where hunting with my DD is so nice, she never tries to run off in "her" direction, she is there to hunt for ME, and me only. The funny thing is that she finds every bit as many birds as the other dogs do, only my blood pressure stays in a safe level. :D
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Re: range in hunting dogs

Post by BigShooter » Mon Sep 06, 2010 3:09 pm

Ruffshooter wrote:(Genetics does matter greatly.)
No one said it doesn't matter. However the term is constantly manipulated by posters to add authority to whatever point they are trying to make. Unless all socialization & environmental affects have been eliminated one cannot claim any certain behavioral attribute is due solely to a dog's genome.

I'm especially sick of the labels posters attempt to use: all fields dogs are __________, all Brits are _________, all american bred dogs are __________, all european dogs are ___________, All DDs are ___________, all pointers are _________, all short ranging is good ________, my dog is a (insert your type) and acts like _____, therefore all (insert your type) are exactly the same, my dog's better than your dog, blah, blah, blah. Makes me want to puke!!!!! :evil:
Last edited by BigShooter on Mon Sep 06, 2010 3:23 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: range in hunting dogs

Post by Birddogz » Mon Sep 06, 2010 3:10 pm

BigShooter wrote:BD,

Yes, you sound like you are thirty years old. Exactly how many seasons have you hunted pheasants several days in Dec. & early January in North Dakota, one?

While I understand your tendancy to twist conversations please quote where Ryman used the words "European dogs"
You need to read a little better. I have hunted for 30 years. I have hunted South Dakota every year since 1990. I always hunt there in the late season. I hunt birds 50-70 days a year. Most of that time is spent on Phez. Now, where on Earth do you come up with dogs with no manners? I would never want one that didn't have manners. You bring a dog out in late season that ranges big and I can assure you, you will not kill as many birds as a person with a closer working dog. That has been my observation in 30 years in the field. The fact is, no phez hunter that was worth a darn has ever started a conversation off like ....."See, what you really need for late season birds is a real big running hard charging dog. One that gets out to 800 yards! That is the ticket."....No, you need a very cooperative dog that retrieves well, hunts dead well, and learns to be thorough and patient.

Also, Ryman in a previous thread had described French Brits and European dogs as being great foot dogs. I was not trying to put words in his mouth.
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Re: range in hunting dogs

Post by BigShooter » Mon Sep 06, 2010 3:42 pm

You never answered the first question and therefore have established no credibility as any kind of an authority on late season hunting in ND, so stick with NE & SD. I just figured since you were such a great authority you started hunting by riding around in a vehicle when you were a baby. I've noticed some folks are prone to exaggeration. Apparently you know all pheasant hunters that are worth a darn. 800 yards .... that's a whopper too. We're still waiting to hear about all of your personal experience with field trials and hunting dogs used in field trials.

You can take anything out of context. Range means nothing without good manners & lots of other positive attributes.

BD wrote: Also, Ryman in a previous thread had described French Brits and European dogs as being great foot dogs. I was not trying to put words in his mouth.

Than just use your own words, keep making new friends & try to ram that DDs & other european dogs are the only good dogs out there crap down everyone's throats one more time. We're all just lovin' it like pigs eatin' slop.
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Re: range in hunting dogs

Post by Birddogz » Mon Sep 06, 2010 3:58 pm

BigShooter wrote:You never answered the first question and therefore have established no credibility as any kind of an authority on late season hunting in ND, so stick with NE & SD. I just figured since you were such a great authority you started hunting by riding around in a vehicle when you were a baby. I've noticed some folks are prone to exaggeration. Apparently you know all pheasant hunters that are worth a darn. 800 yards .... that's a whopper too.

You can take anything out of context. Range means nothing without good manners & lots of other positive attributes.
I have hunted ND in late season twice. I see very little difference in ND and SD late season hunters. My question to you is, what exactly do you disagree with me on? You seem to enjoy taking shots with absolutely no discussion. Do you like big running, independent dogs for late season pheasants? I don't. If you do, than we disagree. I like a dog that is very cooperative, patient, hunts dead well, and retrieves to hand. If you don't then we disagree. I'm not seeing where we are having a discussion. It seems you enjoy making snide comments at my expense. Perhaps it is you who is 30.
I don't understand your apparent anger. Maybe you can explain to me what you like in a late season phez dog's range. That would be constructive and coherent.
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Re: range in hunting dogs

Post by BigShooter » Mon Sep 06, 2010 4:09 pm

BD,

Range means nothing out of the context of a hunt & without a lot of other attributes in the dog. Go back & read my first post. If there is something you don't understand or don't agree with I'll try to respond when I get back to the Forum.
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Re: range in hunting dogs

Post by AzDoggin » Mon Sep 06, 2010 4:20 pm

Boys, I WISH I was 30. :P

Different strokes, that's what makes hunting with dogs so cool. There's no right or wrong answer, people are successful using different styles of hunting with a dog in different covers for different quarry.

A cooperative, smart, well bred and trained hunting dog is a desireable thing. With those traits a hunter can mold the dog to match his needs, including the "range" within which the dog works.

Heck, I was reading a pretty well-reasoned argument the other day from a guy who used labs on open country chukars in Oregon. The guy reasoned that the country was too open and the birds too spooky to hold a point anyway, so why bother with a pointer? For him, it worked, and judging from some of his photographs, he was putting meat in his bag, that's for sure.

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Re: range in hunting dogs

Post by Ruffshooter » Mon Sep 06, 2010 4:30 pm

Mark, that was Daves Quote not mine and you state exactly what I did eluded to but more respectfully. :roll: And where did I put lables on anything or of the type? :?

The proper writing of the Phrase should be "Genetics do Matter". :wink:
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Re: range in hunting dogs

Post by Birddogz » Mon Sep 06, 2010 4:33 pm

BigShooter wrote:BD,

Range means nothing out of the context of a hunt & without a lot of other attributes in the dog. Go back & read my first post. If there is something you don't understand or don't agree with I'll try to respond when I get back to the Forum.
I have never said that range was the end all, be all. I agree a dog has to have more. To me, cooperation is the key. Obviously a dog needs to hold point, hunt hard, retrieve well, hunt dead well, etc. The range depends on the quarry.
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Re: range in hunting dogs

Post by Birddogz » Mon Sep 06, 2010 4:39 pm

BigShooter wrote:You never answered the first question and therefore have established no credibility as any kind of an authority on late season hunting in ND, so stick with NE & SD. I just figured since you were such a great authority you started hunting by riding around in a vehicle when you were a baby. I've noticed some folks are prone to exaggeration. Apparently you know all pheasant hunters that are worth a darn. 800 yards .... that's a whopper too. We're still waiting to hear about all of your personal experience with field trials and hunting dogs used in field trials.

You can take anything out of context. Range means nothing without good manners & lots of other positive attributes.

BD wrote: Also, Ryman in a previous thread had described French Brits and European dogs as being great foot dogs. I was not trying to put words in his mouth.

Than just use your own words, keep making new friends & try to ram that DDs & other european dogs are the only good dogs out there crap down everyone's throats one more time. We're all just lovin' it like pigs eatin' slop.
Where on here did I ever say that European dogs were the only good dogs? I am merely pointing out what I have seen. The differences in the dogs. I will bet you a nickel that my DD will stay in the yard, try that with a FT EP. Not saying that a pointer is a bad dog, just that they are very different. I don't think that noticing differences in breeds is saying that DDs are better than any dog. You are simply creating or interpreting problems.
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Re: range in hunting dogs

Post by BigShooter » Mon Sep 06, 2010 4:45 pm

Ruffshooter wrote: And where did I put lables on anything or of the type? :?

The proper writing of the Phrase should be "Genetics do Matter". :wink:
The labels comment had nothing to do with you.

It's amazing what Ross can get out of his pointers, despite the claims that have been made that pointers no longer have the "genetics" to do what his dogs can do.
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Re: range in hunting dogs

Post by dan v » Mon Sep 06, 2010 4:47 pm

Here what people seem to be missing IMHO.

Hunting, as we know it today, is a game...fact.

If somebody chooses to go out with their companion hunter and play their "game" that way....who am I to argue? But then again, if I choose to head out with a hot bred FT dog that fills the country up and get only the stupid birds pointed. That's the way I what to play the "game".....is that wrong?

People take differing things away from their time afield.
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Re: range in hunting dogs

Post by tn red » Mon Sep 06, 2010 4:50 pm

People take differing things away from their time afield.

+1

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Re: range in hunting dogs

Post by birddogger » Mon Sep 06, 2010 4:56 pm

Wyndancer wrote:
Greg Jennings wrote:<Hack, hack, cough, cough, blowing morning coffee out my nose> Dave, dude, you really need to give "fair disclosure" in your posts that not a lot of people agree with what you're presenting as though it were established fact.
You're just plain nicer than I was planning on being.
I wanted to comment on this also and I don't mean any offense or disrespect, but Dave there are other game birds besides grouse. I have never had the pleasure of hunting grouse, but it sounds to me like it may take a dog that works a little different than on some other birds.

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Re: range in hunting dogs

Post by birddogger » Mon Sep 06, 2010 5:00 pm

quailrunner wrote:I guess If the birds around here left a 25-50 YARD scent cone, then a field trial bred dog would be great. Heck, my wife's King Charles Cavalier Spaniel (Pug nose and all) could find birds with those kinds of scent cones.
I look at it like this: The better hunter YOU are, the closer you like your dogs to work.
I am a little confused with this post. My dogs are hunting the birds, not me. :?

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Re: range in hunting dogs

Post by birddogger » Mon Sep 06, 2010 5:02 pm

Well Scott, it looks like you got a few nibbles. :lol:

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Re: range in hunting dogs

Post by Birddogz » Mon Sep 06, 2010 5:05 pm

Wyndancer,


It is about efficiency to me. If a dog and hunter go out for 1 hour and come back with 3 roosters, and they do this say 20 times in a row, then that dog is better than a dog that goes out and takes 3 hours to do so. All other controls being equal. Place hunted, shooting, etc. It is simply scientific method being applied. All other things being equal and the dog is the independent variable. The dependent variable is then the birds/hour. I seriously doubt that any freshman in HS could argue that a dog that brings say 6 birds per hour isn't better than a dog that produces 2. Obviously, the goal of any hunter is to be successful.

It doesn't really matter what anyone likes or dislikes. Whatever floats your boat, you should enjoy. What I am talking about, is the efficiency of the dog to produce results. Results that are consistent. Whatever dog does that the best is the one most hunters are going to want. If you get your limit quickly, pick up a camera.
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Re: range in hunting dogs

Post by ACooper » Mon Sep 06, 2010 6:15 pm

It seems that when talking range it is assumed by a few that everyone hunts the same terrain and style.

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