range in hunting dogs

[Ryman Gun Dog]

Gentlemen,
Ezzy asked the question what defines a breed, the breed standard has always defined the breed, and the breed standard is usually controlled by the main club and
either the accepted breed Warden or authority on that individual dog breed. Some very good point were made here in this thread, and some very good old time quotes also.
RGD/Dave

[dan v]

Gentlemen,
Ezzy asked the question what defines a breed, the breed standard has always defined the breed, and the breed standard is usually controlled by the main club and
either the accepted breed Warden or authority on that individual dog breed. Some very good point were made here in this thread, and some very good old time quotes also.
RGD/Dave

Fine Dave....tell me as you read the standard for Gordon Setters, how it defines the breed as a hunting dog. Does it define race, range, gait while hunting, posture on point any other host of things that make a good bird dog?

In fact does the standard contain any information that a person, starting from scratch, could recreate the breed short of size and color? No? Huh, imagine that.

[Ryman Gun Dog]

WynDancer,
I understand the Gordon Setter breed standard is fairly broad, but it does still spell out the size of the dog ect, however in most breed standards things are spelled out
in more definitate terms including personallity and hunting ability, there are actual testing cryteria and the dogs are tested to a standard, and the scores recoreded on the dogs pedigrees. In the Setter world the size, color and personallity are spelled out, the hunting abilty however was never really tested as part of the breed standard, it is talked about in gereral terms however.
Norm had great influence on the breed standard here in the USA, which does not exactly match the Scotland standard by the way. Not that this is good or bad, just different.
RGD/Dave

[cody]

I am still waiting for that breed standard for EP's I heard about. Where can I find it?

[Ryman Gun Dog]

Cody,
You are going to need to go clear back into the English records to find it, I did read it at one time when I was over there it is controlled by the English Pointer Club, the dogs were bigger back then and even stronger, if you can imagine that.
RGD/Dave

[dan v]

WynDancer,

Norm had great influence on the breed standard here in the USA, which does not exactly match the Scotland standard by the way. Not that this is good or bad, just different.
RGD/Dave

In what area did Norm have influence in? The size? The standard certainly seem to prefer a larger dog than the Springset dogs. The weight and amount of bone?...again, the standard seems to prefer larger and more. Color? I suppose Norm would agree that the Gordon Setter is identified as a black and tan dog. But I don't think that Norm is really opposed to white either.

So again Dave, what area of the Gordon Setter standard did Norm have influence in?

Why is the 1935 GSCA Standard highlighted on springset.com? And why Dave, is a liver/tan/white dog feature on their homepage? Mind you, I don't care, as those dogs have been produced for years...they were just kept from public eye.....or culled at birth.

[cody]

Ezzy asked the question what defines a breed, the breed standard has always defined the breed, and the breed standard is usually controlled by the main club and
either the accepted breed Warden or authority on that individual dog breed. Some very good point were made here in this thread, and some very good old time quotes also.
RGD/Dave

You are going to need to go clear back into the English records to find it, I did read it at one time when I was over there it is controlled by the English Pointer Club, the dogs were bigger back then and even stronger, if you can imagine that.

So I have some questions about this. The EP's here are obviously a completly different animal that what is seen over there, and they are where they are today without ever following any sort of standard. They also do very little testing as far as HD, eyes and all that other crap, and I have yet to see a breeder offer a 10 yr warranty on a EP.

So how is it that they have survived as hunting breed?
No standard, very little testing and yet they still do pretty well. What gives?

[Ryman Gun Dog]

Cody,
Even here in the USA the Pointer Clubs are very strong and produce great dogs, I am by no means an expert on Pointer dogs. I can only say they are still great dogs here in the USA and are slightly smaller than the original English Pointer. In reality they have not change very much genetically over many generations.
RGD/Dave

[Ryman Gun Dog]

WynDancer,
Norm is considered the authority on Gordon dogs here in this country, if you need to have answers about what his actual input was as to the current breed standard,
give him a call. I do know he has even had some beautiful Mahogany Gordons that he keeps in his kennel for himself, the breed standard still stand today.
RGD/Dave

[dan v]

WynDancer,
Norm is considered the authority on Gordon dogs here in this country, if you need to have answers about what his actual input was as to the current breed standard,
give him a call. I do know he has even had some beautiful Mahogany Gordons that he keeps in his kennel for himself, the breed standard still stand today.
RGD/Dave

Nice dodge Dave. You claim that Norm has had great influence in the Gordon Standard, I point out that it appear to me the Norm prefers the earlier version of the Gordon Standard, which by the way was implemented way, way before Norm and Sue established their line. And then you tell me that I need to speak with Norm? I'm not trying to speak for Norm and Sue...or Laura for that matter....you are.

I respect Norm/Sue/Laura....they've done great things for the breed, and they have come as close as possible to make a Gordon Setter a household name.

[Ryman Gun Dog]

Wyndancer,
You seem to be missing the point, Norn and his family have had as much influence on the Gordon dogs as Daniel Webster who initially brought the dogs to the USA.
The standard for these dogs in the USA has change somewhat and mostly due to their influence, in reality its like Norm and his family are the USA breed Wardens for
the Gordon Setter dogs, that is all I was trying to point out. I would never dream of talking for Norm or even Dan, those two gentlemen talk for them selves and do it quite well. Breed standards do matter, and although they sometimes change a little at a time thru the years, as the you see with the Gordon Setters, the breed standard is still how different dog breeds are identified and registered with pedigrees. Just because here in the USA the AKC and FDSB are some what lacks, because of money and politics, does not mean that the breed standard is completely irrelevant.
RGD/Dave

[ezzy333]

Wyndancer,
. Just because here in the USA the AKC and FDSB are some what lacks, because of money and politics, does not mean that the breed standard is completely irrelevant.
RGD/Dave

Don't believe that either organization has much to do with breed standards. Those are set by the parent club for each breed and given to AKC to use. But it's the members of the clubs that set the standard and always have.

Ezzy

[dan v]

Wyndancer,
You seem to be missing the point, Norn and his family have had as much influence on the Gordon dogs as Daniel Webster who initially brought the dogs to the USA.
RGD/Dave

Ok, I get your point....now. What confused me was that you implied that Norm had influence on the standard...the GSCA standard to which AKC Gordon Setters are judged by, in the conformation ring.

What you meant was that Norm has had influence on the breed as it is known here in the USA....Agreed. But Norm is hardly a "breed Warden"......performance is the breed Warden. Norm might even agree with that

[Ryman Gun Dog]

Wybndancer,
This is were you and I differ on our thinking, the breed standard is not just proformance based, that is why the field ES and the dual ES are different kinds of dogs, one meets breed standard, the other does not, and should have been forced to use another name for pedigrees on their dogs. This in reality caused a big mess in the ES Pedigree and caused forming of what is now known as the field ES.
RGD/Dave

[cody]

This in reality caused a big mess in the ES Pedigree and caused forming of what is now known as the field ES.

and thank goodness for that mess.

[dan v]

This in reality caused a big mess in the ES Pedigree and caused forming of what is now known as the field ES.

and thank goodness for that mess.

He just being stubborn now...or intentionally obtuse. Because if Dave can't go back and view the history of the setter breeds with an open mind and see that form follows function...and that the field dogs are remarkably unchanged...well he's just not open minded.

[Ryman Gun Dog]

Wyndancer,
Stubornness has nothing to due with it, form does follow function across the board, not only does the animal have to preform correctly the dog must meet size and
health requirements, to meet breed standard, that is the actual difference in the animals. The Scott Gordon Setter is different than the USA Gordon Setter, he is a biggers
stronger, and a more powerful animal, used for working the Heather while finding Grouse, different from the FT type Gordons here in the USA, which form and which function are you talking about the original Heather Grouse dog or ours here in the USA, if you talk breed standard then you always know what dog you are purchasing.
RGD/Dave

[dan v]

So the ground they hunt "over there" must look something like this?

[Wagonmaster]

is why the field ES and the dual ES are different kinds of dogs, one meets breed standard, the other does not,

I haven't bothered to look at the ES standard, but if its anything like GSP's it is the field dogs that are in standard, and the show people that want oversized, blocky, neck-too-long, hair-to-the-ground type dogs and even the show people who think sporting breeds have gotten too big in the ring, talk about pasterns and reach all designed for that little flying gait thingy. Maybe that is what you are saying, don't know, didn't read this entire thread to find out. I am glad the ES is still a field dog, there was a time in the 50's and 60's when it didn't look as though it was going to survive as a field breed.

I personally don't worry much about range in a hunting dog. If they have a nose, bird sense, and manners, they will wait. I have generally found, however, that the close range, so-called foot handling dogs have close range noses to go with, or no noses at all, and their handler is ecstatic the one time per year that they find something directly between their forefeet that they can point.

[Chukar12]

John,

that is funny...you responded to the post as it was entitled and 900 responses in it has nothing to do with the original topic. You are darned sure correct though...all "dual breeds" are at cross purposes to some extent (don't get mad Ezzy ... you and i know the Britt folks are closer) form should follow function ... but do field, show, agility, companion, etc... describe function the same? And I believe the power in the parent breed club will follow the revenue stream.

[BigShooter]

Dave (Ryman Dogs),

Maybe you should clearly define for us what you mean when you constantly use the term "companion hunting dog" because by dictionary definition any gun dog that accompanies a person while hunting is technically "a companion hunting dog". You seem to be the only one on this forum that uses that term. I know a lot of people that say their dogs provide companionship while hunting.

Also, please go on to explain for us what serious gun dogs accompanying us hunting are not "companion hunting dogs". Are dogs that accompany foot hunters the only dogs that can be "companion hunting dogs"? Does this term as you use it only apply to a dog's range? Does this term as you use it apply only to the grouse woods or does it apply to dogs that stay in front and work with us & for us while hunting in open country? Can a dog with no training what-so-ever be a companion hunting dog? I dunno, it almost seems like some sort of elitist term. Are you the only one that has and is able to identify a companion hunting dog? What yardstick can be used so anyone, anywhere would know when a dog has earned or attained this status?

[BigShooter]

="Wagonmaster
I personally don't worry much about range in a hunting dog. If they have a nose, bird sense, and manners, they will wait. I have generally found, however, that the close range, so-called foot handling dogs have close range noses to go with, or no noses at all, and their handler is ecstatic the one time per year that they find something directly between their forefeet that they can point.

Too bad you didn't read through the thread otherwise you would have learned something new, for instance that dogs pass by and miss a lot of birds if they extend very far away from you. Also you would have learned that a good dog can't hold birds (especially pheasants) long enough for you to get there if the pointing dog isn't near you when it goes on point. By the way you have also been doing the impossible for many years now filling out on pheasants in ND at the end of the season with dogs that can run big.

[JKP]

Don't believe that either organization has much to do with breed standards. Those are set by the parent club for each breed and given to AKC to use. But it's the members of the clubs that set the standard and always have.

Not quite true...the AKC gets to approve the standard and tacitly does not like standards with too many disqualifications and has never allowed anything that would smack of performance requirements or breeding restrictions. You are correct, that the AKC breed clubs get to vote on the standard they want which can be greatly influenced by the pursuits of the participating members. If 20% votes, then 10.1% decides the standard.

[ezzy333]

="Wagonmaster
I personally don't worry much about range in a hunting dog. If they have a nose, bird sense, and manners, they will wait. I have generally found, however, that the close range, so-called foot handling dogs have close range noses to go with, or no noses at all, and their handler is ecstatic the one time per year that they find something directly between their forefeet that they can point.

Too bad you didn't read through the thread otherwise you would have learned something new, for instance that dogs pass by and miss a lot of birds if they extend very far away from you. Also you would have learned that a good dog can't hold birds (especially pheasants) long enough for you to get there if the pointing dog isn't near you when it goes on point. By the way you have also been doing the impossible for many years now filling out on pheasants in ND at the end of the season with dogs that can run big.

Now this post though reasonably accurate has all of the earmarks of something a troll would post. Don't think we need that here.

Ezzy

[SHORTFAT]

now... far be it from me to ruffle any grouse feathers... but Wagonmaster, are you saying that close working dogs have poorer noses than big runners? and my next question to that is... can form follow function in more than one direction? I had a lab with a fantastic nose. he didn't stumble on anything. he found it... but he worked very close. I just thought he was thorough... but I do see the advantage to covering alot of ground... and a dog would have to be able to "sniff quick" to really cover it... so you may have a point there, but I think you may be slighting some good close working dogs. If my EP is a hundred yards away from me in NW Pa, she's on the next ridge and I'll be too pooped to shoot straight when I get to her... and I doubt a grouse will wait any way...

[JKP]

There is absolutely no evidence to substantiate that foot speed, range or hair color has anything to do with the ability of a dog to scent at distance, etc. if this were true then bloodhounds walking on a lead wouldn't be able to find a Philly cheese steak on the front stoop.

[Iowa]

Man this thing is going on forever. Remind me not to bring this subject up. I will say it all depends on the ground AND the hunter. Guys in my group would not put up with a ranging dog. My breeder would not put up with a close hunting dog....so as long as I have plenty of dogs to cover the ground and the long rangers AND short dogs dont bust anything I really dont care...I just like to see dogs hunt and love to shoot pheasants

[ACooper]

I have generally found, however, that the close range, so-called foot handling dogs have close range noses to go with, or no noses at all, and their handler is ecstatic the one time per year that they find something directly between their forefeet that they can point.

This is just as absurd as all of the generalities about big running dogs. I assume this is a "tit for tat" remark.

[BigShooter]

I personally don't worry much about range in a hunting dog. If they have a nose, bird sense, and manners, they will wait.

Too bad you didn't read through the thread otherwise you would have learned something new, for instance that dogs pass by and miss a lot of birds if they extend very far away from you.

Someone might want to disclose the fact too that when you have a dog that ranges out to a 1/2 mile he misses the birds that are in close to you no matter how good his nose is.

That's the point I've been trying to get my brain wrapped around. If a scent cone of a bird is, what, 20-50 yards, and your dog is looping out to 800 with obvious cover inbetween, seems to me you watching a track meet. Nothing wrong with that, but how could a dog possibly root out every bird if he is that far out front?

Also you would have learned that a good dog can't hold birds (especially pheasants) long enough for you to get there if the pointing dog isn't near you when it goes on point.

I understand a big running dog can be trained to hold point all day,but I've never seen anybody be able to train a wild pheasant to hold FOR that point all day.

By the way you have also been doing the impossible for many years now filling out on pheasants in ND at the end of the season with dogs that can run big.

One question for you FT guys. How many of you hunt late season pheasants in the Dakotas?
For pheasants in the late season in the Dakotas, your dog better not be much more than 100 yards in front. If a dog quarters and stays out to 100 yards in the late season he is doing his job because he will point loads of birds.
I guess what I would like to know is what are the advantages of running a big going dog on pheasants? I see none. A late season rooster is going to give you a minute Because to say it is a more efficient way to hunt is going against almost everything I have seen in 30 years of hunting

Ezzy - troll remarks are disruptive, extraneous & off topic.

[BigShooter]

There is absolutely no evidence to substantiate that foot speed, range or hair color has anything to do with the ability of a dog to scent at distance, etc. if this were true then bloodhounds walking on a lead wouldn't be able to find a Philly cheese steak on the front stoop.

JKP, I read a summary of a researcher's tests that concluded dogs of darker color had better noses/scenting ability. I don't know if I believe it.

[ezzy333]

Mark, Trolls quite often address their remarks to another poster instead of the subject at hand trying to get him/her riled up over some remark someone has made. We all have opinions but some of us get carried away and think our way is the only way and I think we know better than that.

Ezzy

[Wagonmaster]

This is just as absurd as all of the generalities about big running dogs. I assume this is a "tit for tat" remark.

I am telling you what I have observed over decades of working with and judging hunting dogs of all types, including the "versatiles". No, I have not done any statistical analysis and I am not going to either. I have seen what I have seen, you can accept my view or not. The thing is, I really like dogs. It practically makes me cry when someone brings a young pup out of show stock that they are really excited about to get in some early bird work, the pup has no interest in birds at all and never will, or it will take alot of work to develop what should be built in and it will never be what it should be. It shouldn't surprise me anymore when an owner brags up their "close working companion dog," said to be great in the grouse woods, then I go hunting with them, the dog doesn't leave the logging trail and can't find a bird to save its life. Or the dog that stops on the one pheasant hen that stayed in the grass, directly between its paws, and the owner thinks he has a wonderful hunting dog. Or the owner brags up how his dog beats all others to the retrieve with those long legs, but you watch it work, and what it is actually doing is letting the other dogs find the bird then stealing it, usually with a little growling and snapping going on adn the possibility of someone in the hunting party getting bitten.

I have also seen some truly exceptional work out of versatile breeds. I have seen one "close working dog" that was worth something in the grouse woods, a GWP that had been on hundreds of wild birds since it was a pup, but all the other "close working grouse dogs" I have seen have been utterly useless.

As I said, and as was apparently deliberately overlooked in the reading, I don't care what a dog's range is, long or short or in the middle, the range is not important. What a dog needs is nose, bird sense, and manners. Frankly, the biggest issue I have seen is owners who do not recognize or understand what these things are, and who, out of lack of understanding or an unwillingness to work with their dogs, never develop these things in the dog. It takes many hours on wild birds, pen raised and game farm birds will only take you so far.

[V-John]

This is just as absurd as all of the generalities about big running dogs. I assume this is a "tit for tat" remark.

I am telling you what I have observed over decades of working with and judging hunting dogs of all types, including the "versatiles". No, I have not done any statistical analysis and I am not going to either. I have seen what I have seen, you can accept my view or not. The thing is, I really like dogs. It practically makes me cry when someone brings a young pup out of show stock that they are really excited about to get in some early bird work, the pup has no interest in birds at all and never will, or it will take alot of work to develop what should be built in and it will never be what it should be. It shouldn't surprise me anymore when an owner brags up their "close working companion dog," said to be great in the grouse woods, then I go hunting with them, the dog doesn't leave the logging trail and can't find a bird to save its life. Or the dog that stops on the one pheasant hen that stayed in the grass, directly between its paws, and the owner thinks he has a wonderful hunting dog. Or the owner brags up how his dog beats all others to the retrieve with those long legs, but you watch it work, and what it is actually doing is letting the other dogs find the bird then stealing it, usually with a little growling and snapping going on adn the possibility of someone in the hunting party getting bitten.

I have also seen some truly exceptional work out of versatile breeds. I have seen one "close working dog" that was worth something in the grouse woods, a GWP that had been on hundreds of wild birds since it was a pup, but all the other "close working grouse dogs" I have seen have been utterly useless.

As I said, and as was apparently deliberately overlooked in the reading, I don't care what a dog's range is, long or short or in the middle, the range is not important. What a dog needs is nose, bird sense, and manners. Frankly, the biggest issue I have seen is owners who do not recognize or understand what these things are, and who, out of lack of understanding or an unwillingness to work with their dogs, never develop these things in the dog. It takes many hours on wild birds, pen raised and game farm birds will only take you so far.

Thank God, a voice of reason!!!!

[JKP]

Wagonmaster,
Didn't realize we were talking about show stock....why would we ever do that when talking about comparing anything? You are confusing range with desire....the dog that doesn't leave the trail suffers from lack of desire...since it has little interest in finding game, how can we tell from what distance and under what conditions it could scent game? In theory, the 30 mph dog with the 50 acre nose finds more game. Problem is I hear all the time about these dogs but have never seen one. I have seen 100yd dogs scent game from 100 yds away....I doubt the half mile dog does it any better. To say that closer working dogs have less nose, is to say that handlers who restrict their dogs from developing range also take away the nose of the dog....how does that work?? Genetic regression through obedience training!!!!...interesting concept.

Bigger running dogs may find more game when there is little game to be found....can save you a lot of walking...on birds that will sit. The problem I have with big running grouse dogs is that once you get beyond the edges of the cover I hunt, its almost impossible to walk through the tangles and there is NO way to get to those birds without making a whole lot of racket. I also hate beepers....and locating by Garmin is like playing computer games....next thing we'll be doing is sending out armed drones to kill the birds by remote control...besides I like seeing my dog make game and point once in a while....the shot is anticlimactic. Give me a nice 50-100 yd grouse dog....I'm not walking 400 yds up the hillside to a bird that flushes before I get there. A bird half way up these NY hillsides is not easy to get to

Frankly, the biggest issue I have seen is owners who do not recognize or understand what these things are, and who, out of lack of understanding or an unwillingness to work with their dogs, never develop these things in the dog. It takes many hours on wild birds, pen raised and game farm birds will only take you so far.

BINGO!!! Break the gun and educate the dog...takes a lot of walking...but all the time spent on wild game pays off BIG after the third season.

[BigShooter]

Ezzy,

As you well know I do not espouse "my way is the best or only way".

I will repost for the second time what I posted early, on page two of these posts:

This subject can be debated forever. It is possible we could agree on a few things. A good pointer to hunt with:

1. is honest on it's birds, standing well off & by it's actions hold the birds as well as possible until the hunter arrives,
2. goes with the hunter whether very close or a ways off, i.e. keeps track of where the hunter is, generally follows the hunter's line of travel & does not run off
3. has a good nose and finds birds
4. conserves energy, not wasting a lot of energy covering non-bird producing ground, maintains a reasonable pace & doesn't poop out half way through the hunting day
5. comes when called
6. tracks & retrieves wounded & dead birds

If a dog doesn't do the minimum it's going to be a relative liability for the hunter.

[BigShooter]

A smart, well seasoned wild bird dog with a good nose may:

1. Range & pattern differently based upon the conditions
2. Have a good grasp of its quarry & the quarry's behaviors
3. Change range to cut off or pin down running birds
4. be better than you at knowing where the birds are
5. have fewer false points
6. not bump many birds
7. not waste much time & energy pouring over unproductive cover
8. hit objectives without prior direction from the hunter
9. not miss many birds regardless of its natural range
10. be hunting for itself or for you based upon any or all of the following: nature, nuture & training
11. give you that "why, after all of my nice work did you have to miss" look or the "oh well, I'll just go find another one for you" look or the attaboy, good job, I'll run right over and pick that up for you, so we can do it again look

[Wagonmaster]

Bigger running dogs may find more game when there is little game to be found....can save you a lot of walking...on birds that will sit. The problem I have with big running grouse dogs is that once you get beyond the edges of the cover I hunt, its almost impossible to walk through the tangles and there is NO way to get to those birds without making a whole lot of racket. I also hate beepers....and locating by Garmin is like playing computer games....next thing we'll be doing is sending out armed drones to kill the birds by remote control...besides I like seeing my dog make game and point once in a while....the shot is anticlimactic. Give me a nice 50-100 yd grouse dog....I'm not walking 400 yds up the hillside to a bird that flushes before I get there. A bird half way up these NY hillsides is not easy to get to

I agree with pretty much everything in this assessment, except I don't mind grouse dogs at the edge of bell range. That is probably closer to 200 yards, but that does not mean they are there all the time either. I don't pretend to understand your cover and have not hunted it, most of our grouse woods are in the northern part of the state and fairly flat. I have hunted a little in the SW corner of MN, which is hills and valleys, and it is not much fun to walk all the way down and then all the way up again, and then back down, etc. I have seen grouse dogs in trials that run bigger than what either of us is talking about, out to three maybe four hundred yards. The really good ones have such great noses and manners on birds that, as I said earlier, you really don't care where they are as long as you can find them when the bell goes dead. They are right about birds being there every time, and they are not going to do anything to push the birds out. But those have been rare and truly exceptional dogs very well trained, National Champion caliber, not your every day, day in and day out grouse dog, which is a very good dog in and of itself.

I am back to what I said before. It is not range. It is bird sense, nose, and manners. The better these are, the less you care where the dog is running as long as it is safe and you know you can find it when it is standing.

[Tas]

I have seen grouse dogs in trials that run bigger than what either of us is talking about, out to three maybe four hundred yards. The really good ones have such great noses and manners on birds that, as I said earlier, you really don't care where they are as long as you can find them when the bell goes dead. They are right about birds being there every time, and they are not going to do anything to push the birds out. But those have been rare and truly exceptional dogs very well trained, National Champion caliber, not your every day, day in and day out grouse dog, which is a very good dog in and of itself.

Where can I get a bell I can hear 400 yards away in the grouse woods?

[JKP]

Where can I get a bell I can hear 400 yards away in the grouse woods?

Garmin makes them

[Neil]

I find it interesting that those of us that like a big going dog rarely say anything negative about a close hunting dog, other than they are not for us.

Yet those that like a short dog, seem certain that we cannot hunt our dogs, in effect calling us liars, that our dogs are of no value, that the birds won't hold, etc.

If your dog pleases you, at whatever his range, then I am fine with it.

But please don't try to tell me that a big going dog can't hunt. I have successfully hunted those mystical late season pheasants from a 4-wheeler.

Neil

[Tas]

Where can I get a bell I can hear 400 yards away in the grouse woods?

Garmin makes them

Great! Three collars on the dog. Shock collar transmitter in one hand, Garmin in the other. I need a porter to carry my gun for me.

The beeper is as advanced as I get and I don't always use that. I'd rather just grouse hunt and leave the gadgets for the gamers.

[birddogger]

If your dog pleases you, at whatever his range, then I am fine with it.

+1

Charlie

[JKP]

I find it interesting that those of us that like a big going dog rarely say anything negative about a close hunting dog, other than they are not for us.

Yet those that like a short dog, seem certain that we cannot hunt our dogs, in effect calling us liars, that our dogs are of no value, that the birds won't hold, etc.

If your dog pleases you, at whatever his range, then I am fine with it.

But please don't try to tell me that a big going dog can't hunt. I have successfully hunted those mystical late season pheasants from a 4-wheeler.

Neil

Of course a big going dog can hunt. We run into problems because most folks with big running dogs want to insist that their dogs need only "breeze" the downwind edge of a quarter section to determine if there are birds on those 160 acres... Remember what Wagonmaster said....faster dogs have the better nose.

First off...almost everyone who claims he has a big running dog overestimates distance. I have hunted with FT GSPs and Pointers and have yet to see a dog 400 yds away. Some start off a way off...but the working distance shortens up fairly quickly...on foot I mean.

Second...I have shot enough birds underneath big running dogs with my 200 yd bootlickers to realize that speed and distance doesn't find all the birds by a long shot. However do I limit out with longtails out ahead of my dogs? how should that be possible??? I think these dogs have an edge but it is nowhere near as much as horseowners want to think. I also rarely need to go find my bootlickers....generally, I'm hunting all the time.

Different strokes....we only get into trouble when folks want to climb to the top of the heap and crow

[Birddogz]

I'm sure big going dogs will allow you to limit out on pheasants, and if you enjoy watching a big going dog, more power to you. However, a closer hunting dog in late season for phez is more effective/efficient. More birds killed per hour. This is what I have observed in 30 years of pheasant hunting. Not that big going dogs CAN'T, it is that they aren't the best weapon for the occasion. Bobs, sharpies are big dog specialties, but no more than 400 yards is necessary on foot.

[Dave Quindt]

Tas wrote

Where can I get a bell I can hear 400 yards away in the grouse woods?

http://www.lcsupply.com/Product/Dog-Bel ... -Bell.html

I can confirm that I heard that bell at 9/10ths of a mile in the grouse woods last October, according to the Garmin. Now, I'll admit that is was in near-perfect conditions; perfectly still evening with no breeze and all of the leaves down.

The dog got on a deer and then got himself lost. Had some swamp in between us, so I couldn't go to him. Just kept singing to him and reeled him in through a mile of Wisconsin woods.

Unless you have used a REALLY good bell, you have no idea how far a bell can be heard.

FWIW,
Dave

[BigShooter]

Is there a difference between a big going dog as that term is being used repeatedly in this thread and a dog that is capable of going big?

I don't think I've hunted with enough bad, so called big goin' dogs to understand what some of you are trying to say. I've hunted with dogs that are capable of going big but I haven't hunted with one that has extended out before determining the birds either never were or weren't now in the immediate area. I don't call a 200 yard dog a bootlicker. I've hunted with dogs that don't extend out, staying behind good dogs that have already checked out the area and extended out. The dogs that didn't extend out have had little to no success under these circumstances. Frankly I wouldn't tolerate a dog that charged through an area with hot scent just to feel the breeze in its face. I would call that a bad dog and range has nothing to do with it. I also have never hunted with a dog that is capable of going big that abandoned a closer area with birds and scent.

I have however seen dogs catch scent, figure out birds are running, take off like a shot and pin running pheasants before they escaped from the end of a tree line now some 350 yards or more in the distance.

Whether it stays closer or is capable of extending out, I just can't accept the notion that all of a dog's attributes are tied to it's athleticism.

[JKP]

Whether it stays closer or is capable of extending out, I just can't accept the notion that all of a dog's attributes are tied to it's athleticism.

I think a few of us are having a little fun with this topic .... Wagonmaster said what I believe above all else...dogs that search hard for birds, work for the gun, show manners (and some style) on game and then work hard to bring it to hand will more than satisfy all but the hardest FT snob...

Even in the toughest of years, I have been able to put limits in my vest before lunchtime with my Vdog bootlickers...frankly, if I had any of those horizon cruising wonder dogs, I probably couldn't afford my bar bills

[BigShooter]

Frankly, if you have access to good bird areas in ND, even in the toughest years you can fill your bag by 10 am with a pretty average gun dog. If you don't have access to areas holding birds in the toughest years, it won't matter how good the dog is that you put on the ground because it can't find what's not there.

[DGFavor]

What was the question...oh yah, range??...read thru this and it sounds like it's whatever it takes man, whatever it takes...

[Tas]

I can confirm that I heard that bell at 9/10ths of a mile in the grouse woods last October, according to the Garmin. Now, I'll admit that is was in near-perfect conditions; perfectly still evening with no breeze and all of the leaves down.

Great, but how far can you hear that bell in typical grouse hunting conditions.

Did the dog point a grouse at 9/10ths of mile? Where you able to flush the bird and shoot it?