range in hunting dogs

[ACooper]

Ok so let's move on to the "raw diet is best" thread in the other section,

Is there and emocticon for blowing my brains out???

[JKP]

I have had several FC trainers tell me that many dogs are conditioned to run big enough to compete...they come with the potential and then the conditioning brings it out. All agreed that the AA dog is an exception. I think with well bred dogs, we play just as an important role as trainers.

That said...physical size, ease of movement and desire are the biggest variables.

[BigShooter]

Dave,

I sent you a PM.

[Hotpepper]

I still want to go to Dakota and hunt sharptails with Dr. Doug Favor.

All who want to go let me know.

Pepper

[dan v]

I don't care if Doug is hunting a beer....I'm in.

[Greg Jennings]

Actually Eugenics preceded the Nazi's and was actually embraced by many Americans including Woodrow Wilson believe it or not.

Oh, yes. About choked when back in my ethics class read a quote by an American proponent arguing for broader gov't powers said of the Nazis "They are beating us at our own game!". All that is why I have one foot in the libertarian camp.

[Birddogz]

I understand a big running dog can be trained to hold point all day,but I've never seen anybody be able to train a wild pheasant to hold FOR that point all day.I prefer a medium range dog at most.

Absolutely correct.

[BigShooter]

I understand a big running dog can be trained to hold point all day,but I've never seen anybody be able to train a wild pheasant to hold FOR that point all day.I prefer a medium range dog at most.

I understand a small running dog can be trained to hold point all day, but I've never seen anybody be able to train a wild bird to hold FOR that point all day and not move off.

Absolutely correct.

[live4point]

I understand a big running dog can be trained to hold point all day,but I've never seen anybody be able to train a wild pheasant to hold FOR that point all day.I prefer a medium range dog at most.

I understand a small running dog can be trained to hold point all day, but I've never seen anybody be able to train a wild bird to hold FOR that point all day and not move off.

Absolutely correct.

It works out pretty well,you just mosey over and and kick the old rooster up as he's walking off.The only downside is at the end of season you have enough feathers to fill a pillow in your game vest you have to clean out.

[Birddogz]

You keep talking like this and people might actually learn how to kill more pheasants.

[Birddogz]

I guess what I would like to know is what are the advantages of running a big going dog on pheasants? I see none. A late season rooster is going to give you a minute at most to flush him before he is gone. What am I not seeing in this discussion?

If it is just the look of a big running dog, then say it. Because to say it is a more efficient way to hunt is going against almost everything I have seen in 30 years of hunting and talking to hunters, some who do it for a living.

[tn red]

How do you feel about range on bobs ?This thread was about range in hunting dogs,phez arent the only birds

[Birddogz]

On huns, sharpies, bobs, let 'em go. That is the most efficient way to hunt them. 2-300 yards without a horse, 400-800 yards if you have one. I have no problem with dogs ranging big if it increases success. It is all about what works best for the birds.

[Neil]

I believe the primary purpose of my dogs is to be companions, to love and be loved. When hunting I really am not all that concerned about how quickly I fill my bag, in fact my hunting journal rarely even mentions how many birds we killed, no, it is filled with good dog work, hunting partner's good shots, and my impressions of the great outdoors.

But however you enjoy your dog is the right way for you.

I have 8 adult dogs in my kennel, Boykins and big going Brittanys, none are specialists, all will and have hunted most of the birds in North America. Yet, just as I don't select a goose gun when quail hunting (although I have killed snipe with 3 and 1/2 inch 2's), I try to pick the dog to match the area to be hunted. If I can see a dog go on point, most times I would have had more fun with a flusher.

If it is big area with suspected sparse bird populations I go with the pointing dogs, if it is a tight area with hopefully a number of birds I put the Boykins down.

None of us need to kill a limit of birds to eat, if you are still counting the number of kill to measure the hunt, you still have room to grow, and more enjoyment to come.

That is the real answer to this debate of how much range in a dog, whatever pleases you!

Neil

[Ryman Gun Dog]

Red,
I agree there are different dogs for different jobs, if I was living in south Texas and hunting wild Quail I want a big running dog, if I am out west hunting Sharpies or Chukar I want a big running dog. Its not the range that matters its the bidability of the dog and willingness to work the required habitat that matters. 70% genetics 30%
experience and training. Because I spend 8 months of the year in the back woods of Pa, I own Ryman Setter, Gordon Setters, Small Munsterlanders and a Weimar
that keeps our kennel secure and hunts Grouse also. Not often do I hunt Pheasants, but I do have a fun time with them once in a while, in MT or here in Pa.
If I lived in Texas I would definately own a fine Miller Pointer and a Weimar who ran on the big side, in fact when I was in the military at Ft Hood, these are the exact animals I owned. As was stated before its important to own the dogs you are most going to hunt with, sence I mostly Grouse hunt Pa, WVa and New England I have chosen certain dogs that hunt the woods very well. For those gentlemen who are into flushing dogs more, we ( my brother and I) owned Boykins for many years and they are exceptional Grouse dogs in their own way, we worked them with our German Shorthair and they produced incredibly well. When our 14 year old SM passes away we are looking to replace him with a Deutsch Langhaar, because of their incredible
hunting talent and layed back personality. Myself I like to hunt in different ways with dogs that have different hunting styles, and own the animals that hunt well in the forest, are compatible with each other, and are fantastic in my home. We demand a lot more from the dogs around here than just instinctive hunting talent, they must also fit into our over all way of life.
RGD/Dave

[AzDoggin]

That is the real answer to this debate of how much range in a dog, whatever pleases you!

That's what it's all about, right there.

[Birddogz]

I understand your points, but the part about if you can see your dog while hunting you would rather have a flusher? I just don't get that one. Also, if there are plenty of birds you select a flusher? Just don't understand those two comments. I can see my dogs in ND,SD,NE,KS for up to 1000 yards. Do I need to hunt a flusher? WHen plenty of birds are around I really like my dogs to get lots of points, I should put a flusher down? Why not let the pointing dog get a ton of work? A point ensures a readiness that increases ones odds of a clean kill. Also, if you can't see your dogs, what exactly are you enjoying about your dogs?
Lastly, I do enjoy eating wild game. I would expect it saves me 2-4000 dollars a year in food bills, not to mention what it saves on dog food. (feeding raw) Limiting out is not the only element to hunting, but full game bags have certainly never hurt my feelings! That is after all why they call it bird HUNTING, and not bird viewing. Now, if I don't get my limit, can I still have a great day with friends and dogs? Darn right, but I still am trying to get my birds.

[Ryman Gun Dog]

Birddogz,
Let me add something further, I like to work flushing dogs with our pointing dogs, one points the other flushes and retrieves, its a great way to hunt.
Don't agree that if you can see your dog you need a flusher, my flush on command SM does both jobs no matter if I can see him in the Grouse woods or not.
RGD/Dave

[quailrunner]

Looks like you have trained the dog better than your wife has trained you. My wife would turn the e-collar to full blast if I put dead birds on the furniture.
Hey is that a "Whoa Dammit" statue in the background?

[Neil]

I can see my dogs in ND,SD,NE,KS for up to 1000 yards. Do I need to hunt a flusher? :

No, but few would consider 1,000 yards as short in range. You ought to hunt whatever dog you like.

Just telling you what I do. But to make it clearer for you, if birds are suspected to be bunched up in thick cover I hunt with flushers. If birds are spread out, then pointing dogs. Most places where you can still see a dog at 1,000 birds aren't plentiful. And to be clearer still, I suspect I see my dogs point about half the time, which is about right.

It is rare that we do not have to stop and count the birds to be sure we do not go over the limit, so my way works, too.

Neil

[Birddogz]

I don't disagree that a big running dog is beneficial in wide open spaces. Very beneficial for sure. I am simply saying that in pheasant hunting, a big ranging dog isn't ideal. Sharpies, Huns, Bobs, let them roll! I have no doubt that your way works. I just use my pointing dogs in every case, where as you use flushers in tight hunting. Nothing wrong with it at all.

[live4point]

Years ago,I hunted with a guy and his 2 dogs that were on both ends of the extreme range spectrum.A big running english pointer and a super close gsp.Within 5 min. out of the truck,the pointer was running the edge on some bottom land about a half mile away,on land we didn't have permission to hunt,I think the owner would have like to have stung his butt with some shot,but they haven't invented shotgun loads that will travel that far.Now I said the gsp was close,but that was an understatement.He had a range on short grass of about 20 yds. max,and most of the time it looked like he was at heel,never trotted or ran,just walked along.You had to slow down a lot of times so you didn't kick him with your feet as you were walking,never saw nothing like it.Some time later we accidently came upon the pointer who was in the total opposite direction we had seen him last,and he had a covey of quail pointed.We put up the birds and off went the pointer looking for another covey,never saw him the rest of the hunt.When the singles went down,the gsp went to work,he walked around and pointed about every bird in that covey,still at his same pace and range.To this day I have never seen a dog work a bunch of birds like he did.I don't remember how mant points he made on those singles,but it was a big covey and he had to have pointed about every one of them.You could have wiped the covey plum out if you wanted to.We both took a couple of birds a piece,and then just started kicking the rest up and let them fly away that the gsp pointed. Now a person might take the big running dogs side,and say we wouldn't have found the birds without him,but that wasn't really the case,as we were headed right for that spot with the gsp anyway,and there is no doubt in my mind that the gsp would have pointed them.This would have never worked if we were into pheasant,but on this one day,at that one place and time I got to see a show,and that's what it's all about.

[Chukar12]

It is so difficult to have a reasonable discussion let alone a scientific one about genetics, range and canine flatulence with so many different points of view. Without question much of the finished product in a dog is a matter of the environment in which it is raised, the training and the purpose of that training...and the genetics of the modern field bred sporting dog are almost without fail well developed enough to be adequate as a hunting dog if they are in the right hands from the get go. At some point Birddogz makes reference to using "enough electricity" to keep his blood pressure down; I argue that this is a person with too much dog in their hands and it is the bane of many; a rush to hunt and obvious shortcuts or gaps in training. Many, many dogs will range too far for a hunter in this mindset.

Of course genetics play a role, the terms All-Age, Shooting Dog and Gun Dog have been established to stratify among other things the appropriate range for a given situation. In watching 40 plus dogs run this weekend, some of them siblings and under the whistle of the same professional trainer I can tell you emphatically that dogs like people are different. Very few dogs can handle at all-age range even from the same litter, and by handle I don't just mean bird manners I mean cover all ground to the front efficiently without checking back in and playing loopy loop. Dogs like their wolf ancestors can and do learn to hunt like the rest of their pack, this means they adjust to the style of the others on their predatory team and the game at hand, some are simply suited to a more aggressive role than others.

My dogs would be lost, at least initially hunting grouse in heavy cover, they would probably spend a good portion of their day following and relocating on running pheasants in the Dakotas while we passed countless others trying to get to them, but I venture they wouldn't if I raised them there and shaped their behavior to serve my purposes in that country. The correct range can only be answered from very specific points of view.

[Birddogz]

Live4point,
20 yards is too close even for me. I'll take a dog out to 100 for phez, and 2-300 for quail. Biggest thing is that I want a dog that hunts near me, and for me. That run off stuff is as frustrating as it gets. Really doesn't work for phez, as you mention.

[Birddogz]

Chukar,
I agree about a dog learning to hunt the cover they are familiar with. My dogs certainly hunt differently when hunting PCs or sharptails in open prairie. I also totally agree that AA dogs are few and far between. What I am saying is that dogs like DDs and French Brits and others seem to hunt at a closer range naturally, and hunt more for the hunter. They aren't charging way out normally. This is great for me since I hunt phez most of the time, and I used to hunt Ruffs a lot also. It is just easier having a dog that hunts the way you need naturally, without the headaches of "stimulation".

[live4point]

I agree birdogz.I wouldn't give a plug nickel to hunt birds without a dog,the great thing for me is being able to watch the dogs work.You can come upon the big running dog on point,but you really didn't get to see the show.You don't get to see the dog catch that whif of birds turn and lock up,which to me is what it's all about. To each his own,but a big running dog just won't work where I hunt,so I have no use for them.With our declineing bird numbers,even the quail we have are getting pretty jumpy,the ones we have are bred from real survivors and alot of them won't even hold for point long.When I started hunting birds we didn't have pheasant around here.When we started getting a huntable population of them,it changed a lot of things.We started needing closer working dogs,have to carry a little heavier shot and so on.I won't knock anybodys dog,but I know what works and what doesn't around where I hunt.I hunt dogs that aren't constantly pulling me,at a pace that is comfortable and pleasureable and I get to watch my dogs work,which is what I'm out there for.Nothin finer in my book.

[Ryman Gun Dog]

Quailrunner,
I figure we must be from different generations, my wife knows she can never train or control me, that was established before we married.
The way you talk however, it sounds like we live quite differently for sure. The homes we live in belong to both of us, we have 2 beautiful homes, when ever I post that particular picture, I usually get some young man who reacts to it, as you did. Men raised in our mountains in my era, married ladies who
were greatful they were married to dominant men, I am very lucky to have been married to the same wonderful lady for 30 years, took her 20 of those years to get me to wear undies. Even with being taught all the social graces as a youngsters, a man needs to act like a man, especially if he is raising sons. Nothing wrong with a well trained bird dog and his Grouse in the formal living room, as long as the dog behaves and the birds are not bloody. The lady has no say as to how many dogs we own, or how they are kept in our home, it simply does not fall under her purview. The lady is my wife, I am not her son.
RGD/Dave

[Birddogz]

AMEN Brother Ryman! Finally a man with a pair! Divorce laws of late have changed the power structure unfortunately. I rule the roost normally, but my wife has told me that 3 dogs is the limit inside, and I have to agree with her after my DD. Crazy little bitch inside the house if she hasn't run in a few days. When we had the blizzards last year,and couldn't hunt for 10 days she was about unbearable.

[Chukar12]

Range in hunting dogs = no undies, divorce laws, generational conflict...

[Grange]

For years hunting behind flushers I and friends pointing dogs I wanted to be able to see a dog in the grouse woods. However once I started getting into pointing dogs more I began to change my mind and now with my english setter I love it when she's "out there" in the grouse woods. I just purchased a Garmin Astro and she will often run at ranges at 100 yards or more and it's not uncommon for her to get close to 200 yards even in woods where at 20 yards you can't see your dog. I have found a lot more birds with this setter than just about any other dog I've hunted behind except for my father's brittany who can run that big as well. If a dog is going to run bigger it has to be honest with its birds and that isn't a problem with my setter or the brittany.

And to make my hunt even more enjoyable I run my setter with my lab who is a tigher ranging dog, but unfortunately for my lab she doesn't find as many birds as she did before the setter came along. The setter doesn't pass by too many.

[Birddogz]

100 yards is perfect!

[ezzy333]

Range in hunting dogs = no undies, divorce laws, generational conflict...

Gee I had no idea range in a hunting dog effected all of these areas of a persons behavior. Will have to ask more questions now when someone says they want a dog that ranges or stays close. Is it the ones that want them close that don't wear undies?

Ezzy

[Chukar12]

Ezzy,

these questions and so many more can be answered in the body of this post...I am going back through it to see if I can figure out who killed Kennedy.

Joe

[Birddogz]

I did.

[quailrunner]

RGD, I am very surprised that your still alive. Dominant Male Syndrome is the number one cause of divorce these days. And just like you "Ole Timers" used to cull gun shy dogs by taking them out back and shooting them it would stand to reason that you should have been culled after 15 yrs of undie training.
You say "the lady has no say on what you bring into the house", I say that means it isn't her house!!
You say "a man needs to act like a man, especially if he is raising sons". I say that it takes sooo much more then acting.
You may think that your old ways of living the "Dominant Male" role were good and honest and that I don't know what you are talking about but I do. My Dad was a military "lifer" 24yrs. It made me an Army Brat for the first 17 yrs of my life. Your ways and his ways are long gone, you wouldn't stand a chance raising kids these days. That lady you married sounds like the only one that could save your sorry butt
!!! God Bless Her, Lord help you.

[birddogger]

Quailrunner,
I figure we must be from different generations, my wife knows she can never train or control me, that was established before we married.
The way you talk however, it sounds like we live quite differently for sure. The homes we live in belong to both of us, we have 2 beautiful homes, when ever I post that particular picture, I usually get some young man who reacts to it, as you did. Men raised in our mountains in my era, married ladies who
were greatful they were married to dominant men, I am very lucky to have been married to the same wonderful lady for 30 years, took her 20 of those years to get me to wear undies. Even with being taught all the social graces as a youngsters, a man needs to act like a man, especially if he is raising sons. Nothing wrong with a well trained bird dog and his Grouse in the formal living room, as long as the dog behaves and the birds are not bloody. The lady has no say as to how many dogs we own, or how they are kept in our home, it simply does not fall under her purview. The lady is my wife, I am not her son.
RGD/Dave

WHAT A MAN!!!! Just having some fun Dave.

Charlie

[Ryman Gun Dog]

Charlie,
No problem sir, I take as well as I give. But I got to tell ya the way the world is going we men are an endangered species.

Quailrunner,
If your father is still alive, next time you see him thank that dominant man for your freedom, and tell him I said hello.
Hope your generation with all your delicate ways can manage to pass on the freedom us dominant heathen men provided.

RGD/Dave

[ezzy333]

RGD, I am very surprised that your still alive. Dominant Male Syndrome is the number one cause of divorce these days. And just like you "Ole Timers" used to cull gun shy dogs by taking them out back and shooting them it would stand to reason that you should have been culled after 15 yrs of undie training.
You say "the lady has no say on what you bring into the house", I say that means it isn't her house!!
You say "a man needs to act like a man, especially if he is raising sons". I say that it takes sooo much more then acting.
You may think that your old ways of living the "Dominant Male" role were good and honest and that I don't know what you are talking about but I do. My Dad was a military "lifer" 24yrs. It made me an Army Brat for the first 17 yrs of my life. Your ways and his ways are long gone, you wouldn't stand a chance raising kids these days. That lady you married sounds like the only one that could save your sorry butt
!!! God Bless Her, Lord help you.

You know I don't recall that the divorce rate has dropped, or that the kids get in less trouble, or that men and women are a lot happier since we old timers with our slovenly way of live have started disappearing. All of our new and better culture and advanced education has made some changes of course,like more people wanting government hand outs, wanting the government to feed and care for their kids during the year and do it with out laying a hand or a cross word on them, and so much less child abuse today along with less drug problems since we decided kids shouldn't be allowed to work all summer or have their little behinds spanked when they misbehave.

Yep our sorry way of living is disappearing rapidly and the world is becoming a utopia. Look around and you can see the wonderful results of our old fashioned ways disappearing, not only in our home towns with their gangs and drugs, but in our government as well. Hasn't CHANGE just been wonderful! So say goodbye and good riddance to our sorry butts and say hello to new health care, new energy sources, new government owned banks and auto industry, as well as your social security surplus and better schools. Isn't progess wonderful! Especially when you have such a large selections of jobs that easily allow you to pay your bills and buy a home. Sure lucky we ever found a husband or wife that could put up with our sorry butts.


Ezzy

[Ryman Gun Dog]

Ezzy,
Did not mean to turn the thread into a generational "bleep" kicking contest, however I do hope the Quailrunner and his generation of men like the woman dominant divorce world they have created, cause in mine and your generation there were a heck of a lot less divorces. The best thing these young men can due today is get a premarital
agreement before they marry, cause if they don't 90% of the time, their wife will eventually become their mother, or they will be divorced. I love my wife dearly but I know there is as much Eve in her, as the original. One more thing, we will see if Quailrunner stays married for 30 plus years with his new less dominant ways.

RGD/Dave

[Chukar12]

...So changing behaviors requires an analysis of where the dog is today, a vision for what you want in the future, a strategy, tactics and metrics for improvement. I suppose in that respect dogs, generations and nations are the same. Thank goodness for the hope in a brand new day.

[ACooper]

Range in hunting dogs = no undies, divorce laws, generational conflict...

The best post yet!

[Ryman Gun Dog]

Gentlemen,
All this from a Range thread!

[BigShooter]

Howie,

Where are you when we need you man, we're talkin' "range" here. Since you live on the "range" you are the resident expert.

[ezzy333]

Howie,

Where are you when I need you man, we're talkin' "range" here. Since you live on the "range" you are the resident expert.

You are wrong Mark, we are talking garbage but need to get back to something about dogs.

To tell you the truth I don't think a dog knows a thing about range. Some are built and have the disposition to run more and others would rather just go slow. And in both cases the dogs will travel as far as their normal speed and thoroughness of hunting allows them to go. Consequently, most large heavy coated dogs tend to hunt slower and closer while most smaller but longlegged, shortcoated dogs will hunt faster and get further away. And the range just doesn't figure into their heads as all they are thinking is finding a bird and they do it in the method that they are physically as well as mentally predisposed to do.

Ezzy

[BigShooter]

Al,
After some of these yahoos have made the umpteenth post about their dog(s), its perfect range, certain breeds are just the best ever, they know more about the flaws of breeds they've never owned than the guys that own dogs of those breeds, if you ever hunt _______ (insert your bird of choice) it's a crime to hunt with anything else & my way of hunting with my dog is better than the way you hunt with your dog. I just want to puke.

We all get it .... some of you posters love your dogs & how they hunt for you. Woopee ding.

[live4point]

Why is that when you have a discussion about range in pointing dogs it's always the big running dog people that get put off?

[quailrunner]

RGD, No my dad isn't still with us, as you probably know most lifers of your generation don't live 10 yrs. after retirement. He retired 10/31/78 and past on 10/8/88 at the ripe old age of 52. Alcoholism wasn't what got him though, unlike the majority of the others. I believe it was the result of having to get the series of rabies (prevention) shots. We were out checking our coyote, bobcat and fox traps, and while I was checking my trap at this particular spot, I heard yelling and screaming coming from his general area. I ran over and found that he had his knee on a coyotes chest, one hand in his mouth, and the other hand trying to pry open the mouth. Well, I cracked the coyote on the head and we got my dad loose.
We sent the head in to be tested for rabies, and the Hospital lost the head, so that meant the series of rabies shots had to be started. A little over a year later, he was diagnosed with a brain tumor. He came to my wedding 6 days after the biopsy with his head still in bandages. That was in July of '87 and he lived for another 15 months after that.
My wife's father was a veteran of WW2, A purple heart recipient and a survivor of the Baton Death March. He was shot twice, and had all his teeth knocked out except for one by the butt of a jap rifle.
My wife is one of seven kids, 6 of them being girls. I am 1 of 5, the middle son, of 3 boys and 2 girls.
You say that my generation is responsible for the drugs, gangs, divorce rate, and such. I think you should realize that it is your generation that started the mess. I look around at my brothers and sisters, friends, and in-laws, and I see a lot of men that have absolutely no parenting skills, a lot of ladies too, but they do know how to drink, and say "what's in it for me". One thing being an Army brat taught me was the ability to adapt. We moved around so much that I had too. So, When I saw what other people's marriages were like and how "my generation" were raising their kids, I adapted, I threw away the ingrained methods of parenting, stopped having the frig. loaded with Beer, picked a career that allowed me to work from home, and elevated my wife's status from second class citizen too full fledged partner.
24 years later and we are still happily married, we have 4 great kids that are always top of their class, are asked by the church and their schools to mentor other kids, and most important of all have absolutely no alcohol or drug problems.
So, for this all to relate to the topic of this thread I'll say this. A close working dog allows the hunter to train his dog better. The hunter is there to correct the behavior of the dog before it gets out of hand. A close working dog allows the hunter to observe and enjoy the dogs work. The close working dog loves to work and live near the hunter. A big running dog usually goes through extreme disciplinary training, they work so far away that the hunter usually has no idea what they are doing. Usually the hunter is daydreaming, and hoping that he will get to see the big runner more often, all the while wondering why it turned out this way.

[AzDoggin]

Why is that when you have a discussion about range in pointing dogs it's always the big running dog people that get put off?

I doubt if it's all of the "big running dog people" , but there are some individuals who do seem a little sensitive. One of them said he's even getting sick over this discussion (said it "makes him want to puke.") Wow. This must be a pretty big deal to him.

[Ruffshooter]

Quail runner: "A big running dog usually goes through extreme disciplinary training, "
:roll: :roll: :roll:

[ezzy333]

Get this back on topic or we close it. We are supposed to be talking about our dogs and not about how much more masculine, intelligent, or nice you are compared to others. As we ll know, there is no one recipe for our lives or for feeding and training our dogs. Your opinion is welcome and so is everyone else's and then lets move on.

Ezzy