range in hunting dogs

[Birddogz]

Frankly, if you have access to good bird areas in ND, even in the toughest years you can fill your bag by 10 am with a pretty average gun dog. If you don't have access to areas holding birds in the toughest years, it won't matter how good the dog is that you put on the ground because it can't find what's not there.

I agree, but in my experience the best bird dogs come from places like ND. You simply aren't going to make a great wild bird dog hunting in Ohio. That is what many on this forum don't seem to understand.

[SHORTFAT]

Birddogz... I'm certain that you are more knowledgeable than I am about all things bird dogish. I am just new to pointing dogs myself. but... and no offense, but I think you are arguing apples and oranges here. I respectfully disagree that you cannot make a good wild bird dog in the east. Western pheasant and eastern woodland grouse are two very different types of hunting and two very different types of work for the dogs. I think sometimes on these forums people get locked into "my way where I live in best no matter what." I know nothing about hunting pheasants in the Dakotas... nothing... but I can put you on some grouse here that will not hold on a dogs point for very long... long enough to get a shot if you don't have to hump 300yrds, and it depends on the foliage too. My only point is... apples and oranges, and both preferences are right for their strengths. But I'd betcha a doughnut that i can find a good dog from the east on GROUSE... 'course, he might just curl up and whimper lookin at endless rolling prairie and runnin' birds!.. just like a dog that's used to going for miles out west would not be as efficient in multifloral rose... not right or wrong, just different. JMHO...

[Ryman Gun Dog]

Birddogz,
We train wild bird dogs here in Pa all the time, they come from all over the country and are of many different breeds. In fact my entire business is because of these
Grouse dogs. Maybe you are talking about different kinds of wild bird dogs, big running Quail dogs, dogs used to hunt Chukar or wild Pheasants, but out east here in Pa and up thru New England we hunt wild Grouse most all the time. Sure we have men who own dogs that hunt mostly the regulated shooting Grounds for released birds,
but actually most of them, when they have time, hunt Grouse also.
RGD/Dave

[Birddogz]

Birddogz... I'm certain that you are more knowledgeable than I am about all things bird dogish. I am just new to pointing dogs myself. but... and no offense, but I think you are arguing apples and oranges here. I respectfully disagree that you cannot make a good wild bird dog in the east. Western pheasant and eastern woodland grouse are two very different types of hunting and two very different types of work for the dogs. I think sometimes on these forums people get locked into "my way where I live in best no matter what." I know nothing about hunting pheasants in the Dakotas... nothing... but I can put you on some grouse here that will not hold on a dogs point for very long... long enough to get a shot if you don't have to hump 300yrds, and it depends on the foliage too. My only point is... apples and oranges, and both preferences are right for their strengths. But I'd betcha a doughnut that i can find a good dog from the east on GROUSE... 'course, he might just curl up and whimper lookin at endless rolling prairie and runnin' birds!.. just like a dog that's used to going for miles out west would not be as efficient in multifloral rose... not right or wrong, just different. JMHO...

I grew up hunting grouse in Ohio. I lived in Wisconsin for 4 years, and hunted there for over 10. I have grouse hunted a ton, and love it every bit as much as prairie hunting! I mentioned Ohio, because the decline of grouse in Ohio has been awful. In the 80s 30-35 flush days were common. You can hunt for a week and not get that many flushes now. My point was that Ohio simply doesn't have enough wild bird opportunities for a dog to reach its true potential. I wasn't lumping the entire East together. Maine, NY, PA, NH, VT, etc. have ample birds for dogs. I'm just saying that living where you can access birds in a mile or two from your house is the single biggest factor in whether the dog will achieve its genetic potential. This is just my opinion.

[SHORTFAT]

Good point. But would you agree that someone in say Wisconsin, or Maine, or some woodland mountain grouse nirvona could train a short ranging dog to it's fullest potential, capeable of finding a bird that doesn't sleep late? IE... not having to "trip over it between it's paws"? my point being, especially since you have experience in both types of hunting, that they are very different. As an inside issue to this question, I have an EP pup... big wheels... but I'm trying to get her to at least sniff in my zip code. by doing that, am I ruining her? or just limiting her skills?.. or just training a dog to my own preference?

[Ryman Gun Dog]

Birddogz,
Here we don't need to go a mile away from home to have wild birds, we have Grouse and Woodcock in the front and back yard during different times of the years.
I know what you are talking about when it comes to Ohio Grouse and its crash. I know men from Ohio who hunt wild Grouse from Erie to Potter County, Pa however and beleive me those birds are plenty wild. Its true here in the north east we have few Quail and Chukar dogs, who are not used primarily for FT type games. Grouse hunting here is big time however.
RGD/Dave

Our Property in Tioga where are pups learn to point wild Grouse as they play in the Grouse woods.



Heston our new Ryman pup finding and pointing his 1st wild Grouse 35 yards away from our outing pavilion.

[Birddogz]

Good point. But would you agree that someone in say Wisconsin, or Maine, or some woodland mountain grouse nirvona could train a short ranging dog to it's fullest potential, capeable of finding a bird that doesn't sleep late? IE... not having to "trip over it between it's paws"? my point being, especially since you have experience in both types of hunting, that they are very different. As an inside issue to this question, I have an EP pup... big wheels... but I'm trying to get her to at least sniff in my zip code. by doing that, am I ruining her? or just limiting her skills?.. or just training a dog to my own preference?

ShortFat,
I think any dog on wild birds will have the opportunity to reach its potential. I am actually in favor of closer working dogs. I want my dogs at 100 and in on phez and ruffs, and no more than say 3-400 yards on sharpies. 200 being about right for me. Are you hunting your EP primarily on Ruffs? When you say big wheels, how big? A good bird dog will learn to stay close in thicker cover, but bigger running dogs usually will always have the tendency to range further when given the opportunity. If I were you, I would NOT get rid of my dog. EPs are bird finding machnes. Let this dog bond with you and your family. Bring him inside. If you have the means, purchase an Astro gps collar. This will put you at ease while hunting your dog, and allow you to locate your dog while on point without a beeper or bell. It also will allow you to mark your truck, and where you jump birds.

[Birddogz]

Birddogz,
Here we don't need to go a mile away from home to have wild birds, we have Grouse and Woodcock in the front and back yard during different times of the years.
I know what you are talking about when it comes to Ohio Grouse and its crash. I know men from Ohio who hunt wild Grouse from Erie to Potter County, Pa however and beleive me those birds are plenty wild. Its true here in the north east we have few Quail and Chukar dogs, who are not used primarily for FT type games. Grouse hunting here is big time however.
RGD/Dave

Our Property in Tioga where are pups learn to point wild Grouse as they play in the Grouse woods.



Heston our new Ryman pup finding and pointing his 1st wild Grouse 35 yards away from our outing pavilion.

[JKP]

My girls will point sharptail from 15-70 yds depending on conditions..and anywhere from 50-400 yds away from me. To date, the number of coveys that have sat tight while I walked more than 200 yds I can count on one hand. Maybe I'm not getting out there early enough when all the juvenile birds are still "dumb"...but in central ND, those sentinels can see you from a mile away... the shooting is mainly on a holdback if you're lucky.

I think our discussion raises "hackles" because there is always the unspoken but clearly understood contention by some owners of "horizon cruisers" that somehow the rest of us are hunting with 2nd and 3rd class dogs. But I can't legally put more in the freezer and I'm trying to think how that can be.

[SHORTFAT]

Birddogz, She's in the house now. (& on the couch...) We've made big improvements on her range and checking in. Two days ago I never had to correct her at all, and in fact she turned with me and for the first time the tail didn't wag the dog so to speak... She paid attention to where I was going and worked in front of me at 20 to 50 yards for the most part. I like what I se in her so far, but we've got LOTS of work to do... I have noticed that when we hit a gas line or power line in the woods she will move out. But it hasn't been a problem yet.

[V-John]

I think our discussion raises "hackles" because there is always the unspoken but clearly understood contention by some owners of "horizon cruisers" that somehow the rest of us are hunting with 2nd and 3rd class dogs. But I can't legally put more in the freezer and I'm trying to think how that can be.

I'm not sure that I agree with this, with the alternative opinion being that FT dogs are just run-offs that can't be used to hunt for the gun.

(And that has been said on this thread before...)

In either case, as long as YOUR dog makes YOU happy, who cares?

[tn red]

Frankly, if you have access to good bird areas in ND, even in the toughest years you can fill your bag by 10 am with a pretty average gun dog. If you don't have access to areas holding birds in the toughest years, it won't matter how good the dog is that you put on the ground because it can't find what's not there.

I agree, but in my experience the best bird dogs come from places like ND. You simply aren't going to make a great wild bird dog hunting in Ohio. That is what many on this forum don't seem to understand.

This could be the most arragant thing i've ever heard said.Wild birds are really vital but i beleive a real test of a dog is one that will find & handle birds no matter how many birds are there & i know it means more to me if my dog only points 4 birds a day & handles them than finds 50 & handles 75% of them well but thats just me i like dog work not birds.I truely beleive folks in Cal or Del can turn out top notch wild bird dogs this statement has nothing to do with range & very little to do with dog training unless you think all it takes is a bunch of birds to make a great dog.

[Ryman Gun Dog]

JKP,
Again we go back to different dogs and what work they have been repetatively bred to do, what you want a particular dog to hunt like, might be different than some other hunter. If you purchase a big running Texas Quail dog and fight the hunting imprint the entire time you are training the dog, for hunting the deep Grouse woods, it does seem foolish to people who have Grouse hunted behind dogs, who were bred for generations to do that kind of work. However with todays e-collars it is done all the time, its not necessarly wrong if the owner likes owning an animal that hunts in this manner, and must be disciplined into conforming to what that hunter wants to accomplish. Again one dog was bred to independently hunt covering a large area, the other was bred as a companion Grouse dog, a few very very good dogs handle both jobs quite well, but these animals are the exception to the rule, not the average hunting dog.
RGD/Dave

[Mountaineer]

... I mentioned Ohio, because the decline of grouse in Ohio has been awful. In the 80s 30-35 flush days were common. You can hunt for a week and not get that many flushes now. My point was that Ohio simply doesn't have enough wild bird opportunities for a dog to reach its true potential. I wasn't lumping the entire East together. Maine, NY, PA, NH, VT, etc. have ample birds for dogs. I'm just saying that living where you can access birds in a mile or two from your house is the single biggest factor in whether the dog will achieve its genetic potential. This is just my opinion.

And a correct opinion it is.
Having hunted Ohio since '64', the odds of developing a grouse dog here today are zip....unless one travels.
Actually, I stopped hunting Ohio 2 years ago for fear of finding a ruffed grouse.

Success with a birddog, apart from competition, is only dependent upon what one personally values and is satisfied with in a birddog.
My field-type setter out of Super Chunk will work where the birds are....close in the U.P. or out-a-ways in Kansas.
He will also make mistakes near and far...so do I.
We hunt together...quite happily at any distance.
Can't say I have ever arrived back at the truck unhappy to the extent of wanting to kick an imprint.
Basically, you hear......genetic imprints, companion, master, etc comments.....you are hearing marketing and someone wishing to kickstart an ego or a customer base.
In a Birddog, buy what you like to look at and what makes you grin.
That will come in all shapes and sizes.

Wish the birddogs had a voice on a BB...those comments would tell the truest story.

[Chukar12]

I am amazed that we can have a discussion where people are using yardage as a benchmark for anything...whether that be breeding or purpose (field trial/hunting). Range in a dog has many factors but the most critical in a well bred, well trained, confident animal should be cover and likely objectives. These are products of the geography and game pursued. IMO this best understood and described in this forum by pro trainers or f/t judges and handlers. Most hunters I know have handled 2-6 field dogs in their entire life and are far too impatient expecting maturity and perfection well before a dog is ready. Further, they exacerbate the behavior and source of their frustration by losing their temper and attempting to extract result via compulsion on a weakly or completely misunderstood command.

A dog that has been check corded into direction change through tons of association and repetition and been allowed to mature and generalize that behavior in multiple covers will probably satisfy their owner anywhere in the long term... But if you drop 18 month old Rex on the ground on the grouse opener without yard work and tune up and start shocking him into submission and you will get what you pay for...it really won't matter what breed or breeding he is.

[Wagonmaster]

I am amazed that we can have a discussion where people are using yardage as a benchmark for anything...whether that be breeding or purpose (field trial/hunting). Range in a dog has many factors but the most critical in a well bred, well trained, confident animal should be cover and likely objectives. These are products of the geography and game pursued. IMO this best understood and described in this forum by pro trainers or f/t judges and handlers. Most hunters I know have handled 2-6 field dogs in their entire life and are far too impatient expecting maturity and perfection well before a dog is ready. Further, they exacerbate the behavior and source of their frustration by losing their temper and attempting to extract result via compulsion on a weakly or completely misunderstood command.

A dog that has been check corded into direction change through tons of association and repetition and been allowed to mature and generalize that behavior in multiple covers will probably satisfy their owner anywhere in the long term... But if you drop 18 month old Rex on the ground on the grouse opener without yard work and tune up and start shocking him into submission and you will get what you pay for...it really won't matter what breed or breeding he is.

\

Amen. Just amazing to me how many people, mostly guy type people, think that training with a temper is the way to go. Have seen lots of stupid things, like shooting a dog with birdshot to try to break it. Invariably, it is because they did not do their homework with the dog, didn't have or use a method to train it to the point where it knew what was expected of it, but thought the best thing was to just blow up at it. Great way to ruin any dog.

[Birddogz]

Frankly, if you have access to good bird areas in ND, even in the toughest years you can fill your bag by 10 am with a pretty average gun dog. If you don't have access to areas holding birds in the toughest years, it won't matter how good the dog is that you put on the ground because it can't find what's not there.

I agree, but in my experience the best bird dogs come from places like ND. You simply aren't going to make a great wild bird dog hunting in Ohio. That is what many on this forum don't seem to understand.

This could be the most arragant thing i've ever heard said.Wild birds are really vital but i beleive a real test of a dog is one that will find & handle birds no matter how many birds are there & i know it means more to me if my dog only points 4 birds a day & handles them than finds 50 & handles 75% of them well but thats just me i like dog work not birds.I truely beleive folks in Cal or Del can turn out top notch wild bird dogs this statement has nothing to do with range & very little to do with dog training unless you think all it takes is a bunch of birds to make a great dog.

Arrogant? That is just fact. I have talked to many, many bird dog trainers, and they all say the same thing. The more birds the better the development of the dog. Just like shooting baskets. If you tell a kid "Hey, you are only allowed to shoot 20 free throws, and practice dribbling drills for 20 minutes." he isn't going to be as good as the kid who is allowed to practice all the time. They could be identical twins, and the one that practices more will be better. I didn't think that my comment was out of line. In fact, it was such an obvious statement, that I never thought anyone would debate it. I guess I was wrong.
As far as handling, I demand that my dogs handle birds well. I don't know why you insinuate that I would rather get my dogs into birds, and not care how they handle? I have never said that, and would never have it that way.
What I am saying is why not have a dog that gets into lots and lots of birds and handles well. Wouldn't that be ideal. People in Maryland, Georgia, etc. will never be able to raise as good of wild bird dogs as people in states with large bird populations, unless they travel or send their dogs to a trainer who does. Why on Earth do I run into people from those places in ND,SD,MT,NE,KS? Because they have to, in order to get dog work. Not saying those are the only states that have wild birds, mind you.

[SHORTFAT]

:roll: So much for the Henry Kissenger approach to discussing dog range... Birddogz... again, I respectfully disagree. I'm sure you didn't intentionally offend, but the remark is offensive none the less. it may be easier to put your dogs on more birds, but that doesn't necessarily mean they are better. Different training methods and EFFORT make a big difference. It is possible that a dog that has birds climbing all over it doesn't HAVE to develop the needed skills to find close lying covered birds... I AM NOT SAYING YOURS DOESN'T. I'm just saying that such a broad statement that we cannot develop dogs as good as yours in not accurate or fair. You referred to sports, so I'll make that analogy... just call me "Rudy"... If you ever took part in organized sports, surely you saw the God given gift of talent wasted on a turd who excelled in spite of his lazyness... just like we've all seen the less talented kid work his butt off to succeed. Breeding, time, patience and effort can build a bird dog anywhere. But i think, most offensive, was the point that close working dogs have less skill in the ol sniffer. My late great lab Ruffy could smell a grouse on my mind! And he worked his waggin tail off in the thick stuff. His nose had nothing to do with where he lived... and I don't think the range a dog is trained to work at does either... that's all I'm sayin... no offense.

[Birddogz]

:roll: So much for the Henry Kissenger approach to discussing dog range... Birddogz... again, I respectfully disagree. I'm sure you didn't intentionally offend, but the remark is offensive none the less. it may be easier to put your dogs on more birds, but that doesn't necessarily mean they are better. Different training methods and EFFORT make a big difference. It is possible that a dog that has birds climbing all over it doesn't HAVE to develop the needed skills to find close lying covered birds... I AM NOT SAYING YOURS DOESN'T. I'm just saying that such a broad statement that we cannot develop dogs as good as yours in not accurate or fair. You referred to sports, so I'll make that analogy... just call me "Rudy"... If you ever took part in organized sports, surely you saw the God given gift of talent wasted on a turd who excelled in spite of his lazyness... just like we've all seen the less talented kid work his butt off to succeed. Breeding, time, patience and effort can build a bird dog anywhere. But i think, most offensive, was the point that close working dogs have less skill in the ol sniffer. My late great lab Ruffy could smell a grouse on my mind! And he worked his waggin tail off in the thick stuff. His nose had nothing to do with where he lived... and I don't think the range a dog is trained to work at does either... that's all I'm sayin... no offense.

Shortfat,
What? I love close working dogs. Where do you see that I think close working dogs have worse noses. I have never said that, nor do I believe it. I usually get attacked because of my closer working dogs. What I am saying is if you take dogs with IDENTICAL genes and one lives in Maryland, and the other lives in say ND, the one in ND will develop more quickly, and thoroughly due to bird exposure. Not rocket science guys.

[SHORTFAT]

My apologies Birddogz... it was an earlier post from Wagonmaster... page 16 or something like that... something about short ranging dogs only finding birds between their front paws... This thread is getting long in the tooth...

[Birddogz]

I actually could make the argument that a big running dog's nose may be inferior since they run past more birds.

[Chukar12]

Birddogz I am sure no one reading this forum is mistaking these opinions as rocket science. That being said, are you suggesting that if the Tracy family, the Smith family, Hickox, Holman, et al. Had a dog in Maryland and Birdogz has one in the Dakotas the one in the Dakotas will develop either faster or better? And what is better to what standard is your comprehensive metric?

[Birddogz]

I'm talking about a scientificly run experiment. Dependent variable- performance of the dog Independent variable- geography of the dog. Constants-trainer, genetics of dog, time being trained, food of the dog, the dogs environment. RUn an experiment with this crtiteria and the result will be that the dog that lives where the population of birds is highest will be best. That is my hypothesis.

[Chukar12]

Shortfat, I still hate calling you that. Often labs or V dogs are marked as having inferior scenting ability as they have a propensity to sniff the ground rather than relying on body scent in a scent cone in the air. I am working with a pointing lab now for a guy that just gets too close to wild birds because it hasn't yet figured out how to work the scent cone.

[SHORTFAT]

Birddogz,
Yes you could... but I would think someone would have issue with that as well. I think there are advantages and disadvantages in both, but I don't think the nose is an issue in either. A Lotus car isn't as fast as a Ferrari... but it corners better... My point is, I think much of a dogs usefullness in woods or prairie is developed with training started with good breeding. I get the whole "but we have more birds to find" thing... it's true and it makes it easier for training... I just disagree that a great, and I mean great dog can't be developed in the eastern woodlands on fewer birds... just like I disagree with the notion that a short range dog has a short range nose... now, to be fair to Wagonmaster, I re-read his post, and he has a valid point that some guys are happy with a dog that trips on a couple of birds a year... but that's a different subject I think... Then we'd be talking about the problems on the dummy end of the leash!!! And let's face it... that's where most of the dogs shortcommings develop!

[SHORTFAT]

Birddogz,
I think you may be right if all other variables are controlled except the bird population... BUT... enter the RUDY factor... (Rudy was the guy in the Notre Dame football movie) I'm just saying a great dog CAN be developed. I'm sure we can also find morons in both regions who just buy a shock collar and whack the bejeezus out of a poor dog who has no idea what he wants... just like we can find that mystical guy who teaches his dog to speak the latin name of every bird it points! Obviously the availabiltiy of more birds helps with the training... I've had frustrating birdless days afield myself... pup just thinks we went fer a walk... but that doesn't mean that with time and effort she won't be a fantastic dog. (if she can overcome the problems on the dummy end of the leash! )

And Chukar 12... you can call me Dan then... (but i am...)

[Chukar12]

A theory or experiment without practical wide spread application is just fodder for argument. Dakota bird dogs are not better than New York bird dogs when they are in New York

[Birddogz]

I never said NY. How about Rhode Island bird dogs as compared to the identical dog living, and being trained in the Dakotas. I can't believe this is an argument. My point is simply this......Identical dogs and training. One dog is exposed to a ton of birds. The other is exposed to very few. The one with more exposure will be the better bird dog. He can't help but be. To argue with me you would have to have the opinion that wild bird exposure has no effect on wild bird dog performance. I don't think anyone is that crazy, but I could be wrong.

[Chukar12]

No one is arguing that more or wild birds isn't better. Only that it is inflamatory, insensitive and myopic to say that dogs in one region are better than dogs in another. There are people that cannot accept differing points of view, they end up in the greatest number of disagreements and have trouble getting better at purt near anything. Do you ever wonder why some people on a forum are in a greater number of disagreements than others?

[adogslife]

It is impossible to train any dog exactly the way another dog was trained.

[adogslife]

To say one dog is better than another based on geography is showing one's lack of experience.

[Birddogz]

To say one dog is better than another based on geography is showing one's lack of experience.

I have two very good friends that trial dogs. They will both tell you that living in where there are lots of wild birds is the ultimate advantage. I have never said that geography was an issue, as far a regionally. States like Rhode Island aren't as good as say Montana. This is EASY to understand if you actually read what I say. I understand that Maine, Wisconsin, New Mexico, Texas, etc. all re great places to train. States with few birds, aren't. Period, end of story.

[BigShooter]

I actually could make the argument that a big running dog's nose may be inferior since they run past more birds.

IMO, that would be a fallacious argument based upon fictitious supposition, intended to be humorous but intentionally inflamatory.

[ezzy333]

If I'm teaching a dog to hunt, which in it self may be impossible, then I do not want lots of birds. If I am teaching a dog how to handle birds, which is what most of us do, them more experience is better, but I think even then you can have too many. The last thing I want with a young dog are birds so thick it doesn't have to hunt, and/or it gets confused by too much scent in the area. Moderation is a staple of lfe in practically evey perspective that we deal with. True in training, or to be more accurate, exposing a dog to birds. A good dog has never had to be trained to hunt. Our concept of training is what do we need to do to get the dog to hunt in the manner we like. Do to that goal, there will never be a single answer as to what, how, who, or where is the best.

Ezzy

[Wagonmaster]

Birddogz wrote:
I actually could make the argument that a big running dog's nose may be inferior since they run past more birds.

IMO, that would be a fallacious argument based upon fictitious supposition, intended to be humorous but intentionally inflamatory.

Oh, heck, I have seen big running dogs that run past birds. Range is not any guarantee of nose, nose is or it isn't. As I have said, though, have seen an awful lot of those "close range dogs" with close range noses, but that is not true of all of them.

My perception, and this is just my own view, is that nose in part causes range. What I see in young dogs in particular, is that dogs that start finding birds early and often, get really "bird happy." Then they want to find more so they run bigger and they are just having a heck of a time doing it. Often, there is a period between about 6 months of age and a couple of years of age, when these dogs can be a real handful and you have to have a sense of humor. But if they are doing it because they love getting into birds, that is what you want, and you can train that dog to please you in any kind of hunting.

It is nose and bird desire that leads the good ones to range. Some dogs are going to be limited by physiology in how much bigger they run and for how long, but it is their nose that takes them to the limits of their physiology.

There are also some dogs that just run for the sake of running, those are the dogs that run past birds, they do when they are young and they will always.

And there are dogs that never run. Their noses and hearts just never lead them to it.

[Hotpepper]

John always geets it so right, and again he hit it the nail on the head.

Jerry

[JKP]

Wagonmaster,
Can't argue with your suppositions, but I suspect the range a dog is willing to go has a lot to do with temperament as well. Some dogs want to know where you are more often than others. Vdogs IMO are more dependent...they are bred to be that way...they also tend to be a bit bigger and when you're talking 50 lbs instead of 70, that can make a difference. The idea that shorter running dogs have less nose doesn't hold water.
My big black beast is an average 200 yd dog with a 20-70 yd nose and she has proven it on sharpies more than once. I also live in NJ and spend maybe 3 weeks/yr on average in ND....so how could my dogs possibly develop when they see mere hundreds instead of thousands of birds. After reading this discussion, I am in a quandary myself.

Maybe because I am spending too much time in the duckblind....could be the rabbits/hare I am shooting...maybe its too much time on the flats shooting brant.....or in the corn stubble on geese. I should ignore all of that so I can have the bird dogs all of you have

[BigShooter]

I actually could make the argument that a big running dog's nose may be inferior since they run past more birds.

Unfortunately Wagonmaster you missed the key term in the phrase. There is a long history of posts in this thread containing glittering generalities including terms like they, all & best.

Our concept of training is what do we need to do to get the dog to hunt in the manner we like. Do to that goal, there will never be a single answer as to what, how, who, or where is the best.

[BigShooter]

Vdogs IMO are more dependent...they are bred to be that way...they also tend to be a bit bigger and when you're talking 50 lbs instead of 70, that can make a difference.

I won't argue the point but it draws us back to the nature vs nuture discussion. Try raising a dog without teaching it to "come", always keeping your mouth shut when you let it loose. Let it grow up running free on substantial acreage, learning to self-hunt ... then show me the amount of inherited dependence.

[JKP]

I won't argue the point but it draws us back to the nature vs nuture discussion. Try raising a dog without teaching it to "come", always keeping your mouth shut when you let it loose. Let it grow up running free on substantial acreage, learning to self-hunt ... then show me the amount of inherited dependence.

Extreme...but point well taken. Can I feed it? do I house it? just wondering?

Vdogs bring the curse of having to satisfy all the obedience disciplines as well as the independent work. Get too heavy handed too fast, and you can lose a lot of what the dog might have become. You can do it but its how its done.

Headed out west.....y'all'd be better off to shut down the computer and go there too!!!

[Wagonmaster]

Wagonmaster,
Can't argue with your suppositions, but I suspect the range a dog is willing to go has a lot to do with temperament as well. Some dogs want to know where you are more often than others. Vdogs IMO are more dependent...they are bred to be that way...they also tend to be a bit bigger and when you're talking 50 lbs instead of 70, that can make a difference. The idea that shorter running dogs have less nose doesn't hold water.
My big black beast is an average 200 yd dog with a 20-70 yd nose and she has proven it on sharpies more than once. I also live in NJ and spend maybe 3 weeks/yr on average in ND....so how could my dogs possibly develop when they see mere hundreds instead of thousands of birds. After reading this discussion, I am in a quandary myself.

Maybe because I am spending too much time in the duckblind....could be the rabbits/hare I am shooting...maybe its too much time on the flats shooting brant.....or in the corn stubble on geese. I should ignore all of that so I can have the bird dogs all of you have

I don't remember knocking your dog or suggesting it does not have a nose, I don't know your dog and therefore can't comment on it. I guess I don't know where we got into counting hundreds vs. thousands of wild birds. That would seem to me to be a hypertechnical distinction. A dog that gets on hundreds of wild birds when it is young is going to have the chance to develop into a good dog. I am not much on rabbit/hare shooting. We used to shoot lots of ducks and geese but not so much anymore, we just find the upland bird hunting is alot more enjoyable. It always has been for me, just took some time and good dogs for my family to come around. I still shoot a goose or two every year, but don't like the taste much, nor the sitting still in the cold waiting for them, nor the getting up at 3 a.m. to set up the decoys and a layout blind. I have about 200 full bodied snow goose decoys and another two or three hundred of various other types, you wanna buy some? Don''t use them much now.

I have not observed that Vdogs are more dependent by nature. Generally, I have observed that they are more heavily obedience trained and therefore reluctant to get too far from the owner, or the owner is reluctant to let them get too far before coming down on them. Is that dependent? I have also observed alot of "points" that are more obedience than point. There is quite a difference. I don't know, maybe you have seen that too.

[adogslife]

I have not observed that Vdogs are more dependent by nature. Generally, I have observed that they are more heavily obedience trained and therefore reluctant to get too far from the owner, or the owner is reluctant to let them get too far before coming down on them. Is that dependent? I have also observed alot of "points" that are more obedience than point. There is quite a difference. I don't know, maybe you have seen that too.

Do you own GSPs? Aren't they VDogs?

How many VDogs do you see while running field trials? Your circle of friends must be wide for you to see many field trial AND VDogs in action. Do you run in VDog tests?

[Greg Jennings]

Different people hunt different birds in different places, hunt in different ways and like different kinds of dogs.

Telling people that what they like to do is in any way lesser is, IMHO, impractical at best and, well, we just won't go into the worst.

Shutting this one down. Move on.