What are the differences between the setters?

[Hondo]

I've been a member of the forum since May when my family and I welcomed our first family dog a female yellow lab. Since then I have spent more hours than I care to admit on this forum reading, learning, researching, and asking questions about countless gun dog topics. My lab is now 7 months old and she is coming along.

However, I'm already researching for my next bird dog which I would like to be a pointing breed. I've been looking at all types of breeds except the setters. For some reason they didn't appeal to me. Until I saw Dave's picture on another thread of his 3 setters together. That pic got me researching setters and the more I have read the more I have liked. When time comes to actually get my new dog it may or many not be a setter but I now have a greater respect and appreciation for setters.

Hondo

[Hondo]

I'm hoping that the setter experts can comment on what the major differnces are between the English, Gordon, Irish, and Red & White setters? Is a red setter the same as an Irish setter?

Is it just the color of the coat? I realize the difference between field and show? My questions in particular are geared for the field breed setter since I would like to hunt with them.

Is there one kind of setter that you would want in a particular instance or hunting situation?

-Hondo

[shanebevel@gmail.com]

Hey Hondo. An English Setter will give you more lines to choose from since they are still bred heavily for hunting. Finding an Irish Setter that is a hunter will be harder. And finding a Gordon Setter or Red and White will be even harder. Not that any of them are impossible. There are still good lines out.

The classic setter (IMO) is a walking man's dog, but there are certainly lots of big ranging trial dogs. If you want a more classic look out of a setter (bigger, more heavily ticked) like the orange belton in that photo you will want to look north and east in general. The uber classic lines (dual champion lines) are like DeCoverly, Old Hemlock, Ryman. They are great grouse and woodcock dogs although plenty of people use them to hunt phez and quail with them too. But if you are south and west or west in general you may want to look to some of the field style or even field trial lines of smaller, lighter, faster dogs that will work with much longer range.

The RW, Gordon and Irish don't seem to vary as much in appearance/build although there are not as many hunting lines out there.

[solon]

There is a great deal of diversity among the setters. If you want a hunting Irish Setter, then it is a no brainer that you would go with the Red Setter. It is more true to the Type of the traditional Irish Setter and has a documented record of performance. Red Setter history is well described at this site:

http://www.nrsftc.com/

Keep in mind that these Red Setters are trialed in horseback stakes, although the Fazenbakers are running some dogs in cover dog stakes this year. There are some nice field bred Gordons out there, but they are not anywhere near as common as field bred English Setters of various types. The thing to do is go see some of the various type setters and see what you like, then do your research and find one. Also keep in mind that hunting a pointing dog with your lab on the ground at the same time introduces some new dimensions to the training of both. Good luck.

[mcbosco]

I would stick to an ES or Gordon, the others, while lovely, are a crapshoot.

[lvrgsp]

While my Grandfather was a great Setter afficianado, I never took to them quite like he did, although a good one is good one, now in saying that, I have seen very few Irish reds and was not impressed with any of them, not knockin them as birddogs but a few other things I did not care for.
Not sure where your located or the type of hunting you do, but the north east and mid atlantic regions have some really good coverdog type setters, I have seen some really nice stuff out of the Grouse Ridge line, and Berg Brothers running in some midwest walking trials. Have trialed and hunted with some nice setters out of some old Tomoka and Tricky D!ck Jim stuff, that at one time and maybe still is was very popular with the NSTRA guys. If I was looking for a Gordon there a few guys on this forum I would definatley get a hold of, I think they both my be up in the Minnesota, Montana, Idaho area......
I think one of them is Wyndancer, he has one of the best looking gordons I have seen IMO.....
To me the setters have a great diversity you can pretty easily find one to suit your needs....

Good luck

[tommyboy72]

Used to be a guy over by me that bred and raised some real nice Red Setters. His name is Tim Hidalgo and he may be able to tell you where to get a nice Red Setter if that is where you are looking. He is no longer a breeder but went for the real money of simply training dogs for doctors, lawyers, and other check writers but his dogs were really nice. Keep in mind that the Red Setters have some field bred ES bred into them. It was sanctioned and was done to bring back the hunting lines. Before I went to pointers I used to love Setters. I still have an English Setter out of real nice bloodlines and I have owned an Irish Setter in the past. If you want to find some good dogs look to Bill Faust in Warsaw, NC. That is where I got my old setter. She is 9 years old now and even though she has slowed down she never bumps a bird. Her pedigree is in my signature if you care to look.

[Ryman Gun Dog]

Hondo,
Thank you sir for the very nice compliment on my Setters. In reality all are nice dogs to own and hunt with. In our Grouse dog kennel the reqiurements are very a high and although some people think the differences in the dogs are small, the dogs do differ and sometimes greatly depending on how they were bred and by whom.
The differeces are not just in color, as you see in the picture the sizes of the animals can differ quite a bit. The personallity of the different breeds also differs somewhat.
My male and female Gordon Setters are more active in my home/Kennel than my Ryman ES, my female Gordon also has a mild Guard instinct which my Ryman dogs do not.
My Male Gordon is a happy go lucky goof, always playing and having a good time, especially in the water. The Red Setter was a washout, he was very hiper, very nippy and caused great trouble with repetative fighting in my home/kennel. Another of my clients had a dog from the exact same breeder and the dog had a similar personallity and problems. However the Red Setter would be a good kennel dog and he did hunt well. Until the breed is refined further I will not own another, they just do not fit into my home/kennel. The pure Irish Setter dogs here in the USA have some problems, most are not fine hunting animals, although there are a couple kennels still producing good hunting dogs, getting one is fairly hard. Futher inside each different breed the dogs differ also, there is a difference between the Ryman Grouse dog and the FT type Setter, the Ryman Dual Setter is a breed standard gun dog, bred as a companion Grouse hunting dog right here in Pa. The FT type Setter bred by Sam Light and others, does not usually meet breed standard and is bred to independently hunt. Although most are not hyper, they are definitely not as layed back as the Ryman Setter dogs. The Gordon dogs differ Greatly also, Norm Sorby has several different families in his home kennel that he sells for differing prices and the dogs do differ. Further the Gordon dogs brought in from Scotland are different in both size and speed and they have more of the Ryman type layed back personality. This by no means covers all the differences or similarities.
Hondo I hope this helps you a might, and once again thanks for the nice words about my dogs.
RGD/Dave

[PntrRookie]

The line between "Irish" and "Red" gets blurred quite often...even between setter folks. Go to the Berg Bros. red setter page to see some excellent field bred setters. http://www.settersunlimited.com/repeat. ... 1&b=14&c=6. Setters Unlimited is a great site to poke around and see some of the top ES (and Red Setter) breeders. http://www.settersunlimited.com/index.aspx. That does not even skim the top of the Coverdog setters from the east coast. Here are some references for you for some great breeders/kennels (in alphabetical order so no one gets their undies in a bundle over favoritism)

http://www.champaignenglishsetters.com/
http://www.dalecreekgundogs.com/index.html
http://firesidesetters.com/index.html
http://www.grousefeatherkennel.com/
http://www.grouseridgesetters.com/
http://grouseriverkennels.com/
http://www.longgonesetters.com/
http://www.northwoodsbirddogs.com/
http://www.shadyhillskennels.com/
http://www.skydancekennels.com/home.htm
http://www.tekoamountainsetters.com/
http://www.waymakersetters.com/

That will give you a start...there are a TON more...

[big steve46]

I like Llewellin Setters which are English Setters that are derived from certain lines only. However, any well bred E. or L. Setter is fine with me. We Llewellin setter people have a national club, and we conduct trials as well as provide general support and advice for owners. I just happen to be the membership chairman.

[PntrRookie]

The FT type Setter...does not usually meet breed standard and is bred to independently hunt.

Please expand ... I find that to be an statement holding little to no proof. Exposure and bonding have much more to do with independent hunting (in ANY breed) than the breeding.

[mcbosco]

The FT type Setter...does not usually meet breed standard and is bred to independently hunt.

Please expand ... I find that to be an statement holding little to no proof. Exposure and bonding have much more to do with independent hunting (in ANY breed) than the breeding.

That is a reasonable statement, especially from an Eastern perspective. There are always exceptions but I don't think anyone from New England, New York, Pa or even NJ would argue much with that.

[Ryman Gun Dog]

PntrRookie,
Its very simple, most Ft type Setters do not meet breed Standard in size, most not all, are usually smaller in height, weight and over all length. In reality they should have been eliminated from any competition that demaded breed standard compliance.
There is a also a genetic difference, if not the Llew people would not be so picky about how they trace their dog linage. Also if it was only the way the dog was raised and trained that made the difference between the dogs, the Ryman Setter would cover the field in the same manner Sam Lights FT dogs did. Sam was one of the FT breeders who really knew the differences in the dogs, he raised and trained his FT dogs, but hunted behind a Ryman Grouse Dog. There is a big difference in the animals.
RGD/Dave

[PntrRookie]

Ryman...I do not disagree that the field ES are all over the board when it comes to confirmation. I do not question that at all. I do question your statement that they are bred to be independent hunters. "the Ryman Setter would cover the field in the same manner Sam Lights FT dogs did." Now that has to do with range and yes the Rymans have a different range, but I bet you could find a few independent hunters with them as well.

That is a reasonable statement...

Which one, that they are bred to be independent hunters? Or that exposure and bonding play more into that? I too know there are exceptions to every rule, but to say Field bred ES are bred to be independent hunters (hunt for themselves) is too much of a blanket statement. There would be a lot of kennels out of business if they did that. We as hunters and trialers like a setter that is bold, stays to the front (be that 50 yards or 250) and handles nicely. And of course is eye pleasing while doing it.

[mcbosco]

Both are reasonable. You might not be familiar with the dogs many people here in the East grew up with. Old foot hunting lines of ES's were very dependent, hunter/people-centric dogs. They were also very substantial animals, 25-27 inches tall and as much as 75 -85lbs for a male. Long flowing coat generally. They were also very social and mellow dogs.

There are excpetions both ways, but the original post is reasonable.

[Ryman Gun Dog]

PntrRookie,
If you have never owned a Ryman type Setter, I know that its hard to understand the differences in the the dogs, its not range we are talking about, my Ryman dogs hunts big, however they were bred to work with me, not as an independent hunter such as Sam Lights FT dogs. Unless you have owned a Ryman Setter and a FT type dog at the same time, its hard to understand exactly what I am trying to describe. The dogs are vastly different when hunting with a companion foot hunter, especially in the Grouse woods. I have owned both animals, even both at the same time, there is a great deal of difference in the animals genetic hunting imprint. One was repetatively bred to Grouse hunt with his foot hunting master, the other was repetatively bred to independently find birds for playing Ft games. The repetative breeding was for different uses. True many Ft type dogs are used today to hunt with, especially with the developement of the e-collar, that easily controls the independent FT type dog so it can actually be hunted with. Remove the E-collars from both animals, hunt with them both in the Grouse woods, and see why Sam Light Grouse hunted with a Ryman dog, and raised his Ft type dogs for his FT competitions. It goes back to the difference in refined breeding for specific usage. The developed hunting imprint was vastly different.

RGD/Dave

[Gordon Guy]

I've owned a few English setters at the same time I've had Gordons. I know nothing of the other setters. In my experiences my ES's both got car sick and were more independent in the field, getting lost every now and then. I've had 15 or so Gordon's and several litters in the last 21/22 years and none have been car sick and I've never lost one in the field, (Knock on wood) or I should say one has never lost me. IMO They (Gordon's) are not as independent, to use a field trial term they "Ho-Ho" a bit, which for a bird hunter is not as negative as it would be for a field trialer. Both breeds pointed birds and were good companions in the house. The ES's had a bit more point, but also had more false points. When one of my Gordon's point there is usually a bird there. My Gordon's could handle the cold better, but generally don't tolerate the heat as well, I've heard conditioning is the key to better heat tolerance.

In my opinion Gordon's look better by the fireplace, bar none!

[dan v]

Hondo,

The facts are as such. If you're looking for a hunting setter, the largest genepool of hunting bred setters will be found in field bred ES. That's coming from somebody that has Gordon's. When you start looking at the other setters, well, the homework is gonna really start.

As you do the research, you'll quickly find that certain kennels keep popping up...no matter the color of setter.

And set aside the notion that field bred setters don't meet the standard, it's just drivel for those that romanticize....the standard that you want your dog to be judged by is performance.

Surely there are fans of the Irish Red & White, but from the limited number that I see, I just don't see the talent that is found in the other setters. Maybe on the east coast things are different, but not in the upper midwest.

So, do the homework. Identify a couple of breeders that produce the type of dog you're looking for, chat with them and see if you get the warm fuzzies. Then, put a deposit down.

We have people call. They're interested in the current litter. We tell them, "If you're interested send a deposit, it will hold your place in the que." For the most part people do, but once and a while some must think it's a marketing thing. So they'll call back in a month and inquire again. Then they are all, "Well, I really wanted one, and maybe if I pay a premium, you could bump somebody?" Yeah, no...you don't get one now.

[Ryman Gun Dog]

Hondo,
WynDancer only give part of the story about this supposid romantic breed standard, standards also assure that form follows function, the other part of the story is the health guarantee that comes with the different kinds of animals, this is big time important. Most field bred Setters come with little or short time health guarantees, HD and other problems litter the Ft ES type dogs.
Few if any of these FT breeders give 10 year written Guarantees, Ryman dogs usually come with such guarantees, including Companion hunting ability. I have had to destroy 4 FT type ES Setters in my life time, every time I talk about purchasing another one of these animals, my wife reacts very unfavorably because she understands how it effects our family, if I am required to destroy the animal. Most times the FT type Breeders do not repetatively health test their animals, some have started however. HD tests, Deafness test, Eye test and such all cost big money today, none of this is very romantic for sure, it does however assure the perspective owner that he
will have his dog either replaced or money returned for a minimum of 10 years if the dog developes health problems.
Please give me the romance and the Guarantee.
RGD/Dave

[mcbosco]

I didn't understand the "romance" comment either. If people were breeding 20" black and tan dogs and calling them Gordons, I am sure all the Gordon guys would speak up. Dan, you have some lovely classic hunting dogs. I hope other breeders operate the way you do and keep that breed looking that way.

[Gordon Guy]

If people were breeding 20" black and tan dogs and calling them Gordons, I am sure all the Gordon guys would speak up.

I don't think they would speak up, not the field people anyway. "You tend your garden and I'll tend mine" maybe not the exact words quoted by some, if not many, in the Gordon world, but I'm sure you get the drift.

And Dan seems to be on the front burner in developing a Gordon that can compete with the "big dogs" and moving the Gordon into a different light, in my opinion status quo is not what Dan's dogs are about. That Avatar dog of his is not your typical Gordon.

[Ryman Gun Dog]

Guy,
I agree, the dog in his Avatar picture looks very much like a breed standard dog to me. But the 20" comment holds true in the ES Ft world.
RGD/Dave

[Birddogz]

If you are looking for an Irish setter, contact Jim Keller in Nebraska. He has the best in the country, and really knows his setters. Unreal dogs, I have seen them in person.

[Ryman Gun Dog]

Birddogz,
Please give me the full info for Jim Keller, I may need to contact him sometime, I have heard his dogs mentioned before, but have no Kennel Phone or contact info for him.
Thanks
RGD/Dave

[Birddogz]

Jim Keller- 402-794-4022 Jim is a real character. Really knows his Irish Setters though. He would be glad to chat, I'm sure.

[PntrRookie]

Please give me the romance and the Guarantee.

Dave you are correct in stating I do not own both dogs. If one continues to breed for Romance and Guarantees you will be right in line at the show ring. You need the balance and by putting fire into some of those bellies only helps breed up. Serious question...what % of the ENTIRE hunting dog setter world puts a 10 year guarantee on their pups? 5-10% if that? It is NOT the norm by any means. So by chasing a guarantee will limit your options.

And set aside the notion that field bred setters don't meet the standard, it's just drivel for those that romanticize....the standard that you want your dog to be judged by is performance. Very well put.

[Ryman Gun Dog]

Birddogz,
Does Jim Keller have a web sight?

PntRookie,
If I could make the money George Ryman did I would judge peoples ES dogs as he did all his life, no doubt about it.
As for the percentage of ES breeders who have 10 year guarantees on their animals, you made my point for me, I indicated this before, for a dog to get into my Grouse dog kennel the requirement are very high. The dog must preform at a very high level in the Grouse woods as a companion Grouse dog, have the proper guarantees from the breeder, and be a fine biddable animal. If this is Romance I am 100% guilty.
As far as the drivel statement goes all owners whos dogs fail to meet breed standard talk in this manner, to defend their usually under or over sized dogs.
RGD/Dave

[mcbosco]

"If one continues to breed for Romance and Guarantees you will be right in line at the show ring"

Perhaps, but there are many dual champion dogs out there, particulary Britts, proving you can have your cake and eat it too. Even on a large scale.

[Grange]

What's a companion grouse dog? What traits or characteristics make a companion grouse dog?

Maintain contstant contact or just check in?
Going with the hunter?
Retrieve a down bird?
No need for an e-collar to hunt?
House dog when not hunting?

When deciding if a dog is a companion grouse dog is:

staying to the front important?
range at all important?
ground coverage pattern a factor?
ground coverage speed a factor?

[PntrRookie]

Perhaps, but there are many dual champion dogs out there, particulary Britts, proving you can have your cake and eat it too. Even on a large scale.

That is a great topic for another thread - DC's. You are right the Brits (and GSPs) have done a great job on both sides, but this is a setter thread and I do not think the same could be said for the entire setter breed (ES, R&W, Irish, etc.). I think that goes back to the topic of this thread...What are the differences between the setters?...There is a greater divide between the hunt and the show setters.

[Birddogz]

Birddogz,
Does Jim Keller have a web sight?

PntRookie,
If I could make the money George Ryman did I would judge peoples ES dogs as he did all his life, no doubt about it.
As for the percentage of ES breeders who have 10 year guarantees on their animals, you made my point for me, I indicated this before, for a dog to get into my Grouse dog kennel the requirement are very high. The dog must preform at a very high level in the Grouse woods as a companion Grouse dog, have the proper guarantees from the breeder, and be a fine biddable animal. If this is Romance I am 100% guilty.
As far as the drivel statement goes all owners whos dogs fail to meet breed standard talk in this manner, to defend their usually under or over sized dogs.
RGD/Dave

http://www.kellergundogs.com/about_us.html

[shags]

1. Decide on the breed and type within the breed that appeals to you.
2. Delineate the kind of hunting you enjoy most.
3. Visit some of the gazillions of breeders' websites to narrow down sources of dogs that will suit you.
4. Talk to several established breeders and be very clear about what you want. Visit them. Watch their dogs work.
5. Choose your pup.

Easy peasy

There are good working dogs in all the setter breeds; 'working' being a relative term as to what would suit you. Not all 'breed standard' dogs are poor hunters, nor are they all good hunters. Same with 'field trial' lines. Every dog within each breed is different. I've seen 23 pound field-bred setters hunt like slugs, and gi-normous hairy Gordons haul some mail. Same with Red Setters and Irish Setters. Just do your homework and go to a breeder that produces the kind of dog you desire.

Good luck in your search.

[Hondo]

I live in Northern Calfornia and primarily hunt pheasant, chukar, and quail. The dog would be hunting in California, Nevada, and Arizona with occassional hunts in Idaho, Montana, Wyoming when visiting family. The 2 breeds that I would choose from are the English/llewellin Setter or the Gordon Setter.

I have 4 kids ten and younger, so I would want the breed/line that is best with the kids. The dog should also be a great house dog with a calm demeanor.

I want the dog to perform in the field and be a beautiful dog as well. For me looks and performance are important. However, it doesn't mean that I want a show dog.

--For the Gordon Setter I would love to have one that looks like Wyndancer's avatar picture. If that dog hunts as good as it looks I would be in heaven.

-Hondo

[Mountaineer]

The difference?...looks, speed of hunt, gait, size, hair, imagined traditions and laid-back or amped-up personalities are a few.
All the setters will provide game and be a partner providing grins and grimaces on an owner's face.
Ignore the marketing and the hype of the biased and obviously ignorant...no setter type has a lock on ruffed grouse hunting or any gamebird.

Sounds like a dual-type setter would be for you...not a sometime show dog, just one with a noble head and the manner/personality you desire.
I would suggest Setters West...or Old Hemlocks should you be able to get on the list.
I've seen examples of both at home and in the field....good dogs.
Understand tho that nothing can be guaranteed with a live critter....only indicated.

Many others breeders are around.
Look carefully, consider well and avoid the BS.
You will have the lad or lass for awhile....some buy too quickly for the image or ego, then break a dog's heart and foist them, good dog they will be, onto someone else.
Don't be one of those bums.

[mcbosco]

http://www.octobersetters.com/

good place to start

[Ryman Gun Dog]

Hondo,
It seems you have a great interest in Gordon Setters, Sure Thing Kennels in Montana has some fine Gordon Setters you may want to check them out.
Dan Thomason produces some fine Gordon Setter dogs that handle Grouse and other birds very well. If you want to look at a Ryman English Setter type dog,
October Setters was recommended and another fine kennel that produces very good Grouse dogs is Fireside Kennels in VT. Lynn Dee produces some very fine Ryman Grouse dogs in fact we think so much of her stock that our latest pup is from her Fireside Kennel.
RGD/Dave

Ripper our Norm Sorby bred Gordon, from where Dan Thomason aquired his foundaton Gordon stock.



Heston our latest Ryman pup



12 week old Heston, pointing his 1st wild Grouse on our property in Potter/Tioga, Pa.

[lvrgsp]

May give Warren a call at Pinecoble, pretty sure he has a waiting list.....
It is my understanding that his dogs are some of the more athletic of the older Ryman/Hemlock type dogs.........
http://www.pinecoble.com

Gordon Guy has a litter of pups I believe right now, somewhat close in Idaho may give him a call as well......
http://www.gundogforum.com/forum/viewto ... 58&t=25009
Good looking dogs too....
I see your in N. California, might be best to find someone more local and spend a few days with them and the dogs to get a good idea as to what your wanting.

Good luck

[big steve46]

www.yeryar.com for great Llewellin pups at a reasonable cost.

[Ryman Gun Dog]

lvrGSP,
You are correct sir, Pinecoble has some fine Ryman dogs also, some of the Grouse Hunters here in our mountains love and own Warrens dogs. The Pinecoble dogs we have seen in the Grouse woods get the job done quite well. I believe his pups start about $1,200 which today is about normal, for a pup from a proven Grouse dog line. Make no mistake about it Warren has a proven Ryman Grouse dog line. I do not know what type of Guarantee he places on his dogs however, it might pay to look into his guarantee at time of deposit. I do have to say this, because Ken is gone from DeCoverly and DeCoverly has many different Ryman family animals, Warrens dogs at Pine Coble, might be a lot easier to pick from. I do believe Warren has a more refined Grouse dog line at this point, and it might be easier to acquire the exact style of Ryman Grouse dog you might like. There is something to be said for a small refined kennel, breeding very high quality gun dogs, especially today. There is also another small refined breeding program that is producing outstanding Ryman dogs, Nudrap Kennels, in WI.
http://www.pardunscanoerental.com/id5.html
The Grouse hanging on the tree & setting on the porch steps, show his breeding program is refined and working.
RGD/Dave

[dan v]

I live in Northern Calfornia and primarily hunt pheasant, chukar, and quail. The dog would be hunting in California, Nevada, and Arizona with occassional hunts in Idaho, Montana, Wyoming when visiting family. The 2 breeds that I would choose from are the English/llewellin Setter or the Gordon Setter.

I have 4 kids ten and younger, so I would want the breed/line that is best with the kids. The dog should also be a great house dog with a calm demeanor.

I want the dog to perform in the field and be a beautiful dog as well. For me looks and performance are important. However, it doesn't mean that I want a show dog.

--For the Gordon Setter I would love to have one that looks like Wyndancer's avatar picture. If that dog hunts as good as it looks I would be in heaven.

-Hondo

Hondo,

Trena Cardwell in Kittitas Washington has a 5-6 month old female by the avatar dog. She held back 3 females, which might have been all the females, and has decided to move one of the girls on.

The dam is FC Tomar's Whistling Dixie, owned by Charlotte Roberts. Dixie was bred by Anne Boyd.

You can get Trena's phone off the website http://www.chukarhillkennel.com . Don't email, she can't retrieve her email unless she goes to town.