Derby age in AF?

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hi-tailyn
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Derby age in AF?

Post by hi-tailyn » Mon Sep 20, 2010 5:02 pm

I have a GSP with a Nov.birth date. She turns 2 this coming Nov. Found out she is too old to run in AF in their derby stakes. Yet if she was born Jan. 1st she could run till she was 2 1/2.

Do I have this right? If so, I see why it is the thing to Red Shirt your litter birth dates. :evil: It makes me think twice about having a summer/fall litter. :twisted: They would be Jan litters.

With the dual sanction trials starting up, I knew that the Jan. litter had the advantage of running till 2 1/2. But I always thought the July-Dec dog could run till Dec. 31 as a derby. If I read it right they can only run till June 31. Thus not allowing the 1 1/2 yr old to compete in the derby. But the 2 1/2 yr old can. :twisted:

Is there a actual reason for keeping the spring and fall derby age groups completely separate? If not going by actual birth dates, it certainly brings in the reason to Lie about their birthrates. :twisted:

I know the juv. stakes really aren't that important in the big scheme of things in the dogs competitive life. But why short the dog for his birth date.

Any help understanding this. I guess it has been this way since the beginning of time.

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Re: Derby age in AF?

Post by Sharon » Mon Sep 20, 2010 6:16 pm

For the present spring season (January 1-June 30, 2010), dogs to compete in Puppy Stakes must have been whelped on or after January 1, 2009; for the second half of the season (July 1-December 31, 2010), dogs competing in Puppy Stakes must have been whelped on or after June 1, 2009.

Dogs eligible to compete in Derby stakes this season (spring 2010) must have been whelped on or after January 1, 2008.

You have it right. That's why some breeders make sure pups are born in January. It takes a special skill. :roll:

Someone older them me will tell you why this is the case.
Last edited by Sharon on Mon Sep 20, 2010 6:21 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Derby age in AF?

Post by PntrRookie » Mon Sep 20, 2010 6:21 pm

Scott...here is a link to a colored chart we put together for that http://www.12oclockftc.com/images/trialdogagechart.pdf You pretty much nailed most of it. Remember, the dog does not know how old he/she is and they have a lifetime to run as a shooting dog/AA. IMO we put too much emphasis on the derbies. Once ya get a derby placement (qualify them), focus on getting them broke!

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Re: Derby age in AF?

Post by hi-tailyn » Mon Sep 20, 2010 6:39 pm

Thanks for the color chart. It actually helps understand the wording of the rules.

Is there a actual reason for keeping these two groups completely separate. Why not have some overlap and allow both groups to run till 2?
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Re: Derby age in AF?

Post by original mngsp » Mon Sep 20, 2010 8:50 pm

http://www.12oclockftc.com/images/trialdogagechart.pdf

Cool and useful chart. Thanks for creating and sharing

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Re: Derby age in AF?

Post by PntrRookie » Tue Sep 21, 2010 6:39 am

hi-tailyn wrote:... allow both groups to run till 2?
Correct me if I am wrong, but I believe AKC goes by a flat birth date - i.e. you can run a derby until they are 2 - type of scenario. I understand we are talking AF, but there is a difference between venues.

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Re: Derby age in AF?

Post by hi-tailyn » Tue Sep 21, 2010 8:49 am

AKC does go by their age. They can run derby till they turn 2.

I like running broke dogs in AF shooting dog stakes. But the actual b-day for derby that AKC uses, just makes since to me.

Is there a reason that AF has adopted the spring, fall litter b-day separation and not just their actual b-day? Just curious as to how and why this system was developed.
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Re: Derby age in AF?

Post by BigShooter » Tue Sep 21, 2010 9:14 am

I already posted about derbies in another thread. My understanding for the NGSPA is a club can now run AF or dual sanctioned hour trials for the adult contests. At the same trial they could run an AKC sanctioned derby stake as long as the premium is advertised that way ahead of time. The derbies are kind of a fun run at AF trials. With many folks seeking AKC points toward an FC the above scenario makes some sense to me. It'd also be a way to expose folks to AF that have only run in AKC. JMO
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Re: Derby age in AF?

Post by ElhewPointer » Tue Sep 21, 2010 11:09 am

I would disagree that derbies are a "fun run" at AF trials. It is taken quite serious. The birthdays set up the way they are is primarly set up for futurity purposes. There are spring and fall futurities, that would be why there are two dates within the year. When some of these derbys are being sold for over $25K is would say AF takes it serious. And there you have the reason for redshirting dogs. MONEY!!!

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Re: Derby age in AF?

Post by BigShooter » Tue Sep 21, 2010 11:29 am

EP,

Can you tell me about how many derby entries they would get at an NGSPA hour championship compared with the number of entries in each of the adult stakes and is it a lot different in the AF pointer trials?
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Re: Derby age in AF?

Post by ElhewPointer » Tue Sep 21, 2010 11:34 am

I couldn't tell you anything about shorthair trials as far as numbers of entries. I judged the derby portion of the Chicken Championship for the NGSPA and there were 16 dogs. I would say in pointer trials it is different from trial to trial. I've seen as low as 10 and seen as many as 35ish. Depends on how many broke dogs are in the Championship.

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Re: Derby age in AF?

Post by BigShooter » Tue Sep 21, 2010 11:42 am

I was just wondering if I should have been more careful to be clear my remarks were aimed at the NGSPA Championships and wondered if it was a lot more serious deal to the pointer folks, that all.
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Re: Derby age in AF?

Post by PntrRookie » Tue Sep 21, 2010 12:13 pm

BigShooter wrote:...wondered if it was a lot more serious deal to the pointer folks, that all.
I would think your assumption is correct. Like Vegas said, there are big time derby trials and championships, not to mention the futurities that the AF folk take VERY seriously. The upcoming Open Prairie Chicken CH has nearly 50 open and over 30 derby entries.

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Re: Derby age in AF?

Post by Wagonmaster » Tue Sep 21, 2010 1:52 pm

The AF Derby age was modeled after the system used for race horses.

Pointer derbies are a different deal. The same "magic" that has pups being born on Jan. 1, also has them born to a dam whose litter is whelped in 2012, so they can run in 2014 as broke derbies.

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Re: Derby age in AF?

Post by ElhewPointer » Tue Sep 21, 2010 3:29 pm

The nice thing about horses is that they come into heat every 21 days, so you can control when you'll have a colt.

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Re: Derby age in AF?

Post by Wagonmaster » Tue Sep 21, 2010 3:43 pm

The nice thing about horses is that they come into heat every 21 days, so you can control when you'll have a colt.
True. :lol:

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Re: Derby age in AF?

Post by Duane M » Tue Sep 21, 2010 6:43 pm

Wagonmaster wrote:The AF Derby age was modeled after the system used for race horses.

Pointer derbies are a different deal. The same "magic" that has pups being born on Jan. 1, also has them born to a dam whose litter is whelped in 2012, so they can run in 2014 as broke derbies.
Not to mention sired by dogs dead for 8 months that were never collected :wink: :lol:

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Re: Derby age in AF?

Post by Wagonmaster » Wed Sep 22, 2010 10:43 am

You know, some of that reshirting may go on in the pointer breed, and those who know and love the breed chuckle about it, it has been around since the dawn of time with dogs of all kinds. But one thing about pointers is that they are truly great dogs as a breed, and there isn't any "breeding to pointers" and falsifying the paper work, in the name of improving the breed, cause they are already pointers.

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Re: Derby age in AF?

Post by PntrRookie » Wed Sep 22, 2010 11:23 am

Good point John :) I was just reading a book with my daughter that touched on the horse "birthdate" setup. Whenever a horse is born through out the year it's competition birthdate is the NEXT Jan. 1. So if Horse A is born April 23, 2010, it's competition birthdate is Jan 1, 2011. Or if Horse B is born January 23, 2010, it's competition birthdate is Jan 1, 2011. Is that correct?

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Re: Derby age in AF?

Post by ElhewPointer » Wed Sep 22, 2010 11:34 am

Youre right, therefore it is nice to be born as early in the year as possible, just like our dogs. The big difference is, that you can't "hide" a horse breeding. Everything is documented, even the stud fee. When you're at the track, looking at the program you can find out the sire, dam, where they were bred, where the colt foaled and how much the stud fee was. I wish it was like this in our game. There would be a lot less BS when it came to price of pups, stud fees and birthdays.

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Re: Derby age in AF?

Post by tn red » Wed Sep 22, 2010 7:28 pm

PntrRookie wrote:Good point John :) I was just reading a book with my daughter that touched on the horse "birthdate" setup. Whenever a horse is born through out the year it's competition birthdate is the NEXT Jan. 1. So if Horse A is born April 23, 2010, it's competition birthdate is Jan 1, 2011. Or if Horse B is born January 23, 2010, it's competition birthdate is Jan 1, 2011. Is that correct?
Throughbreds birth date are Jan 1st no matter when they are foaled during that year ie born June 10 2010 birth date is 01-01-10
Walking horses use the actual faoling date unless born after Oct. 1st then they are considered hold over colts ie born 10-05-10 will not show as a two year old till 01-01-13

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Re: Derby age in AF?

Post by Wagonmaster » Wed Sep 22, 2010 8:02 pm

Race horses. I don't know how they age show horses, probably different.

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Re: Derby age in AF?

Post by PntrRookie » Wed Sep 22, 2010 8:19 pm

tn red wrote:Throughbreds birth date are Jan 1st no matter when they are foaled during that year ie born June 10 2010 birth date is 01-01-10
Thx for the clarification.

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Re: Derby age in AF?

Post by hi-tailyn » Fri Sep 24, 2010 2:27 pm

If looking at the color chart. The Nov. litter can't run in the fall because they are too old. But If I lied about their b-date and said it a was June litter, Making them actually older by 5 months, they could run in the fall. :roll: Looks like a reason not to reg. a litter in the fall. All would be spring litters on record.
No wonder all the false b-days in Jan. :wink:
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Re: Derby age in AF?

Post by PntrRookie » Fri Sep 24, 2010 2:40 pm

hi-tailyn wrote:If looking at the color chart. The Nov. litter can't run in the fall because they are too old.
If I understand it correctly if Dog A is born anytime June 1 thru Dec. 31, 2010 it can run as a derby until July 1, 2012 Basically 1.5 - 2 years.
If that pup is born Jan. 1 thru June 1, 2010 it can run as a derby until July 1, 2012. Basically 2 - 2.5 years.

So yes a early fall litter can be way behind the eight ball. It could be a shooting Dog (AA) within a year and a half whereas some derbys can keep running until they are 2 and a half.

I may have just confused myself :lol: My head aches...

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Re: Derby age in AF?

Post by ElhewPointer » Fri Sep 24, 2010 3:11 pm

In your example the first dog would be able to run as a derby until Dec. 31 2012.

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Re: Derby age in AF?

Post by PntrRookie » Fri Sep 24, 2010 6:01 pm


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Re: Derby age in AF?

Post by hi-tailyn » Sat Sep 25, 2010 12:50 pm

ElhewPointer wrote:In your example the first dog would be able to run as a derby until Dec. 31 2012.
I was told that my Nov. '08 dog was too old to run this fall. She won't be 2 till this Nov. '10. According to chart, if this dog was made a May '08 date she could still run this fall.
Am I wrong on this? :roll:
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Re: Derby age in AF?

Post by ElhewPointer » Mon Sep 27, 2010 8:10 am

In AF, there are two dates to be born. Jan. 1 and July 1. No matter which one you are born in, you get a full season to compete as a puppy and as a derby. This may be confusing because our seasons aren't calander seasons. Our trial season is from Aug. to May.

It is a big advantage to be born in Jan. because you basically have 5 free months over a pup born in June. And the same goes for a July pup over a Dec. pup.

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Re: Derby age in AF?

Post by hi-tailyn » Tue Sep 28, 2010 4:08 pm

ElhewPointer wrote:No matter which one you are born in, you get a full season to compete as a puppy and as a derby.
So were they wrong in not letting my Nov.'08 dog run in derby last week?
I'm still confused, which is easy.
Will just haft to have Jan. pups from now on.
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